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Thread: Archive through August 11, 2004 |
    
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1737
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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Uh-oh, we've got Kegger's beefcake pics at the top of this thread. Bond is archived. I am tempted to bring them back. Anyone second that...? |
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Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 211
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 05:05 pm: |
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LOL!! This is going to be a hard thread to take until we get another archive....maybe we should start Another Discovery thread? At least I've still got my Dourdan and Clooney pics and, JohnA, has his beloved Alma.
Kegger, did you set the archive point on this thread? ;-) |
Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 844
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:39 pm: |
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ALLRIGHT ME AND THE BOYS ARE HANGIN OUT!
man i still dig that pic of me , all georgeish!
whoo that use to really get the ladies, then i discovered beer!
and iv'e , well , changed a little. |
Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 845
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:40 pm: |
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Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 846
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:42 pm: |
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so which me is better!
80's keg!
or 2000 keg! |
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 214
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:56 pm: |
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2000 keg is definitely hotter! :-) Thanks, Kegger! |
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 215
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 08:38 pm: |
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JohnA, you might be right...Mahler does have a big head...in this photo, his head seems a little disproportionate to his neck and shoulders:
http://sfsymphony.org/templates/composer.asp?nodeid=179&callid=22&strchar=M |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1742
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 03:19 am: |
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Ghia,
She ain't "my" beloved Alma. Argh, what a thought. It was the ladies playing the stringed instruments that caught my eye.
That is a nice web site, composer entries courtesy of The Grove Dictionary. I've always thought I could live happily in San Franciso, given a suitable income. I never knew Britten and Shostakovich qualified a members of the "Second Viennese School". I have no idea what that means, actually. As I said, this thread is an education.
Kegger,
I recommend the Atkins Diet. Follow Ghia's link, and see what it did for Mahler. |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:01 am: |
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Well, that does it! As "they" say dowan heah in my part of the country: "Ah gives!" Meaning that I've found so much of interest here on your forums that I may just have to register and become legit. (huh?) Maybe the pictures did it? Anyway, I'm going to add my name to this illustrious listing - and hope to be able to add an occasional spark or three to your scintillating wit(s) - Thank y'all - oops - you all! (snicker) |
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New member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 1
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:10 am: |
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OK, chaps - guess I'm now registered. So - Larry R becomes WRYTER. Hope to chat with you often. |
Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 847
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:12 am: |
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so larry yu lika du pics aye! |
Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 848
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:14 am: |
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very tastee!
SPIN DE WHEEL OF FISH! |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 268
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:42 pm: |
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For the most part, I agree with what has been said in the previous posts about Mahler's first six symphonies, with one major exception. No. 6 does not leave me with a "buoyed up" feeling. The ending is a complete downer. The slow movement that precedes it is one of the loveliest that Mahler composed. But that mood is completely shattered by the final, violent movement that has three seemingly triumphant crescendos that are ultimately crushed by "hammer blows" (Mahler's description). The symphony ends in defeat.
Death is always present in Mahler's music, even in his early works. The man suffered the death of loved ones from an early age. He lost several younger siblings including his favorite brother. There is one anecdote Alma told of walking into a room where Mahler was staging a wake for himself. He was lying on a bed like a corpse surrounded by lighted candles. And this was before the death of one his daughters, which occurred after he completed No. 6. Perhaps that particular loss gave greater weight to the following symphonies.
There's no question that Mahler was self-counscious about his music as John A points out. But Beethoven was as well. Listen to Op. 131. The man is grappling with his own mortality. He is looking into death's maw with despair (there is no other piece of music that expresses this despair more effectively). And there are humorous moments, along the lines of life-is-joke, amid this despair. There's a heroic march as he soldiers on (tinged with sarcasm?). And finally there is peace and crushing beauty in the work. (I can describe Mahler's music the same way.) How is Op. 131 not a self-conscious, introspective work? |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 17
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 02:18 pm: |
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Well, well! I seem to be in the presence of thinking, articulate folk - and I'm just not used to that! Two Cents, who and wherever you are - your posting has left me many things to think about, not the least of which was an earlier posting by my humble self re the Mahler symphonies. I SHOULD have said the symphonies "up to" the 6th leaving me with buoyed-up feelings. You are 100% correct - the end of the 6th is the beginning of a sea-change in Mahler's work - and generally where I let others do the listening for me! Well, not entirely true. . .
