The Showdown: Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD
Alan Parsons wishes it wasn't so. But like it or not, the senior vice president of Pioneer's industrial solutions business group has become a wary foot soldier in the battle over the future of the DVD format. As music blares from a band playing at a nearby exhibit at the 2005 International CES, Parsons sits at a small table in a meeting room contemplating how the next couple of years might play out. He remains relatively reserved, trying not to let his passion for the next-generation Blu-Ray Disc format devolve into vitriol against rival format HD-DVD. "I don't like the rock throwing," he insists. "I just want to excite consumers." That may be true, but Parsons still finds it hard to resist getting in a few digs on the HD-DVD rival, which at about 15 gigabytes per layer has roughly 40 percent less storage capacity than the Blu-Ray format. "They might end up with something ho-hum," he says. "They're saying that [their capacity] is good, but people used to think that five gigs was good enough." Parsons shrugs his shoulders a bit, wearing a look of calm but certain exasperation. "Why would we limit ourselves to a lower capacity?" he asks. To be sure, Parsons is among several CE manufacturers backing the Blu-Ray format, which they claim is superior to HD-DVD. But the HD-DVD format has its own backers, who while fewer in numbers, are equally adamant that their format will win out because of its lower transition and manufacturing costs—as well as other technical benefits and its expected quicker time to market. Indeed, either format is a vast improvement over the current DVD design, which maxes out at about 4.7 gigabytes. Even at standard-definition quality, that's barely enough space for a two-hour movie and a few hours of special features. And with that much space, forget about high-definition TV. VHS vs. Beta all over Again? Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs enable HDTV reproduction because of their massive storage capacities. Using dual-layer techniques, HD-DVD can store as much as 30 gigabytes of data while a Blu-Ray disc can pack in a whopping 50 gigabytes. In the lab, techies already are working on several-layered discs that could allow more than 100 gigabytes of storage on one disc. That's enough for several HDTV movies, special features and compelling interactive content. Or a content provider could put more than 100 hours of standard-definition quality programming on one DVD. All 180 episodes of Seinfeld on one disc, anyone? The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: new players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both use blue lasers, which operate at lower wavelengths (405 nanometers) than current red lasers (650 nanometers). That microscopic difference goes a long way. Longer wavelengths suffer more diffraction, which limits their ability to focus tightly on a surface. But a blue laser's shorter wavelength allows it to read and write data over a much tighter surface area, which in turn allows storage of far more data on a disc that's roughly the same diameter of current DVDs. The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: New players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales. But while consumers won't have to worry about obsolescence when it comes to their old DVD collections, the format war brewing between new Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs does present an age-old problem that evokes the VHS vs. Beta fiasco of the 1980s. The HD-DVD format—like the VHS format that won out over Beta—could become far more widely available to consumers sooner and at a lower price (at least initially) than Blu-Ray discs. That's because the HD-DVD format utilizes manufacturing techniques very similar to those used for the current generation of DVDs. Translation: Third-party duplication houses won't have to retool their factories significantly to make HD-DVDs a reality. That means that HD-DVD discs likely will be the first to market by at least several months, probably by the end of 2005. On the other hand, Blu-Ray discs require an entirely new manufacturing process with transition costs borne largely by duplicators (unless Blu-Ray backers devise a subsidy system. That, along with other issues, is expected to delay the introduction of Blu-Ray discs until sometime in 2006, which could hand a major advantage to the HD-DVD format. (add hard return here) "In this kind of battle, the guy who is out there first and cheaper is going to be the winner," says Fariborz Ghadar, director for the Center for Global Business Studies at Penn State University. "The more expensive and later one is going to be the loser." (The Blu-Ray camp contends that it will bring manufacturing costs nearly in line with HD-DVD during the next year. Parsons says that HD-DVD's cost advantage will amount to only "pennies" per disc over the Blu-Ray format). (add hard return here as well) "Unlike Blu-Ray discs, HD-DVD discs can be manufactured with similar equipment in the same plants that make current DVDs," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing for Toshiba America Consumer Products digital audio video products. Duking It Out Still, the nature of the next-generation rollout itself may force consumers to take sides early. Because of the vastly different physical attributes of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs, it's cost-prohibitive for manufacturers to produce next-generation players that can handle both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats in one machine. "You would need two pickup heads, and it would be very expensive," explains Stephen Balogh, business development manager at Intel's corporate technology group. So manufacturers have lined up on opposite sides of the fence, ready to produce players that only work with one or the other format. That could spell consumer confusion as buyers fear picking the wrong one and ending up with an obsolete player and content library. Each side wants to convince consumers that they should avoid the other side's format. HD-DVD backers are planning a "you want it, and we're here now" marketing strategy, whereas the