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Thread: Panasonic xr55 or Yamaha HTR - 5930 |
    
Bronze Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 100
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 08:40 pm: |
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Hi guys i have my sound system all set up for about 1/2 year now. It consists of a Yamaha htr-5930 receiver and Athena micra speakers. The problem is i dont feel like the sound is reaching its full potential with the Yamaha receiver? is this just me expecting too much or not? I was wandering if the Panasonic xr55 is any better? 50% music 50% Cable |
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Bronze Member Username: Mvanmeter
KY
USA
Post Number: 91
Registered: Jan-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:31 am: |
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I seriously doubt it is your receiver - almost "any" modern a/v receiver can process the audio signals it gets better than the source or speakers can handle.
I would first research you audio sources and then try other speakers.
What is your source equipment and how are you feeding it to the receiver. How are your speakers wired to the receiver? |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 101
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 03:58 pm: |
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My audio source is Xbox for cd's plugged through standard rca (red, white) cables. and some times my dvd player using optical out. I was thinking of replacing the center speaker would this help? |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12719
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:02 pm: |
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What does the Panasonic offer you that made you think about upgrading? It is not necesaarily upgrading, though. It may offer a difference but not an improvement. There are plenty of rave reviews concerning the Panasonic, but then again, there are also plenty that disagree, so you may want to listen to it first before jumping in the bandwagon. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 102
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:42 pm: |
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True, but first off its 7.1 so i could add a good set of front speaker and replace the center or would that just mess everything up? oh yeh and the base is kinda boomy!! |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12720
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 06:12 pm: |
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Boomy bass? What subwoofer are you using? Did you try different placements?
7.1 is not all that it's cracked up to be. I have 7.1 but the gains are not at all that noticeable, plus there's not a lot of 7.1 material out there. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 103
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 07:07 pm: |
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Ok ill take your word for it. Yeh the subwoofer is rite next to my tv stand and when I play hip-hop/rap music the Bass sometimes sounds really cheap and have to keep adjusting it to a more comfortable level. I am using the standard subwoofer that comes with the Athena Micra package. ( I have now moved my sub at the side of my room next to my couch and have noticed a mild improvement.) |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 104
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 07:09 pm: |
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Would the sound improve if i had a better quality dvd/cd player? |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12728
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 07:09 pm: |
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Subwoofer placement is very important. But if you are the kind of person that really like heart pounding bass, you may want to take a look at HSU subs or Velodyne. |
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Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 105
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 07:41 pm: |
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Would that blend with my athena speakers? |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 106
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 08:17 pm: |
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what about a good pair of bookshelf or floor speakers, they have quite a bit of bass rite? |
Gold Member Username: Hawk
Highlands Ranch,
CO
USA
Post Number: 1143
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:23 pm: |
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Silas:
The receiver can make a huge difference in the sound. About 3 1/2 years ago, I attended a double blind demonstration of 4 receivers that were not named, but later we found out there were 3 100wpc receivers (a Denon, an Onkyo and I believe the last one was a Yamaha) and a 50 wpc NAD T752. Same source and same speakers were used, and the shop putting on the demonstration simply identified them as A, B, C and D, and moved between all four of them. Everyone attending the demo listened carefully, but it was very obvious that D was far superior to the others--the choice was unanimous. Turns out that was the NAD, the "smallest" of the receivers, which sounded so much stronger and more authoritative, like it was in full control whereas the other receivers sounded like they were straining to produce the material--suddenly I realized why I didn't like my Denon receiver as it also sounding like it was straining to reproduce the sound. I have since learned that the real difference is not the amount of "watts" that matters, but the amount of "current" produced by the receiver. Very few manufacturers will talk about current--usually it is only high end equipment makers that will reveal current figures.
I would not simply buy another receiver, whether it be the panny or any other. Instead, I would shop at audio stores where you can try a new receiver out at home, with the right to return it if you are not satisfied. Your Micras are small speakers and they will not produce the sound of larger speaker. Nevertheless, you need something with more power (more current) so that the Micras can deliver everything that they have. Having more current behind the speaker will make a difference.
In that regard, I would recommend only five brands of receivers that produce real power: Harman/Kardon, Marantz, NAD, Outlaw, and Pioneer Elite (Outlaw does not have a dealer network, but you can order it and get 30 days to try it at home). Try something like an NAD T743/744, or a H/K AVR 144/145 with your speakers, and see if you hear an improvement in the sound (the 144 costs about the same as the Panny). Now, this may not solve your problem, but you have to isolate where the problem is and I suspect that it may well be your receiver. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3284
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
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Your current thing doesn't make a lot of sense. As current goes up, so does watts, they are directly related. The formulas for figuring wattage are ohms law, E x I, R x I2, E2/R.