As to the Beethoven, I agree with you half-way, Two Cents - Beethoven was certainly introspective, but I'm not truly certain that "self-conscious" fits the man. Hav-tah tink about that awhile, please!
Oh, yes - I deeply appreciate all the inciteful postings I'm finding on these forums. They make my life a LOT more interesting! Thank you all. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 468
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:29 am: |
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Ghia, Two Cents, Kegger etc
Well I received and have listened to The Flaming Lips' "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" and I will rate it on the other thread shortly.
First, it's not me, however I like it - a lot. It is techo Beatles (and I hate techno music), shades of Pink Floyd and a bit of this and that, but it is obviously all Flaming Lips. It is not a recording I would listen to very often though I have to recommend it as the recording you must have (as Two Cents says) to show off your surround system. Actually, it is the recording to have in order to give others an excellent idea of hi-res surround capabilities. Sounds go in circles (not just from speaker to speaker), they pass you by, they go over you and they go through you. No - it's not natural! It's not a "you are there" or "they are here" type of thing. It's a deliberate mind trip type of thing! Musically, I think TFL's are not bad and I like surround videos also. Put it this way: it is fun and a worthwhile experience and it is definately the one to throw on when friends come around who know nothing about the hi-res surround formats.
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Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 851
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:39 am: |
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nice detailed description rantz.
i want it! |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 272
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 06:42 pm: |
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My Rantz,
Gotta admire your adventurous spirit! Your description of the surround sound effects of "Yoshimi" is spot on. It's a trip. It's worth listening to in different states of mind, so to speak. Perhaps the music will grow on you with a few more spins. I know it did for me. The music isn't exactly techno. It's mostly acoustic with a lot of electronic effects. Beck and The Flaming Lips toured together a couple of years ago and they obviously learned a lot from each other. From what I've read of Kegger's posts on the benefits of surround sound, it should be right up his alley.
Before there was multichannel DVD-A/SACD, The Flaming Lips released their own version of surround sound. It consisted of four separate CDs meant to be played simultaneously on four stereo systems--8 speakers arranged around the listener producing distinct sounds. With this kind of experimental spirit, it's no wonder that The Flaming Lips has produced one of the most aurally exciting surround sound discs out there. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 475
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:14 am: |
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2C
My wife admired my adventurous spirit also - her comments were "interesting, I'm not sure, incredible surround effects."
I guess you're right about it not being real techno, but for us it is alternative. I do like it and it is something very different. And I agree that Kegger will like it also - I'm sure!
The clips are good also. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1748
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 06:47 am: |
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2c,
"How is Op. 131 not a self-conscious, introspective work?". I was intrigued by that remark - thank you - and listened again (Talich Quartet).
To me, it is not self conscious, introspective; not at all. Every Beethoven quartet, including that one, just sort of cheers me up and makes me feel good about the world, but in a way that does not seem false, or artificial. The bottom line would be something like "This proves there are seriously good grounds for optimism".
The contrast between late Beethoven and late Mahler could not be greater, in my view. I suppose I am still down on romanticism, including musical hard-luck stories. "Look at me!; Look at me!" Suffering may be a spur to creativity but I don't, personally, resonate to appeals for sympathy, unless they are part of the plot (I think of Purcell's "Dido's lament" from "Dido and Aenius" and thousands of other things - NO, NOT THAT "DIDO").
A composer's job is to write music, not tell everyone what a tough life it is being a composer. He should pull himself together. If he doesn't like composing, there are lots of other useful jobs for good guys....
