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Thread: NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio |
    
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 09:27 am: |
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The Sample rate albeit 48Khz 96Khz or 192 Khz is not as important as the word lenght i.e. 16, 20 or 24 bit. The BITS give the qaulity.
For copying LP's a 48Khz sampling rate with 24bit word lenghts will be more resolution than you will ever need for the final copy to the disk.
You might like to edit at a higher sample rate but for storage 48khz/24bit is more than fine.
Remember the folowing fact:
To double resolution in PCM you only need to add 1 (one)!!!!more bit. If you go from one bit to 16 bit {at the same sampling freq.} The resolution increases 65,536 times (from one step to 65,536 steps).
Please read http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm
Ps. My T533/T753 combo gets better everyday!!!
Still NO noise NO hum and no more startup problems for me!
PPS. I wonder where my family went?? oh what, that's their problem
Gerrit
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Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1281
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 09:28 am: |
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EJ,
Another good question. I do not know how much file-size compression MLP gives. I do not see that in the original pdf from Disctronics, but take a look anyway; it has a lot of other nice tables and explains about file/directory hierarchies, partition formats, and the whole business. Also their web site www.disctronics.co.uk ...it has a great glossary amongst other things. Sheer professionalism.
What I do suggest is the you can probably safely assume 96 kHz/24-bit will give twice the playing time of 192 kHz/24-bit (whatever that is), with no audio compromise, probably. You could also take some DVD-A discs and look at the actual file sizes on a computer.
I too would be interested to know about authoring software. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1282
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 09:49 am: |
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Gerritt,
I think you are quite right. What brings the awesome sound of DVD-A is the "24-bit". I have some discs presented in 44 and 48 kHz sampling frequency; they are still miles ahead of CD. I think when you go to 96 or 192 kHz you get a bigger signal - it sounds louder. BTW My "definitive" DVD-A disc has two-channel and 5.1 at the same sampling frequency, of 96 kHz. I cannot see much benefit in going to 192 kHz.
In 5.1, make sure the channels delays are correct. You don't need to do it in feet, and is my original post. It is delay in milliseconds (1 ms per foot closer that the other speakers) that counts.
Go and get your family and make them sit and listen. That's what I did.
Isn't it something....?! |
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 03:15 am: |
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John,
I was just kidding 'bout the family. My wife just loves the setup, she use it for all her photo viewing as well (mighty nice perk with these new players).
She use to hate watching HT at a friend's place 'cuase it was just boom and tweet.
Now we can watch 2 movies in a row no problem, at my friends place I couldn't sit through the trailers.
With Dolby Digital movies I let the DVD do the decoding and pass the analog to the amp. It rivals the best DTS material if done in this way. Why I don't know but it works for me.
regards
gerrit
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 03:15 am: |
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John,
I was just kidding 'bout the family. My wife just loves the setup, she use it for all her photo viewing as well (mighty nice perk with these new players).
She use to hate watching HT at a friend's place 'cuase it was just boom and tweet.
Now we can watch 2 movies in a row no problem, at my friends place I couldn't sit through the trailers.
With Dolby Digital movies I let the DVD do the decoding and pass the analog to the amp. It rivals the best DTS material if done in this way. Why I don't know but it works for me.
regards
gerrit
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 05:30 am: |
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John A; Gerrit,
Thanks for the clarification and advice. I have printed a copy of the document from the Disctronics website. The article is well written and simple to understand. I have also printed a copy of "Teaching old dogs new tricks" as I can't read too long on the screen. It is 86 pages so far! I don't mind as there is a lot to learn from the interesting discussion. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1286
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 08:47 am: |
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Gerrit,
I understood! The family thought I was mad wanting another DVD player. They don't think that, now. Wife: "Amazing; I can hear everything, even how big the hall is". Son (16)" What completely incredible sound". Etc. etc. "Just boom and tweet" LOL!
EJ,
Thanks. Great!. Please add you own opinions!
