Change Arros or change arcam?

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 144
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 11:51 pm:

Just a question. If I would change something in my stereo set up – Totem Arro’s by-amped with Arcam AVR350, squeezebox as a source(and no I will never change a squeezebox – I love flexibility and play mostly wave or flac format) – what would make noticeable difference? Change Arro’s maybe for Hawk or change AVR350 maybe entry level McIntosh?
But if I would make any change – I would have to be able to hear this change. Any comments?

Pablo

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13123
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 02:43 am:

Good to see you again Pablo.

How much attention have you paid to your room?

The Arcam is fine and so are the speakers, I think.

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 145
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 09:33 am:

Hi Nuck
The room is living room open concept with kitchen and it will not change. It is not separate listening designated room. It is regular living room with all the furniture, flowers, my son's toys....I am not saying there is anything wrong with the set up but maybe in few months I will get HT speakers for the basement. I was thinking maybe Totem tribe or hawk as main speakers? Not sure yet Or maybe just dreamcatcher?. I have now AVR250 there and I thought maybe during the same time I can do something with stereo set up. But I would only touch it if difference was noticeable . I hooked up Forest once with AVR350 and did not like too much. Hawks could be an option. Or maybe McIntosh. But probably MA6300 would be all I could afford in McIntosh line and I am not sure how good it is comparing to AVR350. With MA6300 I would probably need a DAC as well. Now I am using AVR350's build in dac and it is a big difrence vs connecting squeezebox using analog. MA6300 does not have a DAC. Also now I have Arros by-amped. MA6300 - cant do it. But I was told that with a OK DAC(less then 1000) MA6300 - Arro combination would be a big upgrade. A noticeable one.

Does this ever end???

Pablo

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13125
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 10:36 am:

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13126
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 10:37 am:

That seems a pretty hard line betweent the flexibility of a good Arcam AVR and a 2 channel Mac.

Gold Member

Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire
UK

Post Number: 3771
Registered: Sep-04

Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 11:44 am:

I am a little concerned at the quality of the digital signal from the Squeezebox. There are better line-level streamers such as Linn's DS units (there's more than one) or the fully integrated CD/streamer/tuner/amplifier that is the Naim uniti (which can stream your music without the need for the Squeezebox - one box does it all, and sounds fab).

If you must stick with the Squeezebox, how about a dedicated 2-channel integrated amplifier with a spanking built-in DAC such as the Cyrus Xpd or Naim SuperNAIT or Bryston B100SST with optional DAC module?

You can then move the 350 downstairs and enjoy better quality sound for movies.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10508
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 12:59 pm:

Don't your solutions cost a fortune Frank? They don't seem to be a viable alternative to the Squeezebox for folks with regular income. Do you know of something in the same neighborhood cost wise as the Squeezebox?

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13149
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 01:53 pm:

Like for beer income budget?

mmmmmmmmmmmm beeeeeer

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 2914
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 07:13 pm:

I'm pretty sure the Arro/6300 would be a significant upgrade, based on my personal experience (I have a 6300).

What kind of music do you listen to Pablo? I know the Arros are very well suited to certain types of music. Also, the listening area seems rather large for the Arros.

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3428
Registered: May-05

Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 08:28 pm:

Different speakers will most likely make the biggest sounding change. Speakers color the sound more than anything else.

That doesn't mean they'll be the best change or even an upgrade.

I'd see what a different DAC would sound like. Many sellers have in home trial periods like Music Direct. Being in Canada changes things a bit, so you should confirm what the policy is.

Benchmark sells direct with I believe a 90 day in home trial. Maybe that's what'll scratch your itch?

The Bryston BDA-1 is sublime BTW. For $2k, it should be

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 146
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 12:23 am:

Hi
Frank - squezeebox stays!!! Just got new iphone and will get ipeng to control my music. Like I mentioned - flexibility and convenience. I love it!
Would you rate Bryston B100SST higher then MA6300? I heard really good stuff about 6300. But probably B100SST with DAC would cost similar to 6300 alone. I was told that bryston would be more mechanical comparing to warm mcintosh
David - When I go more for spanish guitar, or jazzy piano like Bebo and Cigala in Lagrimas negras or Pink Floyd, U2...my wife listens more dancing or pop, latest hits... I have to admit Arros shine with details but they lack a bit with pop/dance or hard rock.(or is it Arcam's fault?) I will probably get home 6300 and Bryston one day from StereoPlus and see. Do not think they can get Naim?
Naim uniti looks interesting not sure how much it would be in Canada - probably around 5K
I will probably bring Hawks as well to try but like I mention if I do something it would be speakers or receiver and I have to notice the change.

Stu - I can get some stuff from my dealer to try so I will do for sure.
Squeezebox has also transporter version with decent DAC but this is over 2K

Every time I do something I think this is it. And after a while - there we go again...

Pablo

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 2917
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 06:51 am:

You're description of Bryston vs. McIntosh is quite good Pablo. I wouldn't say that the MacIntosh is better than Bryston, just different. The Mac is smooth whereas Bryston tends to be very precise.