Don't you think Mahler's expecatations were a little, er, grandiose.....? That he took himself a bit too, like, seriously....? There was, at that time, some serious stuff happening which peasants like A family members had to go and sort out. I am not sure the problem was not caused, in the first place, by guys, like Mahler, but ones with more clout, thinking they had a right to change the world because of their unique and super-human gifts; "the masses" could sort out any mess, in the unlikely even of problems - they didn't count for anything, so it was not a problem, they were expendable, and would, in any case, be grateful for the chance to serve the supreme will of the ubermenschen.
Read Nitsche. If you can. What a total loser. Trouble is, he took so many others with him.
I guess I am simply and deep-dyed anti-romantic. I noticed your recommendation, 2c, for helping along appreciation of The Flaming Lips' "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots". I am not opposed to that, it is a free world, and a lot of the 19C romantics were on the same ride, but it is more or less the opposite of what I look for in music, and pretty well everything else. The world, and people, are far stranger than they appear to be at first sight. I get a buzz from try to make sense of things, not the reverse. Beethoven seems to help, somehow. Could be just more advanced self-delusion, of course, but I don't really think so. The more I think of it, the less likely that seems.
Sorry this must seem solemn and boring. I am out-genré-ed, here! I wrote a couple of months ago to 2c on another thread"
"Where else would I have heard of The Flaming Lips? Many thanks. I confess I didn't notice their hit "She don't use jelly". Now, I'll listen out especially for "Ego Tripping at the Gates of Hell".
See what I mean.....?! Are they not trying, just a bit too hard, to broadcast something about themselves....? Tut, tut what naughty boys they must be. I hope they register the disapproval they undoubtedly seek, and it cheers their day.
All the best.
(About me: boring old phart, but you knew that already) |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 34
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:43 am: |
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John A. - I can't believe it - I had just written a wonderful, perfect reply to you, and POOF, somehow it just disappeared! Sigh. At my advanced age, I don't have the strength to go through it all again - so - an outline.
First, I agree in part with Two cents: the Beethoven op. 131 is introspective, but not self-concscious, if he meant self-pity in his remarks.
As an obvious anti-Romantic music-lover, your bias shows, sir. But despite that, I wonder how you can listen to the 1st movement, Adagio non troppo, without a sense of introspection.
I nearly panicked, thinking that I'd given away any or all my CDs of 131, aka string quartet No. 14. Whew - finally found one copy - Philips 422 341-2, a marvelous disc by the Quarneri Quartet.
Sir, I must disagree with you on your introspection remarks - but agree with you that the Beethoven works do have an up-lifting quality.
Won't bore you further - we have a basic listening or preference disagreement. I only hope that this discussion has one out-flow: that more people on this forum discover Beethoven for themselves, and revel in his mastery!
Respectfully - LR |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1749
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |
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Larry,
I have lost many posts the same way. Sometimes I write off-line and then paste the text from a saved file, into the message window, but these can get too long. I also have a consistent track record of double posts.
As I said before, and you commented on it, I don't think there is much one can say about music, really, except technical things, and whether one likes it or not. If one tries to explain why, one ends up writing mostly about oneself. Yes, by disposition I am an anti-romantic, and always say, jokingly, it would have been a good idea to miss out the 19th century. It worries me that no-one learned. Nationalism and hero-worship still seem to breaking out everywhere. Beethoven was down on all that.
I would like nothing better than to discuss Beethoven Qts. I have a number of different versions. They all sound wonderful, to me.
As regards the "old dogs" topic, I have some stereo CDs which definitely sound good in matrixed surround. Not so, string quartets. That is where I revert to "stereo rules", though it could just be the recordings. I tried one of the Brilliant Classics Rubio Qt Shostakovich Qts. recently in NAD "EARS", thinking that, since it was recorded live, in church, it might sound convincing in surround. It was dire. I would still like to hear some high-resolution recordings, however. Probably the first in will be The Kronos Quartet, and they will be flying round the room, perhaps with their own arrangement of "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots". |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 274
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 02:18 pm: |
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John A.,
I appreciate your recent posts, especially Opus 1748. As usual, they are stimulating and lucid. Despite our obvious differences, I have no issue with your point-of-view and I don't wish to try to change it. I would, though, like to make a few points that may shed light on the topic.
