| Author |
Thread: Top 5 starters AND relievers in the bigs (MLB) |
    
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4467
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 11:52 pm: |
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Who do you all think are the top 5?
I am basing my ranking purely on numbers and who I think is going to put up killer stats. I would say mine for this year are:
Johan Santana: Santana is always one of the most dominate pitchers in the league and moving out of the AL is only going to help his numbers. Pitchers hitting FTW. Not to mention he gets a huge boost in run support which should allow him to cash in a few more wins.
Jake Peavy: Peavy plays in one of the weakest divisions in baseball and has made opposing teams look like minor leaguers on MANY occasions in the past few years. He was the best pitcher in baseball last year, he's still pitching at Petco, he's on the same team, and he's still nasty. He's going to be dominate while threatening to lead the league in Wins, ERA, and Ks.
Brandon Webb: Brandon Webb has consistently improved his game the past four seasons and if it wasn't for Jake Peavy, Webb would have won his second straight Cy Young award in '07. He has the best sinker in baseball and he raised his strikeout numbers significantly last year. He plays on the best young team in his division and they are only getting better with age. Not to mention 'Zona is adding a great mentor and achor (if healthy) in Randy Johnson to the rotation.
Erik Bedard: Bedard has improved his numbers every year he has been in the league and last year it all came together for him. He lowered his walks and raised his strikeouts. He mowed down 221 in only 182 innings! He held opposing batters to a .212 batting average, too! While he only managed to pull out 13 wins in 28 starts, you have to realize he played for a team who only won 69 games! Moving to Seattle will be a God send for Bedard and his wins should soar.
And lastly, Scott Kazmir: It was a toss-up between him and Josh Beckett, but Kazmir was simply INCREDIBLE in the second half of last season. He went 8-3 on the lowly Devil Rays with a 2.39 ERA and 124 strikeouts in 94 innings. Supposedly he was coached to change his mechanics mid-season and those numbers were the results. I think its a sign of things to come!
Honorable mentions: Josh Beckett, C.C. Sabathia, Cole Hamels, Roy Oswalt, and Justin Verlander.
Relievers: J.J. Putz, Jon Papelbon, Joe Nathan, K-Rod, and Billy Wagner
Sorry, Yanks. After chat this just really interested me because our opinions on the matter differ so much. So much, in fact, that it made me wonder what everyone else thoughts on the matter. |
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Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 8785
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 11:57 pm: |
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Unbelievable
No one in the chat mention the name of who I think DESERVES to be top 5. I'm curious to see if the name appears. |
Gold Member Username: Pitbullguy
The poster formerly kn...
Post Number: 2883
Registered: Oct-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:16 am: |
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Not only would i put Beckett in the top 5, i'd put him #1. Come playoff time, he is as clutch as it gets. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4472
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:29 am: |
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Well, ya see, I'm talking statistically for the season. I would put Beckett number 1 in the playoffs as well. He's been untouchable, but this rating is based on regular season statistics basically. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4473
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:31 am: |
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Hence: "I am basing my ranking purely on numbers and who I think is going to put up killer stats." |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4474
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:34 am: |
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This will be a triple post, FTL but I would like to hear everyone else's picks instead of everyone harping on mine. The point was to see what kind of diversity there is between everyone's opinions. |
Gold Member Username: Pitbullguy
The poster formerly kn...
Post Number: 2884
Registered: Oct-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 02:09 am: |
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Who harped on yours? I didn't say anything about your list. I just said Beckett would be #1 for me. Don't care to make a top 5, just picking my favorite.
Not sure who Yanks is referring to, but i hope it isn't Clemens. The guy is an absolute disgrace. |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 8786
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:20 am: |
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Come on Pit, give me some credit. Of course its not Roger. |
Gold Member Username: Pitbullguy
The poster formerly kn...
Post Number: 2890
Registered: Oct-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:55 am: |
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well i assume it's a yankee, and all their players suck so i'm stumped |
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Gold Member Username: The_image_dynamic
San Diego
Post Number: 3500
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:12 pm: |
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NL
Johan Santana
Brandon Webb
Jake Peavy
Cole Hamels
John Maine
AL
Justin Verlander
Josh Beckett
Scott Kazmir
C.C. Sabathia
Eric Bedard/Felix Hernandez (tie)
Honorable Mention:
NL
Danny Haren, Chris Young, Matt Cain, Roy Oswalt, Aaron Harang
AL
Roy Halladay, Jeremy Bonderman, John Lackey, Dice-K, Fausto Carmona
Relievers (both leagues)
Jonathan Papelbon
JJ Putz
Jose Valverde
Billy Wagner
Francisco Rodriguez |
Platinum Member Username: Bestmankind
Http://www.rdaudio.net...