Blu-Ray camp largely plans to adopt a "we won't be first, but we'll be better" campaign designed to warn consumers away from HD-DVD. So what's the breakdown of forces on each side? On the Blu-Ray side is a large group of CE manufacturers, including Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic (Matsushita Electric), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson. Some content providers also are onboard. In addition to obvious backing from Sony-affiliated movie studios Sony Pictures Entertainment and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the Walt Disney Company and its home-video division Buena Vista Entertainment offered its non-exclusive endorsement of Blu-Ray in December. In addition, video gaming powerhouse Electronic Arts, along with Vivendi Universal Games, both came out for Blu-Ray at the 2005 International CES in January. Most gaming companies have yet to pick sides, although Blu-Ray's larger storage capacity may win some of them over. "If you show Blu-Ray to a game manufacturer and say you can have an extra 20 gigabytes of storage, it's a drop-dead deal," says Blu-Ray backer Richard Doherty, managing director for Blu-Ray and professional AV at Panasonic Hollywood Labs. Of course, most PC-based games haven't even moved up to the current generation of DVDs from CDs, so it's unclear whether most gaming companies will utilize high-definition DVD formats for some time. The main backer of the HD-DVD format is Toshiba, which by itself has more market dominance than several CE backers on the Blu-Ray side combined, along with smaller players NEC and Sanyo. Toshiba plans to launch its first HD-DVD players in late 2005. In December, even Thomson—which is actually a Blu-Ray disc backer—announced that it also would sell HD-DVD players by late 2005. And an impressive list of entertainment content companies has thrown their weight behind HD-DVD, including Paramount, Universal Studios and Warner Bros. (along with Time Warner-owned New Line Cinema). All of these studios have already announced a significant amount of titles on HD-DVD to be available at the time HD-DVD players are introduced. Toshiba is dedicated to the HD-DVD format and executives staunchly believe they will win the marketing battle for consumers even before Blu-Ray gets its format off the ground in 2006. "The key part of this is going to be driven by content," says Maciek Brzeski, vice president of marketing in Toshiba's storage device division. He says consumers won't care whether the disc has 30 gigabytes or 50 gigabytes of capacity—only that the content they want is ready and available at a good price. Brzeski questions the Blu-Ray camp's ability to jazz consumers about a format that he says offers little more than a few extra gigabytes of storage. "They're going to be marketing technology, and we're going to be marketing products," he says. "It's hard to sell technology to consumers." "Our rich heritage in the development of DVD technology means that we are well equipped for the market transition from DVD to HD-DVD," added Sally, who also serves as Vice-President for the Digital Entertainment Group. "With proven backwards compatibility and real software titles available at launch, we are certain that we can deliver the very best solution in HD-DVD technology for both consumers as well as the content providers." In December, Toshiba and other HD-DVD backers formed the HD-DVD Promotion Group to promote the format, and to ensure early product launches and subsequent market penetration. Other pros and cons seem to bleed together as both formats offer similar features. For example, while HD-DVD touts the ability to create discs with red-laser standard DVD format on one side and blue-laser HD-DVD standard on the other, a Blu-Ray Disc Association spokeswoman points out that JVC announced in December a disc that allows both standard DVD and Blu-Ray content on a single side of the disc. The Blu-Ray camp has argued that single-sided discs are more consumer friendly. The Pricing Strategy In the vital area of picture quality, both formats also have a difficult time differentiating between one another. "Either format can produce a very good image," says Richard Dean, director of technical business development at THX Inc. "To me, it boils down to the price of the equipment and the availability of content." Dean, who has helped master the DVD releases of the Star Wars trilogy and other blockbuster movies, says that consumers won't notice any real quality difference between the formats. But he says HD-DVD may end up with an advantage if it can under price Blu-Ray discs and players. "I think that's going to play a very large role." As for Blu-Ray's greater storage capacity, "more space is always an advantage," Dean says, "but the question is how much more space is really needed." Notes Parsons: "If you start doing HD bonus features, it will suck up capacity very quickly." Intel executives, who first got involved in the working groups for next-generation DVD formats to help avoid a format war, already are bracing for an era of consumer confusion as a Blu-Ray-vs.-HD-DVD scenario takes shape. "We didn't want two formats coming out," says Balogh. "Now we have an even standoff, so neither side wants to compromise whatsoever." Making matters worse, he says, the entertainment studios also are split between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, although more big studios have backed HD-DVD at this point. "The studios will be the kingmakers here," he says. Ultimately, consumers may struggle to figure out what kind of players and media to purchase during the next couple of years. "The most important benefit to the consumer is that the HD-DVD players that we'll be introducing to the market this year will be fully backward compatible with the current DVDs that are already in consumers' homes. With the Blu-Ray formats' backward compatibility isn't so simple," adds Sally. Still, many are wary. "It would be best if we went to market without two formats," says Panasonic's Doherty. "We're very disappointed that we're in a format war." As the battle heats up in 2005 and well into 2006, consumers will decide which format will succeed. This material has been adapted from VISION -- a bi-monthly magazine of the Consumer Electronics Asssociation |
