Wharfedale Evolution2-10

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 259
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 10:31 pm:

I sent you a PM George, after I got yours via email.

Does anyone here know how to actually check for PMs while logged into ecoustics? For the life of me I cannot find it. I only know I got a PM when I check my email, and I don't check that email account every day.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13410
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 11:00 pm:

Does your email not notify you, Dan?
Bad email, bad.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 260
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 11:04 pm:

It does, but it's like I said, I don't check that email account every day. Most forums will notify you right on the forum when you get a PM, and you can check it on the forum. I guess not this one.

Silver Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 964
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 11:28 pm:

My work email is attached to eCoustics, 'cause that's what I see most often and they lock me outta hotmail, gmail, yahoo and the like at work. Whatta ya expect, I work for a bank.
So the trouble is on the weekends and in the evenings I need to take special effort to get out my token and dial into the secure server if I want to read my emails. So no ding when I get my email.
I used to have a Blackberry but they pulled that when all the recession woes began...

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 261
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 10:36 pm:

I found a very interesting website that I've only skimmed a little, about speaker design.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design1.html

Page 2 has some insight into the sound of different drivers and I think the brashness I hear in some music out of the Evo-2's is down to the kevlar drivers. I guess these will loosen up a little over time. We shall see. Some songs truly sound fantastic, that kevlar driver has it's benefits for sure when fed by the YBA (the bass on kick drums is astonishing), but overall I prefer the more typical paper driver and the smoothness it offers. It only makes sense that one of the biggest things determining the characteristics of the sound you hear will be the drivers themselves. I hear a lot of similarities out of these that I heard with my old Quads.

Long term the Wharfedale's will move to HT use, which was really the plan from the beginning. For now I'll just enjoy them, even on songs that they may not be the best for. PMC, Proac, or Dynaudio will be my next step speaker-wise.

Below is the relevant part of the article for those interested:

"Rigidity means accelerations from the voice coil are accurately translated into cone or dome acceleration over the entire driver surface; this translates to ruler-flat frequency response, fast pulse risetime, low IM distortion and a transparent, "see-through" quality to the sound.

Audiophiles usually describe this type of sound as "fast," much to the dismay of measurement-oriented engineers. "How can a woofer possibly be fast, since the crossover limits the pulse risetime to a tenth of what any tweeter can do?" This leads to what diplomats discreetly call a "full and frank exchange of views," in other words, a shouting match.

As usual, both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. They�re just speaking about different things. The audiophile is unwittingly describing uniform cone motion, and it can be indirectly measured by the absence of IM distortion, a flat frequency response in the working range, and good pulse response with a smooth and quick decay signature.

Well, that�s great, you might think, just make the cone, or dome, or whatever as rigid as possible. How about a metal, like aluminum, perhaps? That�s nice and strong, and it can be formed into nearly any shape.

You can see the direction this is taking. Remember, bells are made of metal! Another problem raises its head ... resonance! After all, why does a bell, or any other rigid material, ring so long, for many thousands of cycles?

We need to take a close look at how the mechanical energy gets released (if it didn't get released the bell would ring forever). Well, obviously there are some resistive losses in the bell itself; even in a vacuum the bell will quit ringing after a while. The major loss path is through the air; in effect, the air discharges the stored mechanical energy of the ringing bell. But since there is a very large mismatch between the density of the air and the metal, the coupling is very inefficient, and the bell rings for a long time before all of the energy gets discharged.

Well, guess what? All of these things happen in a speaker cone, too! The cone is much denser than air, resulting in the typically low efficiency of most direct-radiators. (89dB at one metre with 1 watt input corresponds to an absolute efficiency of a mere 0.5%) In addition, the air is so weakly coupled that it doesn't help much with damping the cone (unlike a large-area electrostat or magnetic-planar). We can only look for help from two sources; amplifier damping, which controls the voice-coil, and the intrinsic self-damping properties of the cone and the surround.

We�d like the amplifier, acting through the voice coil, to stop the cone or dome, not have the cone keep playing a tune all by itself. Unfortunately, the voice coil represents only a small portion of the cone area, and the rest of the cone may have almost no self-damping, particularly if it is made of metal, carbon-fiber, or Kevlar. One way to control the problem is to extend a rubber surround partway down the cone, and pay a lot of attention to the damping behavior of the spider and surround materials. (I have heard from several sources that Kurt Mueller of Germany makes rubber surrounds with superior damping qualities.)

At present, though, even the best Kevlar, carbon-fiber, or aluminum cones show at least one high-Q peak at the top of the working range, requiring a sharp crossover, a notch filter, or both to control the peak. Unfortunately, this peak usually falls in a region between 3 and 5 kHz, right where the ear is most sensitive to resonant coloration.

Most audiophiles and magazine reviewers are unaware of the sonic signature of Kevlar or carbon-fiber resonance, misidentifying it as "amplifier sensitivity," "room sensitivity," or other problems that point away from the real culprit. Since few reviewers have auditioned the raw, unmodified sound of commonly-used drivers, they can�t evaluate how much "Kevlar sound," or "aluminum sound," remains as a residue in the finished design. It is the task of the designer to skillfully manage the crossover and cabinet profile to minimize the driver coloration. Despite advertising claims or the opinions of nationally famous reviewers, the characteristic signature of a driver can never be removed completely.

When working with rigid-cone drivers, there are some hard choices to make: if you lower the crossover frequency to minimize driver coloration, tweeter IM distortion skyrockets, resulting in raspy, distorted high frequencies at mid-to-high listening levels; if you raise the crossover frequency to improve the sound of the tweeter, the rigid-driver breakup creeps in, resulting in a forward, aggressive sound at moderate listening levels, and complete breakup at high levels. (Unlike paper cones, Kevlar, metal, and carbon fibers do not go into gradual breakup.) With the drivers we have today, the best all-around compromise is a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th-order (12-24dB/Oct.) crossover with an additional notch filter tuned to remove the most significant HF resonance of the midbass driver.

I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and aluminum drivers very much ... but no question about it, they are very difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.

As mentioned above, rigid cones have advantages, but they are difficult to damp completely. An alternative approach is to use a cone material that is made from a highly lossy material (traditionally, this was plastic-doped paper, but this has been supplanted by polypropylene in most modern loudspeakers). The cone then damps itself, progressively losing energy as the impulse from the voice coil spreads outwards across the cone surface. The choice of spider and surround are then much less critical.

This type of material typically measures quite flat and also allows a simple 6dB/Octave crossover; personally, though, I don't care for the sound of many polypropylene drivers, finding them rather vague and blurry-sounding at low-to-medium listening levels. Without access to a B&K swept IM distortion analyzer, I have to resort to guesswork, but I strongly suspect that this type of driver has fairly high IM distortion since it is a soft cone material.

It is quite difficult to make a material that has perfectly linear mechanical attenuation. In the electrical world, we expect resistors to have almost zero distortion. In the mechanical world, though, lossy (soft) materials tend to have weird hysteresis modes, and linear behavior cannot be taken for granted. This is the source of the IM distortion in the midband of a driver's frequency range, where the displacement is low, and it is operating in a constant-acceleration regime. In short, it has moderate cone (or dome) flex, but it isn't the all-or-nothing gross breakup that people see in the acoustic holography pictures.

I suspect (without proof) this is the problem for many soft-dome tweeters and midrange domes; the driver is actually flexing throughout the entire frequency range, but the lossy damping material hides this from the instrumentation (but not the ear). To overcome this, the best cone drivers (Scan-Speak, Vifa, and Seas) are actually composites, adding silica, talc, or metal dust to the plastic cone, which significantly improve rigidity without losing the characteristic polypropylene smoothness."

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10691
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 11:00 pm:

Here ya go Dan. It's about system synergy and something in your system or room and your Wharfedales aren't getting along. If they don't sound bright with my Yamaha AVR or any other amp I've thrown at them then I'm comfortable saying that they probably aren't bight or harsh. That's not a criticism of your hearing, instead it's a call to ask you to look deeper.

I think smooth might be a complaint many folks would have about them.

The Tannoy Mercury's are definitely not going to be bright and it hardly seems fair to compare the Evo's to the PMC's...if it were you'd own them.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 272
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 08:55 pm:

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree, Art. It's not the room, since the PMC's and Tannoy's were in the same room (and the Tannoys in the exact same spot). Only difference was the speaker. Smoothness out of the Tannoy's, harshness out of the Evo2's.

So if not the room, could it be the system? Perhaps. But that same system made the Tannoy's sound better than I've ever heard them. Obviously the YBA amp and Arcam player is a big step up from my Denon mini-system. If it's going to have to come down to the YBA or the Wharfedale, the Wharfedale is going to lose. I'm just not going to give up this amp. That said, I don't see myself getting rid of the Evo2's. For HT they will do a great job.