Mahler was a man of his time. His contemporaries included Freud, whom he was acquainted with. It’s not surprising that Mahler’s music is more “psychological” (if I can use this word instead of “self-conscious” and “introspective”) than that of his predecessors. Mahler also believed the artist had the ability to sense the future. (Similarly, Ezra Pound called artists the antennae of the race.) And if you had a sense of what was coming in the 20th century, it's not surprising his music would be full of dread, thoughts of death, disorder, and wild mood swings. Also, his later symphonies reveal a waning of hope. There doesn't seem to be a God that can help us and uplift us. That's something that preceding composers always had. Around Mahler's time everything solid was beginning to melt into air, as Marx put it. His music reflected this condition. I personally don't consider it self-pity. He may have been attuned to the same thing another of his contemporaries, W.B. Yeats, knew. There is something akin to Mahler's music in the following Yeats poem:
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere annarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert.
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
(Another forbidden word: an*rchy) |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1756
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 03:21 pm: |
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Two Cents,
Thank you. Wonderful. I need to think about that.
According to my "sleeve notes" on Mahler 10, Mahler visited Freud, in the Netherlands, to seek advice about the Alma problem. What a hope! We cannot get into Freud, here, but I recall your comment on the Nabokov quip....
I am more optimistic than Yeats. I often see the worst lacking all conviction, having only guile.
And, sometimes, the best can be full of passionate intensity.
Personally, I would cite Beethoven as one of the clearest examples of the latter.
Indeed, it takes all sorts to make a world. And we are all of our time. That can help explain, but does not justify.
Many, many thanks. |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 275
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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Thanks, John, for that burst of optimism. We need it in the States, considering the political climate here. Yes, the worst may lack conviction, but are certainly full of guile... (As one political commentator noted, the war against terror is the perpetual war envisioned by Orwell as a means for the State to cow the public.)
I agree not to talk about Freud and Nietszche. Let us devote our talk to St. Cecilia. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1757
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 05:00 pm: |
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2c,
Amen. Hail, bright Cecilia, Z328. Text by Nicholas Brady
'Tis Nature's Voice; thro' all the moving Wood
Of Creatures understood:
The Universal Tongue to none
Of all her num'rous Race unknown!
From her it learn'd the mighty Art
To court the Ear and strike the Heart:
At once the Passions to express and move;
We hear, and straight we grieve or hate, rejoice or love:
In unseen Chains it does the Fancy bind;
At once it charms the Sense and captivates the Mind. |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 35
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 05:14 pm: |
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Two Cents and John A.
Ah, my educated and cultured cyber-friends - I sit here and marvel at your knowledge and word-use. Seldom, in recent years, have I been in the presence of such intellect. Makes me return to the Shiraz container for strength and inspiration.
Well - - if you think I'm going to get anywhere in the middle of a philosophical discourse between the two of you - forget it! I look at this as a written form of Wimbledon.
BTW - I'm a bit confused. Where are all these "forbidden words" posted? And who are the word-police? As a newbie here, jest wonderin' about that.
Now I'm going back to my music room, before The Little Woman (just HAD to put that in, as its one of my pet peeves) takes it over for her night of TV-watching. Sigh. Someday I'll have a REAL listening room of my own! Respectfully - LR |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1758
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 03:03 am: |
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Larry,
One could also perhaps say that people who quote Yeats and Purcell lyrics on an audio forum are also trying too hard.... I do take 2c's point though, and thank him.
"Makes me return to the Shiraz container for strength and inspiration.". Purcell had some great songs on that subject, too.
