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Thread: Low End Upconerting 5.1 DVD Players |
    
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 30
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 09:39 pm: |
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Hi Guys,
I'm back with more problems. As always, thanks in advance for the advice.
I am not satisfied with my current Panasonic Ht-730 480p DVD player. I want something like the Sony DVP-NS75H or the Samsung DVD-HD860. The catch with these devices is that, while they have apparently smashing video quality, they only support stereo outputs. I would like to get this upconverted video signal and the 5.1 audio that I have come to expect. The last thing is that I don't want to spend a lot of money. I've seen upconverters with 5.1 but usually you have to buy the whole stupid package with six new speakers. If anyone could offer some sort of solution, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks, Stefan |
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Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3232
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 10:27 pm: |
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I don't think there's such a thing as an upconverting player that doesn't have digital outputs. Look at the Oppo players, they get rave reviews. I'm considering buying one as soon as they get the one I want in stock. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 31
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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David,
Thanks, but as I have found out, much to my utter frustration, the Panasonic HT-730 is, well, "cheap", singularly lacking in any sort of useful input or output. I was actually looking for something along the lines of an upconverting player that can drive 6 speakers, but those speakers aren't actually included in the package.
Thanks, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3234
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:13 pm: |
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No player by itself will drive speakers. Sounds like you need a receiver and a player. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 32
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:35 pm: |
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My current Panasonic both plays DVD's and drives my 5.1 system. I was wondering how to get a "Home Theatre in a Box" that didn't have speakers included and was upconverting.
Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 33
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:36 pm: |
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My current Panasonic both plays DVD's and drives my 5.1 system. I was looking for a "Home Theatre in a Box" that didn't include the speakers and was upconverting.
Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 34
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:39 pm: |
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Sorry,
Damn, I keep doing that and it won't let me delete them ("template error") whatever that means.
Sorry, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3236
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:04 am: |
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I don't think you can find an HTIB without speakers, unless you could buy a used one on ebay or something. |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12514
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 02:39 pm: |
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An HTIB without speakers are usually called receivers 
What is your budget? |
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Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 35
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:21 pm: |
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Berny,
Sadly, my budget is low. At most, I would spend 300-500 dollars. Also, do they make receivers that upconvert?
Thanks, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3239
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:24 pm: |
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Yes, there are receivers that upconvert. |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12522
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:27 pm: |
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What are your current speakers? |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12523
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:32 pm: |
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Or are you planning on using the Panasonic speakers that came with your HTIB? |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 36
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 07:30 pm: |
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Guys,
Fortunately for me, my father loaned me his DCM Time Windows from back in the day. These two replaced the Panasonic fronts. I kept the HTIB surrounds and center and sub though. If there is a reciever that could provide me with good video and was able to act as a decent amplifier for the DCMs off an external input like a HDCD player, I would be willing to spend about 750 bucks. Thanks for the advice,
Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 37
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 09:58 pm: |
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Hi,
Quick note,I changed my name.
Thanks,
Stefan |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12544
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 11:07 am: |
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What is the impedance load of the DCM? |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12545
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 11:12 am: |
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If they are 8ohm speakers take a look at the Pioneer 1016. Use the money within your budget to take a look at another DVD player. like the Oppo. Upconverting from your Panasonic is not going to give you better results. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3240
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
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Upconverting from a standard DVD player definitely looks better than standard DVDs, even with progressive. My HDTV upconverts everything, it looks far better than standard DVDs without upconversion. It's only limited by how good the DVDs look to begin with. A poor quality transfer will have limited upconversion benefits, but a newer movie with a good quality transfer is amazing. Do some searching for receivers with the best upconversion, if they are as good as my HDTV, you won't be disappointed. I don't know about receivers, but on DVD players, you have to use HDMI or DVI to get upconversion, it doesn't work with components. |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12547
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 01:47 pm: |
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Excellent point. You have to look at your TV or monitor as well. If you are on a limited budget, your choices will reciprocate. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 38
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 06:06 pm: |
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A little more background,
I have a native resoltution of 1080p on my 50 inch SXRD, so that is definetly not a problem. Also, I got a really nice Acoustic Research HDMI cable for Christmas. If it is all the same, then I would like to consolidate my A/V devices. However, if a upconverting DVD Player/ Receiver could improve the signal quality of an external input, such as a XBOX 360 over a component connection, then I would take that as a major bonus. I don't know anything about the SXRD doing any upscaling internally, so I don't know how to respond to that advice. Berny, I think that I may have confused you. I am not even considering continued use of the Panasonic DVD player if I am able to purchase a new one. Last, I was reading through the thread again as I am writing this and it seems to me as if you are recommending that I get a better Standard DVD player and then the receiver will do the upconverting. The way that I envisioned this setup was the DVD player would be doing the upconverting and drive the audio element. That is an interesting proposal, but wouldn't that be more expensive to buy two devices. Anyway, now I am thoroughly confused and as always, I appreciate your advice.
