| Author |
Thread: Totem Rainmaker vs Epos M12i...it's WAR! |
    
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7139
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 04:30 pm: |
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It's official I will pick up a used pair of Totem (I hate misspelled thread titles...hence the repeat) Rainmakers next Saturday on my way back from Seattle. The M12i's have proven to be a little bold with high frequency and midrange energy for me...will the Totem be about the same...we will find out. I will know once and for all whether I can handle the Totem high end in my home. The winner will be in my second system and the loser will be out the door...there could even be 2 losers and my B&W 610i's could return to their place as the office speaker champ...stay tuned as this will be fun!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1888
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 06:58 pm: |
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There really are no losers here. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2865
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 10:17 pm: |
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Now I'm really confused...
Second system? I thought you were getting rid of a bunch of stuff, and having a one system in your office, and your HT. Which system will the Rainmakers be in?
Did I miss something?
Which components make up each system? I thought The Mira/Apollo/mmf3(?)/Epos was the main system in the office, and the Yamaha/R5s/possibly Creek was the new HT system.
Sorry if I'm a bit confused... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7145
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 10:35 pm: |
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You should be confused...I haven't been clear.
At first I was gonna narrow my systems down to one 2 channel and one HT. However when I went to sell my R5's I told my wife that I just couldn't (expecting fireworks) and she said that she was relieved and didn't blame me (jaw hits the floor). So I decided to keep two 2 channel systems...however I thought that the main one would move into the home office with the Epos and my MH 2.2LE table...not gonna happen...decided to keep all of the Rega stuff together and enjoy as the main system. The P5 I traded, I was informed today, had the main power supply blown. I didn't know because I only used the external...hmmm. Rega QC leaves a whole bunch to be desired. I've never bought just one table from them...every table needs replaced...not good.
So now the struggle is on to see what speakers will live in the home office with with the Creek 4330 and Rotel RCD971.
I'm also trying to slowly put together a system that my wife will love. She has shown a lot of interest of late and I would like to reward that and keep her interested. I bought her a new NAD C325BEE and I traded in my precious van den Hul The Orchid interconnects so that I could get 2 sets of vdH IC's and put one in my wifes system. I got the The Well Hybrid for my system...breaking in as we speak and The Name for hers which will start their work on Tuesday when we pick up her amp. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1632
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 10:42 pm: |
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Art I look forward to all your feedback on the speaker battle and the new amp for your wife.
Sounds like a blast. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1093
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 07:27 am: |
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Sounds like you have a pretty cool wife, Art.
As you might I remember, Epos was one of brands I was considering when I was shopping around for new speakers. Never got the chance to listen to them, though.
Someday... |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 129
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 10:39 am: |
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I too will be interested to hear how the Rainmakers fair.
When do you get them Art? |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 130
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 10:42 am: |
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Never mind Art. Should have had my coffee before I started typing and stopped reading.
I'll wait until next weedkend to ask how they sound instead.  |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7151
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 11:30 am: |
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I'll be picking them up Saturday afternoon on my way home from Seattle. Probably won't have a good chance to hear them until Sunday (although as we both know they will be hooked up 5 minutes after I enter the door). |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1101
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 09:10 pm: |
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I know exactly what you mean, Art.
But I was uncharacteristically restrained when I receieved my new Staffs. They sat in the front hallway for at least 5 hours.
It was killing me. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2866
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 09:53 pm: |
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The worst was picking up my B60 at my local UPS before I went to work. Staring at a Bryston box for 8 hours didn't exactly make my day seem shorter.
Have you heard the Yaras yet? Any thoughts? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7166
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 10:06 pm: |
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I heard the Yara's (used) at the same place I bought the Epos...it just wasn't your model...it was the floorstander...I'm a big AP fan. Would love to have a pair with some Naim gear...lean, mean music machine!
David and Stu you're both better men than I. I couldn't wait 5 hrs and Stu I'd a come down with a stomach thing...gotta go home.. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1105
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 08:26 am: |
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I just know the looks I would get if I come and start ripping open the speaker boxes instead of feeding the kids, letting the dog out, cleaning up the dishes, taking my boy to his jiu-jitsu class, etc, etc. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10446
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 08:36 am: |
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Party poopper |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 133
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:24 am: |
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Chores and kids. LOL. No wonder we can't listen to more music. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1109
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:26 am: |
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That's for sure, Ed. And after all the chores are done then my system is used for watching Dora or Power Rangers. Sheesh. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 135
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:31 am: |
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Well you have do what I do. I'm cultivating my daughter to enjoy Coltrane, Neena, Ella, Maceo Parker, Diana Krall and the occasional Mary J. Blige, Alicia Keys, Usher and so on.
Jazz and instrumentals definitely calms her spirit. Now the R&B on the other hand just makes her dance around the place. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7173
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:21 am: |
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Being older sucks in many ways...the fact that my youngest is 24 is not one...
Also having more than one system has it's benefits...I never used my system with TV...ever. Heck I don't use my cheap HT for TV...just movies.
I'm a curmudgeon...don't really even like kids...or pets...just wine, women and song as my Pops used to say...lol!
Don't get me wrong...anybody harms a child or a pet had best hope I'm nowhere near or there will be a price to pay...period. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7174
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:23 am: |
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BTW...what's funny is that kids and pets love me so as you can guess I spend way more time with both than I like...lol! |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 138
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:32 am: |
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"Don't get me wrong...anybody harms a child or a pet had best hope I'm nowhere near or there will be a price to pay...period"
Being the oldest, I have always felt the same about siblings, cousins and kids in general.
Now that I have my own, these feelings have maginfied to degress unimaginable. And then some..... |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3048
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:11 pm: |
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Wish I had my own - I fear we may have missed the boat on that one and for some reason I have yet to fathom I'm not exactly brimming over with enthusiasm to adopt. No idea why...
Anyway, on the subject of the rainmakers, I doubt you'll like them much Art. I think they're excellent speakers, but they take a lot of driving, good power etc. The treble isn't particularly hot, if anything it's not as hot as Arros, so you might like them after all.
Oh - and don't forget to replace the standard biwire links with decent quality wire. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1113
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |
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Does it really make that much of a difference? I guess I should do that too. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3050
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:43 pm: |
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David,
It depends on the system. In some cases, it makes a negligible difference. In some, it makes quite a big difference. You never can tell...
(This is deniable plausibility isn't it? ) |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1114
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:45 pm: |
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It is. But it's a cheap tweak, and is probably worth the effort. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7175
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:55 pm: |
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Yeah and I don't have much power for them Frank. I'll try 'em with my Mira 3 but they would live with my Creek 4330. I have heard them sound very good with a Rotel integrated and I think both of mine sound better than the Rotel..not by a lot but by some degree.