If you post a text containing a "forbidden word", you are advised that it is not allowed on this forum. Exactly what counts as forbidden, and why, is an mystery, certainly to me. The name of Richard Branson's airline and record label seems to come up often enough; you could try that, as an experiment...
All the best. |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 36
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 09:23 am: |
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John A. - with two crowns down and one crown to go, my tooth-centered life leaves scant space for humor these days - but I persist. . .
Yes, viewing your sparring match left me wondering whatever happened to the "sound" aspects of this forum. GRIN
For some readers it must appear that you two are the living example of one of Frederick Delius's small orchestra pieces - you know, the one titled: "On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring?" Hmmm. . . that's all the humor I've got left these dayz. . .
Well, I was going to post something about my foray into the world of "who will replace Placido Domingo" tenors. A lot of new so-called talent out there - and for me, the man with the best chance is a young Mexican-born chap: Rolando Villazon. He's recorded his first CD, said to be selling very well on the Continent, and just making the rounds here in the States. I highly recommend his Italian Operas CD. It's on WELL, JUST GOT KNOCKED OFF FOR USING THE WORD: V*rgin Records, and the sound is quite good!
I hope that either we can start one or more new Opera threads - or include more of that genre in this one. Don't know if ANYBODY out there is a fan - but, as for many things, I live in hope.
My more-intelligent-than-I wife came in as I was typing this, and wanted me to include something about what a jerk Delius was. So, I will say that, indeed, he treated his wife, Jelka to severe psychological abuse - and perhaps some physical abuse, as well. He oft-considered himself the reincarnation of a Nietzsche "superman," and was irrational, rude, and crude. (is that enough, Merri? OK) Aside from that, he composed some of my favorite music!
Enough about him - I hope that all who read this have a productive day, and a music-filled life, for without music, we are lost.
REspectfully - Larry R |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 37
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 09:33 am: |
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Two Cents:
(OK, OK, Merri, I'll write this to him - sigh)
Sir, after reading some of your postings, I'd like to change the spelling of your two long-gone "intellects" to FrAud and Nutzy.
OK, guys, I've passed it along. Have a, well, you know. . . |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1768
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 10:15 am: |
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Larry,
Why not start an "Opera" thread? There will be a lot of interest, I am sure. There are many opera fans here; Rick Barnes is one. I am sort of trying to keep an open mind. I have not yet found the time, and family interest, to crack open "The Magic Flute" (ROH Covent Garden; Sir Colin Davies), a birthday present. I do not wish to watch it without getting everybody together; no-one likes to be left out. The older children thought "Amadeus" (extended DVD) was great, as did I, so I am hoping this will finally be my way in.
I am, so far, still in agreement with whoever it was who said that opera is where, when someone is stabbed, instead of bleeding, they sing. I cannot suspend disbelief. We have a VHS tape of Tosca, bought by my son as a previous present, as a tease. It has some famous soloists with huge bel canto voices, bellowing sweet intimacies at each other, in a close clinch, and all I can think of is perforation of the eardrum.
I made a comment about Delius's "Brigg Fair", above, on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 12:46 am. It went unnoticed, or prehaps people were too polite to comment. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1769
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Larry,
I really dislike those pouting guys with the eye make-up at the top of this thread. They clearly fancy themselves no end. There are some archived pretty girls further up. No-one has seconded my proposal to bring them back. Would your wife approve...?
Two Cents,
Prompted by your comments, I have listened, again, to Beethoven's String Quartet Opus 131 in C# minor. This time, hi-res, namely CBS LP of The Julliard Quartet, recorded in 1969. I really cannot see how it is introspective or self-conscious. I would agree that the first movement is tragic, contemplative. The fourth is one of the wittiest and most elegant of themes and variations. The fifth, presto, just rocks. The last movement, the seventh, is bouyant, optimistic; surely? The CBS sleeve note has testimonials for opus 131 from the likes of Berlioz and Wagner, and says Beethoven himself regarded it as his greatest quartet. That's saying something! It was written at about the same time as the ninth symphony.