Do you put any credence into what that article says? That it validates what my ears are telling me (with the Quads and the Wharfedales, not to mention the PMC's and Tannoy's), and from a scientific standpoint to boot, pretty much seals it in my mind. That different materials sound different and have different properties just makes sense to me.

Nevertheless, I'll be using the anti jumpers and continuing to break in the Evo2's, and I will see how they sound in a few months time. I understand that Kevlar drivers take a long time to break in. It's the stiffness that is causing the edginess that I'm hearing, so if they loosen up it stands to reason they will begin to sound a lot nicer. Maybe I've made too big a deal out of this. Maybe I should've let them break in first.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13449
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 09:27 pm:

Sharing and discussion are what we are all about, Dan, no problem.
It seems punishing that some speaker need more run in time than warranty coverage, LOL!

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10694
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 10:42 pm:

Dan there was more than just the speaker that was different and you'll have to agree to disagree with at least a couple of us. As I stated one other difference is the synergy between pieces whether cables or components. If there is a size difference then there very well could be a placement difference even if they are sitting in the same spot. Strange as it may seem I didn't need an article to know that different materials sound different. Just not buying that it's the speaker, and not because I own the speaker, but because I've tried the speaker in several applications and in a lively room where damn near everything but the DeVores and the Evo 2's were bright and edgy...makes no sense to me.

Ofcourse you can sell the Wharfedales tomorrow and It doesn't matter to me. I think we all suggested you keep the PMC's after all they are better...

BTW are the speakers on stands yet. A lot of variables you have not explored. Good luck.

Silver Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 993
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 10:45 pm:

I would totally agree that fixing everything else in a speaker, changing the material of the cones will make a difference in the sound. As well, all speakers do sound different. I've haven't heard the Evo's but have heard the 9's and would have a hard time imagining them as bright. I compared
Wharfedale's to the RS6 and found the Wharfe's tame but who know Dan, you could very well have found a unique problem with yours. I'm sure you ears are telling you what you're hearding. Do you still have your Denon system? Can you try it on that?

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13455
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 12:27 am:

Stands.

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1005
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 09:01 am:

Oh, yeah Nuck...

Dan, you wouldn't still be making the audiophile sin of having you speakers on a dresser / cabinet where the resonances could be messing up hearing the real speaker.

Good reminder Nuck.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 273
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 01:46 pm:

Okay...

The speaker cable I am using right now is not long enough to accommodate stands, but that will change soon and I'll have the Evo's up on stands. We've had this discussion before, I am skeptical. It seems that if a speaker is on anything but a speaker stand that people automatically think it must be a cheap piece of furniture that will transmit vibrations and resonances and mess up the sound. Not all furniture is created equal. I can assure you the desk these are on is extremely heavy and rapping on it shows that it does not transmit sound readily. I can't prove this to you guys, you'll just have to take my word for it. Furthermore, I put rubber feet on my speakers. I've just never been disappointed in what I've heard (out of my Energy's initially, then Tannoy, then PMC) to feel the desk was unsuitable. Furthermore, many speaker manufacturers state that their speakers can go on a desk or other piece of furniture.

All that said, I will try stands, maybe they will open my eyes.

Art, no just the speaker changed. I unplugged the F2 and plugged in the Evo2-10. Nothing else was done. You make a good point about speaker size, I hadn't considered that. The speakers are the same exact height, the woofer is the same exact height, but the tweeter on the Evo2 is at a higher level. I listen to music with my ears at tweeter height. But I can't change the height at which Wharfedale set the tweeter. Furthermore, when I am moving about the room, not just sitting in front of the speakers, I can still hear the Evo2 brightness.

Now if there is something going on synergy wise between the components and cables, well that's something you can solve only by swapping something else in. If anything, moving to all copper cables, which I am doing, should help...but changing cables will not lead to drastic changes in sound.

So I am willing to play around. But all that said, I still feel that a speaker driver has it's own inherent sound. I mean, that article goes into it in detail why this is so and why a kevlar driver sounds as it does. Is anyone just dismissing it? Seems like it. I have to say that this amazes me. I'm still trusting in the science more than all the little audiophile tweaks that I can try. Though I will try them, since it doesn't hurt to try. For the record, I think a good break in period is what is required more than anything else. Whether that is enough or not, only time will tell.

What has happened so far is that two speakers with paper drivers sounded fine to my ears, and the two speakers that are similar in key respects sound similar, i.e. a bit too thin and bright. This doesn't shock me, especially in light of the physics. Sorry guys, just how I feel. But don't get me wrong, I'll do what is suggested. Break in, new cables (was going to do these two things anyhow), and stands. Will see what happens.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 87
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 02:31 pm:

Wow, I guess I stopped getting the emails for replies on this thread so I assumed people kind of lost interest, but apparently not.

First of all, I know it's late, but please except my condolences Mordecai. Hopefully you and your family are doing alright, I know how tough that can be. My best wishes to you and your family.

Dan, I don't think it's that anyone's dismissing you, it's just that quite a few of us own these speakers and from what I've read and experienced for myself none of us have encountered what you describe, despite what the article says. I'm still running mine on a cheap Onkyo AVR and they aren't in the least bit bright or harsh. In fact the first word I usually describe them with is smooth.

I do think stands will help improve the overall sound as people are telling you; I tried my set in a near-field configuration on my desk and they weren't nearly was good. I still wouldn't call them bright (I'm not even sure how I'd describe it), but they certainly weren't as nice to listen to. I think the reasoning for that is the port being located so low needs room to breathe. It's not that the desk is transmitting vibrations, it's just not allowing the port to function properly (at least that's what I thought I was hearing when I had them on my desk). I'm sure other people could elaborate more on this, or just tell me that I'm straight up wrong as I very well could be, but there was a very noticeable difference between desk and stands.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 274
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 02:57 pm:

Thanks for the input freddie. That kind of makes sense to me, how the desk may interact with the ports.

I'm not sure that "bright" is an apt descriptor for what I'm hearing. The treble is quite restrained, not harsh at all. What I am hearing I believe is in the upper end of the woofer.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2492
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 06:06 pm:

I agree, my Quads need at least two and a half feet from the wall. Dan, please try this little experiment:

get some blu-tak or adhesive paper (something that won't damage the speaker finish, and fix a sheet of tissue over the tweeter, try one layer, then two or three or more. When the tweeter high frequencies are significently damped see if that harshness still exists. I know you are blaming the Kevlar drivers (which I too cannot understand) but maybe this will at least help to either dispel or qualify your opinion.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13495
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 06:19 pm:

Stands

David Mitchell

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 3053
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 06:24 pm:

DIY stands, even better.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2494
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 06:24 pm:

Stands to reason.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 275
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 07:13 pm:

M.R., what I am hearing in the kevlar drivers is discussed in the article. Not sure what else to say. I guess it's up to each person to decide if they believe it or not. I tend to think that science has credibility, but evidently not everyone thinks as highly of it as I do.

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1012
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 07:54 pm:

Dan L, if it's the kevlar, which is a woven fabric, I assume it would losen up with time and use. Give it a good break-in and then report back on the changes.
I think all the guys are saying is that if the kevlar is the culprit or not - there is no way you can fairly evaluate the sound without adequate stands. You need to narrow down the variables. You mentioned already that it can't be the system, so let's park that for now. You need to now address the next obvious problem and thats the stands. Sink a few bucks into a pir or go the route Dave did and build your own.
Dave - I'm still waiting for the details on your construction.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13504
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 07:55 pm:

I do, Dan, but you have not exercised the chassis of the speaker to its intended flexure, which may allow the baffle to align for the drivers tendencies.

Buy that man a beer!

Chris H

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 673
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 08:05 pm:

Dan, it's got nothing to do with believing you, or "the article". The article is a viewpoint, and someone's view of the world. Sure, materials matter. But not all paper cone speakers sound the same (far from it) so I suppose it makes sense that all kevlar drivers don't sound the same either.

It's good that you are still willing to experiment. That will allow you to decide for yourself. But park "the article" for a bit and trust your ears, and the ears of others who actually have significant listening experience with the speakers (albeit with different ears). I have yet to read a review of these speakers that used the word "harsh". Noone (other that you) on this forum have described them as such. There is some science in that as well, don't you think ?

David Mitchell

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 3058
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 08:07 pm:

The construction was simple George. Have you seen the pics on the Mani thread?