Not as hot is what I'm looking for, the Epos are pretty hot...although they seem to be getting on with Creek 4330 better than the Rega.
Interesting thing about the Brass jumpers...I've been using my own jumpers made from the the same cable as my speaker wire for the R5's...yesterday as an experimemt I switched to the brass jumpers...I was surpised...I decided to keep the brass jumpers in for awhile.
I recently switched from the vdH Orchid IC's to the vdH Well Hybrid (you ought to like this one Frank...loads of detail and not the kind you get from Nordost and Analysis Plus but the kind you get from better Chord cables + good timing and better timbre than any Chord cable I've heard) and I have to say that the Well Hybrid joins a select few cables that I've heard that is a knockout and at the price a steal. Very rough to start out but within 10 hrs the difference is profound. Getting back to my point, comparing the sound with the brass jumpers to the sound without.
With the brass jumpers the sound was far more 3 dimensional and had a better sense of scale and dynamics seemed to be what you expect and hope for. With the speaker wire jumpers the detail was greater but at a cost of imaging and soundstage realism...the soundstage is bigger but less realistic probably due to the loss of imaging. Bass is better defined...I do miss that with the brass jumpers but entire package is worth the loss. My guess is that if I were to use shorter jumpers...the length of the brass jumpers, it might be different...I'll not know as the speaker wire (vdH D-352 is just to stiff and tough to do that with...I do have some other ideas that I may try later...for now I'm just enjoying my Rega system sounding better than ever. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3052
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 01:01 pm: |
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Hmmm, interesting. I'll bear it in mind... |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 102
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:07 pm: |
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First of all, I am now officially never having kids. And in so doing will most likely lose the girlfriend.
Back to using the "want to go to my place and listen to music" line at local watering hole.
Art, I think a s/h NAIT is calling you? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7179
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:40 pm: |
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Oh yeah! |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 139
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 08:45 pm: |
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Let me be the first to give you great big pre-WELCOME to the club if you do go Naim. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7184
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:32 pm: |
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Can't go Naim my friend...too poor. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 140
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:40 pm: |
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Me too..but with a little hard work I found a way.
Oh yeah, sell old gear and use tax refund. LOL. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7186
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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I can't work that hard Ed...I'm a State worker..salary and no ovetime (and even if there was overtime I wouldn't work it...I love to play too much).
The only way I will go Naim is far enough into the future when I can buy a whole Naim system...that would be great. For now I'm enjoying a whole Rega system....very cool! |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 141
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:20 pm: |
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Yes yes. I'm missing the speakers, but your Rega setup is no slouch either.
As you know, I went in to buy the Apollo CD player, salesman played Sarah Vaughn on a Naim kit and the rest is history.
In the end it's all about the music. |
New member Username: 900ss
Post Number: 1
Registered: Jun-08
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:48 pm: |
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Art
To compare the speakers you need to wait till the totems are BROKEN in. They sound like crystal radio speakers for the first few hours and come to life after a month or so. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7189
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:52 pm: |
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The Totems are used and broken in already but thanks for the advice. The Epos are not quite broken in yet...those I need to work on... |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 105
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 12:37 pm: |
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Art,
I know you know EXACTLY what you are doing, and your experience in these matters surpasses mine to a great degree. And I am certainly not trying to convince you to get Naim. I just know you kind of like their presentation.
But curious why you think Naim is out of your budget.
I am thinking about an older olive or even CB NAIT.
I am sure you can source one for less than $500.
Terry has her old 92/180 on audiogon right now. $1200 total. And i imagine she would give you a sweet deal... Or even "payments"?
But mostly I am just playing around. I know you love your kit. Your all Naim system will be there for you when you are ready....
By the way, were you the one trading in Proac 110s? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7194
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 01:48 pm: |
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"But curious why you think Naim is out of your budget."
Because I have $0 dollars to spend on audio and will likely have $0 to spend on audio for the next 2-3 yrs. My wife and I are about to go through some difficult times financially and there will be no money for audio and nearly no money for music...good thing I already have a substantial music library.
"I am sure you can source one for less than $500.
Terry has her old 92/180 on audiogon right now. $1200 total. And i imagine she would give you a sweet deal... Or even "payments"?"
Teri and I don't get along too well...she did me pretty dirty at one time and as always with her she blames everyone else...I still do business with her if and when I must...but I know that neither of us are happy to see each other. If we ever get a chance to talk I'll tell you what happened, however I won't air the laundry here.
"By the way, were you the one trading in Proac 110s?"
Yep... |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 110
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 12:12 pm: |
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Art,
$0.00 budget, now thats a tough one to work with ;)
I am in the same spot right now, after amassing my current kit. I just bought a NAPSC and await its arrival. But that will most likely be it for the next year.... unless an olive hicap surfaces at an amazing price.
Luckily you have a really nice kit as it stands, and most likely soon a sweet 2nd system as well.
Maybe i should "loan" you my vinyl collection, as I dont have a TT...
I can see where one might have an issue or two with that store, although they has been very nice to me. I can only complain that they never call people back.
FYI, if you had been ready to unload them sooner, I would have bought them. She had me convinced they were ideal for the 92/180.
But once i factored in the price of decent stands, I started looking for floorstanders. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7206
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 03:34 pm: |
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ProAc makes a fabulous speaker, but I really believe that they are ideal for tubes. They are voiced with Audio Research tube gear and that sounds like the right match.
Even with the coming financial times I feel blessed...I have a great wife and kids and as you pointed out a quality setup (about to be 2) with and 2086 titles on CD (only 200 on vinyl...gonna have to improve that).
BTW we picked up my wifes new NAD C325BEE yesterday (last gear we get to buy for awhile, wish I could get her a better source...icky Sony changer) and it sounds very good. A perfect match for the Pinnacle AC650 speakers and the van den Hul The Name interconnect almost makes the Sony changer sound good...lol! |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 143
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 05:06 pm: |
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Sorry to hear about the upcoming financial troubles, but standfast and I'm sure you and your wife will come through with flying colors.
In other words GOOD LUCK friend!! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7210
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 06:57 pm: |
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Thanks Ed...we just have to tighten the belt for 2-3 yrs then if all goes well it'll be smooth sailing. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7213
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 09:43 pm: |
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For anyone who does not believe in the value of matching interconnects and speaker cable to the application or who does not believe in speaker or component break in....my are ya missin' the boat. The Epos are sounding considerably better and that should make for one heck of a competition this weekend.
Tomorrow it's off to Seattle to enjoy fireworks and cool record stores...probably won't be online after tomorrow morning until I'm dragging the Rainmakers in the house on Saturday afternoon...oh what fun we have! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7221
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 08:47 pm: |
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Rainmakers in da haus.