All the best. |
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| Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 04:38 pm: |
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John
I have been looking at your discussions after I found a DVD-Video from ARTS Music (www.artsmusic.de for their catalogue) which only had Stereo 24/96 PCM on. I have a T531 that can digitally transfer it to my AV Receiver T752 and play it back. I was amazed at the quality of the sound. Everything is so much better defined and the soundstage is so real. I bought a CD only player, T542, to better my listening experience about a month ago and it did improve the sound but the 24/96 (24 bits/96 khz) quality blew me away. I am now having the problem of buying the T533 (and donating the T531 to somebody) and only play DVD-Audio or buy the Marantz 6400 at just over twice the price but then have a DVD-Audio and SACD player. What would you do. It seems that artists do the one or the other, not both.
Gerrit,Arno
Go to www.kalahari.net to order your DVD-Audio's at about the same price as a new release CD. I can also give you the distributor's details for ARTS Music in South Africa. They started recording their masters in 24/96 in 1999 which make their recording exceptional. |
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| Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 04:54 pm: |
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John, Arno, EJ
On the questions of more bits/sample or more samples. I recon a higher sampling rate improves the signal more than the bits/sample. It is not about being able to reproduce 100 kHz but to sample say the highest audible frequency at 14Khz correctly. Look at http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm and that will show you that the simples of waveform, a sinus wave at 10 Khz is only sampled 4 times per cycle whereas the DVD-Audio is sampled about 19 times per cycle. The error introduced by only sampling 4 times and assuming the level of the DAC stays at the last sampled level untill the next sample becomes much lager than the different levels you can reproduce by 16 bits. |
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1314
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 06:55 pm: |
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Johan,
I have the Artsmusic Handel Messiah on order. What an excellent catalogue.
I am quite happy with DVD-A. I visited the huge record stores in London's Oxford Street recently and noticed SACD discs outnumber DVD-A discs on display by a factor of 2 or 3, but music DVD discs (DVD-V with music) outnumber both by maybe a factor of 10. SACD has already failed to achieve the market penetration Sony/Philips hoped for. Whether DVD-A prevails will depend to some extent on people getting away from the preconceived, and incorrect, idea that a DVD is only for video.
I learned here of the "sampling theorem" according to which it is possible to reconstruct a complete waveform from samples taken at up to half the frequency of its fundamental: this explains the upper limit of CD (22 kHz/44 kHz) and the high resolution formats (48/96; 96/192). So my guess is that it is the increased resolution from 16 to 24 bits that is mostly responsible for the great increase in clarity in DVD-A compared with CD.
I think SACD is important now for those listeners who wish to play music from bands or artists with contracts to tie them to that format. I am not so bothered with that, and see plenty of outstanding DVD-As, where I know the sound quality is always extraordinary. In fact, the greatly reduced size of the current DVD-A catalogues compared with CD catalogues has had the unexpected benefit, for me, of broadening the range of music I listen to. With my priorities and interests, I do not feel I am at any disadvantage having DVD-A only, at least for the time being. |
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:26 am: |
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It's a darn pitty that we as consumers always have to be at the loosing end of format wars.
From what i've heard (and listened to) DVD-A is the better of the two high resolution formats. (Thats my story and i'm sticking to it!)
Hopefully common sense will prevail and the recording industry will treat us with lots off new DVD-A releases in the near future.
Best regards
Gerrit
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1330
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 08:27 am: |
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Gerritt,
Format wars have always been with us, in one way or another. There was once a big battle between LP and Pre-recorded tape for the "audiophile" market.
What is different today is that digital encoding allows the possibility of encryption, watermarking, etc. In my view, this is SACD's built-in "hidden agenda"; otherwise, DSD makes no sense. However, if you look at DVD-A from the industry's point of view, disc manufacturers such as Disctronics are increasingly emphasising that you they copy-protect DVD-A discs, too. But copy-prectection is only really an issue for the mass market. Surely no recording company fears people copying esoteric, high-quality, low-volume discs, where the owners will usually gladly pay a premium for the original?
I note there is no blasted and despicable "regionalisation" on DVD-A, nor on music DVD-Vs where the target customer is into Opera or historic rock concerts - it would be uneconomical to do it; they just reduce the size of an already small market.
