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Thread: Seeking recommendation for TT purchase |
    
New member Username: Klismith
Denver,
CO
Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-09
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| Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 06:48 pm: |
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I read through a few older threads asking for turntable recommendations. I thought I would ask again to be sure I’m getting feedback about current models available on the market plus my situation may be different than the others.
I’ll start with a little background about myself, my audio system and why I am considering a turntable upgrade. I have 1,500+ lp’s and frequently visit the local vinyl record stores, definitely a hobby for me. I don’t have the exact model #’s available as I write this, but I have a 5 year old Yamaha receiver (approx $1,500) and a pair of Boston Acoustic tower speakers (approx $1,250 each). I realize these components are far from the best but they are definitely of decent quality and more importantly, I like the way they sound. I have an old Panasonic belt drive turntable (1980’s model, guessing $150 or so new). I put a new Shure M97xE on the Panasonic and think it sounds pretty good.
A general idea of what I’m thinking comes from an article I read that suggests a person can find the sound quality of listening to vinyl to be more enjoyable than CD’s. This came with the qualification that the quality of the components used when listening to vinyl were at least of comparable quality to the CD player. I can’t say that I’m disappointed in the sound quality of my low end Panasonic TT but wonder if I’m missing out on something more amazing by not having a better quality TT. It also seems like I might be a bit crazy to have so many vinyl LP’s if I can’t fully appreciate the way they should or could sound by investing in a better TT.
I was thinking about a price range of $1,000 to $2,000 (less if you think there’s no need to spend that much). I picked that range because I want something that will give me appreciable improvement over the old Panasonic and $300-1,000 may not do that. I was thinking that paying more than $2,000 might get me a quality of TT that the rest of my system can’t keep up with. I looked at new turntables in a local store and saw some options from Pro-ject (may not give enough improvement), Rega P3 & P5 (seemed a good fit), Marantz (awesome TT but didn’t have a cover), VPI ($2,500 model out of my price range).
I was once told that a stereo system is only as good as the weakest component. So as far as vinyl goes, my old Panasonic is probably the weakest link. I’d appreciate any recommendations/thoughts from the TT enthusiasts here and sorry for the long post. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 3230
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 11:46 pm: |
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No need to appologize for a long post. It got to the point IMO...
I owned an old belt drive Technics, which were very similar to the Panasonic TTs of its time. I think its probably from the same era as your's. The reason why I mention this is that when I upgraded to a Pro-Ject Xpression, it was a huge step forward. At the time I had an NAD 320BEE and PSB speakers.
I almost always suggest getting the best you can afford. It may or may not be the most expensive though. Furthermore, a better deck now will remain so if/when you upgrade the rest of the system. With that much vinyl in your posession, I'm pretty certain that you're going to use it a lot.
I own a Pro-Ject, but if I had to do it over again, I'd have gone with a Rega. I really like my TT, but the comparable Regas sound better and have more upgrade potential. They're iconic tables for a good reason.
I'd look into the Rega P3-24, Rega TT PSU (power supply - makes a HUGE difference) and Dynavector 10x5. With the rest of the money, look into an outboard phono stage. The phono stage in your receiver is most likely an afterthough and nothing special. In my experience, the phono stage is just as important as the rest of the stuff. Rega makes a good one. The Simaudio LP3 and Dynavector P-75 are better and easily worth the extra cash, but they cost more and more.
The Marantz is a very well made and good sounding turntable. Its made (and most likely fully designed) by Clearaudio. I think their are some after market covers for it. Look into Ginko.
A B-Stock VPI Scout will run you about $1400 from Music Direct ( http://www.musicdirect.com/product/83516 ). Pair that up with the 10x5 and you'll get a set up that's about as good as it gets. Add a phono stage like the ones I mentioned before. I'd look at the Simaudio as a minimum.
These tables may sound like overkill for your current set up. People may say they're too good. They may have a point. On the other hand, these tables will last forever. You have no shortage of vinyl to play on them. They'll sound a bit different from each other. I think the best built and sounding one is the VPI, but the others are no slouch by any means. They all have their fans.