So far they are a much, much warmer sounding speaker than the M12i...never thought you would hear the words warm and Totem used in the same sentence did ya.
The Epos are a more exciting listen but at the cost of fatigue for me. Well I just returned from Seattle and am settling in for a couple of days of auditioning these speakers. One of these pairs will definitely be staying...which will it be?
Picked up 40 records...2 of the 3 records stores I looked forward to visiting have closed their doors...bummer. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 146
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 08:59 pm: |
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Congrats Art. Looking forward to a detailed review when you've had a chance to play with them. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1148
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 09:25 pm: |
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What did you find fatiguing about the Epos Art? A little too sharp in the high end?
As you probably remember these were one of the brands I was looking at when shopping around.
For what it's worth I find my Totems warm sounding too. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10490
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 09:26 pm: |
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Art, timing the run in time will be interesting. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7222
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 09:46 pm: |
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Remember the Totems are used and already run in. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1149
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 09:50 pm: |
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Mine are starting to sound a bit more full now, after 2 weeks. I don't really have time to listen to them a lot - an hour here, an hour there. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7223
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 10:06 pm: |
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The Epos are very, very revealing and tilted up in the upper midrange through the top end. They are hyperdetailed and almost addictive in that sense.
Both speakers have a little more high end energy at the top than I like but the Epos has the same energy down further toward the midrange which can make it seem somewhat more relentless. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7224
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 12:36 am: |
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Once the amp warmed up the Totems are not a bit more warm than the Epos just less detailed at the top and bit rounder and fuller at the bottom.
This is getting interesting. I had my wife in the room for a comparison of four albums, Mark Murphy - Love is What Stays, Rhonda Vincent - One Step ahead, Jan Garbarek - In Praise of Dreams, and Wynton Marsalis' self titled album. Much bigger bass with the Totems and bass definition is very good...the bass has more midbass definition and more wood (when acoustic) with the Epos..contrast is better with the Totems...colors stands in greater juxtapostion to one another however there is just whole lot more color in general with the Epos. The Epos have more high end energy than the Totems however they are less sibilant at the top. Voices sound good on both however singers have more emotion and interest with the Epos.
This is way closer than I thought with the Epos now ahead by a nose.
BTW if I had to choose which has the better fit and finish it would be very difficult as they are both beautiful speakers...probably give the nod by a hair to the Epos. Internally it may be a different winner but not having opened the Epos I wouldn't know. I did open the Totems as there was something rattling around in one of them...I removed a piece of something (debris of some sort...not part of the speaker, I think), fabulous crossover and parts....the Epos don't use an electronic crossover for the midbass driver they cross it over mechanically by design of the driver itself. The tweeter is crossed with a 1st order unit.
My wife believes that voices sound better with the Epos and instruments better on the Totems...primarily due to the contrast... |
New member Username: 900ss
Post Number: 4
Registered: Jun-08
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| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 01:40 am: |
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Art
What type of stand are the Totems on?
Mine sit on a raised fireplace surrond, solid brick that brings em to life,and they disappear.The only negative thing I hear is the bottom of the low end drops off interupting the fully live sound.
I think the Storm will solve this minor abruptness. There is now about 30 hours on them. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7225
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 09:05 am: |
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I'm using mass loaded Atacama Nexus 6 24 inch stands. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7226
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 12:26 pm: |
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Today's listening:
Norah Jones - Not too Late
Shirley Horn - I Remember Miles
Leonardo Balada - Cello Concerto No.2 "New Orleans, Concerto for Four Guitars...Naxos
The Norah Jones disc shows the speakers in great contrast to one another. The Epos is emphasize the voice while instruments though finely detailed are so far in the background that this disc doesn't really even sound familiar. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. The Rainmakers on the other hand sound render the music as familiar though with every word Norah sings more clearly understandable than I have heard on any speaker except the Epos. Here the music has more bounce and rhythm if less detail. Timbre is more accurately rendered by the Epos though the relative scale of the instruments seems off to me. The Epos sound bigger and fill the room more however they don't have the bass punch of the Rainmakers.
The Rainmakers are far less efficient than the Epos...more is required of the amp to drive them however it doesn't seem to be a problem for the Creek.
To clarify an earlier statement, I said...
"My wife believes that voices sound better with the Epos and instruments better on the Totems...primarily due to the contrast..."
The reason she believes that voices sound better is because they are presented in such a forward way with the Epos speakers. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10495
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 12:50 pm: |
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Keep trying them out, Art?
I would like to get a better context if you can point out which recording sounded best on each speaker set?
Of course, I might not be familiar with the recordings you select, but... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7227
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 01:01 pm: |
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Since I was pretty sure your last line was correct I was somewhat puzzled by the second line...lol!
With a little more sleep behind me I have to say that I think I like what the Rainmakers do more than what the Epos do...in that sense I believe that the Rainmakers sound better on all of the recordings but it is gonna depend on what the listener finds important.
The Epos are a well made very tight sounding speaker...however they need room to breathe and even then for me the high end and mid band energy is overwhelming...they really aren't as bright as the Totem's yet the Totems's are easier to stay in the room with as they present a warmer overall sonic picture.
I know I'm being a bit vague overall but I prefer to present my impressions as I go in real time than to write up something in the end. I simply don't have time to write to my satisfaction (I'm very picky when I write an essay). |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10496
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 04:11 pm: |
|
Will await your write-up, Art. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7228
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 04:41 pm: |
|
Wow Nuck...reading is fundamental my friend...lol! Read again...there won't be a write up...I'm giving my impressions as I go and am happy to answer any questions anywhere along the way. I probably wasn't clear again.
Back to work on Tuesday so answers will be a little slower on those days...however I will be checking...often. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7229
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 05:07 pm: |
|
Which would you rather see in your office...tough one?!
or
 |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10497
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 05:58 pm: |
|
The Totems at full excusion look good... |
Gold Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 1964
Registered: Nov-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 06:07 pm: |
|
That's a tough one Art - they both look very nice. But, that's not what it's about is it?
Love your rack - the one for the cd's that is. Lol! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7230
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 06:30 pm: |
|
Thanks MR. I bought 2 of them and you are seeing about 1/4 of one of them.
And you sure are correct about looks not being what it's about. The Epos come with a very nice grill and ofcourse Totem come without grills. Overall I think that the Epos are justa bit prettier however they have fallen deeply behind the Rainmakers as I've listened to them all day without a bit of fatigue (that is between chores like mowing the lawn, with ear protection ofcourse).
Nuck were you sayin' that you like my naked Rainmakers... |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 147
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 06:46 pm: |
|
I'm liking the looks of the Rainmakers. I know it's more than that, but they even have a cool name. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7231
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 06:53 pm: |
|
Yeah what's an M12i...?!? |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1150
Registered: Feb-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 06:55 pm: |
|
Is that the mahogany finish on the Rainmakers?
