SEALED BOX: Best SQ sub? Best SPL sub?
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New member Username: ErikdagenerikLivermore, CA US Post Number: 10 Registered: Aug-05 | I know I may get a lot of answers and maybe even criticism for even asking the questions. I just want to keep tally of answers and opinions. Thanks! |
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muddywaters Unregistered guest | if you want spl then you either need a ported,bandpass, or other type to move air |
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Silver Member Username: Bnd_rulezPhoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 711 Registered: Mar-05 | Get the best with SQL. Image Dynamics IDMAX would fit both those categories. |
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muddywaters Unregistered guest | good choice brunner you would be happy with the idmax |
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Bronze Member Username: 02gsxrPost Number: 47 Registered: Jul-05 | That is not always necessarily true. Some vehicles or some subs or a combination of the 2 will do better with a sealed enclosure. MOST of the time this is not true and a ported box is the best. Infact, for any daily driven car a ported box is louder. However some comp cars will do better with sealed if designed right. Now, Erik actually asked which sub is best for each. Not which enclosure... For SQ I'd say: Focal Utopia Focal Kevlar Alumapro Eclipse Alum/Titanium Dynaudio DLS Best SPL: TC Sounds - custom (Eclipse frame) CF driver (4" excursion - 108db sensitivity - 6000W!!) Memphis Kicker L7's Kicker Solo X's JL Audio W7 Orion H2 MTX 9500 Soundstream SPLX IDMax Onyx Mobile Audio Resonant Engineering XXX |
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Silver Member Username: Riebread77Post Number: 499 Registered: Jun-05 | uhhh...so your putting the IDMAX on the SPL list, not SQ??....there are def louder subs out there...no brahma on either list? |
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muddywaters Unregistered guest | no TREO either son!! |
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Silver Member Username: LettoMilwaukee, WI Post Number: 141 Registered: Jun-05 | IDMax is the best SQ sub I've ever heard... and I think many others would agree... |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4362 Registered: May-04 | "uhhh...so your putting the IDMAX on the SPL list, not SQ??....there are def louder subs out there...no brahma on either list?" Nobody can hear it all, he may not have had a chance to hear a Brahma. It is definately one of the top SQ subwoofers. Most top SQ subwoofers aren't the SQL subwoofers that frequent web forums, many feel the IDQ to be superior the ID Max, the W6v2 superior to the W7, and so forth. People don't recommend Dynaudio subwoofers often as they aren't SPL monsters by any means, but are extremely clean and tight. The "best" SQ subs typically aren't the highest excursion, the fanciest topology, or any other hoopla. Most are somewhat basic and based on proven, simple principles that most people would scoff at. As far as the SPL list, he's going in the right direction. You have to remember that subwoofers from companies like Digital Designs are designed solely with ported boxes in mind. If you want it to get loud sealed, you'll want excursion since you don't have a port reinforcing the cones output, and thus limiting it's excursion. SPL comps pride themselves on using subwoofers in ported, bandpass, and similar enclosures tuned to the frequency of the vehicle's peak cabin gain. A port will limit the excursion and boost SPL due to the port's activity, which means you can continue to add power while not stressing the sub's mechanical limits. Sealed boxes can't do this, and need a good, high linear excursion to produce respectable SPL. |
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Bronze Member Username: AcevolkovSpringfield, Missouri United Stated Post Number: 75 Registered: Jul-05 | the XXX isnt the best SPL sub that RE makes, dude..THE MT, come on, i know you knew that. |
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Silver Member Username: VoodoochildeGreencastle, Indiana Post Number: 108 Registered: May-05 | I'm not sure why the xxx is on there because the sx can get get louder than it, the xxx is made for sql while the sx is made for spl. |
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Bronze Member Username: HardballElgin, Sc USA Post Number: 17 Registered: Jun-05 | Don't forget that RE MT for the SPL side, takes a lot of power to get the most out of it tho. |