A person on another forum posted this -
"I can't imagine anyone who loves music regreting buying a first class recordplayer."
That sums it up far better than I can. |
New member Username: Klismith
Denver,
CO
Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-09
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 05:07 pm: |
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Stu,
Thank you very much for the detailed recommendations. I’m clearly not an audio expert so I appreciate your thoughts. You presented a couple factors to be taken into consideration that I wasn’t aware of. I will have to do some research regarding the idea of adding a power supply and outboard phone stage. I don’t understand enough about their importance and the positive influence they can have on sound quality. I will look through my Yamaha receiver manual (RX-V3300) to see if it mentions anything about the built-in phone stage to see if it is of poor quality and an afterthought as you suggested. Although, even if I find reference to the phone stage, it probably won’t tell me that it is junk as that wouldn’t be a good marketing scheme. Maybe that is just something you have to know regarding the general quality of Yamaha products?
The store I visited recommended the Rega P3 as you did. They told me the more expensive P3, where you can pick your enameled colors, includes the power supply. This sounds like a good option. They sell it with a Rega Elys 2 cartridge installed. You suggested the Dynavector 10x5. Considering the Elys 2 is already included in the price, do you think the Dynavector is far superior and worth buying as an upgrade?
This store also had the VPI Scout and a similarly priced Marantz on display. I think I’ll go back to the store with a couple LP’s and listen to these three options and see what I like the best. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 9309
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 01:42 pm: |
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"You suggested the Dynavector 10x5. Considering the Elys 2 is already included in the price, do you think the Dynavector is far superior and worth buying as an upgrade?"
The Dyn is a far better cartridge however you may just want to run it with the Elys for awhile since it is included in the price. I've owned them both and have some frame of reference. The VPI is a good machine but I would scratch the Marantz as the dealer I know who sold it discontinued it due to build quality problems. The comparable Clearaudio (badged as itself) may be an option. |
Bronze Member Username: Dudywoxer
Scunthorpe
UK
Post Number: 82
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 03:22 pm: |
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I would suggest that if you can, go for the Rega p3-24, power supply, try and talk the dealer into not selling you the elys, (or at least listen to it and alternatives) and take something off the price of a Rega Phono instead. Cartridge choice is a very personal thing, and demo's can be hard to come buy. The 10x5 is a good choice, as the Denon DL110, or the current Ortofon 2m blue.
I am a real fan of Rega, but use a DL110 on my P25, into a Rega MC phono stage, and much prefer it to any Rega cart, and marginaly prefer it to the 10x5. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 3234
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 09:09 pm: |
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If you get a plain (no color) P3-24 and TT-PSU, it doesn't include the cart and is a bit cheaper. I'd go that route with a 10x5 rather than the Elys. If you can't afford all that and a good phono stage, I add the TT-PSU later. But that's just me.
Every part of the analog chain is equally important IMO. It all works together as on system (as does the rest of the system).
Yamaha isn't going to advertise their phono section as an afterthough. But, how many people with your receiver will actually use it? Of those that do, how many will have anything good connected to it? I'd guess that a good number of them are probably using a sub par turntable.
External power supplies take turntables to the next level IMO. No turntable runs at exactly 33.3 or 45 RPM. Power supplies (sometimes refered to as speed controllers) bring the speed significantly closer. All aspects of the music are improved.
It seems like you have a good dealer locally. I'd listen to what they have and take it from there. You'll learn far more about what this stuff sounds like than we can ever describe. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3611
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 09:56 am: |
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External power supplies always seem to provide the same benefits - lower noise floor (!), improved speed stability, better pitch and rhythm, and better resolution.