That's what I have for my Sttafs. By far my favourite finish on the Totems.
Like Ed said, it's there's a lot more to it than looks, but if a speakers got looks going for it, it makes the other stuff easier.
Kinda like life, I suppose. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 148
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 07:03 pm: |
|
I'm seriously thinking of picking up a used pair to do a shootout against my JM's.
Very interested to see how they comapre considering the price difference. And did I say I dig the finish..... |
Bronze Member Username: Lamcam
Orange County,
CA
USA
Post Number: 85
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 07:49 pm: |
|
My wife approved that color for my Sttafs . Yes, I like it too! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7232
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 07:58 pm: |
|
Indeed David it's the Mahogany...not a mark on it either...nice!!! |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1151
Registered: Feb-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 08:47 pm: |
|
Same with mine Art. I bought them "B" stock, and neither my wife nor I could find a scuff on them. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7234
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 09:17 pm: |
|
I really am liking them. They take a little more power than either Epos or the 4 ohm B&W's but they really reward with a little of what both of those speakers do well. Enough detail and drive to get a little piece of what the Epos do..albeit presented diiferently and smooth enough to listen to for hours like the B&W's, damn good combo.
OK so now I must save for my Naim/The One system...dreamin'! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7235
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 09:18 pm: |
|
Drivers are a little dusty and I didn't get an owners manual. Did get the original boxes (double boxed) though. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2871
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 10:43 pm: |
|
There is a fun way to get the dust off the drivers... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7236
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 10:52 pm: |
|
And it is.... |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2872
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 01:05 pm: |
|
Something along the lines of Led Zeppelin I played at extremely loud volumes. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7237
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 01:45 pm: |
|
Ahh... |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3059
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 02:08 pm: |
|
Nah, too bluesy. For real shakin' the dust off the cone noise you'd need something a bit more insistent such as Deep Purple's Made In Japan or Machine Head, Rush's Fly By Night or Caress of Steel, or perhaps some Hendrix.
Or you could just use a duster...
Interesting reading, btw. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7238
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 02:53 pm: |
|
I tried the Epos one more time and had a headache within a half an hour. Too damn much energy at the top. Epos designers were on to something I just believe that the execution leaves something to be desired...or if I'm not using the proper electronics or cables then by all means give me some suggestions. I emailed Music Hall and Roy said it's my system and not the speakers...until he found out that a Creek amp was involved then he blamed the Rotel CD player and told me to use the Apollo...I used and tried everything...some pieces worked better than others but nothing was able to tame the high end energy enough to keep me from having a headache and listener fatigue.
In short I'm on my way to UPS to ship the Epos back to the store.
I took a deep loss on all of this trading where I started out doing well. Trading nearly new Epos that retail for $1200 for Totems of god knows what age and with god only knows what kind of history of abuse (remember the piece of debris I fished out of the cabinet). However in the end it's about the sound and to me the Totems are a more complete speaker.
I only compared classical, jazz, and bluegrass music for the most part. Rock is a very small part of my listening time so I didn't use it at all. I will likely listen to the Rega system most of the time for rock anaway.
In short...the Epos gave a clearer picture into the music as they were far more detailed and open...however they were more open than seemed natural. To have that level of detail and also be listenable for long periods is probably at the next level and unobtanium for me at this time.
The Rainmakers, had I never heard Epos, would be the most detailed speakers that I've had in my system. The detail however doesn't come at the price of listenability. You do lose some of the emotion that vocals carry with them with the Epos however you gain better top to bottom coherence and the ability to fill a room with both bottom end authority and non fatigueing high end.
Anyone familar with ECM recordings (Tomasz Stanko, Tord Gustavson, Manu Katche, Charles Lloyd..etc) knows that they can often have a similar nearly etheral sound...you lose that altogether with the Epos. They are so open that you get all of instrumental detail and lose the sense of the space that the music was recorded in. You get that back in spades with the Totems..I guess you could say that in that sense they are as detailed as the Epos however they chose to focus on different details.
In the future when I buy my ultimate system...upper end Totem standmounts will be on my shortlist to audition...for now I have the Rainmaker and am content.
I open the floor to questions. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7241
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 08:20 pm: |
|
The Epos are on a truck bound for Portland...cost me less to ship than to drive 'em up. |
New member Username: 900ss
Post Number: 5
Registered: Jun-08
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 09:53 pm: |
|
Art
There isn't a owners manual, just advertisement with the specs and a warranty card.
I did'nt hear much about the bottom end, to me they are abrupt in the bottom end roll off, the deep room ecoustics meet an end point were they should continue to help fill the recordings image of room size. The One meets this but at double the price.Or the Forest, just dreamin.
Brewster |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7242
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 10:35 pm: |
|
The bottom end is full and rich and yes does roll off rapidly after about 40hz...which is a miracle from the size speaker and driver anaway. I think that the bass characteristics lend themselves to the reputation that the Rainmaker has as a punchy little speaker...full, tight and fast bass.
BTW The One is 4 times the price of the Rainmaker it's the Model One that's less...confusing aint it. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 150
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 09:13 am: |
|
Art,
Are you going to do the same tests with the B&W? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7243
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Why...I already own them and they ain't goin' anywhere for awhile. I'm trying to talk my wife into trying gthem in her office with her NAD C325BEE.
I can tell you how both the Rega R5's and the B&W's compare, but not until this weekend when I have more time. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 153
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:12 pm: |
|
B&W 610's were my first real speaker as the saying goes and I truly enjoyed them.
Enough to buy them right. LOL.
Since I'm thinking of shaking things up, I'm very curious to how they compare to the Rainmakers.
I would also love to hear more about your R5's when you get a free moment. Although they may be a little more than I'm willing to spend right now.
I'm trying to find somehting new or used for about $600 to try with my kit. At this price range I may not find anything to my liking, but we never know until it has been tried. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3060
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:27 pm: |
|
Verrry interesting. To give the EPOS their due, I have a feeling the biggest problem you had which contributed the most to the pushing forward of the midrange and slight toppy treble is the fact that you are using medium mass stands. The EPOS prefer a light frame stand for some reason, and then things come into line.
The Totems like a heavier stand. Have a play with the ballast in those Atacamas.
Oh, and yes, I'm surprised... |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 119
Registered: Apr-08
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:40 pm: |
|
Art,
Good thread. I really like the Rainmaker and I am enjoying your thoughts.
By best friend in New York is considering going to a Naim/LP12 kit. But he really wants to keep the Rainmakers.
He is currently using them with a underpowered Cayin tube integtrated. Byb no means id he getting everything from them, and he is pleased as punch.
Imagine how they will sound with a top flight source and Naim electronics.