As far as the mass market goes, not many customers will pay for a new and untried format, not until enough other people have it, and they are sure there will be discs to play. LP was there, once. So was stereo. So was CD. So I think it is the "Hybrid" discs that will ease the transition, and may decide which way things will go. Early stereo LPs always had big notices "will play in mono on mono equipment" - this was reasssuring to most people. When they'd got a bunch of such LPs, and were already playing them in mono, they eventually decided it was worthwhile getting a stereo system. Today, almost everything is stereo.
At present, SACD discs have begun to be produced mostly as hybrids with CD (which gives stereo only). ALthough this is a double climb-down (Sony said originally they would not do this, and that SACD was for stereo only), there is now quite a marketing push for these SACD/Cd hybrids. In contrast, all DVD-A discs are hybrids with DVD-V, so you get multi-channel however you play them: and even DVD-V is superior to CD for sound quality, certainly with DTS format. There are only one or two DVD-A/CD hybrids. Sony-Philips own the Cd format, too, as I understand it, so it may be that the lack of DVD-A/Cd hybrids is a result of them trying to protect their interests, and keep a special privilege for SACD.
Anyway, I've made my decision, and am delighted with it. The worst that can happen is the DVD-As will become like pre-recorded open-reel tapes, a niche market. But there are still many people with big collections of reel-to-reel tapes, and who swear by them. Personally, I think so many people have DVD-V now, and enjoy surround sound, that DVD-A has a good chance of succeeding. The number of "music DVD" titles in the shops today is impressive. These are DVD-Vs with music content plus video footage. Maybe that will be the natural transition for most people.
Personally, I am quite enjoying it all. There are already more DVD-A titles than I will ever be able to afford, and plenty of choice, for my purposes. Welcome to the leading edge of recorded sound!
Keep in touch. |
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| Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 02:26 pm: |
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EJ,
Bought me a Audigy ZS Platinum Pro yesterday. With it came Cubasis VST 4. Did you get same software with your card?
My prob, First time program open OK, second time it only opens the Transport Bar. Went so far to remove all entries from registry and re-install. Same story, first time OK, second time only transport bar. How do I get the Master program visible.
So BTW, Win XP. |
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| Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 06:22 am: |
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Arno,
The Master Bar has a default which hides the Bar when it is first installed. In my case, it is hidden at the top of the screen. When the Bar is drawn out, press the right button on the mouse and there is an option to allow the Bar to be displayed full time on any part of the screen.
The software you mentioned does not come with my Audigy ZS, probably comes only with the ZS Platinum Pro. I have only 4 softwares, namely the Installation CD, WinDVD, Creative DVD Audio Sampler Disc and Feature Showcase Demo CD.
Keep in touch with the recording. In am still experimenting - editing with Sound Forge, getting the correct recording level, etc. In the Master Bar, there is a recording level which is more precise than the one in Windows's Control Panel. |
New member Username: Anna
Post Number: 7
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 06:12 pm: |
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Hello:
Why no people discuss the Pioneer DV-565A which has both DVD-A and SACD with quite cheap price similar to the NAD T533? Furthermore, is the quility of the T533 incomparable with that of the Denon DVD-2200? I am looking for a good DVD source for the NAD T763. Do I have to buy a NAD DVD player to match a NDA amplifier like DVD-2900 is better for Denon 3805. Any comments and suggestion are very appreciated. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1378
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 11:59 pm: |
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Anna,
Perhaps you can help yourself, and others, by auditioning these players. You might consider adding the Cambridge Audio Azur 540D to the list.
These are all fairly new models. Probably the Pioneer DV-565A and Denon 2200 have been around for longer, and you may find some professional reviews. These players both have SACD; the Cambridge Audio and NAD do not. All have DVD-A.
I recently read some negative comments about the sound quality of the basic Pioneer 565A (HiFi News June 2004 pages 47-49) but the reviewer seemed to me to have some sort of agenda, I could be wrong. If I were buying, I would discount that, and decide for myself.