I started with the Late Quartets. Then worked backwards. For me, they are all on the top of the pile of anything anyone ever wrote. I had the good fortune to have an Early Quartet, Op. 18 No. 4 in C minor, as a set piece for music appreciation at age 15. About 20 years later, having left "classical" more or less completely, I heard a small scrap of it on the radio, was transfixed, and just had to track it down. This was part of my re-discovery of "classical". I now listen to the whole Beethoven String Qt. cycle about twice a year, and never tire of any of them. I would buy any DVD-A version without hestitation. Even though all performances are completely different, I have never heard a bad one. |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 39
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:03 am: |
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John A.
Sorry, I sorta paged through all those pictures, not being especially interested, and thus missed your Delius comment, and probably a lot of great humor! Next time. . .
Just read your last post - and wonder: what's the difference between "introspective" and "contemplative?" Subjective,I'd say?
BTW - having just re-done a lot of my CD library, I find that I have all early and mid-period B quartets by the Tokyo String Quartet - and late-period recordings by the Guarneri Quartet. All first-rate sound and interpretations.
But I still consider the Adagio from op. 131 to be "introspective." (grin) Respectfully - LR |
Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 40
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:12 am: |
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John A.
Re opera - it is an acquired taste, or a cliche, depending on your take on it. (can you put diacritical markings on this post? If so, how?)
My mother, God rest her soul, loved Turandot (can I italicize? how?) and as a small child I remember hearing its tantalizing sounds. Growing up, I drifted away from opera, not returning to it until I was about 40 years old. Then, I became friends with some opera singers, and was "into" the game of serious "fine arts" reporting.
You are right about the "suspended belief" aspects - many, many people just can't cross the line - and either scoff or laugh at the on-stage antics of a 300-pound principal dying slowly while belting out an aria at 160 decibels! GRIN
OK - I'm thinking about starting an opera thread - probably "Operanutz, Unite!" or some such suspend-belief headline. Stay tuned. . .LR |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1772
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:51 am: |
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Larry,
I can never resist pictures of pretty girls or questions of semantics: "what's the difference between 'introspective' and 'contemplative?'" . "Introspection" is looking within (oneself); "contemplation" means just looking, accompanied by thought; object unspecified. So I would have thought. So yes, quite different. Beethoven absolutely never contemplated his own navel, at least not in his music. He has something to say of universal concern. I do think that is correct.
Yes, opera quips would be good, too. "It is isn't over until the fat lady sings" etc. |
Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 873
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 01:32 pm: |
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what you guys don't like the pics of me and the boys?
at least ghia appreciated them!
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Bronze Member Username: Wryter
Naples,
FL
US
Post Number: 48
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 01:42 pm: |
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Kegger:
Puh-LEEZE! (double grin) LR |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 280
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 06:35 pm: |
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Kegger, the pics don't bother me, especially if you and Ghia enjoy them.
John A. and Larry R., I feel that anything I write about Beethoven's music will be woefully inadequate. Perhaps I'll follow up with some thoughts when I feel foolish and brash enough.
Last night, I listened to Op. 131 (Tokyo String Quartet, RCA, the interpretation I imagine closest to John A.'s) trying to listen from John A.'s p-o-v. Yes, you've got part of it, I think. But there is a lot more there than I believe any single person can fathom.
Best regards. |
Silver Member Username: Black_math
Post Number: 144
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 07:01 pm: |
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Last night I broke out my LP of "Loveless" by My Bldy (e-coustics wouldn't let me put the oo between the d and L) Valentine. Excellent sound, this is definately better than the CD which has never been remastered. It was nice to rediscover a forgotten classic and listen through my TT which has been neglected since winter. If you havent heard of this album and like that British "Shoegaze" sound. I would check it out.
I may break out my "The Modern Lovers" LP tonight. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1780
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 03:05 am: |
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Two Cents,
"But there is a lot more there than I believe any single person can fathom." Too right, mate! Only Beethoven himself, I suspect. But it is accessible, not "difficult", that's the marvel of it.