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     New member Username: Rogerw99Post Number: 1 Registered: Nov-04 |
As a typical consumer with a slightly better than average understanding of emerging technologies, I cringe at the thought of another VHS/BataMax format war. I remember it all too well. In the end, the consumer lost out on that one and never really knew it. In my opinion, I'd rather wait the extra year for the higher capacity format. Because that marketing line about the consumers not being able to tell the difference in quality is a load of bull! That statement alone “that consumers won't notice any real quality difference between the formats” already tells me that their intent is to compromise quality for content amount. Have these marketing types forgotten that consumers actually like the zoom function sometimes? And this one “consumers won't care whether the disc has 30 gigabytes or 50 gigabytes of capacity—only that the content they want is ready and available at a good price”. Higher capacity means higher resolution as a standard! Consumers are no longer the unsophisticated sheep that the media companies would have us be. What may kill the better/later Blu-Ray format is consumer impatience for immediate satisfaction. And HD-DVD with it's 40% LESS capacity means they will ultimately be limited in their content, quality or both sooner than Blu-Ray. It also means HD-DVD obsolescence 40% sooner. Who would want that? I’m sure that playback backwards compatibility to current DVD standards wont be a problem for Blu-Ray. Especially if they can put both on the same side of the new DVD disc. That’s another winner in my estimation. There’s less chance of ruining a disc when you don’t have to be worried about BOTH sides of a disc being scratched. But then, there is that new armor coating that was developed by TDK, I believe, that could easily solve that problem. In any case, consumers need to STOP listening to all the MARKETING HYPE, take a deep breath, clear their heads and read & understand the facts before committing another format faux pas. |
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Deathman20 Unregistered guest |
Agree with above, personally I'd rather wait til Blu-Ray comes out then getting a HD-DVD setup with less space. I'm a computer man and space is everything. The more space you can have more quality and more extras without the compermise of either one of those. With Blu-Ray its a nice to have an extra 10-20gig space on the disk, thats another 1-2DVD's by today's standards of information on a disk. People should think prior to supporting the wrong format, and more companies will support the HD-DVD due to cheaper cost, but not only that they can make more money off it too, when more people want to buy the next gen player and they want a movie that was on HD-DVD then they will buy another of the same movie that they already have. I'm waiting til 06 or 07' before I even get an HDTV so I'm at no loss for waiting til the smoke settles in this war, but I hope Blu-Ray to be the winner. |
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Todd A Unregistered guest |
The thing is an HDTV format movie can fit no problems on either disk, so the size is not really the issue. I personally would have liked MS WM9 to be usable in more DVD players (Kiss is the only one I know of) because it can do pretty good HDTV and still fit on a standard DVD. I have 3 IMAX special additions that come on DVD and WM9-HD (two disk set) and the WM9-HD is VERY impressive. I can only play it on a computer though because of the lack of players. Now I am unsure of the compression formats that will be used for each, but WM9 was one of them and it would be nice if they used this and the few WM9-HD movies that people have (like me) could play. The only problem is if the do not use an MPEG2 HD DVD format they need to pay royalties to be backwards compatable with current DVDs. Backwards compatability is a VERY BIG issue. If either one of these formats does not support standard DVDs it will not survive. If neither does, the addoption of any HD DVD/Blue Ray will be massively slowed, which will slow the addoption of HDTVs all together. This would be bad. |
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cowardly dragon Unregistered guest |
The PC aspect here makes it this race different. Beta/VHS didn't have data storage as a dual requirement.<br> <br> Consumers may not care about 30GB vs. 50GB, but the PC people sure as hell will. And since the growth of PCs that output video to TVs is growing so quickly, the markets are converging.<br> <br> I think the superior technology will win this time. Blu-Ray just has more buzz I think. |
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bcrt Unregistered guest |
yeah.. i don't understand quite fully what the HD-DVD guys are trying to prove.. their format is only 3 times larger than a DVD.. and I guess with codecs that have higher compression (WMV9?) you can fit maybe 4-6 hours worth of 1080p quality on an HD-DVD, but i've heard their standard format will fit around 2 hours at 1080p which sucks.. i don't want to upgrade to a cinema quality picture only having to switch discs and what not while watching movies like Lord of the Rings: Return of the King or the Godfather II... Blue Ray's 50 GB capacity + ability to have a DVD9 layer as well so that the disc can play both on DVD players and Blue Ray players is really what we need.. because then if i don't have a bigscreen TV yet/haven't invested in a Blue Ray player, I can just buy the Blue Ray version and watch it on a standard DVD player, and then when I do make the jump I don't have to buy a new copy another thing i must say, i think the hi-def format battle has come too soon, theres still too many people with non-HDTV's |
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deezus Unregistered guest |
I think they should join forces and share the huge pie known as dvd sales...come on you know they will have so many different versions of a movie it will be like printing money....how about this blu-dvd or maybe blu-hddvd....whatever just become as one....... |