On this forum, if you search, you will find, among others:
"Sem" who has a Pioneer 565A; "Kegger" who has a Denon 2200; "Rick Barnes" with a Cambridge Audio 540D; Several people, now, with an NAD T533 (recently decreased in price by 20% where I am - check your dealer's web page). The Denon 2900 is currently getting some praise but is rather more expensive than those others (See e.g.Plunging into Multi-channel)
Hope that helps. I see you have posted a similar question on the Denon 2200 thread (linked May 05 above) and several others. You might find that starting a new thread produces some views, and allows you and others to keep track of them.
There are some lively threads under Home Audio > DVD-Audio & SACD.
EJ, Gerrit, anyone,
I can see a way to work out how much compression (reduction in file size) MLP gives. I have a superb EMI DVD-A/DVD-V two-sided disc. It has what sounds like exactly the same stereo version of the programme on each side.
The box says:
"Side A: DVD-Video ... AC3-encoded 4.0 Surround Sound ... & 24-bit Linear PCM Stereo"
"Side B: DVD-Audio ... MLP-encoded 4.0 Surround Sound ... & 24-bit Stereo"
So my guess is that stereo version is just the same file without (Side A) and with (Side B) MLP.
My computer will tell me what is on the disc, but I have no idea what the file names and types mean.
I wonder if you can help?
Here is the "VIDEO_TS" folder of Side A (DVD-V).
Here is the "AUDIO_TS" folder of Side B (DVD-A).
Files listed by size in both cases.
Can anyone explain what the files types (suffices) mean?
Which files are comparable two-channel files?
How much compression does MLP give?
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Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 07:12 am: |
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John
According to this site - http://www.surroundassociates.com/newformats.html , MLP gives about 1.85 to 1 compression. There are also a lot of facts on the formats at this link.
Anna
I bought myself a DENON DVD-2900 after listening to the NAD T533 and having both the Marantz DV6400 and DV8400 on loan from my Hi Fi Shop. The NAD doesn't have SACD and that took it out of the picture. The Marantz DV6400 at about 80% more than the NAD seemed to be the solution but the retailer confused me by letting me experiment with both the DV6400 and the DV8400 that is about 300% the price of the DV6400. The DV6400 sounds almost as good as the DV8400 but the 8400 is really well build and the user friendlyness was far superior to the DV6400. I have a T531 player and just love the ease of use. The 6400 you had to stop whatever is playing, switch on your TV and then go through about 15 button presses to change say from 5.1 channel to stereo on SACD. I did a bit of research and found the Denons - from the 1400, the 2200 and the 2900 (Got some or other EISA Audio Player award for 2003/2004). On specs the 2200 and 2900 should be about the same audio quality but I think the 2900 is superior. The price in South Africa for the DV2900 is about 380% the price of the T533 and only double that of the DV6400 and half of the DV8400. I think you get as good if not better than the DV8400 in the DVD2900. But John has the best advise, go and listen and compare for yourself. I only had my DV2900 for 2 days and I am so impressed. It sounds better than my T542 (CD player) when playing CD's.
Anyone
I still do not want to believe that an universal DVD player can sound better than the successor of the acclaimed T541i CD player. Is this a setup error? If you have an analogue stereo signal going into one of your normal inputs of your AV Receiver, is this signal then digitized again in order to do processing like bass management etc. This means that this signal has to go through the AV receivers DAC to be converted back to analogue? My Denon is going through the 7.1 external inputs which doesn't have bass management according to the NAD T52's manual. If this is true, The quality of any component not connected to the "straight through" input will be limited by the AV receiver's DAC quality. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1389
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 09:34 am: |
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Johan,
Thanks for the link.
"If you have an analogue stereo signal going into one of your normal inputs of your AV Receiver, is this signal then digitized again in order to do processing like bass management etc.
Yes, if it is done in the receiver, and if that is what you choose. The only real benefit is if you want Prologic, EARS etc. All such matrixed surround processing is digital. Therefore, if you start with an analogue input, the signal is getting digitised with an ADC, processed, and then converted back to analogue with a DAC. Prologic and EARS sound better, with digital sources, if you use them on the digital input; you miss out that first and unnecessary ADC step. It is the same with "bass management" and channel delays. Choose a signal path with the minimum number of analogue-digital and digital-analogue convertions.
"This means that this signal has to go through the AV receivers DAC to be converted back to analogue?"