I could offer Op. 132 in A minor, which I long thought was my personal Desert Island Disc. The slow movement could easily fit into the "self pity" view, being headed "Hymn of thanksgiving on recovery from illness". But you come out being unafraid. Of anything. That's the miracle. That's what he can offer.
Then - look, just stop reading, anyone one doen't like this sort of talk - the Cavatina from Opus 130. It is famous; people have written reams on it. When the Late Beethoven Qts. were "rediscovered" it was taken as clear evidence that he had finally flipped, and gone ga-ga in his old age. There was Beecham's cheap jibe "Ah, yes, The Beethoven Late Quartets - written by a deaf composer for deaf listeners."
What the Cavatina is about is precisely
"things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere annarchy is loosed upon the world,.."
It breaks up. The first violin, in a soaring solo, disappears out of sight, completely detached from the "oom pah pah" conventional rhythm and harmonies (though still ingenious and interesting) of the rest of the band. It means, surely, isolation, terrifying loneliness, depair; "madness", actually - more surely, to me, than anything in Mahler. He is saying "Look, I have been there, it feels like this..." And you believe him. He knows; you've seen over that precipice, too.
But, BUT - it comes back. It is resolved. He PROVES there is a way back. The world, in the end, has order, beauty, warmth, and humanity. That movement has made grown men cry, as I am sure you are aware. I happen to be one of them, but this is not about me.
That's my take on that.
Ben,
Back to sanity. I've cracked open so many LPs over the last few months. It is exactly as you say. I even have some early 80s LPs with "digital recording" in big letters that sound better than CD. The DG I mentioned above is not one of them. It sounds dire. I wonder what their bit rate and sampling frequency was in the master. I know EMI spent years (late 70s) making digital recordings, and scrapped many, they considered they were not up to the job. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1786
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 06:35 am: |
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Two Cents, again, or anybody,
My case "Beethoven: optimist" rests now with the original ending of op. 130 in B flat: the "Grand Fugue", later published, separately, as op. 133.
First of all, he earned his living writing stuff, and had no commercial sense. The publishers took one look at the original last movement, and said "Come on, you must be joking: no-body can play that!" They were nearly correct, but not quite. So he wrote a nice alternative last movement, less technically demanding. They sold out in no time, and so gave him, and us, his published op. 133.
But look what his original intention was. After showing you the view beyond the edge of sanity, he finishes with the biggest of big tunes, about 18 minutes of it. It says: humans can do anything; life is worth living. And after witty and jaunty little tunes to contract with the massive fugal structure, it finishes like nothing ever did. Please listen, and then still say Beethoven was into introspection and self-pity.
If that does not put lead in your pencil, you are already beyond hope imho.
BTW played the Julliard LP. Terrific. My copy is marred a bit by the only serious issue with LPs, imho, pre- and post- echo; they get in the way of the music.
Sorry about this, I realise I am probably talking to myself while you are all asleep! |
Silver Member Username: Sem
New York
USA
Post Number: 188
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 08:18 am: |
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Kegger, Kegger, Kegger....
I've attempted to reply, many times, to your pic from July 17, 7:40pm. I just can't put into words exactly what I'm thinking, (in fact, what were you thinking?). Much like the novelist who cannot seem to get started, I end up erasing my reply over and over.
I guess this will have to do:
"Please stop."
Advice offered only in the best of friendship.  |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1788
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 08:37 am: |
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Sem,
Seconded. Where will it all end? No offence, Kegger!
BTW I replied to your MP3 post, Sem. I really look forward to sampling some of your music. I can do the same. |
Silver Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 875
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 09:01 am: |
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allright allright i got it!
just trying to breakup the intelect now and then.
but i'm done.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1789
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 10:45 am: |
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Ouch!
For all we know, that big guy with the earring might have written books on 19th Century German philosophy, and been just Alma's type.... |
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