40 some odd bucks of material.... 2 12x12" tiles, 2 10x10 concrete slabs, 4" ABS pipe, bag of sand, 2 pieces of MDF and PL Bulldog grip.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 276
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 08:42 pm:

Chris,

No worries. I think the article is more than a viewpoint, it's an attempt to explain sound from a speaker drawing on a knowledge of physics. It is, to some degree if not all the way, fact rather than opinion.

I searched online for other reviews who see the speakers as I do. I admit there aren't many, though someone on another forum said the speaker is part of the ring and tizz club, or something along that vain. So I'm not alone!

But yes, I have lots more listening to do. I'm not tossing these speakers (not yet at least). Tomorrow I will see what difference the anti-jumpers make (got them in the mail today!).

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2499
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 10:22 pm:

Don't worry Dan, we're all afflicted with this madness one way or another.

Fact - Kevlar speakers are harsh.

Who wants to buy my Quads, I don't want no harsh speakers

NMyTree

Silver Member

Username: Nmytree

Post Number: 283
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 12:43 pm:

You also have to remember that article was written in 2001....2002.

Since then Wharfedale and several other driver manufactors have experimented with variations of Kevlar and Carbon Fibre in different blends and even sandwhiching different materials together.

If I remember correctly, the Evo2 and Opus2 versions use a blend or sandwhich of two or three different materials for the cone.

Even my Jamo speakers use a sandwhich blend of pulp/paper and fibreglass. No harshness, brightness or brassness from those drivers.

The problem may simply be a synergy problem with your gearm and room acoustics and kevlar based drivers. That's a very real possibility.

Or, it may simply be that with your own individual, unique hearing; kevlar is unappealing to your own ears. We all hear differently and we all have different sensitivities to certain frequencies and tones.

What Dan is experiencing may in fact be a very real, but exclusive experience....to his own hearing.

I personally have never heard an aluminum or metal driver (or tweeter) that I liked. For some reason they are always very unappealing to me and their sound bugs me. Personal hearing sensitivity.

No one is wrong here.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is....Sam Adams Summer Ale Rules!!!

I just stashed a case and a half away in my second refridgerator, to get me through the fall and winter.

Delicious...yummy

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13521
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 02:12 pm:

That will last the fall and winter of this week here.

Dan, don't make me type 'stands' again, LOL!

David Mitchell

Gold Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 3067
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 02:41 pm:

I just bought the Summer Ale last night. Good stuff!

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 278
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 01:20 am:

Hooked up the anti jumpers. I believe they have smoothed things out a bit and added a little more warmth to the mix. I'm quite happy with them. The process continues...I'm going to try to tack on a lot of hours of break-in in the coming weeks. I doubt I've even got 20 hours on these speakers yet.

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1016
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 09:53 pm:

I'll save Nuck and repeat it for him:

stands, stands, stands, Stands, Stands, Stands, STANDS, STANDS, STANDS!....great, I woke up my kids.

No really Dan, a little investment for a lot of pleasure - sssssstttttttannnnnnnddddddddsssssssss to infinity and beyond.....

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1017
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 09:54 pm:

Hand

STANDS!

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2504
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 10:05 pm:

Dan can't STAND his Evos!

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 279
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 11:02 pm:

I don't want to stand, I like listening more when I'm sitting down. I tried standing but the tweeters were not at ear level. Tweeters should be at ear level - this is basic stuff guys!

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2912
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 10:44 pm:

Dan, when you sit, your ears are higher than a then the EVO2-10 on a 24" stand? That's pretty high?

From Mapleshade Records:

"Nearly everybody sits too high. The "tweeters at ear level"rule sounds logical but fails when tested. For a test, sit on one or two phone books: you'll hear an amazing new warmth and fullness in baritone voice, trombones, tenor sax, plucked bass�and a far more natural treble balance."

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/generalupgrades.php

These are kind of nice:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Custom-Built-SOLID-MAPLE-Heavy-Duty-Speaker-Stands_W0QQitemZ 390018337717QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5acee78bb5&_trksid=p4 634.c0.m14.l1262

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 283
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 11:53 pm:

Is part of the problem my source? Seems that way. I switched up the Arcam DV135 for my Marantz DV7001 and I'm a bit surprised that there is a huge improvement, mostly in the way of pacing. I know Marantz isn't synonymous with pacing, but compared to the Arcam the music seems to be moving along at a quicker pace, it's all very cohesive now. Maybe the Arcam is a little too laid back for me, or just not as great a match with the rest of the system. I wasn't even really aware of the problem (had a suspicion though), until I hooked up the Marantz. I think the Marantz is giving up a little detail and clarity, but not enough to cause concern, because overall it just sounds a lot better. Interesting.

I'm not sure if this switch will tame the harshness I was hearing at all yet. Haven't listened enough CDs to be able to say. The one disc I've listened to wasn't one of the most problematic.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 284
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 12:33 am:

I'm thinking a lot of the harshness is gone now too. With the DV7001 it sounds like a thin sheet is covering the speakers compared to the Arcam, which frankly was a little too (looks at the Stereophile glossary):

clinical: Sound that is pristinely clean but wholly uninvolving

Yeah, that's it. Didn't expect Marantz to be the brand that cleaned these qualities up, but at least this particular player has done it. Less detail, not as great imaging, but also a lot less clinical and a lot more musical.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10725
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 12:52 am:

System matching is key Dan. Careful research with forethought can yield great results...just as often I find I just stumble into a great match. Sounds like you've found something that works and that's excellent. These days I just listen to music without any thought about whether it will sound great, I just know it will.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 285
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 12:59 am:

I guess you were right, Art. Something wasn't right, and that something was the Arcam. I'm sure it's a great player though, and would sound phenomenal partnered with an Arcam amp and a different set of speakers.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2927
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 01:41 am:

Gotta love that Marantz!

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 90
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 01:57 am:

So with that issue aside, how are you liking them? I too am using a Marantz CDP albeit a much lesser one, but I haven't run into any of the issues you described so I'd think it's a good combo regardless. Can't wait until I can ditch the AVR and try a real amp on them.

And I know I praised this quality before, but I feel like I need to mention it again as I have them playing as I type this and it's outstanding. Drum reproduction (especially snare) is very convincing and realistic (though the same can be said for almost all aspects of the speaker IMO). It's teaching me what timing, speed, attack, etc are all about. There really isn't anything about these speakers that I don't like.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 286
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 02:08 am:

Well maybe this is funny, but after proclaiming how much I love the Marantz I may be buying a new CDP tomorrow. I have the chance to trade in some gear (I still have my Quads, my old Energy speakers, my Arcam, and maybe my Denon minisystem too) and put it towards a new source. I'll post about my experience in the CD forum.

The Marantz was going to be traded in too but after today's listening I think I'll keep it. It'll be used for SACD and DVD-A discs. The plan was always to get a standalone CDP for redbook discs. I can also use the Marantz as a DVD player, hooked up to my PC monitor (when I get an HD monitor, hopefully the player's upconversion will look great on it).

Chris, you're using a Marantz player too, are you not? So three of us are and it seems to work. I guess Marantz and Wharfedale get along quite well.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2929
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 02:32 am:

Yes, it would seem so.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2930
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 09:34 am:

I was hyping my DV7600 when AC4L was practically giving them away for $250 about a year ago (I had paid $350 for mine a few months earlier). It was a stupid good deal that I wish more of my eCoustic buds had taken advantage of. Is it flawless, of course not, but you would need to have spent about 3-4X that amount to begin to approach the Marantz.

If anyone is looking for anyone KILLER budget DVD/CD Player, look no further than the HK DVD38 for $39.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-DVD-38-Video-Audio-DVD-CD-Player-w-HDMI_W0QQit emZ150373095039QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDVD_Players_Recorders?hash=item2302ef567f&_trk sid=p3286.c0.m14

Beside the fact that it will upscale DVDs to 1080i via HDMI, it is a dead quite, straight forward, great sounding player.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 289
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 03:06 am:

More listening today. Though much improved overall with the Marantz, I still sense too much energy in some parts. I want to give the Evo's a fair shake, so will give them lots of break in. I'll have them running continuously for a week or two. I'll even put them on stands. If that doesn't do it then maybe they just aren't for me. It's a good thing I've hung onto my Tannoy's, I may be needing them.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2943
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 05:54 pm:

Dan, let's continue things on this thread.

I must have lost track that you had sent these back to STO already. Please keep us up to date, I really hope IAG does the right thing.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 311
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 06:27 pm:

I'll let you know how things go. This weekend I am going to see if I can isolate the harsh quality in the sound to the one speaker that makes the noise when I knock on it. It's something that IAG may want to know (and that I'm obviously curious about as well).