Yes, exactly. Amplification is analogue. Speakers are analogue. Sound is analogue.
The "External 5.1/7.1" input on the receiver is just like the "CD" input but with more channels: it misses out the internal ADC, processing, and DAC. It always sounds better, in my opinion, than any digital audio input.
Sometimes a digital source will have less good DACs than those in the receiver, and then, in that case, the digital connection is better. I have a Nokia satellite receiver where that is the case; its DAC is less good than the one in the receiver.
When you get to DVD-A players, the quality and resolution of the player's DACs is invariably better than those of straight CD players - they have to be, to take the much higher sample size (24 bit) and frequency (up to 192 kHz). This is why I think you should not be surprised if the Denon DVD-2900 sounds better even than the acclaimed NAD T541i. I try to say this from time to time on the "CD players" topic, but no-one seems to respond. There is simply 22 years of the myth that the CD is "perfect sound", and the feeling, I suppose, that DVD-A is some sort of extra feature of DVD-Video players, not for serious listening. This view is completely wrong, but what can you do?
My current stereo CD-only playing path is extremely simple:
Old NAD T532 analogue out -> Sony stereo power amp -> speakers.
I have never heard CDs sound so good.
Anna, and many others in her position, need to decide, first, whether they want SACD. For anyone who does, it does seem, from this forum, that Denon and Pioneer make good "universal" players at reasonable prices.
Personally I am not bothered with SACD, so I think I have got huge value for money, purely in terms of sound quality, in the NAD T533. It would be interesting, to me, to be able to compare its DVD-A performance with that of more expensive, "universal" players. I suspect the real cost of SACD is high, but difficult to the estimate. One should also remember that there are much more expensive players with no SACD; Arcam, Meridian, and a host of others. I personally would look at the Arcam DV 79 as natural competition for the Denon 2900, though it is clear that you have acquired an excellent player! |
Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 05:11 pm: |
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John
Thank you for the info. I have connected my CD player (T542) to the 7.1 external inputs (After disconnecting the DVD-player's input) and BIG WOW. I did not realise a normal CD can sound this good. I have now in the space of two days improved the sound of my system enormously.
On DVD-Audio - From the link I gave you it seems that DVD-Audio it a more planned protocol. It can within itself handle any new compressing algorithm (Although we then have to upgrade our players most probably). I have been to quite a few CD shops in Johannesburg/Sandton in South Africa and bought a couple of DVD-Audio and SACD discs. Without having a preference to a format, I am sitting with about 10 DVD-Audio disc and 1 SACD. This is Pink Floyd's Darkside of the moon and the staff didn't even knew it was a SACD. When I ask for SACD's in these shops, I get pointed to the Afrikaans (one of our local languages in South Africa) music section as they think I am referring to South African (SA) CD's.
At this stage we in South Africa to have more DVD-Audios than SACD's.
Thanks again for the info John. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1396
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 04:12 am: |
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Johan,
Great. Glad to be of service. Many record shops do not know what these discs are. Even some dealers are not aware. As I have said, people think "DVD" stands for "Digital Video Disc" , and DVD-A is some sort of compromise or add-on to a video format.
I also have about 10 DVD-A discs now. Also some "PCM Stereo" discs. I do no think DVD-A in two-channel is different from linear PCM, except for the MLP.
Several web sites from around 2000 speak of DVD-A as a "planned protocol". My new EMI DVD-A has a long note on the sleeve saying the format was not clear where they should put the "group" button. Naxos has changed where it puts the "menu" several times (it is an unlisted final chapter on some discs).
I assume you have played your DVD-A discs in DVD-A mode through the 5.1 analogue out of the Denon player....? It also works with linear PCM. If you think CDs sound good...
Loved the story about "(SA)CD". Thanks!
You might like to take a look in the category here "Home Audio > DVD-A & SACD", also at my relatively unnoticed time-bomb Home Audio > CD Players >Twilight of the Compact Disc. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1417
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 09:58 pm: |
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EJ and Gerritt,
If you are still here: Sonic. "Sonic solutions" is a professional application I have heard great things about. |
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 02:07 am: |
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John A and everyone,
I have enquired with Sonic the appropriate version to copy vinyl to DVD-A. It is priced at US$14,999! There is an LE version which is priced at US$5,999. Both supports MLP. The cheapest DVD-A authoring software that supports MLP, that I have found so far, is the Minnentonka disWelder Chrome. Even then, it is priced over US$2,000 at discount retail outlets.