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OldTechGuy Unregistered guest |
I'd love to have an HD option on some movies. But I don't want to have to replace all my media like I did when going from magnetic to optical. There are some movies I don't think warrant it. I'm leery of Blu-Ray. I'm not seeing the information in the latest write ups but I distinctly remember reading how they were not really about HD content and more concerned with copy protection. Cowardly Dragon mentioned WM9. I'm generally the last guy to jump on any MS wagon but do the Blu-Ray people have a better option? I certainly don't trust anything Sony more than anything MS. If WM9 has an equal or better picture with better compression then losing some space may be worth it. Especially if I get to back up my movies. And that's not code for steal: I purchase my movies and don't appreciate being treated like a criminal by the manufacturers by putting copy protection on the product designed to thwart only home users rather than real pirates. If Blu-Ray is about content and quality then sign me up. But be sure it's not really about control before you eschew HD-DVD. |
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kodiak81 Unregistered guest |
No matter how much is said about the data capacity the winning format will be the one p0rn industry goes with. The BluRay has far too many big companies backing it, that might lead to the format being under corporate control too much, plus early BluRay drives used a cartridge system just like the DVDRam. |
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Anonymous |
There's one thing this guy forgot to mention about the VHS vs BETA war that raged in the late 70's, early 80's. SEX, yes, it was the sex industry that tipped the balance in favor of the VHS format back then, because the company that was backing BETA back then didn't want any adult content to be produced and sold on his format. Read the history books people, and yes, that includes you too Sony, don't repeat the mistakes of the past or it could cost you dearly because in the end it wasn't about technological superiority, but the nature of the twisted human psyché. Such an interesting part of our techie past :P. |
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Anonymous121212 Unregistered guest |
Things might have changed since I read about this stuff, so I might be talking rubbish, but... I'd also like to hear more about codecs. It wasn't covered in this article (which only focussed on storage capacity), but the last I heard both formats had bad deficiencies. HD-DVD's was its comparatively poor capacity, but it was going to use a better codec (MPEG4?) in order to improve the image quality and storage capacity over current DVDs. Blu-Ray has the better capacity (in raw GB terms), but was stupidly going to stick with the old (MPEG2?) codecs, thus crippling its own potentiial. If Blu-Ray was using a more advanced codec, it would have everything, but they passed up the opportunity to provide a genuinely superior alternative. HD-DVD might not be as technologically inferior as the Blu-Ray people would have us think. I also think that if either side expects any new format to be adopted with the same fervour as DVDs, they're in for a horrid surprise. |
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Unregistered guest |
Blu-Ray just wins this battle hands down. Not because it's better or will have more movies. It will win because 40-50 million US (and likely a majority of Japanese and European) homes will have a Blu-Ray player by 2008 - It's called the Playstation 3. Why buy a HD-DVD player if you already own a Blu-Ray PS3? As to conversion difficulties, manufacturers will convert their plants not to make movies but to make PS3 game discs. Since MS/XBOX2 will use a standard DVD drive, HD-DVD will be locked out of the next-gen game system market. All big burning houses will support Blu-Ray so they can get a piece of the PS3 market. The PS3 is the "viral phage" that Sony needs to win the format war. Lots of people will buy a cheap DVD player, but the new single purpose HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players will start out very expensive (as all new format players do). The PS3 will sell as a videogame console with Blu-Ray movies as a bonus. Consumers will buy movies for the player they already have, not buy a second (and initially very expensive) one. Sony wins this fight easily. |
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Unregistered guest |
Great article - thanks. It's worth thinking about the fact that before investing in this new technology the average consumer, while more savvy than in the past will definitely consider predominantly: 1. Whether they can play their "old" DVDs on a new Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player 2. Whether they will notice a significant improvement in image quality or content over their existing (relatively cheap) DVDs. I believe that: 1. If HD-DVD players can provide backward compatibility at a cheaper cost, people will buy such players regardless of capacity. And with just cause - who wants to renew their entire DVD collection as well as getting an expensive new player? This will be a major factor in who the ultimate winner will be. 2. Since most people don't have a 1080p-capable (and in most cases not even a decent 1080i-capable) HDTV, and probably wont for another few years at least, then the answer to the second question is that consumers will not notice a significant quality improvement, so whichever costs less will win out. Once again this is HD-DVD. Important to note that from a PC gamer perspective (being the owner of TweakGuides.com I understand this quite well  ) - 30GB is enough for most PC games well into the near future. Given even the largest games so far are 5GB, and given improvements in compression techniques, it's hard to believe PC games will blow out to 50GB in the next few years. If they do, 2 HD-DVDs will be as fine as 1 Blu-Ray disk anyway - hardly a cost blowout. So while I'm actually all for Blu-Ray the format sounds too much like a premium product at a premium price, and the price doesn't seem like it will fall until 2008 at the earliest. As someone who owns 130 DVDs and a HDTV, and some tech knowledge, I favor Blu-Ray, but realize that it cannot compete with HD-DVD on the consumer market. And let's be honest, most older movies simply will not look that much better at 1080p than they do at 576i - doubling the resolution of a grainy image simply increases the visible graininess. I'd love to have a format which is more future-proof, but once again even 50GB is hardly future proof either. Let's not pretend that by going with Blu-Ray, we can build up Blu-Ray movie collections which will last more than 5 years before the next tech wave comes through. HD-DVD promises cheaper sooner and that may be just enough of a consumer edge to relegate Blu-Ray to be the MiniDisc as opposed to the Compact Disc (to use an audio analogy). |