Thanks, Stefan |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12551
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 06:21 pm: |
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Yup, indeed, I was under the impression that you still want to use the Panasonic.
My recommendation stands, though. Use the Oppo DVD player that upconverts, I believe up to 1080P, depending on the model and get the Pioneer 1016 to handle the audio signals. I am not a strong supporter of receivers that up converts. I want the internal components to be concentrating on the audio side of the equation.
It should still be within your budget. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 39
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 06:36 pm: |
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Berny,
Great tip on the Pioneer 1016!
I read Steve Guttenburg's CNET review and my mouth was watering until I saw two things, although many would consider these minor. First, I was very upset that it didn't convert Component to HDMI. Dammit. So much for upconverted XBOX. Although I would consider compromising because of the 7.1 support and the THX and the nice video and the iPod dock and the front amplifier. Secondly, "and the onscreen menu display doesn't work via HDMI." I didn't really understand what that meant. But, I would readily accept the $150 Oppo/ $400 1016 combo. In an unrelated matter, I am absolutely in love with my SXRD, but, it is 50", and as the saying goes, bigger is better. I was ecstatic to discover that the 60" is available for under 2200 dollars. As a Tv enthusiast, this tv is the best thing that ever happened. I just wanted to recommend to anyone looking for a tv that this is definetly the way to go.
Thanks, Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 40
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 06:46 pm: |
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Quickly,
I forgot to ask, would the DVD Player and the receiver require me to have two HDMI cables?
By this I mean one to connect the DVD to the receiver and one to connect the receiver to the tv, because this might be an unneccesary expense. Also, are there any cables that you guys would casually recommend.
Thanks, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3241
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 07:28 pm: |
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The 970 Oppo for $150 doesn't upconvert to 1080p, it's 1080i. The one that does upconvert to 1080p, the 981 for $230, uses a Faroudja chip that's well known for macroblocks. I wouldn't buy a Faroudja player myself, but to each his own. Are you sure that TV doesn't upconvert? If it does, there's no need for another player. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 41
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 07:42 pm: |
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David
I am more than ok with 1080i from a 150 dollar DVD player. To the SXRD upconverting, I have no idea, and I can't seem to find out. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3242
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 09:23 pm: |
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I'd think you could tell by PQ if it's upconverting or not. I don't know about that TV, but the upconversion can't be turned on/off on mine, it upconverts everything, unless it's a 1080i HDMI signal to begin with. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 42
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 09:39 pm: |
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David
Based on PQ comparison between hd cable and DVD's, it appears that the tv doesn't upscale internally. Although a line from the owner's manual did give me pause. The owners manual is available on sonystyle.com. If anyone knows then it would be extremely helpful to me.
Thanks, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3243
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 11:45 pm: |
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True HD and upconversion don't look the same. If you're used to watching DVDs on a standard TV, upconverted DVDs look pretty good. They're never going to look like true HD though. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3244
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 12:01 am: |
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If you look at page 9 in the manual, if I'm looking at the right manual, it looks like it upconverts everything. I don't think a $150 DVD player is going to upconvert as good as a $2000 TV. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 43
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 01:01 am: |
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David,
Sorry, my last post was made in haste. Here is a link to my owner's manual: http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/KDS A2000.pdf
With the Upconverting DVD player I am not expecting miracles. However, I do watch CSI: MIAMI in HD digital cable, and it is stunning at a purported resolution of 720p. Then, I watched "The Sentinel" on DVD (at 480p). By comparison, the HD digital cable was unspeakably better. The difference was mind-bending. While I am looking for a significant difference in the new DVD player, even a somewhat minimal improvement in video quality would make it worth it for me. But, are you're saying 'the $150 Oppo won't look better than the lower quality Panasonic because the TV is actually responsible for upscaling the video signal"?
Thanks for your continued advice, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3246
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 10:44 am: |
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Look on page 8 at DRC, it looks to me like that's Sony's version of upconversion. It says it remaps the NTSC signal to near HD quality. I don't use 480p on my HDTV, it causes problems, I use 480i. Progressive has to go through more processing. Since the TV processes the signal anyway, it's better to feed it a raw signal.