Post Number: 19005
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:13 pm: |
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what about saito? |
Gold Member Username: The_image_dynamic
San Diego
Post Number: 3501
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:18 pm: |
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Saito should have another big year other than the Padres pounding the crap out of him. It's hard narrowing it down to 5.... very hard. When we talked about this in chat I was throwing out names, pretty much Reece's whole list, but I had to really think about this for an actual post. |
Gold Member Username: The_image_dynamic
San Diego
Post Number: 3502
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:22 pm: |
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And Chad....
 |
Platinum Member Username: Bestmankind
Http://www.rdaudio.net...
Post Number: 19006
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:27 pm: |
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screw you and the horse you rode in. lol.
dodger blue for life. lol. |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 8791
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:20 pm: |
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I'm sitting here watching Spring Training, Dodgers vs Braves.....and I am so happy to be watching baseball again |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4487
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:57 pm: |
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me too yanks! braves ftw. |
Platinum Member Username: Bestmankind
Http://www.rdaudio.net...
Post Number: 19014
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 02:24 pm: |
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Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4502
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 07:39 pm: |
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braves THUMPED your dodgers, chad! DO WORK BRAVES! |
Platinum Member Username: Bestmankind
Http://www.rdaudio.net...
Post Number: 19025
Registered: Oct-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 07:55 pm: |
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pfffft its only spring training man. don't get your pantties in a bunch. lol |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
The kids love my rhyme...
Post Number: 4504
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 09:53 pm: |
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im not i just thought i would rub it in considering we didn't play any of our good players |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 8822
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:01 pm: |
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Cole Hammels got dumped on by the Yankees today in Spring Training.
2 inning pitched, 4 hits, 4 runs, 2 HR's given up, 18.00 era
Petitte was strong today |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 9423
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 04:20 pm: |
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All I'm going to say is Chien Ming is 5-0 with a 3.23 era. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5566
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 04:33 pm: |
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I still don't consider him top 20 He has faced one good team this year. Toronto is decent. Tampa Bay doesn't have a consistent offense at all and no pitching without Kazmir. He did pitch nicely against Boston in their first match-up and then he got DEMOLISHED by them. White sox are weak and Cleveland is just struggling. I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher, but he is nowhere close to top 5. My guess is that he will get rocked once he faces the same teams again. My picks look pretty damn good, minus my honorable mentions, but that is exactly why they are just that. |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 9424
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 05:04 pm: |
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"I still don't consider him top 20 :-)"
Please name me 20 other pitchers who are better than him. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5570
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 07:10 pm: |
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Brandon Webb, Johan Santana, John Smoltz, Jake Peavy, Cole Hamels, Dan Haren, Carlos Zambrano, Tim Lincecum, King Felix, Erik Bedard, Josh Beckett, Roy Halladay, Chris Young, Fausto Carmona, Rich Harden, C.C. Sabathia, Scott Kazmir, Aaron Harang, Dice-K, James Shields, Ben Sheets, Yovani Gallardo, Derek Lowe, Tim Hudson, Andy Pettite... Should I continue? |
Gold Member Username: Loudon
Post Number: 2393
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 07:23 pm: |
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i disagree with ur last 7 pitchers |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 9427
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 07:35 pm: |
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Where to start.....First off, Andy Pettite is not better than Chien right now and I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that. Tim Hudson is a decent pitcher but isn't anything special anymore. And Derek Lowe, I know that is a joke. He may be off to a decent start right now but lets see how he finishes lol. Yovani is solid but still isn't better than him right now. He might be later in his career but at this moment in time, I feel there is no way you can say he is better. As for Benny Sheets, dude gets hurt so often that its impossible to know. James Shields is solid (9 innings of 0 run baseball against the Sox today) and you could make an argument for him being better so far this year. Dice-K is off to a solid start but I still think hes the second best Japanese pitcher in the league. Aaron Harang is 1-3 right now. Now with that said he does have a 2.76 era (nice run support lol). Still don't think hes better than Chien. Scott Kazmir is an up and coming star in the game and will be one of the premier pitchers in the league soon. We'll see what happens when he comes back this year. CC Sabathia is a good pitcher but he also has an ERA around 7 right now and is 1-4. Rich Harden is a solid player. See what happens when he comes off the DL. Carmona is damn good and will be damn good for a while. I'd still take Chien over him. Chris Young is a good pitcher. Got hit hard one game this year so far. Be interesting to see how he ends up. Hard to say Halladay isn't good. Hes a great pitcher that can easily pitch 9 innings if hes on. He can be shaky sometimes though. Beckett is just plain good. Erik Bedard is a good pitcher. He looked good in his first game back. Felix Hernandez is a good pitcher. Timmy is great. Carlos is incredible when hes on. Dan Haren is a solid pitcher. Cole is great. Peavy is Peavy and thats enough said about him. Smoltz is off to a great start but at this point in his career, I'm not sure if he can keep it together all year. Johan is great. Webb is great.