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Silver Member Username: PhuktupbassheadScottsdale, Arizona United State... Post Number: 180 Registered: May-05 | NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW we're talking!!! Tell me more, jon and Jonathan!Tell me more!Tell me more! "If you want it to get loud sealed, you'll want excursion since you don't have a port reinforcing the cones output, and thus limiting it's excursion" "Sealed boxes can't do this, and need a good, high linear excursion to produce respectable SPL" So, does that mean that all I need to do is: 1. Find DUMAX ratings ONLY! 2. Compare linear excursion of each sub that interests me. 3. Check RMS wattage to make sure it's capable of LOUD bass 4. Pick the one with highest measure of excursion that matches my amplifer 5. Be really really happy!!! Sound correct, Jonathan? |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4369 Registered: May-04 | Generally, yes, but it isn't quite that cut and dry unfortunately. There are 6 fundamental parameters to look at: Re: DC resistance of the voice coil. Optimally, you'll have a dead flat, resistive load. This isn't realistic, and especially isn't true with subwoofers as they have the highest levels of resonance. Nevertheless, a good, flat impedance is ALWAYS a good thing as it ensures an easy load on an amplifier and consistent power delivery. Le - the inductance of the voice coil. This should be as low as it can possibly be. This affects the transient response of the subwoofer and also where inductive rolloff of the subwoofer, but rolloff typically isn't a big issue with a subwoofer. Sd - surface area of the cone. Big surface area=SPL. Cms - compliance/stiffness of the suspension. This is important in determining the type of enclosure the subwoofer will work best in, not the sole factor of course, but very influential in box requirement. Mms - moving mass of the driver. Of course, 0 would be optimum. More moving mass typically equals more low bass, less equals higher efficiency and better control of the driver due to less overthrow. BL - motor force factor of the driver. The motor controls the driver, of course, a high motor strength is a good thing. This also effects the suspension of the subwoofer and the box requirement. All other parameters derive from these. As far as loud and retaining sound quality, linear excursion is the only way to accomplish this. You can always have a high mechanical excursion and have a strong enough motor to basically sling the driver to high excursion, but it will lack control and risk mechanical damage to the sub, but it will get loud. Since this is possible, you can't generalize SPL by linear excursion, dumax, wattage, x-max, etc. alone. There is also the fact that things will change once the voice coils heat up, the BL drops off a bit, impedance curve comes into play, box design in relation to the sub's suspension comes into play with the frequency given. Just too many factors that determine SPL to give a solid answer, even from a Dumax report. Dumax reports are better used as a determining factor for SQ performance, especially at higher volumes, for things like BL induced distortion, compression, and other factors. That being said, a subwoofer with a strong motor, wide BL curve, good suspension, and well designed soft parts has the necessary tools to be great if implemented well. People argue over whether the Brahma, X.X.X., ID Max, W7, whatever will be louder than each other. Any benefit is marginal and if all are in their optimum applications and in a fair comparison, they will be within 1db of each other, at least over an average. Don't worry so much over it. When you're listening to music everyday, you'll rarely pass 5mm of excursion. You don't need 30mm of linear excursion to get loud, while it may ultimately get louder in the end, you have to ask yourself whether you'll use all of it. Longer voice coils, bigger surrounds, dual spiders, stronger cones to handle excursion, all combined add mass, inductance, and require more motor and suspension to control them. They're less efficient, basically. There is no sense in getting a more power hungry, high excursion subwoofer if you're going to listen to music at normal levels, say roughly up to around 120db. |
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Bronze Member Username: ErikdagenerikLivermore, CA US Post Number: 12 Registered: Aug-05 | by the responses i've read, it seems that ported is the obvious way to go for spl. does anyone know of a ported box that will fit in an s2000 trunk? links would be appreciated too! thx. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 3817 Registered: Dec-04 | just to throw out another sub that noone on here really talks about that is an absolutly fantastic performer in the SQ and SQL catergory's is the Boston acoustic G5 subs very nice. |
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Bronze Member Username: 02gsxrPost Number: 59 Registered: Jul-05 | Unfortunately, there are no premade boxes that you can buy for an S2000. Each driver has completely different mechanical (theile small) properties, and will perform different in the same box. Therefore there are no companies that make a box for a specific car. If they do, the company should not be in business!! The fact is, the box should not be made for the car! It should be made for the sub. In order to get a box for your car you will first have to chose a good woofer. Then have a custom box built for the sub, for your car. |