I haven't tried the Oppo, so I don't know how good it is. If the upscaler in the Oppo is better than the Sony, it would look better. I've got a Toshiba DVD recorder with upconversion, they are supposed to be close to as good as Oppo, but the HDMI cable I bought hasn't come yet. I was hoping it would come yesterday, hopefully today. I can report back wheather it's better than the TV upconversion after I get the cable and try it out. The Oppo isn't available anywhere now anyway. I should have the cable before the Oppo is available. Oppo told me they were expecting the 970 tomorrow and would start shipping Monday. |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12561
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 11:05 am: |
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I apologize for the tangent Stefan:
David,
Are you getting the Oppo DVD player? I would like to read about your views on it, if you don't mind. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 44
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 01:47 pm: |
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David
Like Berny, I am intersted your views on the Oppo player. Unfortunately, my opportunity to get my hands on a device is only for a limited time, so I would appreciate advice soon. Also, I look forward to hearing about your new HDMI. Later today I am going to a high end electronics store to see about the internal upscaler in my tv. I will have the information sometime this afternoon and it will allow me to communicate to you exactly what I am looking for.
Thanks, Stefan |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3247
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 01:49 pm: |
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I'm going to try the upconversion on my Toshiba DVD recorder and decide from there. Supposedly the Toshiba is almost as good as the Oppo, so I'll try it first. Hopefully my HDMI cable will come today. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3248
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 01:52 pm: |
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It just came as I was typing that last post. I'll try some side by side comparison with the TV and DVD upconversion and post results. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3249
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:23 pm: |
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Alright, after some side by side testing of the Toshiba upconversion compared to the TV upconversion, I see no significant difference. If anything I think the TV may look very slightly better, but that may just be the difference in picture settings between the DVD player and DVD recorder. My HDTV I'm using is just a 30" widescreen CRT TV.
Stefan, your TV is a lot more expensive than mine was, so I'd think the upconversion on yours would be better than it is on mine. I'm thinking buying an Oppo would just be a waste of money for me. Your mileage may vary. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 45
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:33 pm: |
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David
Thanks for the info. Also, how was the HDMI cable?
What type of cable is it? And if someone could answer this question from one of my earlier posts: If I end up using a DVD player and a receiver then would I need to get another HDMI cable?
On another subject, if I do get the receiver then I would probably want a new semi high end Center speaker. Any recommendations, or, is it even worth it?
Thanks, Stefan |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12563
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:59 pm: |
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If you do end up with a receiver, you may want to look at a center speaker, preferably from the same speaker maker that made your front l/r speakers.
I think it is worth it, but there are others who maintain that they prefer a stereo set-up. It is a matter of personal preference. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3250
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 05:11 pm: |
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The cable was just bought on ebay, it doesn't have a name on it. I just bought it to try the Toshiba upconversion. Maybe it would be different on your TV, or the Oppo might be better than the Toshiba. I don't see any difference between using the upconversion on the Toshiba, a $400 DVD recorder, and just letting the TV upconvert my DVD player. My player has a 12 bit processor, most are 10 bit. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 46
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 08:59 pm: |
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Hi Guys, back from the stereo store, a long post is coming shortly, I'm trying to get some pictures of my setup and speakers, but my brother bought a piece of crap camera and the "KODAK EasyShare software", I would not even wish this horrible fate and Osama or Hitler.
Thanks, Very Frustrated Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 47
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 09:27 pm: |
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Well, I went to my local high end electronics store and got some things done. First, the guy there said that any new (even pretty low end) DVD player will get me a better picture quality than the crappy Panasonic that I have now. Also, as David just touched on, he recommended that I search for a 12, 14, or 16 bit processor in the player to get the best quality. So, I will continue to search for a DVD player that fits my needs here. The good news is, I have seen light at the end of the tunnel in my search for an A/V receiver. The Onkyo TX-SR804 looks absolutely perfect in terms of the features and fairly minor points. The two reasons that I didn't buy one already are that, while CNET did discuss the HDMI video quality of the SR674, they didn't discuss the 804 as much. The second, and probably more important, thing is the THX 2 certification. The reason that this is an issue is that I might power the two fronts off an external amplifier in the very near future (in order to imcorporate my HIFI stereo pre amps and such). Now, what I would like to know is, even with me powering these speakers off an external stereo amp, is the THX certification worth the extra $100-150 (because the SR674 is the same thing, except with less power and no THX)?