With a collection of 1500 records and fairly decent components, the minimum you should start with is a record deck around the same price as the components you have. So my recommendation is to start at the £1500 bracket. It's true that if you went crazy and bought something unbelievably expensive then you wouldn't be making the most of it because the other components won't let it do its thing. However, all the music has to come from the source. If the source isn't up to it, then the electronics can't do anything bar amplify and expose its limitations. I know you that you're quite taken with your Panasonic but it's sad to say that even if it were the most amazing record deck in its day, it's probably a little bit past it by now (well, I hope you occasionally changed the stylus, coz if not it's well past it). The reason it sounds good to you is that you're used to it, like a pair of old slippers which may be falling apart but are still the comfiest you've ever worn.
So the P3-24 is the minimum I'd recommend, preferably with a quality cartridge such as the 10x5 mentioned elsewhere. The maximum depends on the approach you take. As you go up in the turntable stakes, the quality of the phono stage counts for an awful lot.
Cartridges have very low outputs. Where a CD player produces a signal output of around 2 volts, cartridges produce something around 2mV (Moving Magnet or Moving Iron) or 0.2 - 0.6mV (Moving Coil). There is one other type called a High Ouput Moving Coil which has an output of around 1.5mV or similar to that of Moving Magnet cartridges. So basically, theoutput of a cartridge is between 1000 and 10000 times lower than that of a CD player or tuner. The phono stage has to boost this signal to a similar level as the CD player and that can be difficult to do without introducing noise from the circuit itself. You can spend thousands on phono stages which is why it's being mentioned by the others here. The phono stage in the RX-V3300 is another feature which Yamaha had to add to try and make more sales, but the primary role of the Yamaha is as a (good) surround receiver first. If you go to the Yamaha web site, the main page doesn't even talk about the phono stage. The features page says the phono stage is built for 2.5mV 47kohm load so it's designed for MM and high output MCs only. I suggest it's there to tick all the boxes. You have a serious collection and are considering a serious record deck - it's worth considering the extra phono stage.
Generally speaking, most people will agree that Moving Coil (or MC) cartridges produce a better sound quality than Moving Magnet (MM). High Output MCs try to take the best of both worlds - the higher output with the better fidelity. In direct comparisons between cartridges of the same model but different type (e.g Dynavector's 20XL and 20XH), the low output model is usually declared the better, but the high output one will not be disgraced. The Dynavector 10x5 is a high output moving coil.
You mentioned that the VPI Scout is over budget, but it doesn't seem that much over budget, especially considering that it'll probably last you quite some time (going by the Panasonic!  ) so the extra cost over a few years is a small price to pay when considering the potential gains which I hope you'll hear soon.
I suggest going along with up to a dozen records of different bands, different labels and different genres so you get a good idea of how the deck reacts to different music. You'll only play a few tracks from 3 or 4 records, but giving yourself some choice is never a bad thing, especially trying different labels since the mastering quality of music (modern or not, CD or not) is so variable that it can make or break a demo.
Good luck, and let us know what happens!
Frank. |
New member Username: Klismith
Denver,
CO
Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-09
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| Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 07:11 pm: |
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Frank,
Thank you very much for your input. I will definitely let you know what I end up purchasing and what the results are. I'm amazed at how helpful and knowledgeable the Ecoustics users are. I must have been thinking Panasonic and Technics were somehow related and listed the wrong brand. My old TT is actually a Technics SL-230, not Panasonic. That probably doesn't matter much as I'm sure it's still low end and very outdated. It does at least have a new Shure cartridge.
I'm going to seriously research all the recommendations I've been given here. At the moment, a new job search has become a priority. Shopping for vinyl and turntables is far more enjoyable than looking for work. Unfortunately, there seems to be an undeniable link between TT purchases and paychecks, go figure.
Thanks again,
Mark |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 3255
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 12:25 am: |
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Panasonic bought Technics a while back. According to a dealer who used to be a Technics rep, Technics built all the TTs. All were sold with the Technics name, and some were sold as both. Every Panasonic was a re-badged Technics.
A lot of people love Technics TTs. IMO they're great DJ TTs, but that's about it. I haven't heard one that holds a candle to a good Hifi brand TT (if that's the proper term). |
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