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HD Guru Unregistered guest |
PS2 had little affect on the adoption of the DVD format according to known statistics. PS3 won't be any different. |
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Freddo-jenix Unregistered guest |
I say Go Blu-Ray!! ... ... (cos it's WAY too much of a mouthful to say: Go Aitch-Dee-Dee-Vee-Dee)! ... also I'd rather back my 200GB hard disk to-... well, most of the disc is kept empty for video editing temp files, but I'd like to make a disc image with all my fave programs installed and 50GB would be wayyy better for that... |
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Bladen Unregistered guest |
Blu-Ray supports MPEG 2, MPEG 4 and Microsofts VC-1 (formely known as VC-9). I believe VC-1 (WM9) is better than MPEG 4, thats what Microsoft say anyway... |
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Anonymous |
PS3 discs will be pressed by Sony's DADC arm, so it's not like PS3 alone would drive broad replication capacity in support of BD. Given the replication issues still clouding BD-ROM's future (still no reference design, no BD-ROM lines exist outside of the lab, no line equipment available for sale, even after 6 months of availability no replicator has purchased a Sony PTR-3000 BD mastering system, etc.), Sony's recent public peace offering might be their way of saying uncle on the ROM side of the equation, realizing that there's still major coin to be made on the recording side of the equation where BD shines. |
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Deadmeat Unregistered guest |
This article is already outdated. Sony's new President already announced his willingness to compromise around HD-DVD if the patent loyalty payment dispute is settled. Even Sony's president doesn't think BD-ROM stands a chance against HD-DVD with content providers overwhelmingly preferring HD-DVD over BD-ROM, the whole battle is futile. |
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Unregistered guest |
HD-DVD CODECs supported are Microsoft's VC-1 (windows media), MPEG2 and MPEG4. Blu-Ray is supporting the same Microsoft VC-1 and MPEG2. This is obviously a win for Microsoft either way. I have the T2 Extreme Edition which has the full length movie in 1080i in Windows Media format and it looks amazing! It takes a 3 GHz+ PC with a 128 MB DirectX 9 card to play so it takes major house power. Seeing they can already put full length movies in HD on a normal DVD I wonder if this battle truely needs to be faught between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. PaulW |
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Abram Unregistered guest |
I'd much rather wait for Blu-Ray. I work in high def video creation, and the extra space never goes to waste. |
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TWill_1 Unregistered guest |
I am 100% for blue ray as long as the blue ray players will also play my 200+ DVD's. If this is not possible i would have to back HD-DVD. Some guy above stated that blue ray needed cartages to play: well he is misinformed!!! Any how, the only way I would ever think of buying a HD-DVD player is if the blue ray would not play my HUGE investment in DVD movies. I am 100% for blue ray as long as the blue ray players will also play my 200+ DVD's. If this is not possible I would have to back HD-DVD. Some guy above stated that blue ray needed cartages to play: well he is misinformed!!! Any how, the only way I would ever think of buying a HD-DVD player is if the blue ray would not play my HUGE investment in DVD movies. |
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Anonymous |
I'm boycotting Toshiba. In this scenario, BIGGER is better. 30 GB is not enough. Remember this is going to be a storage medium too folks. In the end it will most likely be HD-DVD. Let's face it, VHS was inferior to beta in every way as well and who won out in the end? VHS and everyone but the consumer. My greatest hope is that HD-DVD's market share (which they will attain because most consumers are idiots) will force Blu-Ray to become equally as affordable as well as fully backward compatable. As to re-buying your whole DVD library, don't even stress it. Most all movies even today are shot on film, don't ask me why. (*cough* film snobs *cough*) Film up-converted to HD still looks like film and 24fps still looks old-fashioned even when converted to 30. Personally I think we as consumers need to refuse to purchase a single high definition disc until we are offered the best of both worlds. They can't force feed us and believe me, they want us to eat it up. There is so little HD content out there right now. The only thing that makes sense is to wait for the real deal. |
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mypcrocks Unregistered guest |
first, standard dvd's are not going too disappear overnight they will get cheaper & cheaper when HD-DVD comes and untill the cost of HD players and disc's falls near. The masses will vote with there wallets first. second, unless there is a all-in-one solution to HD the first to fill shops & videoshelf's is going to have a huge headstart (HD-DVD 6mths+)? it could be all over before it starts! third, most people don't understand HDTV (1080i 576P ect) don't think it will be any different here. they will buy wot the salesman tells them will make that $5000+ overpriced plasma/LCD he sold them last year look EVEN BETTER (my $175 HDTV card on 19" crt monitor with 5.1 THX speakers & sound card looks better) lastly, true HD gaming is a long way off yet (pc) how long will we wait for half-life3,Doom4???? So who will win the HD war? if its cheap looks good and DAD can run up a copy. who cares!! NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOE!!! (and thats where most of the money is)FOLKS. |