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Bronze Member Username: 02gsxrPost Number: 61 Registered: Jul-05 | Unfortunately, there are no premade boxes that you can buy for an S2000. Each driver has completely different mechanical (theile small) properties, and will perform different in the same box. Therefore there are no companies that make a box for a specific car. If they do, the company should not be in business!! The fact is, the box should not be made for the car! It should be made for the sub. In order to get a box for your car you will first have to chose a good woofer. Then have a custom box built for the sub, for your car. |
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Silver Member Username: PhuktupbassheadScottsdale, Arizona United State... Post Number: 181 Registered: May-05 | Hey, Jonathan!!! I just want you to know I think you're a very, very smart guy... you definately know your s,h,i,t. Thanks, man, I really appreciate the answer you gave me up above. (Valuable info, bro. Very, very good answer!) Thanks again. James Longo: You mentioned the Boston subs for rarely mentioned sq and sql category subs... I was wondering - any spl sub rarely mentioned that you know of which would deserve be mentioned right now? |
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Silver Member Username: CenusHicksville, Ohio Usa Post Number: 415 Registered: Jan-05 | ya Shocker Sigs/Extremes |
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Anonymous | "Sealed boxes can't do this, and need a good, high linear excursion to produce respectable SPL." So for a "cheap" sub then the V-max might be a good choice for sealed to get decent SPL results since it "travels" quite a bit. I've heard 22+mm. |
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Anonymous | bump |
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Silver Member Username: Mikechec9Chicago/atlanta Post Number: 641 Registered: May-05 | for the last time. for all those without google or search abilities, funky pups are the absolute best sql subs. funky pups. they cause mayhem. |
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Anonymous | But are they insanely expensive? |
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Silver Member Username: Mikechec9Chicago/atlanta Post Number: 645 Registered: May-05 | oh, no. they are so relatively cheap. and all the rave. take a looksee: http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/FunkyPup/12.1.wmv |
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Silver Member Username: A3formePost Number: 346 Registered: Sep-04 | Back to the V-Max for a second...no offense, I'm sure the funky pups are great. The V-max has a good amount of excursion that should allow it to perform quite well in a sealed enclosure. Better than many in it's price range. Jon/anyone...correct me if I'm wrong? |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 3430 Registered: Aug-04 | Excursion isn't everything. But overall, yes, the v-max's are great for the price. |
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Silver Member Username: Mikechec9Chicago/atlanta Post Number: 646 Registered: May-05 | it was a joke, man. trying to make light of what has been an otherwise pretty bad day. i agree w/the id-max, brahma (mine are superb), xxx, TI, SoundSplinter, Crystal Comp, Ascendant Audio, Digital Designs, Diamond D9, JL for sql. for pure spl that sounds great: incriminator audio, Atomics, Treo, Beyond Audio. i have never heard of a v-max |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 3831 Registered: Dec-04 | Funky Pups are SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET I just got rid of my avalanche for a pair of funky pup 10's god I cant wait to get them installed! lol V-max is made by cerwin vega, they are a good reliable bottom to mid end sub with decent SQL abilities. In its price range I think they are one of the best |
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Silver Member Username: A3formePost Number: 347 Registered: Sep-04 | Okay, my other choices are the New 500w TypeR or the 2005 model CompVR. I have an Adire shiva, but don't want that huge of a box. |
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Silver Member Username: PhuktupbassheadScottsdale, Arizona United State... Post Number: 182 Registered: May-05 | "Funky Puppy... I am a dumbie..." Yeah. That's their advertising jingle! I heard it the other day on KFUQ FM radio station. What? Really. I did. It kind of sounds like that Funky Monkey song from Beastie Boys. Anyway, they sound better than my sub, handle more power than I can remember, the excursion is RIDICULOUS, and if you buy them... well let's just say you'll be considered DEF STUPID, YO!!!! For shizel! |