I still feel Chien is as good or better than more than half those players listed. |
Gold Member Username: Pitbullguy
The Chicago area
Post Number: 3125
Registered: Oct-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 08:52 pm: |
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Brandon Webb is the best pitcher on the planet, period. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5571
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 09:21 pm: |
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You just proved my point completely. You think it is a joke that I put Derek Lowe on the list when its not hard to see that him and Wang have VERY similar stats BUT Wang plays for the Yankees. Their career ERAs are close and both of them are sinker ballers who rely on contact. The big difference is Lowe is a former 21 game winner, has a Cy Young under his belt, and was a former all-star closer. Wang is a decent pitcher, but that is all he is. His wins are inflated because he plays for the Yankees and thats really the only argument you have for him being a top 20 pitcher. He doesn't strike people out, he doesn't have a stellar ERA, he isn't physically gifted, he allows A LOT of hits, and he got BLISTERED in the playoffs last year.
Pettite is a better overall pitcher than Wang he has just had a couple of injury problems. When Wang can keep a sub 3 ERA for a season he can talk.
Hudson put up better numbers across the board last year EXCEPT FOR WINS. Hudson had a lower ERA, more Ks, less walks, and threw more innings than Wang last year. Wang is not even close to Hudson in terms of career numbers.
Yovani Gallardo is just better. He struck out 3 less batters than Wang in only 110 innings last season. He had and has a lower ERA and opponents are hitting .204 against him this year. Once again, if he was on the Yankees he would push for twenty wins. So why can't I say he's better? Because he is younger? You're showing no logic.
Ben Sheets has proven he is much better than Wang. It doesn't matter if they dude gets hurt, how can you say "its impossible to know" that he is better? Even when he is hurt and in and out of the lineup he puts up better numbers than Wang, excluding wins (we know why). Not to mention he is showing what he can do when he is healthy by boasting a .96 ERA with 24 Ks in 28 innings this year.
James Shields is younger than Wang and has put up better numbers through this point in his career. He has impeccable control and only issued 36 walks last year. He has a similar ERA to Wang's career, but its obvious that his game is only improving. He also K's more guys up.
Daisuke has pitched arguably the toughest schedule of any pitcher in the bigs this year and has come away from it with 3.14 ERA thus far. He has nasty stuff and with a year of MLB experience under his belt he will only get better. He strikes out a lot of hitters and has a lot of out pitches. He also plays for a good team and OBVIOUSLY that makes him a lot better than people who are on bad teams with better numbers. ;)
Aaron Harang has finally harnessed his stuff and dominates Wang is every statistical category excluding wins. He also pitches in a notorious hitters ballpark. He Ks people up in bunches and is an absolute workhorse. Put him on the Yankees and see how many games he'll win.
Kazmir has a lower career ERA, is a K machine, and he put everything together the second half of last season to put up a 2.39 ERA in the second half of the year. I doubt Wang has put together a month stretch of 2.39.
Sabathia will definitely bounce back as he showed in his last start where he struck out 11 over 6 innings. All he needed was a little confidence boost and he will be off to the races. He is much more dominant than Wang.
Why would you take Wang over Carmona? Do you have any rationale or are you just being loyal to the Yankees? It would seem to be the latter. He won the same amount of games, struck out more people, and had a lower ERA than Wang last year. He also has a lower ERA this year even with the control issues he has had.