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E.T Unregistered guest |
"The BluRay has far too many big companies backing it, that might lead to the format being under corporate control too much..." Completely wrong, if "Hollywood" is strongly behind HD-DVD you can bet they're planning some heavy restrictions to limit its use. Also considering space... HDTV-video just happens to require much over FOUR times as much space as normal TV-res video. So I can't see any reason for selecting some smaller capacity media while its opponent offers 60% more space... or maybe except fact they want media which will become obsolete faster. And they better upgrade framerate, current framerate of DVD video s**ks. (also increases space requirement) "true HD gaming is a long way off yet (pc)" 1600x1200 isn't enough? |
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gabbagabbahey Unregistered guest |
This reminds me of the silly DVD-Audio vs SACD war: 80% of consumers own simple electronics and are uninterested in high resolution, be it audio or video. DVD and CD triumphed because of convenience, not quality. The real battle (me against my friends) is Cd against mp3, DVD against DiVX -or crappy avi downloads-. |
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Imtiaz Haider Unregistered guest |
I live in Asia. Over here, VHS still dominates a large share of the market pie. But DVD is only making an appearance and it is doing it with a bang. People owning a DVD player understand why this is important. Extra special content, extra audio, choice of subtitles are some of the things that can make a DVD more of a must have attraction over VHS. The hard fact is, people still buy/rent VHS's because it is cheap to buy/record/rent one. Oh, one hard fact about DVD's in Pakistan. It was the Playstation2 and Xbox consoles that drived the DVD sales into almost 25% of the market and increasing. If Playstation 3 will be supporting Bluray drive as default. I'll leave the readers to speculate what will happen to the format war in my country. HD-DVD? No one ever heard of that over here pals. Playstation 2 was sold in large quantities when it cameout. I'm expecting the same to be true with Playstation3, which will debut in May'05 at Electronic Entertainment Expo and to be officialy mass released in Japan/USA in the first quarter of 2006. Matter of fact I got 300GB of anime on my PC. My HDD's are filled to the brim. To relieve myself of all this data(or back it up) I need something that can store it all in 2 or 3 discs. Not in 30+ DL-DVDR's or 18 HD-DVD's. I want my 300GB to be transferred to 6 blurays in under 2 hours. How's that for a thought from Pakistan? |
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Anonymous |
i would like to say sth as a average consumer, a lot of ppl post in this thread know the difference between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray (i know it now), but as an average consumer, i would choose whatever come out first preferably with lower price! if i see the amazing HD image of my favourite movie, i would not hesistate to buy it immediately without considering whether the dics is 30GB or 50GB, even though someone tell me that by next year u can have the same HD movie together with some HD feature in it. since i buy the first one, i would buy another HD-DVD next to enjoy the use of the HD-DVD player. this is the so-called first mover advantage. i'm also a gamer, from gamer view point, first of all, most PC games are still using CD rather than DVD, and most games are 3D, the content on the screen is unlimited just depending on the processing power of the graphic card, one can display the content using 2560x1440 if and only if the graphic card has enough processing power, the 3D info are all store in the HD of the PC, the disc is only use for verifying the genuinity of the software, a CD will do the job. Regarding PS3, it will not be available earlier than the Blu-Ray. And moreover, the primary motive of buying the PS is to play games, for playing game, i don't care what media it uses. If someone primary motive of buying a PS3 for movie, it will look whether the media is popular, so if HD-DVD is more popular, those ppl won't buy a PS3 for movie. i'm not opposing Blu-Ray, but ppl just hate waiting, of course, if when the HD-DVD comes out, the Blu-Ray annouces that it will be available by next month, ppl won't mine waiting for a better options, but that isn't the fact. |
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New member Username: CthulhuLewisville Dallas, Texas Post Number: 9 Registered: Jun-04 |
"i'm not opposing Blu-Ray, but ppl just hate waiting, of course, if when the HD-DVD comes out, the Blu-Ray annouces that it will be available by next month, ppl won't mine waiting for a better options, but that isn't the fact." i don't mind waiting... i'm not buying anything until there's just one format available. end of story. i, like 90% of the people out there, don't even have a hd television yet...and probably won't in 2006 either. i'll let all the people with more money than sense duke it out and i'll wait till it's over. i just hope that the better format wins, unlike beta and vhs. =) |
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New member Username: Audio_highMountain View, CA USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-05 |