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13615
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 06:31 pm:

IAG might earn a fan letter yet.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 312
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 07:11 pm:

I know I can ship it to them and have them look at it. At the very least. Whether they want to do more than that or not I guess only time will tell.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10769
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 07:31 pm:

Don't you have Tannoy Mercurys of some sort Dan. Why don't you post a pic of them just for the heck of it. You probably already have and I don't know where to find it.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 313
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/511803.jpg

I have Art, it's in the pics thread. This link takes you to the pic (Tannoy pictured along with my old Energy C-1). Love the look, they've got kind of a modern/vintage thing going.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10774
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 11:19 pm:

Thanks for the link. I have a couple of friends who are Tannoy dealers and one of them still has a Mercury HT setup going on. Also one of the sales people owns a set of the floorstanders.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 314
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 11:33 pm:

You know, the more I think about it when I upgrade to PMC or whatever I get, I may buy the Tannoy towers and center and use the F2 as rears in a HT set up. Or I may just use the F2 in a 2.1 setup. Not sure I really want to do 5.1.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10775
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 11:53 pm:

I'm enjoying my Evo's for HT.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 92
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Saturday, October 03, 2009 - 12:17 pm:

Do you have any pictures of them in your HT Art?

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 328
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

Called the number posted on the IAG America web site, in California. Out of service. Called the number in the Evo2 manual, I think it's in Maine. Wrong number. I downloaded a manual for their newest product, the Diamond 10. Checked what it says there. It says for the U.S. you can send your speakers for service to the address on the page. Looked at the page. No U.S. address showing, only UK and China. Emailed Wharfedale through their website, which is where you can select if it's a service or sales inquiry. Emailed them Monday. Today is Thursday. No reply.

Not very impressive for "Britain's Most Famous Loudspeakers".

I guess they've almost moved all operations they had in North America out. Even the distribution is pretty scarce, isn't it? Is there a dealer that actively carries Wharfedale? I think I read that Wild West is the only one.

But I don't really care anymore. I'm not interested in shipping the speakers anywhere anyhow. I'm bringing them to a local place to get checked. It'll be easier and ultimately cheaper too I'm sure.

Thanks a whole bunch IAG!

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2970
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:19 pm:

Stella Chang

stella.chang@iagamerica.com

President
IAG UK
Mobile: +44 07834541070
Tel: +44 01480-447700
Fax: +44 01480-431767

IAG House
5 Sovereign Court,
Ermine Business Park,
Huntingdon, Cambs. PE29 6XU, England

webbsite: www.internationalaudiogroup.com

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2971
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:22 pm:

Is this the number you tried? (425) 861-3909

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2972
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:29 pm:

Never mind, I just checked that last number and it's disconnected too.

I would hope STO S/V would be able to provide you with a number?

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10824
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:34 pm:

If you bought the speakers from Mike at STO, please contact him. He gave me the his Wharfedale distributor's email address some time ago and I deleted it after I emailed them to compliment Mike's service. Why aren't you contacting Mike? I thought you bought from him.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2973
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:36 pm:

I've found this info, at least the number works & has a voice mail-box

IAG America
15 Walpole Park South, Walpole, MA 02801.

Tel: (508) 850-3950

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS281US281&q=15%20Walpole%20Park%20South%2C%20Walpole%2C%20MA%2002801&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 329
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:42 pm:

Nope, the number in my manual is in Massachusetts (I said Maine, that was wrong). I also tried 951-360-6688, which is California, and is posted on the IAG website. The Washington number you posted may be the right one, but is not posted in all of Wharfedale's literature. For instance, my Evo2 manual has the Massachusetts number. When I went online I thought I'd check their newest products to get the newest number (the Diamond 10 series), but that has no U.S. number listed (only China and the UK). Now I check Wharfedale's Evo2 manual online and the Washington number is in there! What is going on???

I appreciate the effort Chris, but I'm sticking to local service. Bringing the speakers to a place on Saturday to be checked out. Wharfedale's got my email, they've chosen to not be responsive, and I'll be sure to let lots of people know about that.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 93
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:45 pm:

The guy in Mass (Bob) is a nice guy, he's who I talked to about my tweeter not sitting flush when I first got them. I'd at least give him a call to see what he says.....since you should have a warranty it might not be worth paying for local service.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 330
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:48 pm:

Walpole was the place I called, with the number you posted. I got my numbers mixed up, that was the one where someone answered and said that I had the wrong number, that I didn't reach IAG. California was the one that was not in service.

I could try the Walpole number again, I could try the Redmond number, I could call them in the UK, or even email the President, and I could call Mike. I think ultimately all of those would be more effort and cost than checking this out locally and then simply moving on.

freddie, the speakers are under warranty but shipping them to Wharfedale would not be free.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 94
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:53 pm:

I just called the number on Wharfedale's site (508-422-9788) and got his voicemail which specifically says Sound Import and mentions Wharfedale. Are you sure you dialed the right one?

I'm guessing he'd tell you to ship him the speakers (which shouldn't be all that much) and he'd just send you new ones. When I had the issue with my tweeter he told me to take them over to him if I couldn't figure it out and he'd take a look for free. Unless the shipping is way more than I think it is I don't think you'll have an issue.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 331
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:59 pm:

Tel: (508) 850-3950
That's the one I called, it's in my manual. Where did you find that one, freddie?

Wharfedale has so many numbers listed for US service, and most of them are wrong. It'd be nice if they posted the right one on their various web sites and manuals.

I still need to do this locally though. I need someone to listen to what I'm hearing, open the speaker up and look inside. I was willing to ship these to IAG a few days ago, but I've lost any patience I had in going that route.

Shipping from Canada for two speakers will run at least $60.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 95
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Support/DistributorsDealers/tabid/61/Default.aspx?Co untryID=50#countryinfo

From my understanding they've had all sorts of issues with US distribution in the last few years. I remember I was wanting a set of Diamond 9.1s in late 07 and it seemed nearly impossible to get them. Bob Springston (he's actually in Hopedale MA, not Walpole which is where the old guy was) took over pretty recently and they're just now starting to get back in the market. For a while Wild West was the only dealer carrying them (and they had very limited stock), I don't recall STO or that other online dealer (can't think of the name) having them at the time. Hopefully they'll be sorted out by the time the Diamond 10s come out.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 332
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 11:17 pm:

Didn't think to check there, figuring it's only for sales (distributors and dealers). There is a place in B.C., which may be an option. Their website www.aralex.com does not mention warranty service, however.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10825
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 11:34 pm:

Again, did you buy the speakers from STO? If you did you should be contacting them and not the distributor. The dealer should take care of you and if you need a contact number or email he can provide it. I'm not sure why you are going everywhere but the dealer, makes absolutely no sense at all.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 333
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 12:03 am:

Don't really want to go there, Art. Suffice to say that buying local has it's advantages and I'm going to manage this from that angle. I already shipped them once to STO remember. Besides, IAG is the one who offers the warranty. They are the ones who are supposed to fix the speaker in the warranty period. I read somewhere that you deal with IAG during the warranty period, and your dealer after that. But I've already explained why I don't want to send it to IAG.

My experience with this speaker has been unfortunate, I'm sure it's better than what I have heard, but now I am looking to move on as simply as possible...nothing more, nothing less.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10827
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 12:19 am:

Doesn't look simple to me Dan. The more bass ackwards you go about it the more difficult it becomes. Please don't forget that I couldn't be less invested in whether you like them. You made it clear long ago that you don't, in spite of not setting them up properly. However I was hoping to help you to move 'em out faster. Sorry, I will leave you to this.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 334
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 12:29 am:

Sorry Art, I don't see how paying to have them shipped out once more, then getting them shipped back again, which will take 2 weeks minimum (and hell is there any guarantee they will come back 100%?) is going to be faster, cheaper, or less aggravating than getting someone locally this weekend to confirm whether there is something wrong with them or not. Frankly I think I've done this bass ackwards from the start. Now I'm going to deal directly with someone with the knowledge I need, rather than shipping them out and crossing my fingers hoping I get back a great pair of speakers.

I understand that not having them on stands isn't ideal and I may not be getting what they are capable of, but having them on a very inert desk shouldn't totally ruin the sound. It hasn't for any other speaker I've tried. From what I've read, stands tighten up the bass, and have little to do with higher frequencies. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Bass performance wasn't an issue with the EVO's for me at all, in fact it was the highlight.

Besides, this weekend going to the repair place I'm sure we will get them set up properly and have a good listen. Another reason to do it that way.

I still might, miiiiight deal with IAG/STO because maybe I can get a refund. We'll see.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10829
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 12:43 am:

"I still might, miiiiight deal with IAG/STO because maybe I can get a refund. We'll see."