Did you see Chris Young's numbers last year? You have no argument. If he put up those numbers on the Yankees he would have won 20 games. He strikes out a lot of hitters, has cut down giving up homers, and even after a dreadful beginning to this season he has numbers as good as Wang's.
You can't argue Wang against Halladay. You would be crazy. He's not in the same league. If Toronto's manager had any idea wtf he was doing Halladay's ERA would be a run lower. Regardless the guy has pitched 3 CG already this year. No discussion, Halladay > Wang.
Glad you recognize King Felix, Bedard, Lincecum, Big Z, Haren, Hamels, Peavy, Johan, and Webb are better than Wang. Now screw your head on straight and realize Wang is not in Smoltz's league. Do you really want me to bring out the numbers? I'm talking as a 40 year old man, not as a young "stud" in his prime. He dominates every statistical category over Wang. Give him the 5 runs a game Wang receives and he doesn't lose.
Rebuttal? |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5572
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 09:22 pm: |
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"Brandon Webb is the best pitcher on the planet, period."
x2. The dude simply owns. |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 9433
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 09:52 pm: |
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Your talking about Wang's "career" numbers when hes been in the league for 3 years. This is his fourth year. Of course old man Smoltz will have better number than Ming. Don't misread what I'm saying Reece. Smoltz is a GREAT pitcher, Hall of Famer no quiestion. But right now, at this point, at his age, I would be surprised if he kept up with how he is pitching right now. Please leave CAREER numbers out of this. Chien doesn't have any because he hasn't been in the league for that long....entering his 4th year. We are talking about who is the best pitcher RIGHT NOW. You keep on bringing up Chien doesn't have the K's to be a top notch pitcher. Who needs K's when you have a sick sinker ball and you get a shitton of ground ball outs a game? Don't mind the fact that hes getting his slider better and is getting some decent K's now. He had 8 today I think. A right handed hitter has not hit a homerun against Wang in the last 440 or so at bats. Theres some numbers for you bud. In 2006, he gave up .5 homeruns every 9 iniings pitched and held batters to a .211 batting average in a tied game. In 2007, he had a .41 homeruns given up per 9 innings which was the best in the AL. He was also the fastest person to 50 career wins since Dwight Gooden. It took Wang only 85 games to win 50. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5578
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 10:27 pm: |
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You can't base who is the best pitcher right now strictly on stats from this season. Look at Esteban Loaiza a couple of years ago. He was the best pitcher in the game for one year that doesn't mean he is top 20 or, in his case, top 100. I am not comparing Wang's career numbers to a guy like Smoltz, but it is fair to look at 3 year averages and to look at the past two seasons that have convinced you that he is a top 5 pitcher in the league.
Smoltz has put up better numbers the past 3 seasons than Wang has. He is still putting up better numbers than Wang is. He has a 3.06, 3.49, and 3.11 the past three full seasons he has pitched which is worlds better than Wang's 3.70, 3.63, and 4.02. Yeah those were his first few seasons, but in Smoltz first 3 full seasons he had a 2.94, 3.85, and 3.80 ERAs. Regardless of Wang, Smoltz numbers have done nothing but encourage the idea that he is still a great pitcher. His K numbers are still stellar, his ERA hasn't fluctuated much in the past few years, he still doesn't walk many batters, and he still baffles hitters. At 41 he still owns Wang. Regardless of age Smoltz is still a MUCH better pitcher today than Wang will EVER be.
Moving on, If you don't think Ks is an important stat then something is wrong with you. Dominant pitchers get K's. Whether or not they strike out 10 a game they manage to strike out a good amount of people. If you are striking people out that means they aren't hitting the ball. If people can't hit the ball they can't score runs. Yes, I know people can strike out 15 and still give up 5 runs, but it doesn't normally happen. As for Wang not giving up homeruns? Who cares? Johan Santana gave up 33 last year and won the Cy Young. Contact pitcher will never dominate the league. They can be solid pitchers over their careers, but they won't be spectacular.