Yup, the Arros shine at playing acoustic, vocal and jazz music, but aren't so good for playing rock or pop (I've found).

Are you in Ottawa? Stereoplus is where I bought my 6300 from! They don't carry Naim, but Planet of Sound on Bank St. does. Send me a PM if you want to talk more.

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3430
Registered: May-05

Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 12:34 pm:

If you can afford a Bryston B100 SST with DAC, its a must audition. The Mac 6300 is also a must audition. Keep in mind that without a DAC, the system will only be as good as the Squeezebox's analog outs, regardless of how good the rest of the system is.

Bryston is a bit more attack and clarity oriented, whereas Mac is a bit more warm and smooth oriented. Those aren't absolute discriptions of either, just relative to each other. Neither one is truly better than the other IMO, its a matter of taste. I prefer Bryston, due to my preception of what live music sounds like, but others believe Mac may sound more realistic.

Its your ears, no one else's. You really should hear both, even if you're not 100% sure you want to change the amp. At least you'll know how your gear compares to what's available, and it'll help you further understand what you're really after.

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 147
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 11:16 pm:

interesting review on Bryston (with squeezebox)
http://bryston.com/pdfs/07/34628_eprint.pdf

Gold Member

Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire
UK

Post Number: 3776
Registered: Sep-04

Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:39 am:

Art,

Yes, the ones I suggested cost a lot (but not a fortune). I admit it. I love decent quality stereo. Sue me. :-)

In fact, the suggestions I made are more related to the market I know, rather than suggesting them just because they're expensive. I also wanted to ensure an upgrade for Pablo who is looking for one after all.

Pablo,

The reason I suggested the quality integrated with digital inputs is because the biggest weakness of the Squeezebox is its DAC section. It's not that it's bad, but it is entry level. Using the Squeezebox with the AVR350 got around this issue. The only way to improve is to keep in the digital world until you get to the amplifier, or to upgrade the Squeezebox. There is someone who takes a Squeezebox and replaces the DAC section with an audiophile solution - the price of the Squeezebox Plus is around £2000 on its own. (That's another option of course.)

So that's why I suggested the Bryston/Naim/Cyrus. Those all have solutions which will take the digital output of the SB and use their superior DACs to great effect. I would NOT use an MA6300 because the quality of the SB will not be in the same league. It's a bit like putting a £300 CD player in front of a £2000 amplifier - a recipe for disaster.

Tha Arros are very engaging speakers in my view. Yes the Hawks are better, but I still feel that your real bottleneck is the SB's analogue section.

Frank.

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 148
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:23 pm:

Frank
I realize the squeezebox is a bottle neck but only if one uses it's DAC But I am not. That is why I got AVR350 and not a stereo receiver. B100 SST with DAC would be excellent choice. If choice is 6300 or other stereo amp - there of cause have to be separate DAC as well or slimdevices transporter. I've already tested squeezebox with Arcam and there is big diffrence when squeezebox's DAC is used vs Arcam's. So the question remains - Hawks(or other) or difrent receiver (that has DAC or separate DAC) I would never connect squeezebox to 6300 directly. As you pointed - no sense.

Pablo

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10535
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 07:51 am:

Yeah Frank I didn't think you made the suggestions because they were expensive.

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 149
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 04:54 pm:

Do you guys know how much MA6300 and B100 SST with DAC are going for in Canada?

Superc468

New member

Username: Superc468

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-09

Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 06:29 pm:

great question - would love to know myself

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10536
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 07:26 pm:

Use the dealer locator on their website and give one a call.

Gold Member

Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire
UK

Post Number: 3782
Registered: Sep-04

Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 12:06 pm:

Hmmm, Pablo, in response to your last post, I'm not sure which is the best way forward to be completely honest. My gut feeling is that you'd be better off with a better amplification stage, but the Arros can be a bit ... basic. Lots of fun and engaging but limited in what they can do. Don't get me wrong - they're brilliant speakers and the AVR350 is also a very capable receiver, but if you were truly looking for an upgrade we have to look at where the weaknesses lie and what will give you the biggest bang for your buck.

I think if it really came to it, in a normal sized room I'd probably say the amplifier is the weak point.

Possibly...

Sorry, best I can do...

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 150
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 03:32 pm:

Just checked MA6300 - around $4300, B100 SST with DAC $5000. I have to do some good thinking because this is a lot of $$. I will for sure try to bring both home ant try it.
Frank, I spoke to the dealer and his opinion is the same. If change one - go for amplifier.

Pablo

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13203
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 04:30 pm:

Pablo, you really need to hear these two VERY different amps...

regardless of source.

Nick K

Gold Member

Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2721
Registered: Jun-07

Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 08:42 pm:

I agree. Both are very different. Must be auditioned in the home Pablo. Both the 6300 and 100sst are SICK.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13212
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 10:14 pm:

Pablo, I bought a MA6900 amp for 4000 cash a few months ago from CAM , I suggest you look for that one. The EQ (while I eschew it's very existence) is set at 10k kneed up a few db's.
The Mac build is there, the EQ is seamless, and I mean transparant.
This unit lacks only in maximum output, but it is 200++ watts.