I imagine he is going to pair them with the Supernait. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7244
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:57 pm: |
|
Already done (ballast and the Atacama's) Frank....
Relative to the new M12i they advertise them with a stand that is very similar to the Atacama and unlike anything they've used before. I feel that Epos has simply taken their design concept too far and have created an unlistenable speaker. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10501
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 03:33 pm: |
|
That might be exactly the case Art, overplaying your hand or the available materials... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7245
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 03:56 pm: |
|
Ed, the Rainmakers are usually about $600 used.
I will try to fit in a brief comparison of B&W's, R5's and the Rainmakers this weekend. I really enjoy all of them. One thing to keep in mind is that I'm using a very low power intergrated in the Creek 4330 with all of the speakers. It's an amazing little amp that doesn't seem to run out of juice with my style of listening with any speaker I use.
Nuck would have the whole thing blown up inside of 5 minutes...however for many of us 40 watts is plenty.
I've also used the Mira 3 with all of the speakers except the Rainmakers...I'll probably try that in a couple of weeks.
When using the Rega setup I used all vdH cables and with the Creek and modified Rotel setup I use a mix of Tributaries speaker cable and either the vdH D102 mkIII interconnect or the Kimber Kable Timbre interconnect. The Kimber with it's lower resolution actually seemed to have tamed the high end down in the Epos, until the next day when I realized I was so used to how bad it was that I was simply relieved to hear it change but in the end it was still unlistenable.
The Epos performed far worse in a large room with the Rega setup than in the home office with the Creek/Rotel setup...that surprised me. Much brighter and their lack of bass was more obvious...I'm getting excited to take the Rainmakers out there for a run...I feel that they will perform well there...but I've been surprised before.
The B&W's performed very well in the bigger room. With and without a sub they just sounded excellent. More on that later.
The Epos had excellent soundstaging and imaging in the big room and that's where the complements end...
What I can tell you is that I love my R5's more than ever as they are truer to the live experience than any of the speakers that I have mentioned in this thread. Far more natural timbre and far better relative scale to the instruments. They don't have the detail and that's ok...it ain't about detail it's about a coherent musical experience. The R5's (and R3's)are a truly killer value. If they ever upgrade that tweeter to the one they use in the R7...lookout!
Well lunch is about over...back to work! |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 154
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 09:30 pm: |
|
Art my space is rather small and my amp is only 50W.
I've learned to listen to music for quality and clarity. Loud for the sake of loud is okay every now and then, but it's not the norm anymore.
Right now I'm searching Agon for a pair of Totem or B&W (CM1's) maybe.
So your impressions will help greatly. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7250
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
|
Ed, What is your amp ands source (is it Naim?) and if you would be so kind, would you please ask me some specifiec questions as well as tell me what you are looking for in a speaker...what do you listen to primarily. I operate far better with some guidelines. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 155
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 10:29 pm: |
|
My kit includes the Naim Cd5i-2 and Nait 5i.2 running JM Labs 907Be. All Naim calbes & interconnects.
I listten to jazz, r&b, hip-hop, reggae and gospel. As you see I'm pretty diverse.
When I demoed my kit the Rega R7's were hooked to my kit. I guess I'm trying replicate that sound using a bookshelf speaker. It simply may not be possible.
I love my JM Labs for their clarity, detial and imaging. I would like to increase the imaging, soundstage and lower bass. My imagined problems may be solved by adding a sub.
My one question would be wether or not the Be tweeter can be matched by any aluminum dome tweeter? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7252
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 10:50 pm: |
|
Well you are kind of in a situation where you married two very dissimlar philosophies relative to the delivery of music by audio systems...Focal would not be my first choice with Naim gear...or my second or my third. They are fabulous speakers but just not my kind of match with your Naim stuff.
Totem Rainmakers are by no means in the same league as your speakers...not even. That said I would rather have the Rainmakers (and your gear ofcourse...lol).
The least I would look at from Totem would be the Model One and then I'm not sure if you have the power...Frank should be able to answer that.
Why didn't you buy the R7's? I love the R7's, better drivers than my R5's which I absolutely won't be parting with... not soon anyway.
Alot of folks match Naim electronics and Rega speakers...have you considered the R3, it's a very small floorstander with excellent balance and the same overall family sound as the R5 and the R7...something to consider. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2874
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 11:17 pm: |
|
Ed,
I've got a few suggestions, but don't want to hijack. It'll be pretty long. If you start a thread, I'm sure you'll get a bunch of opinions. Also, check out my Audio Physic Yara review I posted here a month or two ago if you haven't already. They'd probably match up very well with your stuff.
I fully agree with Art's opinion of your speakers paired up with Naim. |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 156
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 11:19 pm: |
|
Cool, I will start a new one. Thanks. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3065
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 09:43 am: |
|
Art,
We find that Naim and Focal are an excellent match. I'm surprised at your post. That said, I'm unfamiliar with the 907be's. I've never heard them.
Ed, you need to exercise care if looking at Totems. I find that Rainmakers can only just be driven properly by the nait5i. The Nait is a powerful amp for its 50wpc, but even it can run out of steam. A good combination is the Totem Arro. Also try the rainmakers but don't expect amazing results, simply because of the Rainmakers less easy impedance characteristics, especially after the relatively easy Focals (most Focals are easy to drive).
Have you considered Naim speakers? I think they do things no other speakers can do. In fact, I'm so convinced of this, I'm seriously considering buying a pair when my Naim amp is run in!
Finally, if you liked the R7s so much, why not buy them? |
Silver Member Username: Scorpio1
PA
USA
Post Number: 162
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 09:46 am: |
|
Frank,
I started another thread so we don't hijack Arts any further. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3067
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 09:51 am: |
|
Copy that! I ahve answered in there too... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7257
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 03:53 pm: |
|
"We find that Naim and Focal are an excellent match. I'm surprised at your post. That said, I'm unfamiliar with the 907be's. I've never heard them."
Having listened to them a number of times I stick with my statement. The dealer does not pair them together because they also don't like them together...different strokes. I also don't like Dynaudio and Naim...just a preference thing.
I find the Rainmakers, though they take more power get going than the Epos I had, still do amazing things with my 10 yr old, 40 watt per channel Creek 4330. I don't think they are difficult to drive in the same way as the Arro which can be driven more easily but not to that level which makes them special...
Now I've hijacked my own thread which is ok... |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1356
Registered: May-06
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 10:01 pm: |
|
Back to Art's thread...
Dusting off speakers?
Anybody try Ben Folds Five - The Unauthorized Biography of Reinhold Messner?
Not only will it dust of your speakers it will strip wall paper from walls in the process. Most shops I took it to for demoing have added it to their reference list.