E=volts
I=current
R=resistance
There's no set standard for figuring watts in receivers, so manufacterers can basically claim whatever wattage they want. |
Gold Member Username: Hawk
Highlands Ranch,
CO
USA
Post Number: 1148
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 01:50 am: |
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David:
You are mistaken about figuring the watts from a receiver as not being standardized--it is established by federal law. I am arguing that the law used is wrong in today's marketplace.
Manufacturers have a specific test they must use. In 1969 or 70, the FTC got mad at the receiver maker's wild power claims and decreed that they must measure the power by reporting the watts produced by two channels into an 8 ohm short. Today, with many receivers having seven channels (the Yamah ZX-9 has nine channels in a real case of overkill), many receiver makers still only report what the receiver will produce by driving only two channels into an 8 ohm short. So, they test the two front channels and it makes 100 wpc, then they test the center channel and it also can make 100 wpc. Finally, they test the two rear channels and they can claim 100 wpc. All channels were tested, two at a time, to determine that 100 wpc were produced. But some of these manufacturers never test all five channels at once to see what the power output really is.
There are several problems here. One, no speaker is a perfect 8 ohm load, but it can vary widely across all audible frequencies. I remember seeing one speakers impedence curve going from 3.3 ohms to 22.1 ohms and just about everywhere in between, so the impedence requirement of 8 ohms is arbitrary and bears no resembalance to reality. Two, if you are driving seven channels, how much of a power drop is experinced when driving all channels at once? In the November of 2001 issue of S&V Magazine, they reported on a bench test of the Marantz SR7200, a six channel receiver rated at 105 wpc. But, when driving all six channels, that receiver clipped at a mere 27 wpc (29 wpc into five channels). Clearly, the power supply was grossly undersized to produce 100 wpc into six channels! And that is my point--watts are a useless indication of the receiver's real power capability because you are never comparing apples to apples. Not because the manufacturers figure watts differently, but because they test it differently. You never really know what the load is, and if the manufacturer has rated the receiver at only two channels at once (per FTC rules), you don't know what kind of power you really have. I think you might agree with this.
My point about current is to look at the peak current capability of the power supply, not the output of the power transistors into an arbitrary load. Only by knowing the peak current capability of the power supply can you really understand what kind of power the receiver is truly capable of generating. So, instead of looking at the tail end of the power chain, I prefer to look at the front end of the power generation chain since it is the relative strength of the power supply that will determine what the receiver is really capable of.
Sorry if that wasn't clear in my earlier post. |
Bronze Member Username: Mvanmeter
KY
USA
Post Number: 92
Registered: Jan-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 08:53 am: |
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Hawk -
Thank you, that was an excellent explanation of the mysterious "power rating" marketing hype.
I remember buying my first "real" receiver in the mid-70's and using the then new federal rating standards of watts RMS with a specified distorion value. It truly cut the hype out of the ratings at the time. I had no idea the standards had not really changed with the new multichannel receivers. Thanks ! |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 107
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 09:41 am: |
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Well thanks for the explination, didnt understand most of it!!  so you would advise a better receiver over a better set of tower speakers or center speaker. |
Gold Member Username: Hawk
Highlands Ranch,
CO
USA
Post Number: 1152
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 01:24 pm: |
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silas:
Yes, I would start by upgrading my receiver before I upgraded the speakers. Now, your Micras are very small speakers and there will be limits to what those small speakers can do, but getting new speakers to go with an underpowered receiver will not solve the problem, hence my recommendation that you start with the receiver.
Now, I don't have any idea what your budget might be, but as I have stated in the past, in the under $1K range, there are only five brands worth looking at--Harman/kardon, Marantz, NAD, Outlaw and Pioneer Elite (but not Pioneer). If the budget is tight, I highly recommend you look into getting a factory refurb as these are more reliable than new and usually cost about 50-70% of new. For example, I know you can get an NAD factory refurb from Spearit Sound for something like $479 ($699 new), and it comes with a one year warranty. I also know of a Marantz SR5600 available as a refurb for $380 ($720 new) which is also a very fine receiver--it only comes with a 90 day warranty, but you can always buy an extended warranty for something like $40-50. I have purchased several refurb products and have never had a problem.