The discwWlder Bronze, which supports only LPCM, however, is priced at between US$75 and US$100 at retail outlets. Recording at 96khz/24bits, and in stereo, a single layer disc is capable of accommodating approximately 2 hours as compared to 4 hours in the case of those software that supports MLP (a ratio of 1.85 compression). Since I will be recording primarily in stereo, I am inclined to purchase discWelder Bronze, unless I come across a product which supports MLP at comparable price.
I can draw some conclusion from my search to purchase a DVD-A authoring software for the past months:
1. The price indicates that they are being used by recording studios and professional recording artists, producing DVD-A discs for the "mass" market.
2. Very limited consumer market for the product.
3. Very limited knowledge, in the computer and hi-fi markets, and awareness of existence of such product.
4. Appears that Meridian is imposing a hefty levy on copyright for the MLP technology.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1424
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 08:59 am: |
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EJ,
Many, many thanks. As far as I can see, you are correct on all counts.
Two additions.
1. MLP just packs more on a disc. Discs are small, and cheap. Why not use LPCM? It is no less DVD-A.
2. Don't you think discs of all sorts are on their way out, anyway? There is an interesting thread, which Ghia started after writing above, I think. Ripping DVD-A/DTS/SACD to Computer. Networks and servers are surely the future for audio. This is why the industry is so scared, and why we have SACD at all, imho. Apple is now selling an ethernet/WiFi hub with an audio out socket. Plug it into you hifi, and off you go. Who needs discs? |
New member Username: Goldenarrow
Post Number: 5
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 02:03 pm: |
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Dumb question:
Can a DVD-A disc play on a DVD video player that outputs a DTS signal? My receiver can do the DTS decoding. This thread has piqued my interest in the subject.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1433
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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goldenarrow,
The answer is "yes". It is well worth getting a DVD-A disc. But DTS is only halfway to true DVD-A. Sorry to be brief. Please see thread linked above, at the end of my post of June 14, addressed to Johan. |
Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 07:35 am: |
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John
I will be going over to the thread you posted on June 14.A last comment here - I did play the Denon through the 5.1 analogue of my AV receiver. This was the second time I was really impressed with sound quality. The first time was when I played a DVD-Video (ARTS label - Vivaldi's Four Seasons) with a stereo 96/24 PCM track digitally throught my AV receiver with my T531. For anyone that is interested on why DVD-Audio is such a great sounding format and you have a DVD player that can output digital 96/24 and a AV receiver that can play it, do this exercise with the ARTS disc. That made me to decide that I want a player that can play high definition audio like the T533. To tell the truth, I think my CD player was the third revelation in music when I connected that through the analogue inputs. I almost want to say that I enjoy the CD player as much if not a little more than the Denon right now. I think that has to do with the limited music available on DVD-Audio and SACD and that I have the usual small rear speakers that works well with movies. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1443
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 08:08 am: |
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Johan,
Great. Thanks. I agree.
PCM Stereo is another format people can try if they are sceptical about the benefits of DVD-A. If you do not have analogue output to the receiver, you need to set "Digital Audio out" to "PCM"; and, probably, have a receiver with a high-quality (96/24) DAC.
See, also, the thread PCM Stereo |
New member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 5
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:52 pm: |
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John A.,
I may be the Johnny-come-lately kid here, but I found your detailed review of the T533 most interesting.
On the subject of SACD/DVD-A, I was browsing the Monster Cable website for some speaker cable info when I chanced upon their SACD & DVD-Audio Guide section where they said, "DVD-Audio and SACD players require 6 channels of analog audio output to pass the signal to an A/V receiver for an incredible audio experience." http://www.monstercable.com/hookup_learning/csg/sacd_dvdav/sacd_dvdav.asp
Is that true? Are they referring to 5.1 and up? I don't quite understand that statement.