Art, Why would you compare the Epos to Totems using a different interconnect for each one? Or am I a victim of only seeing one combination in your pics above? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7265
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 10:22 pm: |
|
The Epos picture was when it was in the Rega system long before I received the Totem's...geez Mike, I know better than that...you do get a prize though as I wondered if anybody would notice that.
However he who noticed should have notice that the turntable wasn't in both pics...in other words there were other diferences as well.
I compared them in the system that you see the Totems in..which was the most successful one for the Epos...giving them maximum opportunity to win. I never had to go to step 2 which was comparing them on the Rega system where the Epos already proved less than successful.
I have a friend with NHT Classic 3's who wants to do a shootout with my Rainamkers with the Rega gear...should be fun. We're still trying to arrange a date. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2885
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 11:21 pm: |
|
"However he who noticed should have notice that the turntable wasn't in both pics...in other words there were other diferences as well."
Is this like that game in bars where you have to touch the screen where the differences in the pictures are? |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10513
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 06:00 am: |
|
I jammed a buck into the PCM slot of my laptop...nothing happened. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7267
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 07:20 am: |
|
Nuck, I'm not surprised you tried.
I don't know Stu...I don't go to bars...I drink for less at home..lol! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7284
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 08:54 pm: |
|
Now it's time to run the Rainmakers against the Rega R5's...so far not so good. The Rega's presentation is so much more organic and natural. Certainly the Totem's outperform the Epos in the big room on the Rega system with the exceptions noted above...which include timbre and naturalness. Totems seem to be a bit off on the time phase relationship (perhaps), which the Rega's get right also timbre is better with the Rega's.
Totem = Glossy music
Rega = Natural
Totem = Augmented...not bad to look at but just doesn't feel right.
Rega = Natural...little rough around the edges but just seems right.
Enough with those analogies...geez!!!!
 |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2900
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 09:46 pm: |
|
How you likin' the Acryl-It? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7285
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:00 pm: |
|
Well the Totems are faring better with classical...listening to Claudio Abbado conduct the Petrouchka Ballet Suite with the London Symphony Orchestra on DG and the microdynamics are excellent with the Totem's. Detailnever a strength of the Rega's. Early discs today included Norah Jones - Not Too Late, Ben Allison & Man Size Safe - Little Things Run the World, and Nicholas Payton - From this Moment.
Want a disc that will put your low end drivers on alert try the Ben Allison disc...sounded excellent last night with the Totems and the Creek in the litle room and though not quite as good (probably placement played a role as I was still experimenting with it) in the big room with the Rega's it still was an excellent listen...bass good and tight and guitars and trumpet detailed and dynamic. Norah Jones on the other hand varied a bit by track but the there seemed a bit of congestion with the volume up and up it has to be.
Anyone who knows the Mira 3 knows that the volume has to be up high for efficient speakers and the the Totems I often ran it at 12:00 to 1:00...again not too alarming with the Mira 3 which for some sources and speakers will go nearly all the way...that's how it was designed.
As a reference I usually run it between 10:30 and 12:00 on the Rega's.
Nora is natural and relaxed with the Rega's and the guitars and keyoards sound more like they are in the room with me rather miked and recorded, however again there is less detail and so you are missing some of the music.
Nicholas Payton I just started before the BBQ grill called and burgers were on...more later. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7286
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:02 pm: |
|
Good Q Stu...I haven't played with it much yet but I have to say that so far so good...will put one of the other cartridges I own on the table in a couple of weeks and I think that will up the performance of the whole rig. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7287
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:05 pm: |
|
Looks cool!
 |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7288
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:32 pm: |
|
Well now I'm gettin' freaky and trying the freaky Totem Acoustic recommended diagonal hookup for a single speaker wire first tried Positive to the low frequency..Negative to high frequency wow was that bad....now the other way...hmmm...give it more a try out. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7290
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 11:51 am: |
|
The sound certainly improved with the recommended single wire connection. Better balanced...excellent bass response and not overwhelming at all on the high end...
In the end I wish I had room for to 2 primary systems (or even for placement of 2 sets of speakers) in the front room but I don't. Really the Totem's would sound best (check photo above for reference) very close to the where the Rega's are sitting but about 8 inches to a foot further in the room and 4 inches closer together. There present placement was in response to a couple of things...it took forever to get the Rega's exactly where I wanted and level (not moving them damnit) and if I get the Totem's any closer to the Rega's the Rega's then act as a side wall and the Totem's respond to that, any closer together and they don't image appropriately...closer to the back wall bass becomes bloated and any further out bass becomes thin...in part because they would need to be further apart to support placement further into the room. At present I have no toe in, although I did try slight toe in which caused an overemphasis on the high end.
All in good fun! |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1659
Registered: Jun-07
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Sounds like a blast Art. Two very musical brands of speakers in one great system. Bravo. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10529
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 01:06 pm: |
|
Art, I was going to point that out, in fact.
Aside from sympathetic resonance, the side firing issue makes the room even more difficult with multiple speakers.
Good work, keep it up! |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2903
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 04:56 pm: |
|
I like the Audioquest brush and Oznow Zerodust. I have both and use them religiously. I don't care what people say about carbon fiber brushes. My vinyl is so much better because of it. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7292
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 07:06 pm: |
|
I use both the Brush and a microfiber cloth from time to time. The Microfiber introduces more static it seems.
Alright onto the business at hand...
I decided that there is no sense in any of this if I don't remove the R5's and give the Totems room to breathe...and am I glad that I did. Below you see their final resting place, 24 1/2 inches from the rear wall and 6 ft 3 inches apart...end result audio nirvana...anyone need some R5's?!?!
More on this later... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7293
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 08:17 pm: |
|
Another shot of the final resting place...(for now)...
 |
Bronze Member Username: Lamcam
Orange County,
CA
USA
Post Number: 94
Registered: Nov-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 01:19 am: |
|
Great Art! I am glad you've found the winner, although I am supprise that you like the Totem better. I am very enjoy your review and waiting for the "war" between the Totem and the NHT. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10534
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 02:16 am: |
|
That's the right way, Art.
Big difference, huh? |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1362
Registered: May-06
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 11:04 am: |
|
Art, how does it sound with the draperies pulled closed? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7297
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 11:25 am: |
|
They don't get pulled closed. They are actually just for decoration as there are not enough panels to pull across...hence the custom blinds.
There definitely will be more about how the Rainamker's sounded without the Rega's in the room.
Presently my wife is preparing for a week out of town and we are kind of tied up in business...also considering options for the home office if the Rainmakers remain in the main system...