I am the owner of a high-end audio/home theater store (www.audiohigh.com), and it is depressing to see this type of format war yet again. There are some good comments here. I agree that most people have never heard of SACD and DVD-A (including Tower Records employees....), but I think the case is a little different for video. A lot more people are buying HDTVs than high-resolution music transports, and people will know about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD soon enough. I personally am rooting for Blu-Ray, and I am sure manufacturers will make players that are backward-compatible with 480i DVDs. But having seen VHS win over Beta, Microsoft win over Apple, and Republicans win over Democrats, I know that evil exists in the world, and consumers usually lose to corporate greed. Sigh. Michael Audio High |
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Pbmax542 Unregistered guest |
"Republicans win over Democrats" This thread is cracking me up. I too believe that Blu-ray is the better tech, but I bet I will own both players by the end of 2006. I plan to pick up my HD-DVD player the day that they come out. I just wish they would hurry up and release them already. I want my movies to look as good as CSI on CBS, and the sooner the better. This format war could last a long time, and I don't want to wait for a winner. I NEED HD MOVIES NOW!!!! BTW, the winner of the war will be determined by which technology shows up at Blockbuster first. Regards, Louie |
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Anonymous |
in business sense, HD-DVD has both the first mover advantage and the price edge, Blu-Ray has the tech edge, but the tech edge is not great enough to overcome the time and price advantage of the competitor. imagine HD-DVD comes out 6 month earlier, in six months, ppl want to enjoy the HD, many HD contents will come out, by the time Blu-Ray comes out, a 30% more contents in HD-DVD format is already enough to leave the Blu-Ray in dust,moreover, at that time, HD-DVD will surely compete on price with Blu-Ray since there will be room for price cut 6 months after a product release, so it is hard for blu-ray to fight back. |
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DMF12345 Unregistered guest |
Critical question: WILL EITHER BE RECORDABLE? |
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Potatis Unregistered guest |
Why doesn't the industry just go for HVD (holographic) 1000GB discs with Super Hi-vision (4000 scanlines) instead? Not fair to milk out some cash and/or let people hang around in forums discussing formats that might never take off. I actually don't believe any will succeed unless the discs are 100% backward compatible (have a DVD layer) and are playable in reglar DVD players. You can't introduce a "new" format that has the exact physical appearance as CD and DVD and expect people to adopt it like crazy. Look at DVD-A/SACD, which might actually have succeed if all discs had had to have a CD layer. (But then again, HDCD didn't) |
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Potatis Unregistered guest |
Why doesn't the industry just go for HVD (holographic) 1000GB discs with Super Hi-vision (4000 scanlines) instead? Not fair to milk out some cash and/or let people hang around in forums discussing formats that might never take off. I actually don't believe any will succeed unless the discs are 100% backward compatible (have a DVD layer) and are playable in reglar DVD players. You can't introduce a "new" format that has the exact physical appearance as CD and DVD and expect people to adopt it like crazy. Look at DVD-A/SACD, which might actually have succeed if all discs had had to have a CD layer. (But then again, HDCD didn't) Oh, and I do believe PS3 could get Blu-ray a much better start than PS2 did for DVDs, as PS2 was introduced in 2000 when DVDs already was 4 years old and many people already bought DVD players. |
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Anonymous |
I actually hope that neither HD-DVD nor BLU RAY will catch on... MS supports both, and both include WMV9 as a mandatory codec. This immediately means that any open-source player will NOT play the discs...Not to mention any other protection that will stir things up like DeCSS did... The discs...bluray all the way. Maybe us free people should make a FreeBlue without any restrictions or patents whatsoever....But, like most free stuff, it would be squashed like a bug by MS and Hollywood.....Argh. |
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Anonymous |
I'm missing something here. Drives will have to have both blue and red lasers, HD decoders will have to deal with both WM 9 and H.264/MPEG4, discs will still have both 50 and 60 frame options. Why can't an HD DVD player play both types of HD disc in which case I'll buy it with my HD screen and not care who wins the HD DVD format war. |
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Potatis Unregistered guest |
latest buzz is that hd-dvd would be used for north america and blu-ray for the rest of the world ..like two physically incompatible regions? |
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Prodigal $on Unregistered guest |
Both formats will be using the H.264 codec also know as MPEG4 part 10 or AVC. This is an open source codec and is the most advanced codec in the world. Do a search and see for yourself. Its what Quicktime 7 is based on. M$ can keep their proprietory technology as we all know open source is the way forward. Price will be the determining factor in the outcome of this battle. Personally im gonna wait! Its what smart people do ;) |
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NoJoo Unregistered guest |