Once you have a good receiver, then you can see if the Micras are going to do the job for you. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 108
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 03:38 pm: |
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They sound good, but i have very limited cash at the moment and don't you think that these receiver may be a little to good for the speakers? |
Bronze Member Username: Mvanmeter
KY
USA
Post Number: 93
Registered: Jan-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 06:20 pm: |
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way back up the thread Silas mentioned he used his Xbox for audio with analog red-white cable connection.
None of the digital modes are available this way, only when using a digital coax or Toslink optical connection. If his DVD player is connected by Toslink optical, then it will give him 5.1 or DTS if available |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 109
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 09:23 pm: |
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Yeh my dvd player has both Dolby and DTS, but when i listen to music it never plays in Dolby or DTS. Instead the Yamaha receiver receives it as an analog feed so it goes strate to Pro Logic II. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 110
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 09:45 pm: |
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Oh yeh and could you also tell me the best place to buy refurbished receivers? thanx.. |
Gold Member Username: Hawk
Highlands Ranch,
CO
USA
Post Number: 1155
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 11:47 pm: |
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Well, the ones I mentioned are as follows:
NAD at Spearit Sound:
http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/t743.asp
Marantz at Accessories4Less:
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/MARSR5600
Harman/Kardon sells their refurbs through Ebay under the name Harman Direct. |
Bronze Member Username: Usernamex
London
England
Post Number: 54
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 09:18 am: |
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Silas, NAD has just replaced the T743 with the NAD T744. Very little difference between models as far as I can see, but might mean there are bargain demo model /clearance stock to be had?
"Yeh my dvd player has both Dolby and DTS, but when i listen to music it never plays in Dolby or DTS. Instead the Yamaha receiver receives it as an analog feed so it goes strate to Pro Logic II."
Errm, if I've understood that right, your using the Xbox as a cd player rather than your dvd player as you think your amp is dumming down dolby digital from a music cd into a lesser prologic signal?
My apologies if I've got that wrong, but I think you've confused a couple of things. I've tried to explain some points below.
First off, a normal music cd contains wav files encoded as PCM, there is no dolby digital or DTS on the cd. Second, since your dvd is connected with an optical cable, it is sending a digital signal, not analogue. In this case, the decoder in the Yamaha is doing the digital to analogue conversion, not the x-box, and it should in theory sound much better. Last, Prologic II is a dsp mode used by the receiver to split a stereo signal into multichannel. You're not missing a dolby digital or DTS signal when playing standard cd's.
Hope that helps!
Mike |
Bronze Member Username: Usernamex
London
England
Post Number: 55
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 09:23 am: |
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"In this case, the decoder in the Yamaha is doing the digital to analogue conversion, not the x-box, and it should in theory sound much better."
oops, that should read...
In this case, the decoder in the Yamaha is doing the digital to analogue conversion, and it should in theory sound much better than the x-box. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 111
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 11:50 am: |
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Hmm thanx for all the help, but i really don't find that the dvd player puts out better sound than the xbox? i just dont notice it. Another reason i use the xbox is because u can burn the cd's to the hard-drive. I took a look at the Nad t743 and the things i read about it sound good, but its still a little to much over my budget. Maybe if i wait a little longer they will come down even more. 
Marantz receiver any good? -
http://cgi.ebay.com/Marantz-ER2500-6-1-Channel-Receiver-NEW_W0QQitemZ30007573840 5QQihZ020QQcategoryZ14981QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3286
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 12:35 pm: |
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It's not a good idea to get a DVD player in a receiver. 3 reasons, you get limited inputs/outputs when the player is built in, a receiver gets hot, heat is the DVD players enemy, whenever anything is all-in-one, the components used are cheaper quality than when buying seperate. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 112
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
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Dam its like the only 1 i can afford plus it has a 3 year warranty. |
Gold Member Username: Hawk
Highlands Ranch,
CO
USA
Post Number: 1159
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 05:22 pm: |
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silas:
I have not heard that receiver, but it appears to be a "lifestyle" type unit, which, usually, means it is not a particularly high quality unit (think Home Theater in a box level).
Check out this one instead:
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/MARSR4600BLKA
Also brand new with a 3 year warranty. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 113
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 07:02 pm: |
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Wow that things a beast for $270, but only has 80x7watts my yamaha has 110x5watts, u realy think it will make my system sound better? how much would i get if i sell my Yamaha? thanx Hawk |
Bronze Member Username: Usernamex
London
England
Post Number: 57
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 06:07 am: |
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Hi Silas, for 2nd hand prices, I normally start at half the recommended retail, add a more to the price if its a current model with packaging etc, or take it bit off if its older or shabby.