Now your getting warm. Though it may now be too late...I'll cross my fingers for you.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 335
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 01:07 am:

Well if I go through STO I'm sure I'll be on the hook for shipping and their 20% restocking fee. It's in their terms and conditions. Frankly, at the end of the day, I may be able to get more by selling them.

And why should it be too late? I already sent them back once. When I got them the noise was still there (though much less audible). I decided I'd try to give them time to break in thinking that that could be the issue, in my attempt not to be an unreasonable customer. Mike wasn't all that enamored with taking them back the first time, you see. And by that time I was already past STO's 7-day no questions asked return policy.

I almost think, that if I take them to someone to check out, and they confirm a defect, that would give me some ammunition in dealing with IAG/STO. This is a tough one, I'm really not sure what I should do. You've got me thinking to try IAG or STO first to at least see what they say. I won't agree to pay for shipping to have them look at/fix the speakers though. Already tried that. It's either a refund or a brand new pair.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 336
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 01:19 am:

Reading one post in the Wharfedale owner's thread at AVS, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=619347&page=6, and NMyTree's post here http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/570225.html

doesn't give me much hope in dealing with IAG. NMyTree says the distributor is still helpful in dealing with warranty issues, so perhaps the distributor is the way to go. Will mull this over.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10830
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 01:28 am:

Mike likes to get good feedback with his distributor. Get it. If he won't satisfy you then you need to check the health of the speakers and sell 'em.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 337
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 01:35 am:

Thanks Art, I'll give it a shot.

Silver Member

Username: Mordecai

Texas

Post Number: 295
Registered: Jan-09

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 02:09 am:

It's official, I love the 10's. Been listen to them for about 2 months or so now. Outstanding but then again I have limited experience with speaker brands. I am satisfied for what I spent and the return on investment. I'm glad I moved to the 10's from the 8's. I still have the 8's if someone is interested.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2974
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 09:03 am:

That's good to see Mordecai, I've been enjoying mine as well, however, I am of the impression that in my case it was a bit better than a lateral move, with the EVO2 possessing certain strength as it relates to an upper mid-bass focus & realism which were not the strengths of the Beta 20. I stick by my previous claims that the Beta 20 is competitive with speakers up to about the $400-$600 range that I've heard, with a better build quality than most. The EVO2-10 occupy a position somewhere below the Paradigm Studio 20, and perhaps even the B&W 685 and Monitor Audio Silver RS1 in my estimation, but @ $299/pr., the price was right.

Next up, the NEW Monitor Audio RX2 with an 8" mid/woofer with bass that measures down into the 40s. I have high-hopes for the RX2, and @ $648/pr., it might be the new best thing under $1K.

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/295400.aspx

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10846
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 09:14 am:

I agree with your placement of the Evo2-10 Chris. Below the Studio 20 and MA RS1 however I think they are about lateral with the 685. Ofcourse I think the are head and shoulders better than the Beta 20's. Perhaps the differences at that point have more to do with a difference in refinement heard with a step up in source and power supply.

Glad to read that you are enjoying yours Mordecai. If I had a few extra bucks I'd take those 8's. I need a black pair to replace the 10's in HT so I can put the 10's back in the office.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2975
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 09:30 am:

Power source, yes (but I am kind of fond of my SR5400), but if there's a better CD player than my DV7600, I simply don't think I can hear the difference or ever justify the cost. That's not to say I won't ever buy another CD player, but considering the way things are going with digital media, you never know, this might be it?

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10847
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 09:35 am:

I've owned a bunch of Marantz CD and universal players and I'd prefer Rega or Rotel any day of the week for my ears.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10849
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 09:40 am:

BTW I'm fond of your SR5400 too!

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2976
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:18 am:

I've heard some old Rotel players, some new ones too, but have yet to listen to any Rega players. I have however heard players from NAD, NAD MS, CA, Marantz, McIntosh, and a few others, and maybe I just have a dead-ear to such nuances, and I've stated this before, I don't hear discernable differences past a certain point. The most noticeable thing is the blackness of the black thing, and unit noise, past that it's structural stuff like weight, tray toughness, ease of use and aesthetics, but those distinctions usually happen fairly low down the food chain.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13690
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:38 am:

fair nuff.

Silver Member

Username: Mordecai

Texas

Post Number: 296
Registered: Jan-09

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:47 am:

I am interested in the NHT3. Not sure where you guys would rank them in that list. Are they a move up from the 10's or a lateral move? The RX2 looks very interesting and the price seems fair too. My plan is to move up to a Brio. However, I'm not sure what power I would need to run the NHT's. I was thinking of adding an amp to my current setup when and if I get a pair of NHT's.

Silver Member

Username: Mordecai

Texas

Post Number: 297
Registered: Jan-09

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:51 am:

Art, I'm not getting much action on my 8's at Audiogon. I may hold on to them instead of giving them away although Ebay is a possibility. I did think of you when I heard you were using the 10's in HT.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2977
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:54 am:

Another sweet deal that rarely gets mention on this board are the Swan D2.1SE on sale for $599/pr.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-d2-1se/products_id/69

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0708/swans_d21se.htm

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10853
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 11:20 am:

The Brio woudn't do it for the NHT's Mordecai. Would sound very good with your Evo's though.

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1032
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 12:57 pm:

Agree Art, the NHT's need lots of power. They sound huge with good power. I still haven't forgotten hearing them with McIntosh.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 338
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 01:18 pm:

Once I get rid of the Evo2 I might just have to take a very serious look at the RX2. It's a very intriguing speaker. Is it available in North America yet?

I was going to do a B&W 685 vs. Aperion 6B comparison. I'm going to throw the Paradigm Studio 20 into the mix since my local B&W dealer also carries Paradigm. I am debating whether I should go to the trouble of ordering the 6B, but a 30-day in home trial would be pretty fun.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10857
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 01:22 pm:

The latest Studio 20 is pretty damn good speaker.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 339
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 01:26 pm:

The dealer doesn't allow in home trials, but I'm going to lug my amp and CDP over to do a proper demo of the 685 and Studio 20. I'll probably do the same with the Monitor Audio. With the 6B that's obviously not a concern at all.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13694
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 01:27 pm:

I have not heard it Art, but meant to pick up a pair sometime.
How was it so good, and what electrics, huh, huh, huh?

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10859
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 02:00 pm:

Vincent electronics, cd player and integrated (don't recall the models). It's really just another evolutionary step up for Paradigm. It's a speaker that would be at home with many brands of high end electronics. I would guess that Sim would be a great match for the Studio 20's.

Silver Member

Username: Mordecai

Texas

Post Number: 298
Registered: Jan-09

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 02:29 pm:

I understand about the Brio and the NHT's. You guys didn't rate the NHT's with the Studios, RS6 and Evo's though.

Also, could I add an amp to my system to satisfy the power hunger of the NHT's? If not, what amp would work well them so I can get an idea of how much coin we are talking about.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10860
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 02:54 pm:

I'd rather have the Studio 20's or the MA RS6's than the NHT's. The NHT's are better than the Evo's, especially if you like bass. Also consider Totem Rainmaker's in that price range. If you have pre outs you can add an amp.I don't think the Brio does. Buy a used Naim Nait 5i and don't look back.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 340
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:51 am:

I picked up my Cambridge Audio 550T today. Really nice build quality on the new CA stuff, feels like a much higher end piece of gear than it actually is. Might look to replace my Marantz universal player one day with the new Cambridge BD650, just to have a little more consistency in gear and of course the Blu Ray playback.

Thinking ahead, I think I'll try for an in home demo of the Rega Mira, just too see if it'll give me more synergy with the Saturn. Might trade the YBA amp in then. But that'll be a longer term project, not itching to get rid of my amp or anything, just figure that one day doing an in home trial of the Mira makes sense.

Browsed around at two stores today. The MA RX line should be in stock soon at both dealers. The first one (whom I trust) said it's a definite improvement on the old line. The other one said that they listened to both and you could barely tell the difference. They were still getting rid of the old RS line though, while the first dealer had pretty much worked through their stock but just hadn't ordered the new stuff yet. The second was hoping I'd buy the RS6, which was on sale for $999. Have to admit it's tempting, but once I see an updated version out it's tough for me to buy the old one, especially considering significant upgrades to the line. I kind of doubt they sound almost the same. The RX2 is going to retail for about $1,000. Not cheap.

Saw the Paradigm Studio 20. God, what a gorgeous speaker. $1,200ish. When I compare this to the 685, which will be around $700, I don't know if I could step up to the Monitor Audio or Paradigm, especially for what is going to be a HT speaker eventually. Maybe if I got the MA or Paradigm I should consider my stereo complete, and I'd just buy HT speakers whenever I'm ready for them. Guess that'll depend on how much I like them when demo time comes around.