Regards. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1448
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:23 am: |
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Ojophile,
Thanks. Yes, that's correct. See "What about connectivity?" on my first post, above.
In almost all player/receiver combos, you do not get DVD-A with a digital connection, and never with TOS-link optical or Co-ax. From another thread:
DVD-A requires six-channel analogue connection between the player and the receiver/amplifier. Digital won't work. It is a "format rights agreement", meaning makers are afraid of putting DVD-A processors into receivers/amps. The exception is some Pioneer models, I understand, but, there, the digital connection is "iLink" a.k.a. "Firewire". This allows "Handshaking", meaning the two devices can talk to each other briefly in order to ascertain whether they are allowed to continue to communicate. As with so much else, the goal is to make it difficult to copy audio files. In any event, you cannot get DVD-A out of the player with TOS-Link or with 75 OHM co-axial electrical cable. |
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| Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:27 am: |
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Thanks for all the fantastic advice. I'm getting my NAD T533 and T753 soon and my dealer is intending to sell me a digital co-axial cable. I don't know much about it but he highly recommends it. But after reading your advice, it definitely seems that i should not buy it. But what do i connect the DVD player with then and what sort of cable 'monkey-business' should i watch out for? Thanking you in advance. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1454
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 02:17 pm: |
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Lim,
As I wrote above on April 12, you need 6 channels (6x) of RCA interconnect to get DVD-A 5.1 from the player to the receiver. You will get 3x in the box with the T533. It is for stereo audio (2x) plus compsite video (yellow; 1x). Get one more like that, and you have 6x, and you are off. I do not know what cables will come with the T753. You will also need other interconnects; TOS-link (which I prefer) and/or 75 Ohm, co-axial RCA for digital connections (to get DTS; worth it). The same sort of 75 Ohm co-ax (but much longer) for the sub, if you have one. For video, S-video is much better than composite video (the single yellow RCA). The T533 will output component-video (75 Ohm, 3x co-ax; even better) but the T753 will not input it, so you will have to connect that direct to the TV (if it has component-video input). S-video is fine and it makes life much simpler to run everything (audio and video) through the receiver: just choose which input you want and everything works; sound and vision. I also recommend a simple 2x RCA co-axial cable for stereo e.g. CD. Chances are you already have one.
My dealer attempted to sell us a ludicrously expensive single co-ax "for DVD-A"; he did not know what he was talking about. String yours along a bit, ask him if it makes a difference which sort of co-ax (none will work), and find out how much he knows.
There is some good advice on cables and interconnects from Kegger and others (I agree with him there) on Speaker Wars. I personally would not buy cables from audio dealers, they usually have an astronomical mark-up, and a vested interest in wasting your money in that department. Go to a "hobby"-type electronics and gadget shop, e.g. Radio Shack in US.
Great combination. You will not be disappointed. Stay on good terms with the dealer, just in case; NAD vets its dealerships, so they should be OK on the electronics themselves.
Please post back! |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 19
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 09:17 pm: |
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John A.,
On the NAD website, there's a sentence in the T533 description that goes:
The T 533 supports the DTS Surround Sound formats (external decoder required) as well as the always present Dolby Surround formats – with decoded Dolby Digital (5.1) output available.
http://www.nadelectronics.com/dvd_players/T533_closerlook.htm
See "Features"
What did they mean by (external decoder required)? |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 20
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 09:19 pm: |
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Ooops, John. I think you already explained that in your review under "What does it have over the T532?", but I'm still curious about that phrase. |
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 11:11 pm: |
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I would just like to point out that in your effort to save money on cables "You will get 3x in the box with the T533. It is for stereo audio (2x) plus compsite video (yellow; 1x). Get one more like that, and you have 6x, and you are off." You have forgotten 1 crucial fact. The yellow leg of those three RCAs is a 75ohm cable designed specifically for transporting a picture where as the red and white ones are designed for audio. By the way the yellow 75ohm leg is in fact exactly the same as a coaxial digital cable which is in fact also just a 75ohm cable. Just thought I'd clear that up for everyone. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1482
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 12:58 am: |
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Gopal,
Thanks. You are correct about the need for 75 Ohm cable for video and digital audio. However, the three cables and plugs that come with the player look and feel exactly the same, and differ only in colour. Whether they have different impendances I do not know, it seems unlikely; they are all thinner than any 75 Ohm cable I have seen. But you can "get away with" a non-75 Ohm video cable, so perhaps this is the cheap, out-of-the-box compromise. I am sure two of those 3x cables will work fine for DVD-A, at least to get you going. I bought a 6-legged cable, but 3 stereo interconnects would also be just as good.