Again you're bringing up the wins. the guy has nothing else going for him. I COULD WIN 10 GAMES FOR THE YANKEES. They came up 100 runs short of setting the record for runs scored in a season. A record previously held by one of the greatest teams of all time, the 1931 Yanks. They scored 5.97 runs per game!!!! How is at least one of their pitcher not going to win 19 games? Are you insinuating Wang is good because he gets a lot of run support because that is ridiculous. The only impressive thing about Wang's 19 wins is that he managed to get those wins with a ERA nearing 4. The offense is impressive, Wang is not. Oh yeah, you still haven't addressed why a "top 5 pitcher" had an ERA over 19 in the playoffs last year. Can you explain please? |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 9440
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:14 pm: |
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"He was the best pitcher in the game for one year that doesn't mean he is top 20 or, in his case, top 100."
That doesn't make sense. He was top 5 THAT YEAR. We aren't arguing careers.
As for Smoltz vs. Wang, obviously we both have our opinions on each. We'll see who is better at the end of the year.
I don't recall saying K's aren't important. But I will say as long as he gets the out then whats the difference. If someone gets 0 K's in one game and gets 27 outs through fly balls or ground balls giving up no runs and minimal hits, then are you going to tell me he is not good because he didn't get any K's? According to your arguing, Wangs outing against the Sox where he went 9 strong giving up 2 hits and only 3 K's and 1 earned run was a worse outing than if he hypothetically went 9 innings giving up 8 hits, 4 earned, and 12 K's?
"As for Wang not giving up homeruns? Who cares?"
Who cares? Maybe fans of the team, his teammates, anyone involved in the team, etc. If he doesn't give up homeruns and he doesn't give up many hits, then obviously he won't give up many runs, which we've witnessed this year, minus the one game against Boston.
"Again you're bringing up the wins. the guy has nothing else going for him. I COULD WIN 10 GAMES FOR THE YANKEES."
Look at his stats from last year. He gave up 4+ runs only 8 times last year out of 30 starts. If you can give up 3 or fewer runs in 22 of 30 games, then you are going to win a bunch of games no matter who's offense you have. He pitched 14 games last year when he gave up 2 or fewer runs. Also he had an era of 3.7 last year bud....the 4 era came his rookie year. |
Gold Member Username: Pitbullguy
The Chicago area
Post Number: 3126
Registered: Oct-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:19 pm: |
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I haven't read every word of this debate so i'm not siding with either party or anything but I think it's important to note how FULL OF SH!T pitching stats are!!!
First of all, wins and losses are SOOOO over-valued as a stat used to evaluate pitchers. Honestly I get sick to my stomach hearing these so-called "baseball purists" saying sh!t like "Well who cares if his ERA is 7.4, he's 12-4 so he's getting the job done". Fu<king morons. More like he sucks but he's been lucky to have his offense bail him out.
Then you've got strikeouts which don't mean a whole lot because some guys just ARE or ARE NOT strikeout pitchers. Some guys make their careers on getting guys to pop out and ground out. And an out is a fuggin out so who cares!!!
Now, ERA is a very valuable stat, but even still has to be taken with a grain of salt. If the fielders around you suck, you're gonna give up more runs. Then there's the variables involved in fields of different sizes and shapes. And even the quality of the offenses you play, it's easier for a pitcher to keep a low ERA playing in a weak division than it is for a pitcher playing in the best division.
Whip is a wonderful stat, walks & hits per inning pitched!!! Still aspects that aren't ENTIRELY under the pitchers control, but a valuable stat nonetheless.
Fact is you've got to consider the TOTAL PACKAGE to evaluate pitchers. How much run support? Quality of the opponent? Defense to back him up? ETC.... And maybe most importantly, does he perform well when it counts most? If i'm picking a pitcher to build my franchise around today, i'd probably take B-Webb, BUT that's partially based on my gut feeling. If you're going just on what guys' have PROVEN time and time again, can you argue against Beckett? Still young, and has proven to be a SICK clutch pitcher in the playoffs, absolutely stellar.
Just my $.02. I'm pretty sure Reece and Johnboi have both followed baseball for longer than I have so i'm not gonna try to engage directly with them in this argument
/rant |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5582
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:47 am: |
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"'He was the best pitcher in the game for one year that doesn't mean he is top 20 or, in his case, top 100.'"
That doesn't make sense. He was top 5 THAT YEAR. We aren't arguing careers. "
I'm not arguing careers. I'm looking at it how you do. Year by year. Esteban Loaiza was arguably the best pitcher in the game. I mean he had that great year so that means he was arguably the best, right?