I even looked at some stands!

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10871
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 02:27 am:

Do not even consider the Mira. Not even close to up to to the quality of your Saturn. Try trading in the YBA on SIM, Arcam or Naim. A closer approximation of what you'll need to make that Saturn sing.

The Studio 20's are nice eh. The RS6 is a very fine speaker Dan..regardles of what's new.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 341
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 02:36 am:

Naim Nait XS or Rega Elicit?

Making this move will all depend on whether I think one of the above (or something else) is significantly better than the YBA. And right now I don't even know which speakers I'll be using. B&W, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, or Aperion. I may skip Aperion though, I think that may only confuse matters even more.

I really like the RS6 Art. But I feel like a tower isn't the way to go for me. When looking at the RS2 vs. the RX2, it seems that's a bigger upgrade than the RS6 vs. the RX6, primarily because of the 8 inch woofer in the RX2.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10873
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 02:49 am:

Good to skip the Aperions, they really aren't in the same league.

If you like the sound of the RS 6 then you should move in that direction. The Naim XS is fabulous and at less bucks so is the Nait.

I really just hope we get to see you enjoying music with your system.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 342
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 03:13 am:

Well the Evo2's just didn't work out for me, Art. This time around I will be sure to either do an in home demo or lug around my gear to a couple of dealers to listen through that. I consider it a lesson learned.

I do like the RS6, but I didn't hear it at home through my gear. So it's still a bit of a crapshoot, isn't it? I don't think I want towers (though I'm not 100% convinced of that yet). With towers I'm worried about a dog smacking around that bottom woofer with a tail or giving it a few licks! No dog now, but I'm sure I'll have a dog or two in the future. Then there is the belief (which I have read numerous times) that a bookshelf speaker produces better SQ and better imaging, like the large enclosure necessitates some compromise. I guess this is generally speaking, and surely some designs are better than others. I think I've heard this, like a tower sounds a little more boxed in than a bookshelf speaker

If it's bookshelf speakers for me then I'll wait for the RX2 rather than buy the RS2. I definitely need to hear that speaker.

Aperion seems to have a lot going for them (phenomenal customer service, 10 year warranty, upgrade program, incredible build quaity), and by most accounts they make really good speakers. Have you heard a pair before? The one concern with the 6B was the sensitivity. 82db! I never saw a figure that low. $700 for the 6B from an Internet direct company, one would hope they'd favorably compare to a speaker like the Studio 20 or at the very least the Monitor Audio RS2. I still may give them a shot as there is little risk involved.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 344
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 04:11 am:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/frankharveyhifi/

Lots of pretty pictures!

Stands!

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/145128-atacama_nexus_10_speaker_stands/

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/145080-paradigm__premier__spk_stands_s26_ _26_/

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/144749-target_16_steel_speaker_stands/

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13702
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 11:54 am:

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10875
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:05 pm:

Aperions speakers have improved alot over the last few years but aren't in the same league with the Studio 20's or MA's IMO.

Platinum Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13703
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:42 pm:

I didn't see the 82db spec, but that's a lot of amp to overcome.
Think Bryston, Classe, and other expensive options.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 345
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 01:09 pm:

I asked, they seem to think you can get by with less than that. For HT, a Marantz 8002 is recommended, but you can get away with a 6002 or 7002. I would guess the YBA could out do all of them. The impedence curve I believe isn't that bad, I guess you just need juice to get them to play loud.

Ovation Audio had a really nice pair of stands, that looked like these.

http://www.vanptc.com/products16-51-8/BookshelfSeries

I don't think they were the same though. Wish I could remember what they were called. They had a nice semi gloss finish, same base as the ones pictured, and the pillar itself was in the shape of a triangle and fillable. I might end up with them, but I'm going to need to see the Target stand in person first.

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1034
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:50 pm:

Hey Dan, could you let me know or drop me a PM on the dealer that's selling the RS6 at $1000. I've been looking into a pair for sometime - was it Ovation by chance?

Do you get your PM's? I sent you one a week or so back - no response. We live pretty close together I believe. I'm in Scarborough.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 2986
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:55 pm:

MA RS6 for $875/pr.+$70 s&h

http://www.digitalcraze.com/Details.asp?Source=Froogle&ProductID=3226

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 349
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 12:12 am:

Hi George,

PM sent. Sorry, didn't check that email address for the past week. I should probably move my ecoustics login to one that I check more often.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 96
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 05:32 pm:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1260198936

Just came across that, wondering how you guys think it'd be with the Evos? I'm not really sure how to interpret the review on TNT ( http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/cambridge-a500_e.html ) which makes it sound underwhelming until the end where he says it's a good budget minded unit. I know none of you can make the decision for me, but I'm just wondering if it's worth looking into further or I should pass on it. The price seems right for me though. Also, the guy is pretty local to me, so I could probably go listen to it before making a decision, but I have no idea how the speakers he mentioned in the posting sound compared to what I have (and I'm guessing not very close at all).

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 355
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 07:11 pm:

Nice looking amp. Most people say Cambridge is a little bright. I've got only a little experience with their gear, heard a Cambridge amp at my local dealer with Monitor Audio RS6 speakers, which are considered a little bright too. But they were very nice together.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's easy to determine how different gear will sound together until you actually hear it for yourself. There was no reason to think Arcam/YBA/Wharfedale wouldn't work for me, but it definitely did not. Come to think of it, I read WhatHiFi's forums occasionally, and I'm pretty sure they often recommend matching Wharfedale and CA.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 97
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 07:18 pm:

Really, bright? When I was looking for an amp for my Cambridge Soundworks speakers (right before I bought the Wharfies instead) the dealer I spoke to said NAD would probably be better than CA because of CA being on the warm side as the CSW speakers are. I guess you're right...probably not going to get much useful information unless I hear it for myself.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 356
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 08:53 pm:

Most people say NAD gear tends to be warm.

The TNT review did say the CA was on the warm side, so perhaps that particular unit was. Maybe the brightness is a relatively new sound for CA. I'm not sure. But ultimately what you hear is going to be the various components working together, so I'm not sure that it matters much what each is purported to sound like.

I had an interesting discussion in a thread I started recently about this theory in the CD player section. Like you said, the common advice is to match warm with bright, not warm with warm. But some folks here (and I'm sure elsewhere) believe you should decide what sound you want and then get gear that gives you that sound. I'll quote Neil Waterman from that thread, he said it better than I can:

I agree with Chris. I would not try and offset one characteristic by choosing a component that opposes that characteristic. If you have a "smooth, refined" sound, don't pair that up with something that is its opposite or you could wind up with not much of either and be sorely disappointed. You are trying to achieve synergy, not polar opposites. It is always good to know the designer's perspective and what they have successfully paired with their equipment. It is almost always components that compliment the qualities, not oppose them.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 98
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 09:43 pm:

That makes sense Dan. I guess the natural instinct is to try and "balance" by contrasting components, but I can see how that could cause issues with not getting the intended sound signature of what you're using and you yourself missing out on the sound you're after.

Anyway I sent that guy an email asking if I could see it in person and I may even ask if I could bring my speakers to try with it....Hopefully it will work well.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 3010
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 12:48 pm:

I have a question.

Would I truly be bi-amping my EVO2 if I were to hook them up to my HK3485 A/B speaker outputs? Aren't these outputs drawing current from the same power supply? My brain tells me this is not true bi-amping, but might there be any benefit or risk from trying this out?

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 99
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 01:43 pm:

I passed on the amp....Probably for a reason most would consider dumb, but I realized how dependent I am on the remote last night. Even if it were to have one, TNT says it only controls volume, and I really need input switching. Oh well, I'll find something else I'm sure...

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10913
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 01:51 pm:

I don't have a remote in my main system and don't miss it a bit.