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Silver Member Username: TboltCollipark, GA Post Number: 378 Registered: Dec-04 | *sighs* crack kills. lol |
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JL nut Unregistered guest | there IS a pre-made box for the S2000 - JL audio do it, and its fitted with their 10w3 sub i think, good for SQ and SPL |
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Bronze Member Username: ErikdagenerikLivermore, CA US Post Number: 18 Registered: Aug-05 | ya..but its also $500 retail for the stealth enclosure alone. some guy at "car toys" (shop by my place) was trying to sell me one. |
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Silver Member Username: PhuktupbassheadScottsdale, Arizona United State... Post Number: 187 Registered: May-05 | Back to something previously mentioned above (Jonathan's post #4369)... Just need some more schooling and clarification, bro. Re: How many ohms is flat impedence expressed by? Cms: Compliance/Stiffness - Higher number means what type of enclosure? Lower number means what type of enclosure? Bl: What's an exceptional Bl #? And, how does it affect the suspension and the enclosure? Higher number means bigger enclosure, etc.? Le: Are there any other terms used to express the inductance of the voice coil? I can't seem to find "Le" on any of the specification sheets I have? Thanks, guys! |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4390 Registered: May-04 | Alright Sean, to make this a bit more specific, I'll show how certain parameters affect others to get the end result. As an answer to all of you questions on the specs above, it is all dependant on the rest of the sub. Those are just the fundamental parameters. All others are derived from these, it's like colors, there are millions, but they all boil down the three primary colors of blue, yellow, and red. Other parameters: Fs. Resonant frequency, basically the ratio of moving mass to suspension compliance. It is derived from Mms and Cms only. Think of a mass hung on the end of a spring. If Fs is low, then either it is a heavy cone, or a loose suspension (or a bit of both). Opposite is true if Fs is high. Qts-a parameter derived from the combination of Qms and Qes, the equation 1 / (1/Qms + 1/Qes)). Basically, the opposing forces of the mechanical suspension (Qms) and electrical suspension (Qes) act to absorb shock. They are measured at the resonant frequency of the driver. As a general guideline, Qts of 0.4 or below indicates a transducer well suited to a vented enclosure. Qts between 0.4 and 0.7 indicates suitability for a sealed enclosure. Qts of 0.7 or above indicates suitability for free-air or infinite baffle applications. There are ALWAYS exceptions, though. Qms. This is the mechanical Q of the system. It is derived from Mms, Cms, and Rms. Qms is a measurement of the control coming from the speaker's mechanical suspension system (the surround and spider), and it basically tells you how lossy the suspension is. If it is low, then it will have a large impact on Qts; typically it is many times higher than Qes is, so Qms really doesn't affect the driver's Qts that much (factoring in the equation above). Qes is a parameter derived from electrical losses at resonance. It tells you the effective strength of the driver, it's ability to push against its suspension and its mass. A low Qes means either the driver has a low moving mass, a really high motor force factor, or a really loose suspension. It is derived from Re, Mms, Cms, and BL. Vas is a measurement that indicates the suspension's tightness or looseness. It is a parameter that shows the equivalent volume of air that would equal the suspension compliance if compressed to a cubic meter. It is done in relation to the speakers cone size. Basically, large Vas number = loose suspension. Derived from Cms and Sd (driver surface area). SPL- the efficiency of the driver. If this is high, then either the moving mass is low or the BL is high. Opposite is true if SPL is low. Derived from Mms and BL. Now, generally, to sum it up, taking all these into account, a ported sub (low Q) is an efficient driver. Low mass, high BL, loose suspension. Opposite is true for sealed/IB. That is why it is considered EBP (efficiency bandwidth product), as you'll see on WinISD. It makes sense because ported boxes offer more mechanical control than sealed, so you need a more efficient driver to take advantage of it. Sealed and infinite baffle offer less control, so you need a tighter subwoofer to take advantage of that. All these parameters add up to produce the end result. |
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Silver Member Username: FfxdevilarmsDubuque, Iowa United States Post Number: 942 Registered: Jul-04 | TDX, and RE XXX, and Brahma subs are in both categories. |
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