As for power, I think Hawks post earlier was a pretty good explanantion. The main point was the power ratings completely depend how the manufactures test them. Like infomercials, is that abflex really responsible for giving that obese old man a six pack? or was it the diet and personal trainer they forgot to mention.
A good example is my current amp versus an old one box system I had for a while. The NAD amp only claims 70 watts per channel, but NAD say it can do this all day every day powering all 6 channels, driving normal speakers. I had a small one box sony dvd/amp for a while (while my proper gear was in storage). This tiny sony claimed 100 watts per channel. I bet the sony could hit 100 watt driving one speaker only, probably only for half a second before it melted. A bit of a give away to which one really had more power was that the NAD weighed a hefty 20kg's, and the sony weighed about 4kg. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 114
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 03:09 pm: |
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lol good explanation thanks mike I think i might just go for the marantz, sounds like a good deal to me. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 115
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 04:22 pm: |
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Check this beauty out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Harmon-Kardon-AVR-140-Home-Theater-Reciever_W0QQitemZ1700776 82995QQihZ007QQcategoryZ39794QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
Gold Member Username: Hawk
Highlands Ranch,
CO
USA
Post Number: 1162
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:19 pm: |
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silas:
1. Expect your Yamaha to only push 50% of its rated power when driving 5 speakers. Yamahas are rated driving only two channels at a time. In reality, it is probably only 55 wpc x 5, and even then the output section will sound constipated since the power supply is at its limits.
2. Marantz is one of only five receiver makers who make receivers priced below $1K and whose products will actually achieve their rated power when driving 5 channels or more. Yes, I do think you will hear an improvement in you sound. Furthermore, if you can spend just another $50, you can get this Marantz which will do 90 wpc x 7, so if you only drive 5 channels, it will probably do 100 wpc or better:
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/MARSR5600
As I have written many times, forget about how many watts a receiver is claimed to produce--more often than not, it is a LIE.
Good luck! |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 116
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
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Ok, thank you Hawk for the advice. I think ill save for the marantz instead. I have noticed today when i pushed my system near its limits that the subwoofer could not keep up with the surround sound speakers. Like there was no ware near as much bass as the mids and highs if u no wt i mean!! I'm not sure if this is my sub or receiver, but its making my music sound dull and lacking bass, any advice? Thanx, Silas... |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 117
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 06:11 pm: |
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what about this sub would this work well with the marantz receiver? |
Bronze Member Username: Usernamex
London
England
Post Number: 66
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 06:40 pm: |
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Do you know your cross over frequency? Try checking your speaker settings in your receiver. Your speakers should be set to "small" and crossover frequency maybe 100Hz. Also, although it is true it is hard to localise deep bass and therefore it can come from one speaker (a sub) instead of all five speakers, sub position in the room still does matter. Placement can change the tone and amount of bass. Try placing the sub where you normally sit and then walk about the room until the bass sounds good (not unnecessarily the loudest bass). Put the sub where you are standing, then and take a seat and see how that sounds. Actually, the surface it sits on may make a difference too, for example if its a smaller unit wobbling about on thick carpet without spikes maybe? If its still bad, I guess you might need to replace it. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 118
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 07:57 pm: |
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I have my sub next to the couch, in my bedroom, but i usually sit on the bed. The reason i haven't put the sub next to my bed is because the cable is not long enough. Yes my speakers are set to small, but im not sure how to check my crossover frequency? Yeh the 8" woofer (especially on music) just sounds like its gonna tare out the housing sometimes and really does not sound healthy. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3290
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 04:37 pm: |
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The crossover frequency is in the sound menus. It is preset to 80Hz, I prefer it at 100Hz. Press menu and select manual setup, sound menu, speaker set, it's in there. You can also set bass output to front, sub, or both in the same place. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 119
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 05:18 pm: |
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Cant seem to find the crossover frequency? tried you method David, but i still could not locate it? |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3291
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 08:01 pm: |
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If it's not there, it isn't user adjustable. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 120
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 08:12 pm: |
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S**t thats annoying, yeh all it says is "sound menu" theres no manual set-up section!! arrr think i might end up buying the marantz if this receiver cant even control the crossover frequencies.
Cheap old Yamaha lol |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3292
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:53 am: |
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It really isn't a big deal, at least not for me. My sub itself lets me adjust the crossover too. I don't use my sub for tunes, I turn it off and use 2 channels. Tunes sound far better on 2 channels than in surround, in my opinion anyway. |
Silver Member Username: Silas92
Post Number: 121
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 05:15 pm: |
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Yeh but with speakers the size of them, u kinda need a sub!! and as i listening to allot of hip-hop/rap u really need allot of bass. |