Bronze Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 100
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 02:11 pm:

Yeah, like I said I know some of you do fine without it, but last night I really thought about how my system is used normally, and I just think it's something I need. I do a lot of listening late at night so I really need to be able to change volume quickly so I don't disturb others, and I also generally go from TV to music to sleep to. I guess it seems lazy, but I don't think it's practical in my situation to go without one.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 361
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 06:27 pm:

Remotes are extremely convenient. I would definitely want one. I need to control volume and CD playback buttons, tuner stations, but that's about it. Input switching on my system I have to do manually, I don't think those buttons are on my YBA remote. But that's okay since I generally don't do it often. I bought a Sony universal remote however, because right now I've just got too many remotes (amp, CDP, tuner). I prefer using one remote to control all components.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10945
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 06:14 pm:

I should clarify, I don't have a remote for my amp in the main system and don't miss it. I do have a remote for the office system amp and it's collecting dust. I like one for the cd player and definitely in the HT. Don't need it for music.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 10988
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 03:34 am:

Took the Evo's out of the HT and put 'em back in the office and they really are a wonderful speaker. Matched up with the Apollo and the Creek 4330 they really sing. I was hoping to hear the harshness that Dan talked about, it's been a few weeks since I listened to them...nope...just wonderful music. Dan's must be defective....or something.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 367
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 12:43 pm:

Well there could be any number of reasons for it. Another person on the WhatHiFi forum had the same impression as I did of the Evo. Maybe it's the matching equipment, maybe it's the room, maybe our hearing is more sensitive to this one small frequency range that the Evo2 puts out louder than other speakers I've heard; who knows? I just know that it's not worth any more effort to try to like this speaker and so I am moving on.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11005
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 01:02 pm:

I read that WhatHiFi forum excerpt, wasn't very informative. Many more forum excerpts supporting their quality.

No need to get defensive Dan. I wouldn't want you to put in any more effort on the Evo's. In fact I've begged you not to several times...lol!

If you sell the Evo's you do owe the buyer either a caveat that there may be an issue with the speaker or an attempt to have it repaired.

I had a seller send me a pair of Diamond 9.1's that needed repair, man was it difficult to get him to do the right thing.

I was enjoyng some Miles Davis this morning prior to work, and the Evo's balance was very nice.

The fella on the WhatHiFi forum referrred to the poor quality of the tweeter, and that's what so many have pointed to as a strong suit on the Diamond 9.1..seems odd, though not inconceivable, that they would have a lesser tweeter in the Evo2's.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 368
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:16 pm:

No worries Art, I don't mean to sound defensive. I realize that most experiences with the speaker are positive. The WhatHiFi thing is simply an example of one guy who had the same experience as I did. It just sort of shows me that maybe I'm not crazy

,maybe this speaker does actually sound like this given certain conditions.

No worries about selling it, I've got a conscience! It's just not in my makeup to scam someone. I've already taken the speaker to that one repair shop I spoke of, because I was in the area and they don't charge anything unless they work on it. The speakers were hooked up and they couldn't detect anything wrong. I haven't tried them with my Saturn yet, will do so hopefully this coming weekend.

This whole experience taught me what a joke IAG are though. I will never buy anything from them until they fix their reputation. From all the comments on how unresponsive they are, to their cr@ppy grill pegs on a $1,000 speaker, to their literature filled with outdated phone numbers, to all the audiophiles who think they are ruining brands like Wharfedale and Castle.

I guess the Evo2 is a great deal though, if you get the sound that you were hoping for. For me it was just one thing after the next, and eventually I simply felt it was time to cut my losses.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 3033
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:38 pm:

"The fella on the WhatHiFi forum referrred to the poor quality of the tweeter, and that's what so many have pointed to as a strong suit on the Diamond 9.1..seems odd, though not inconceivable, that they would have a lesser tweeter in the Evo2's."

Well the same might be said for the Infinity Beta & Primus, and you seemed to prefer the Primus from what I recall, so I'm going to say that as prices increase, so does quality, perhaps not the the degree one might always expect, but components & finish should be better, sound on the other hand...

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11006
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:42 pm:

Fortunately I haven't had to deal with IAG although I had similar experiences with Sumiko. Mike at STO was fair and responsive for me, so I would buy from him again if I were in the market for a budget product. I would never buy hi-end from him as I want to audition that level of product in home and I have a fabulous dealer in Eugene HiFi.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11007
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:51 pm:

Sorry Chris, I didn't see your post. I don't think I liked the tweeter any better in the Primus and in fact it became tiresome quickly. In the end I determined that I couldn't live with either. The Beta being one of the least musical speakers I've auditioned lately and the Primus being a bit too mechanical and tiring...not natural sounding. I lived with them in my office for awhile and just couldn't warm up to them like I had hoped. Were I forced to pick one to live with for a year I would probably pick the Beta because it was a bit warmer and less fatigueing. However I would have to think about it for awhile.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 3034
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 04:25 pm:

Thanks for the follow-up, my Betas are back in-house, my Bro's decided he liked the look of the Insignia NS-B2111 (they are good looking), the sound is good enough...and it is.

Given the fact that the Betas resale value is something close zilch, I'll find a box & stash them away for a rainy day, they will find a good home with an appreciative owner...maybe even this one.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11008
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:25 pm:

Good idea Chris. I'm puttin' my Epos ELS3's in their box and puttin' em in the closet. Just can't let go of the little fella's.

Gold Member

Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1048
Registered: Jun-08

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 07:19 pm:

Art, I'm enjoying the Els3's I recently purchased. They sound great with string instruments. Very decent detail and a good midrange.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11009
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 07:34 pm:

They are an excellent little speaker.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 3052
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

Just picked off a new pair of discontinued Sanus Designer Foundations 24" stands on eBay for $49; these are very similar to the Ultimate Foundation Series, having a single large pillar rather than three smaller pillars. I'll be pairing them with the EVOs & reporting back ASAP.

http://www.buy.com/prod/sanus-systems-df24-designer-foundations-fixed-height-spe aker-stands-24/q/loc/111/90108938.html

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11223
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 07:06 am:

Looks nice Chris. Looking forward to reading your impressions.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 385
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 07:54 pm:

I tried the Evo2's with my Saturn for the first time. It's been a while since I've had them hooked up. I don't know if it was the long break, or the Saturn, but I came away feeling pretty good about them. I doubt I'll keep them because they don't blow me away the way the PMC did (which is the sound I am after now), but in going from my Tannoy F2 to the Evo2-10 the improvement was pretty clear. The speakers just didn't seem as harsh as what I felt I heard before. It's pretty weird, I don't know how to explain it. Most songs I played sounded great. A few sounded bright. I think it's the CD's themselves, not the speakers. Though a speaker like the PMC really tames that brightness, whereas the Evo2-10 does not.

For the last 24 hours I've really mulled over keeping them (for HT, not for audio only). Still debating it.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Gold Coast
Australia

Post Number: 2637
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 08:03 pm:

If the PMC tames a brightness (of cd origin) that others do not, then I would be disappointed with PMC. To me that description tells me that PMC may color the sound somewhat.

I have only had a brief listen to PMC with a Marantz reciever in a badly set up room full of noise at a big store. However your description of them is not what I heard or have read about them.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 386
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 10:14 pm:

When PMC introduced the i series they also started using a new tweeter made by SEAS, which they describe as silky smooth. I have to agree with them, as I have never heard such a sweet sounding high end as on the TB2i. I have not heard PMC speakers prior to the i series, but those who have say that the speakers tended to be on the harsh side of things. I believe that PMC used to employ metal tweeters, which might account for that.

Does PMC tame the brightness, or just not exacerbate it? I'm not sure. All I know is I don't enjoy speakers where the treble overpowers the mids and bass, but prefer it to be integrated where it is there and it is clear but at the same time doesn't draw attention to itself. To me this is how treble should be. The one measurement I've seen with PMC speakers (the new i series) was in a home theater mag and the measurements were quite flat. Here it is: http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/406pmc/index2.html

As far as I know this is how PMC typically measures. Of course, we know that many speaker brands will emphasize the highs and lows as it creates a more exciting sound, but if the tweeter is not of exceptional quality then I figure that kind of speaker runs the risk of having a shrill upper end. This is probably good for certain kinds of music, but generally speaking I don't think rock is one of them.

I guess I've gained a new appreciation for the Evo2-10. I chalk up the harshness that I don't like to some of the discs that I have. I think the Rega has tamed a lot of that but it can't perform miracles. The discs that aren't bright sound amazing on these speakers; well balanced with great detail, dynamics, and poise. I'll be a little disappointed to see them go, frankly in the cherry finish it is one of the best looking speakers I have ever seen.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11227
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 10:25 pm:

How much did you say the PMC's cost?

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 387
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 10:30 pm:

$2,500 Cdn. Yes I know, you can't compare that to the Evo2. But then again, you kind of can. It shows you what you can get for the money, and then it's up to you whether you want shell out the cash.

I think this is eventually how it works if you allow yourself to get wrapped up in audio. Ultimately you will begin to compare entry level with one level up, and then that level with another level or two higher. I have no right to expect the Evo2 to better the PMC, but it's certainly valid to compare the two. Thankfully, I can't ever see myself spending more than $2,500 for a pair of speakers, and hopefully I'll be able to find the sound I want for less money than what PMC asks for.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11228
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 07:26 am:

Have you considered Magico's. They're only 30k...why not compare them...shows what you can get for your money. If one comparison is valid then why not the other?Still makes no sense to me.