Ojophile,
my theory is that the T533 was planned to include a DTS processor. "DTS" is on the case, the box, and in the manual, as if they originally intended it as a selling point. "external decoder required" looks like a last-minute qualification. I am not sure how much difference it makes, or what the reasons were. I still find DTS better than AC-3, though I have no DTS channel delays in my receiver. What was going on there is interesting; Dolby and DTS are in direct competition. I could imagine some sort of business deal in which improved Dolby AC-3 performance was coupled with DVD-A in an excellent, inexpensive player. Dolby feels no threat from DVD-A and approves it. So maybe leaving out DTS was worth it to someone, somehow, and reduced the cost of the player. Maybe NAD just knew there was not much point in trying to improve on the DTS decoder in an NAD receiver. All this is probably reading too much into it.
Any thoughts? |
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| Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 07:01 am: |
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Lim,
The T533 / T753 Combo works really great. I've had mine now for some time and life is good..
If you decide to go with expensive IC's, just make sure that they will fit into the T753 as it's inputs are rather close together. I got cheap ($20 a pair) AR ProSeriesII's and their terminals are very big with three o-rings (for better grip LMFAO!!!). I had to resort to using every second input for my analog devices, luckily there was still more than enough input options.
It was not a problem with the 5.1 analog input from the T533.
Regards
gerrit
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1539
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 04:56 am: |
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Gerrit,
Thank for the update, and it is a pleasure to note your comments.
Anyone,
I have been given a DVD-Audio disc that the T533 simply will not play. Frank Sinatra/Count Basie "Live at the Sands" on Warner (my only Warner disc).
The "playing" icon comes on-screen and on-display ("DVD-A") for one second, then goes away, for good. the disc plays fine as DVD-Video on the NAD T532.
The Warner disc has DVD-A and DVD-V on the same side, as with Naxos discs.
Does anyone have any ideas? Has anyone else found an unplayable DVD-A disc? If so, which? |
Bronze Member Username: Goldenarrow
Post Number: 22
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:23 am: |
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John A,
Could it be a firmware or eprom update needed? The Pioneer unit I am testing has a similar issue and a replacement chip is needed to, supposedly, fix that issue. Don't know how extensive an issue it is but just a thought to pass along.
golenarrow
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1541
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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goldenarrow,
Thanks. The chance of a 2004 player needing a firmware update to play a 2003 disc seems fairly remote to me, but I shall keep your suggestion in mind. I guess I should take the disc to the dealers where I bought the player and see what they have to say. All my other discs seem to play as normal. |
Silver Member Username: Sem
Post Number: 148
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 04:04 pm: |
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John A.
That would be what I would do. If they have a T533 set up there, it would be a quick and simple test, provided its not too far from where you live. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1545
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 11:06 pm: |
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Thanks, Sem. It looks like this is the only thing to do. It will have to wait until next week.
Meanwhile, it would be really helpful to know if anyone else has played "Live at the Sands" on an NAD T533. Or any Warner DVD-A, for that matter.
If they have, and had no problem, I think it is most likely my disc, and I should go to the record shop, first. This is my first "won't play" DVD-A disc out of sixteen. I have sampled the others and they play fine, just as before. DVD-V playback performance is fine, too.
I wonder, also, if other players allow you to choose DVD-V on a mixed side of DVD-A/DVD-V? The NAD automatically chooses the best format. This is not always what you want. Especially if it does not play. |
Silver Member Username: Sem
Post Number: 149
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 09:05 am: |
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By DVD-V, do you mean dolby 5.1 surround, audio only? Because there is no video on my disc, aside from the normal pictures, credits, etc. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1549
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 09:26 am: |
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S | |
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