Secondly, and this is closely related to the first part of this post and Berny's last post, in the event that all this upgrading gets approved by the people with the money (not me), I am going to get a higher end center ($100-225). I asked the guy at my local shop and he asked me about my current L/R's. I told him that they are DCM TIMEWINDOWS and he told me that they are out of buisness, which I already suspected. So, now I have to find out about my L/R's impedance and the type of tweeters and that sort of thing. Either way, he showed some $200 or so B&W piece that he claims, with a good receiver will give me a night and day difference. (As a side note, do you guys agree with that assertion?) I am mentioning this because it relates to the THX certification of the receiver. By the way, the 804(the one I would get) has 105wpc power. So, factoring in all this, is the THX certification worth anything, and if it is, do I even need the stereo power amplifier and would the THX have an effect on the new (hopefully) center channel.
Any and all insight from anyone is apprectiated, I also would welcome unorthodox solutions, just cause they are interesting,
Thanks, Stefan
(P.S.)
Some pictures of my HT and Right speaker, if anyone knows what kind of tweeter that is at a glance, I would love to know
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Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12567
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 09:56 pm: |
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Check this out.
http://www.dcmspeakers.com/heritage.htm
I would not get too excited with an Onkyo to power those particular speakers. Onkyo has weak power supplies and I tend to exclude them from any recommendation. You will hear or rather...not hear the inadequacies when playing a particularly complicated piece. An HDMI capability is not a good basis for a great receiver, convenient, yes, but until it is standardized, reconsider your purchase.
You have a great speaker system, it would be a shame if you cannot use them to it's full potential.
A THX certification is nothing special. It is just a set of parameters that certain equipment is supposed to be able to do. Any decent equipment worthy of its weight will certainly meet and exceed these parameters. And yes, you are paying extra for that logo, unnecessarily.
Again I would advise strongly against buying a receiver that wows you with it's video capabilities and extraneous features.
But I digress, if you think you will be happy with this receiver, go for it! But take things slowly and ponder what you want out of your system.
You alrady made a bad decision with the Panasonic. How and why did you end up with such a disappointing unit?
Were you looking at features, reviews, specs on paper, hearsay?
You need to go out there and look at these units for yourself and listen to them. Decide on what is really important and what you want to live with. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 48
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 10:36 pm: |
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Berny,
The Panasonic blunder was no fault of my own, it was a gift. This was two years ago when, in my price range, progressive scan was the coolest thing since sliced bread. Also, we got what we paid for because we only paid $200. Either way, what A/V reciever would you recommend in the 300-700 price range (or do you even recommend a reciever or whatever you recommend) and what would be an appropriate center channel from DCM.
Thanks, Stefan |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12570
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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For the receivers, besides the Pioneer, check out what Harman Kardon has to offer. The units they make are known for beefy power supplies and will drive your DCMs properly. For a little bit more I highly recommend Outlaw Audio Model 1070.
Contact the DCM link I provided you above and see what they make that will closely timbre match with what you currently own. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 49
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 11:13 pm: |
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I'm going to look into the two receivers you recommended, but as for timbre matching and ohms and tweeters, well, that sailed miles over my head. I'll probably visit my friends at the friendly neighborhood high end electronics store.
Also, it was suggested to me to look into NAD and Marantz and possibly Adcomm, so I will get back to you on how that went.
Thanks, Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 50
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 11:22 pm: |
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One thing I forgot,
I have a burning desire to utilize my HDMI ports.
If this is unresonable, please let me know, so that I can seek appropriate counseling. But seriously, is HDMI really worth the trouble?
Thanks, Stefan |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 51
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 01:13 am: |
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I think I found it.
Marantz SR4001
What do you guys think?
Stefan |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 12575
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 09:37 am: |
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That's also a very good unit. |
Gold Member Username: Samijubal
Post Number: 3252
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
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On my TV, the HDMI made no difference over component. That may just be that the upconverter in the recorder wasn't any better than the TV's upconverter. I'd say unless you're going to use the HDMI for true HD, don't bother. That TV should have better upconversion than any player, except maybe a Toshiba HD-DVD player, which is supposed to have amazing upconversion. |
Bronze Member Username: Tunasalad
California
US
Post Number: 52
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 01:36 pm: |
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I think that I will go with the Marantz receiver and will continue to look for a DVD player. My new beef is with the claims made by these electronics companies. A few years ago, the biggest lie on the market was cigarettes don't cause cancer. Now it is that you can get a 1080i video signal from a $100 DVD player and a standard definition disc. Before I examined this, I thought that the cheap Samsung would get me True HD from a standard source because of the magical mystery of upsampling. Even as the slightly more informed than average consumer, the advertising led me to beleive in miracles. How can these companies say these things without getting sued?
In a related matter, the Marantz has a formidable 80 wpc rating, but |