I consider this to be a fine Mac offering, barring very difficult speakers, and a lifetime worth of listening, so long as I like it.

So far, I do.

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 151
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 08:32 am:

Thanks for all the info, I will try to get them both to listen with Arro's. Then I will have to think about the price - depends if the listening difference is significant enough to justify the upgrade. Maybe I can use AVR250 (currently in my HT) as a trade in and bring AVR350 to HT??? At the end is a $$

Pablo

Gold Member

Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire
UK

Post Number: 3785
Registered: Sep-04

Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 01:29 pm:

Hey, if you're looking at $5000 amplifiers, you'd be crazy not to listen to a Naim SuperNAIT too if you can find a Naim dealer in your area (ok, so I'm a Naim dealer on Saturdays, but ...). That's got the DAC built-in and costs around $4000. Just add Naim speaker cable.

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 152
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 10:10 am:

Frank
Well first my dealer does not cary Naim. Yes I can get it elsewhere but I am getting good prices at my dealer. Second I read lots of forums where people were comparing supernait with MA6300 and MA6900 and with most reviews naim could not touch mcintosh. Almost the same comparing with Bryston B100. Can't comment on this, only what I have read. Also Naim is bit short on power. Hard call

Nick K

Gold Member

Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2723
Registered: Jun-07

Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 03:29 pm:

Pablo, were you in fact reading this on a all MAC- gang s1#t forum.lol. The NAIM, and Bryston, easily compare to both those MAC products. They do things better than MAC does, and MAC do a few things better as well. Depends on the listening preference. I would say NAIM is easily in MAC's league.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10559
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 03:36 pm:

I agree with Nick. Naim is in an exclusive league relative to quality. I certainly don't like Mac any better than Naim...listened to them both many times. Both are great names for a reason.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13229
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 09:39 pm:

Naim does not need comparisons, it is fine alone, tyvm.

Now the Rega Isis stuff...

Gold Member

Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire
UK

Post Number: 3789
Registered: Sep-04

Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 06:38 pm:

Pablo,

Well, if you've always hankered after the McIntosh, and you've got a good dealer then I'm hardly one to stop you. I'm just glad you're considering something in what one could call true audiophile stakes.

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3436
Registered: May-05

Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 10:29 am:

Its very hard to go wrong with Naim, Bryston, or Mac. People have their preferences, but they're all equal IMO. If someone says one is truly better than the other, they either don't know much about this hobby or they're trying to sell you what they have.

The SuperNait should have no problem driving the Arros. Its only short on power on paper.

We all have preferences and favorites.

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3437
Registered: May-05

Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 10:33 am:

George

Silver Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 909
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 08:31 pm:

Hicups Stu? lol....Good points.

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 2934
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 08:29 pm:

lol... It's very true Stu. Having owned both Bryston and McIntosh (no experience with Naim) I say honestly say they're equal. Very different, but equal in quality. In a perfect world, I'd have 2 systems - one Mac and one Bryston.

I heard Arros driven by Bryston gear a thousand times. A very good match.

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3450
Registered: May-05

Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 09:25 pm:

SimAudio is also a very good match with the Arros. Their integrateds are what really got me loving the Arros.

Sim has optional DAC cards for their integrateds for a relatively decent price.

Have you heard the Sim integrateds Pablo?

Silver Member

Username: Pablo

Post Number: 153
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 08:22 am:

Stu - no I have not, I know moon series has excelent reviews. But I think when it is a time to do this I will choose betwen bryston and mcintosh

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 2938
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 09:00 am:

You really can't go wrong with either one.

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3452
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 10:08 am:

I wouldn't dismiss Sim either Pablo. They're in that class too. Their entry level is lower than Bryston and Mac's entry level, but equally priced stuff is equally good IMO. Different, but just as good.

Sim is a bit polite and can be called pedestrian, especially in the highs. It will probably be most similar to Arcam than the rest of the bunch. Better than the Arcam in probably every way, yet still being similar.

Gold Member

Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire
UK

Post Number: 3792
Registered: Sep-04

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 01:41 pm:

David, no Naim experience? Hmmm...must be remedied...MWAHAHAHA

And SimAudio is also a fine brand from what I've heard. I didn't think it pedestrian myself when I heard it, but then different environments can do that...

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 2939
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 02:38 pm:

Frank, my wife will kill me!

Gold Member

Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York
USA

Post Number: 3454
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 05:27 pm:

Frank - I don't think its pedestrian either, but I've heard others call it that. That's what I meant by "can be called pedestrian." I guess I was a bit misleading.

David -
You won't go hear Naim!
(How do you type the sarcastic kid's voice?)

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 2940
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 05:31 pm:

There is a Naim dealer in town....

Hmmmmm.

Nick K

Gold Member

Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2737
Registered: Jun-07

Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 09:07 pm:

Just heard the Sim Audio Moon Integrated ( I forget which one) and the Totem Arro's last night actually. Very good. Source was also a Sim product. Very very good stuff.