When did I ever say a CG with 3 Ks is worse than a CG with 12 Ks and 4 earned? Of course its not, but I'm just saying dominant pitchers get strikeouts. The better your stuff is the more likely you will strike batters out. Its simple. Not saying you gotta K 10+ every game, but I bet you have a better game 9/10 times if you do.
I was simply making a point about the homeruns. Of course they matter. I was hoping you could pick up the sarcasm and the relation of giving up homeruns to striking out batters. Just because Wang throws a sinker doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to strike people out. Look at Brandon Webb. I was simply proving that just like you say you don't have to strike people out to be great you don't have to worry about allowing homers to be great.
And 3.70 is an "ERA nearing 4". I know the stats and they aren't impressive. Do you realize Wang won 6 games with he had a 4.50+ ERA? You know how often that happens? Not very often. He may have only given up 4+ in 8 games but he also pitched quite a few games allowing 3 earned in 6 (4.50 ERA).
Also, do you wanna make a bet on who has a better statistical year between Smoltz and Wang? That would be easy money for me. The only stat Wang compiles is wins behind a killer offense. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5583
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:54 am: |
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"First of all, wins and losses are SOOOO over-valued as a stat used to evaluate pitchers. Honestly I get sick to my stomach hearing these so-called "baseball purists" saying sh!t like "Well who cares if his ERA is 7.4, he's 12-4 so he's getting the job done". Fu<king morons. More like he sucks but he's been lucky to have his offense bail him out."
THANK YOU! I feel like that should be obvious. The Yanks have one of the, if not the, best roster in the majors (at least they should with all the money they spend). Who cares how many wins a Yankee pitcher has? Its a given he's going to get a few.
"If you're going just on what guys' have PROVEN time and time again, can you argue against Beckett?"
I can't say Beckett is THAT proven. He's great don't get me wrong, but he's never be amazing in the regular season, and he is also VERY injury prone. 2006 was the first 200IP season he ever had. He's awesome in the playoffs, but what if his injuries catch up to him? |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5602
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:04 pm: |
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Nothing? |
Gold Member Username: Nyyfan13
15 MAG
USA
Post Number: 9465
Registered: Jul-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:08 pm: |
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My bad, I forgot to respond yesterday.
I don't want to do the bet because Chien doesn't get many stats. He will pitch many innings, get many groundball outs, allow very few homeruns, and wont have a high era. He won't get too many K's, although his slider is looking nice now so that will help him a bit.
I think Wang will have a very solid year and will have an era below Smoltz |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5604
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 06:24 pm: |
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3.70 isn't a low ERA. |
Gold Member Username: The_image_dynamic
San Diego, California
Post Number: 3908
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:38 pm: |
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 |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5610
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:40 pm: |
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I would like to hear your opinion, Bradman. I am tired of arguing 1 on 1. |
Gold Member Username: The_image_dynamic
San Diego, California
Post Number: 3910
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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I am not going to take sides with anyone just tell it the way I see it. My opinion is that Wang hasn't done enough yet to be a top 10 pitcher, or even top twenty. Put him on the Padres and he is a quality third starter. He wouldn't be the ace of any team I can think of off hand, and that alone denies him from the top twenty. If he goes say 18-10, 3.20 this year then we will talk. Who knows how many wins this guy would get on a team that averages 2.9 runs a game. He may well be a future HOF'r but right now with the way he gets hit hard sometimes in streaks and has the stellar D to back up some of those mistakes... I put him somewhere in the top 30, rising steadily. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5623
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 11:02 pm: |
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couldn't have said it better. |
Gold Member Username: Redliner
Wilmington,
Ma
Post Number: 4350
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 12:49 am: |
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all i have to say
beckett
dice-k
lester
buckholz
papelbon
okajima
all you need you need to know |
Gold Member Username: Pitbullguy
The Chicago area
Post Number: 3138
Registered: Oct-06
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 02:12 am: |
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Yanks do you still say Chien-Ming Wang is better than Dice-K? I have to ask. The last time it was brought up an epic thread was born. |
Gold Member Username: Denali_on_22s
I get Bucks like Milwa...
Post Number: 5624
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 03:14 am: |
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Of course John thinks Wang is better. He thinks Wang is top 5. |
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