Gold Member

Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY
United States

Post Number: 3054
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 08:09 am:

Sure you can compare the two, it wouldn't be a fair fight, however, fights don't always turn out as expected. Can you spend your way to better sound, Yes; but expensive does not always a better speaker make.

In the 2-way bookshelf category, past a certain point, let's say somewhere near the $1,500 range, one begins to experience deminishing returns at an expotential rate, IMHO, so a comparison between a ~$1,500 2-way and a $15,000 2-way might yeild some surprising results.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11229
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 08:58 am:

I'm not sure how we measure where the diminishing returns start. I know that the difference between the DeVore Gibbon 3XL and any $2000 monitor I've ever heard is huge. The 3XL does nearly everything better than anything I've heard at anywhere near it's price. The Evo2-10's are fun but not in the same universe as the 3XL and one would hope the PMC's at their asking price.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 389
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 12:57 pm:

Have you considered Magico's. They're only 30k...why not compare them...shows what you can get for your money. If one comparison is valid then why not the other?Still makes no sense to me.

Art, I'm guessing you compared the DeVore to your old Rega speakers. If to your ears they didn't better the R5 then you wouldn't have spent the extra money, right? I've read where you've compared the Saturn to the Apollo. Is that a fair comparison? Well yes, because if the improvement wasn't apparent you wouldn't have spent the money.

I'm not saying you compare a $900 speaker like the Evo2 with a speaker that costs $2,500 and expect it to somehow match the more expensive speaker in sound. But you have to compare the two if you are interested in moving up to the higher price bracket. You have to determine what the extra money will get you, only then will you know if it's worth spending it.

Doing this comparison is like comparing a Ford Fusion or a Honda Accord with a BMW 3 series or Audi A4. It's a level or two up but not a ridiculous comparison. You wouldn't compare a Hyundai Elantra with a BMW 7 series or an Aston Martin. Likewise, you wouldn't compare the Evo2 to a speaker costing $30,000. No one in the market for a $900 speaker will also consider jumping up to something costing $30K. But someone in the market for a $900 speaker may also consider a speaker costing $500 or $,1000 more, making the comparison logical.

Really, magazine reviews compare components at different price points all the time. It's the only way you'll know what an extra investment will yield. No one is expecting the cheaper component to outperform the more expensive one.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11230
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 01:34 pm:

A comparison yes, however, I don't expect similar performance from the lesser product.

The Apollo and Saturn for instance have been compared by many mags and independent reviewers. The aim appears to be to determine if the extra money is worth spending.

In a way you've made my point relative to the Magico speakers. If you don't intend to buy the PMC's because they are too expensive then what's the point. Why not compare Magico's and just about any other world class speaker that's outside of your budget.

My point is that there are many speakers at multiples of the price of the Evo2-10's that are far better. Just as there are many cars at multiples of the price of a Ford Escort that better it. So what's the point...

So why not compare some speakers that are within the same range as the Wharfedales.

Comparisons are not a bad thing by themselves. I just don't get the reasons why you don't compare like to like...the validity relative to buying a decision might be easier to understand.

Yeah I did compare the DeVore's to the R5's, check my profile.

If you really are taken with the PMC's then I don't understand why you don't buy them and be done with it. I'm guessing that they come up used from time to time...keep your eyes open and you might snag a pair. Also, if you can afford to buy new, can you take them home again for another audition. Why not give 'em another run? Your system has changed.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 390
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 02:48 pm:

In a way you've made my point relative to the Magico speakers. If you don't intend to buy the PMC's because they are too expensive then what's the point.

But I am willing to buy the PMC's. They are on a list of 8 speakers I am considering and they are the most expensive one. If I like one of the other 7 as much as I like the TB2i then I may end up with that, if not then I will gladly buy the PMC. I may buy the PMC anyway.

I'm considering speakers ranging up to $2,500, so I feel that comparing speakers ranging from $800 (the cheapest on the list) right up to $2,500 is valid. After all, it's my money and it will be going towards one of them. I'm not expecting the cheapest to equal the quality of the PMC, it's more about determining whether the PMC or one of the other relatively expensive speakers is superior enough to warrant the extra money; or whether one of the cheaper options comes close enough to satisfy my needs.

Anyways, whether I buy my final speaker now or not, I feel the Evo2-10 is likely on the way out. I do like it but I've heard other speakers at the same price point that I prefer. I'm considering one of those now. I'll let you guys know what I ultimately decide, it's not really for this thread anymore. With my post yesterday I just wanted to say that I did find some enjoyment with the Evo2's that I didn't get early on, and I'll have them for at least another few weeks and will put some more hours on them.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11231
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 03:16 pm:

We've heard alot about you not liking the Evo2-10, and alot about you likng the PMC's. What we haven't heard, at least to my knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, is any information about these other speakers you like better at the same price point. That would be a welcome addition to this or any other thread comparing like to like. What are they and what do you like about them?

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 391
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 04:25 pm:

Well yes, you are right Art, and I didn't intend for this to become about PMC. I think I made some pretty clear points regarding comparisons and was challenged on those, so I responded.

And I didn't mean to harp so much about how bad the Evo2 is over these past few months. It's not. Like I said, I've concluded that it's simply down to some of the CDs that I often listen to, and also the gear I had, though I had other issues with it as well as you know...it became a long and drawn out thing working through that. Well recorded CDs sound excellent on the Evo2 right now. It's not the speaker's fault that a lot of albums sound bright. And the Rega CDP makes a big difference...again, not an Evo2 problem.

I'm considering quite a lot of speakers, some of which are listed in the thread I created in the CDP forum though I've added a few. In the Evo2 price range I'm looking at the B&W 685 under it, Monitor Audio RS/RX series at about the same price, and the Paradigm Studio 20 just above it.

Will report on how that goes elsewhere, I'll leave this thread to the Evo2 now and those who want to talk about it.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11232
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:28 pm:

I'll be interested in your impressions when you audition them. You haven't as yet, correct?

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 392
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:59 pm:

The only ones on my list that I've heard so far are the PMC and the Monitor Audio. I think I prefer the Monitor Audio line to the Wharfedale, and there are some good deals on the old RS series that I am kind of warming up to lately. Heard the RS6 twice, I enjoyed it both times. At a dealer with other equipment, so the usual caveats apply I guess. They have a reputation for being bright, but I didn't find them so (neither did Stereophile, I pretty much concur with their view on the speaker).

I'm not sure I gave you my full list. I'm considering these, in approximate order of cost: B&W 685, Monitor Audio RX2 (or the older silver line), Paradigm Studio 20, ProAc Studio 110, Tannoy Revolution Signature DC6, Totem Sttaf, Dynaudio Focus 140, and the PMC TB2i. Will let you guys know what I think after I audition all of these in the coming weeks.

By the way, I don't really think of Evo2-10 as a $350, entry level speaker, simply because STO can sell it that cheap. MSRP is about $900, right? That's why I view it as competing with the MA Silver series.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11233
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 06:49 pm:

I owned the ProAc Studio 110, Totem Rainmaker, B&W 610i and Paradigm Studio 20v1, v2, v3, all very good speakers in their own right. If everything were right the ProAc's would have been the best of the bunch. With mismatched electronics it can unforgiveing and bright. The ProAc Studio series was voiced with Audio Research tube gear.

The Evo2-10 is not really a 900.00 speaker. Only one dealer has ever gotten away with selling them for more than $460 and they aren't doing a brisk business in Wharfie sales. I think it's still fair to compare them MA RS series as well as the 600 series B&W's.

Silver Member

Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 393
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 07:11 pm:

There is only one Wharfedale dealer I know of in my area, I think they go for $799 there right now. Which equates to about $699US, going by historical exchange rates. This is actually what Wild West is selling them for right now. I'm surprised they haven't lowered the price. Maybe this is the dealer you are referring to, Art.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11234
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 07:34 pm:

That is the dealer I'm referring to, Dan. Here in the US, Wild West is the only dealer I know of above the $460 mark. I think the Evo2-10's compete favorably with speakers in $600-800 range. They may not always "win" a shootout but they'll be in the running.

Silver Member

Username: Boulderdashcci

Canton, Massachusetts
USA

Post Number: 116
Registered: Apr-07

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 07:38 pm:

AYSE had them for $800-900 back when their site was up, if I remember correctly.

Edit: Just found a Google cache snapshot of their site. $809 on August 27th of this year.

Platinum Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 11235
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 07:51 pm:

Probably why their site ain't up...