Let's see...hmmm Mites...Dreams...Classic 2's...? |
Gold Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 1966
Registered: Nov-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 05:02 pm: |
|
I was going to ask the same question. Ever considered some heavy drapes to pull across Art - could make a beneficial difference. Maybe an experiment with a blanket or two could see if it was worthwhile. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7299
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:33 pm: |
|
No...never considered it as this is the living room and heavy drapes are...well not what we want in there. Have to make do with what we have. We spent a tidy sum on the silk panels and custom blinds as it is. No more window treatment money where that came from.
Blankets...guys I have a wife...and enough taste to not want to do that. What if it did sound better...then what I hang blankets in the living room...I don't think so. I'm limited to placement and the obvious things you see...if you don't see it won't be added. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1169
Registered: Feb-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:52 pm: |
|
Good call Art. If I started hanging blankets over the windows my wife would reel me in pretty quick.
Someday when I have my own listening room I will be able to do whatever necessary. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7300
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 08:12 pm: |
|
I will probably never have more than my 9x10 home office which ofcourse shares duties with my office equipment, music collection and a host of other things. I have to draw a line somewhere and room treatments unfortunately have to be kept to a minimum...doesn't mean that I rule them out altogether, but I have to minimize their impact on the living space...what little there is. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2906
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 08:15 pm: |
|
Good taste is part of doing whatever is necessary in my book. Not that I'm remotely close to being Christopher Lowell or anything like that, but a listening room should be livible.
I have total say in my listening room, and I wouldn't hang a blanket over the window. But that's just me. Not to mention that natural light and a nice view adds to the experience. Not that I have a nice view... |
Gold Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 1967
Registered: Nov-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 10:46 pm: |
|
Hey guys - if you read my post, the blankets were for an experiment only - to find out if heavy (drawable) drapes were an option. I certainly understand the WAF!
Then again, the drapes might work in favour of the R5's and then it would be back to work - oh well.
I recall before John A moved back to England and he had a window between his speakers and that the drapes made a good difference for him. That is if I remember correctly. No guarantees there! |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 137
Registered: Apr-08
|
| Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 11:48 am: |
|
Art,
I knew the Maka's were going to win the brawl.
Nice thread.
I am curious about the wiring you now are trying...
So was it biwired in the first place? Or simply single wired with the "jumpers".
I see how you have it currently. Interesting.
Have you tried replacing the jumpers with short links of the exact speaker wire you are using? |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1365
Registered: May-06
|
| Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 11:52 am: |
|
Even though I generally ignore it I understand the WAF. I have one room which I have completely taken over and done what I want with as most of you have seen the evidence to. I went the other way than most of you. I have made the room centric to the audio experience above all else as that is what I want the room for. Over time, I will work to make it more co-inhabitable. But simple things like what draperies to select, what furniture to put in the room, what room treatments to employ, what wall to put my system on were all made with the listening experience as a priority. I figured with everything I have done to make it the most accurate and live sound to my ear I was not going to compromise on SQ.
This is my hobby, for some it is painting, some it is gardening, some it is cars, etc. Getting to this level and doing things that would diminish the ability of the system I invested in is not logical to me.
When I had a shared space I had to deal with a log of angst and frustration from my wife. If this is the worst thing I ever did to her then I think we will survive. Some may see that as selfish, I see it as compromise. I do not weigh in unless asked on the decor anywhere else. She has free reign to do whatever she wants outside of my set-up.
I take it from reading the above posts that most of you would not agree with my approach. I think I also understand why Art and others here do the best that they can with their listening space within reason. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7301
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 03:53 pm: |
|
You guys partly misunderstand on the it's more about the MAF...me acceptance factor. I don't want heavy drapes, don't like 'em. I make most of the decorating choices in our home. I have 1040 sq ft and I don't want it to look like an anechoic chamber. I don't mind it if it's obvious that I love music and the equipment that reproduces it. That's why I work with placement and will in the future look for soft artwork for the wallsto compliment the jazz artist posters. Again, my wife and I don't live in a 3000 sq ft home where there is room for everything we want to do...we make do.
So yeah you are right Mike..doin' the best I can.
Patrick...I first biwired with Tributaries bulk biwire cables in the Creek/Rotel setup. Then I used the vdH D352 in the Rega setup. I am using the provided brass jumpers as I have just very little spare wire and at 10 ga it's not easy to work with. I had jumpers made but I don't like the spades...they wind up being worse than the jumpers. I have some other ideas that I may try later with the jumpers.
I tried several ways to connect the speakers....pos and neg to HF...both to LF and then both ways for the diagonal connection and by far I liked what I settled with which is the pos to HF and neg to LF. Best overall balance.
Well,lunch is over...back to work! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7302
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 03:57 pm: |
|
BTW I'm still lovin' the R5's got 'em in the office 4 inches from the back wall...oops back to work! |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 151
Registered: Apr-08
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 02:15 pm: |
|
Michael,
I would venture that we ALL agree with your approach.
Some just dont have the luxury you do.
Either their significant other is more demanding/controlling, or they dont have a "spare" room to claim as their own.
I am sure we would all enjoy having a hassle free, dedicated listening room, and a very understanding wife/GF.
Unfortunately, the real world calls.
In my case, I can put my hifi anywhere I want, and the GF is cool with that. But in my 3 bedroom home, there is only one suitable place/room for it.
Since that happens to be the main living area, I have constraints to deal with. Luckily the Arivas sound good up against the wall, and my couch is easily repositionable for critical sessions. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10547
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 05:29 pm: |
|
Mike's listening room is a playground, and very effective.
Just trade off the other 2000 sq ft...
Seems to work! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7306
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 05:57 pm: |
|
Huh?!?! |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 152
Registered: Apr-08
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 06:38 pm: |
|
Art,
I am interested in what you end up deciding after listening with the speaker wires for a while.
How powerful is your Creek anyway??? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7307
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 09:14 pm: |
|
The Creek 4330R is 40 watts per channel.
http://www.soundscapeav.com/creek/4330.html
Ask a specific question relative to the cables Patrick and I'll be happy to try to address it. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 544
Registered: Jul-07
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 05:32 am: |
|
Interesting thread! Just found it and have only surface skimmed it so far. Cool pics!
I was interested in the Totems since reading raves in Jazz Times, who like much of the gear that the folks here do, eg Rega and many more. I recently noticed the Rain... on AgoN. Why do I keep looking at that stuff?!?
I WANT THE R5 SPEAKERS! I can pick them up.
I have some thoughts but will start a B & W thread. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7309
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 07:16 am: |
|
BTW I have decided to keep my R5's Kevin...they are just too unique to let go. I also know me....next week I'll decide I like the way they sound better than the Totems...nice problem to have...I had considered the B&W 685...and maybe as alternative to my B&W 610i's but not to replace the others. And since I alreeady have the 610i's, probably not. BTW read some of the 685 reviews...one of them was written by a fella who uses the 610i as a reference. I would post a link...but I'm getting ready for work and don't have time to look. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7354
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 02:01 pm: |
|
Well I'm pleased to say that I'm getting outstanding performance from both of my systems now. Absolutely the 2 best and most synergystic systems I've put together yet...more later. |
Silver Member Username: Markusp
Toronto,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 172
Registered: Apr-04
|
| Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 10:46 pm: |
|
Hey Art - who makes the acrylic platter on your turntable?