OK, some people just don't get it. 1. HD gaming? Something like that would need 2D-games. On the PC side, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are pointless in gaming. Since all games are installed on the harddrive, they can be compressed really tight. But when using for back-up or mass-storage, size matters. HD-DVD-Rs would need to be over 20% cheaper than Blu-Ray-Rs to win. 2. Sure people will buy PS3 for gaming. But they will notice that it supports Blu-Ray, and will buy Blu-Ray movies. Unless there's notable price difference with HD-DVDs. 3. It doesn't matter how many in individuals are smart, or how smart, people are still stupid. They'll go right for the convenient one. Meaning the lower priced and maybe first. 4. In the end few people have need for HD-content right now, or a year from now. They're rushing it needlessly. Almost as if HD-DVD people fear that Blu-Ray will "get there first" or something. Anyway, most people won't care of either one for a long time, so those who have more money for tech-stuff will start the voting. Hard to say which side those will choose. 5. I really consider that side which has the "Hollywood" on their side as the "evil" one. I don't trust Sony much, but a lot less the movie industry. And from what I've heard, the HD-DVDs already have a copyright-thing. 6. Sony going for both doesn't mean that the Blu-Ray sucks, they likely just would like to cover their bases. 7. 20 gigs is still 20 gigs. Nobody seems to remember how with DVDs was thought that "it'll take decades to fill these things" or something along those lines. The more space we get, the more we need. 8. Blu-Ray disks don't have higher production costs themselves, it's only the beginning that costs most. And there's no way that X-Box 2 (or Next) will use normal DVDs. Doesn't make sense. From what I've learned, beta was first and had better quality, but TVs at that time were so bad, few saw the difference. Also Beta had smaller capacity. Short: PS3 will likely have effect on winner. Most people don't need HDTV-stuff. Most people will go for the cheaper. PC-users will likely go for the larger capacity. PC-games will likely go for normal DVDs for years to come. Personally I'm for Blu-Ray, but believe that this will indeed be a difficult war. Placing bets on either side will be extremely risky. If one should buy either a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD device, it should be made for support of that format. Otherwise, it is just foolish. |
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Unregistered guest |
Thats right - Hd Dvd will will be cheaper and thats what counts for most people. PC users, most likely, will not like to wait half a year for a better format. |
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New member Username: Omega3002Post Number: 2 Registered: Oct-04 |
Well.... whoever wins, I think that Hollywood should be careful about the whole double-dip issue. You don't want to alienate consumers by forcing them to upgrade to the new format because it will include added footage or bonus features. Just too early and ugly at this point to make any kind of predictions. DVDs are extremely popular and I think the majority of folks are going to shy away from the whole HD scene for a long time, so I don't think it matters who gets out the door first. Cost is important but people still want the most for their money and that depends on the type of consumer. Me, for example, would opt for Blu-ray because of its higher capacity I could also use for PC storage. I think PS3 will be a strong driving force for Blu-Ray that Sony will force but the PS3 will NEVER EVER EVER use all that space. The Xbox2 is a big question mark right now but I doubt they will go with Blu-ray because of cost. Nintento will probably still use some variant of their mini-DVD format but I am just speculating. Most movie studios are probably going to opt for HD-DVD because of cost and piracy protection. But I seriously don't see one format winning over the other. Neither side is going to give up and I seriously think we are going to get stuck with two formats. Even though the idea of a universal media format sounds nice and is ideal, in the real world its just not practical. Look at the whole DVDA/SACD/DualDisc mess we're in. Most people are going to stick with CD and mp3 for a long time to come. So these are very small niche markets, but I support them wholeheartedly. It all depends on the type of consumer, and in my case I am very interested in high resolution audio. But most people don't care and are going to stick with mp3s etc because of cost and convenience (and to be honest most people dont care about or notice a difference in the quality). Its a shame but these are the facts of life. In the mean time, I'm going to continue to enjoy HDTV on my 60" Sony Grand Wega IV and my DVD/CD/DVDA/SACD/DualDisc collection using some very high end equipment. Have a nice day :-) BTW, I think the whole PSP/UMD movies thing is a complete joke. Whoever falls for this crap should check their brain for damage. I predict imminent death for this junk. Maybe if they offered this crap for sane prices... My post was based on opinion and speculation so don't flame. |
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Bronze Member Username: DatraderPost Number: 12 Registered: Mar-05 |
Forget abot HD-DVD or blu-ray. Microsoft has already had Media Player 9 HD format (1080p). If microsoft can work with movie studio and have movie in this format, I will just connect my PC to my HDTV to watch movie (they have already had few short movies in 1080p). If microsoft moves fast to get the content, both HD-DVD and blu-ray will miss out. Downloading the 1080p movies will take too long. If netflix can ship 1080p HD movies hard drives that can be played on PC, there will be no need for blu-ray for the purpose of watching HD movies, since in the foreseable future, the best TVs can only display 1080p movies. |
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NoJoo Unregistered guest |
It's not feasible to sell movies on harddisks, hence the HD-DVD/BluRay -thing. But like I mentioned, it's not current. People have just bought/buying DVD-stuff. They need a good reason to change to the next format. It's not as much waiting, as it is just not caring. Where does it mention that BluRay will be out half-year later? All I remember seeing, is that it'll be later, but not how much. As a PC user, I will rather not think "right now", as much as "in the long run", in which case BluRay is definetly better. 20G somehow adds up, even by itself. Also, it's not how much it costs, it's how much you get for your money. If you see a disk for 3 dollars and one for 5, knowing that the first has 30GB and the latter 50GB, there's no sure winner. If it's $3 and $4, 50 gigs is the choice. The UMD-thing is quite funny. I wouldn't pay over 5 bucks, if even that, to see a movie on such a small screen. Or on the move. Good thing everyone should be able to rip their own movies for the PSP, eh? |
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