Been thinking of trying one out on my P3 but the only real option I have found is from Iron Audio. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7357
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 07:20 am: |
|
It's a Pro-Ject accessory, $99. |
Silver Member Username: Markusp
Toronto,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 173
Registered: Apr-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 07:24 am: |
|
Thanks - I don't think it would fit the P3 though. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2914
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 04:17 pm: |
|
According to my source, it won't fit a Rega deck. It's too tall and won't fit the sub platter right.
I've heard the Iron Audio platter is pretty good. Another company makes them as well - Groovetracer? Deep groove? Can't remember the exact name, but something along those lines. The also make a bunch of other Rega accessories too. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7362
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 06:28 pm: |
|
No it's not for the Rega...those cost a bit more. A good investment IMO. Gotta tell ya after I messed with the VTA on my humble little table this weekend and got it dialed in, I can say that I'm getting unbelievable performance from the deck. Equal to my P3/Elys combo and in some ways better. No more tables without VTA adjustment for the arm. |
Silver Member Username: Markusp
Toronto,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 175
Registered: Apr-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 10:01 pm: |
|
Art - that's interesting. I definitely like the look of your Music Hall 2.2. Am I correct in guessing that it is a re-badged Pro-ject since the acrylic platter fits? If so, what model of Pro-ject is the 2.2 equal too? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7364
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 08:20 am: |
|
They are both Pro-Ject and Music Hall) made in the same factory in Eastern Europe making neither brand and a rebadged anything. The 2.2 is between the Debut III and the Xpression III. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3091
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 09:08 am: |
|
Music Hall is made in Europe? They're almost completely unknown here in the UK. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2917
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 12:16 pm: |
|
I believe the factory is in the Czech Republic and owned by Pro-Ject. Both are made there, but each one is designed by its respective company. To cut costs, the Music Hall tables use a lot of Pro-Ject parts - tonearms, platters, sub platters, and so on. I think the main differences are plinths and stock cartridges.
Until Pro-Ject raised their prices (1Xpression was $500, now $700), Music Hall tables used lower end Pro-Ject parts than comparably priced Pro-Ject tables. When the Xpression 2 and MH 2.2 were the same price, the Xpression 2 had a better platter (acrylic vs aluminum on the 2.2) and tonearm (carbon fiber vs standard aluminum). |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7365
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 01:44 pm: |
|
The MH 2.2 just went up to $500 and has upgraded platter, plinth, feet and arm. The arm is the one used on the original MH 5.0. I hate the new feet so I removed them which leaves the screw which the foot was attached to, which I put in Vibracones after removing the metal ball bearing from the cup on top. The results were nothing short of fantastic. Then I dialed in the VTA/SRA and was blown away. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10571
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 03:44 pm: |
|
Great stuff Art! |
Silver Member Username: Markusp
Toronto,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 176
Registered: Apr-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 11:04 pm: |
|
Art - I admit its been a few months since I regularly visited the forum, but didn't you used to own a P25? How does the MH 2.2 compare? I would expect that there would be a substantial difference in performance between the two, but that's not to say that the MH isn't a stellar performer for the money.
Just curious. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7378
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 12:02 am: |
|
I owned a P5 with the external power supply and the Dynavector 10x5...it was considerably better. However not as much better as it should have been at it's price. Were I to have it to do over I would choose another rig at that price and I would buy local/regional. My poor decision to not buy from a regional dealer is why I sold the P5...bad vibe, don't know how else to put it.
I bought from a regional dealer with the 2.2 and I enjoy it more. It ain't the be all end all but it'll suffice until which time I can actually afford an upgrade. I'm considering the Shelter 201 cartridge for the 2.2...I really think that will take the performance to 90% of the P5/10x5 for less than 40% of the cost...I like that. |
Silver Member Username: Markusp
Toronto,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 177
Registered: Apr-04
|
| Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 08:13 am: |
|
Thanks for the update
The important thing is that you are enjoying your new rig! As you said, no bad vibes and plenty of fun.
A used Sota Star is tempting me right now |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7382
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:02 am: |
|
Sota makes a nice table. It's suspended table and some folks prefer them, others not so much. |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 185
Registered: Apr-08
|
| Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 01:43 pm: |
|
I have my eye on this:
 |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7388
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 02:07 pm: |
|
That looks like Kevin's...cool green! |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 550
Registered: Jul-07
|
| Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 02:40 pm: |
|
Love that P3!
I did not really choose the color, but jumped on a dealer demo model at a good discount.
I was not able to a-b test against more expensive tables so I just enjoy it not really knowing. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10588
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 03:43 pm: |
|
It's not easy being green...Kermit. |
Bronze Member Username: Kbear
Post Number: 67
Registered: Dec-06
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 08:03 pm: |
|
This was an interesting thread.
I know one speaker measurement doesn't necessarily reveal all about a speaker, but maybe this is what Art was hearing when it came to the Epos:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/708epos/index2.html
A definite emphasis from 700Hz to almost 3kHz, and maybe some in the upper treble as well. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7403
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 09:56 pm: |
|
Thanks for the link Dan. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7436
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, August 01, 2008 - 09:28 pm: |
|
Well last night I tried the different connections suggested by Totem in the single wire setup again and although my brightest albums lost the edge completely with the Pos on the woofer and the Neg on the tweeter...it also lost the excitement...end result, I like it just fine the way it is.
So all is wonderful...what does that mean...ofcourse I have to ?uck with it. I moved my REL 205 sub into the system and OMG...the synergy between the bass repsonse..(already prodigious and near legendary for such a small enclosure from the Rainmaker)...and the REL is fabulous. I'm having more fun with my music than I have in ages...yippie!!!
Another glass of wine anyone! |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10611
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2008 - 07:59 am: |
|
Great stuff Art! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7450
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 10:56 am: |
|
Though I enjoyed my time with the sub in my system as they worked well together, in the end I'm not a sub person. Like it better without. I made a few placement tweaks...1/4 inch here and a 1/4 inch there, and the setup has reached yet another peak...much fun. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 554
Registered: Jul-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 02:28 pm: |
|
Art- Good fun!
"... in the end I'm not a sub person..."
True, I would rather not, but one needs speakers that are adequate without a sub, so I am guessing then that the Totems have much better bass than my Quad11L which are a little short of realistic bass on the music we listen to, ie upright jazz bass. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7453
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 05:47 pm: |
|
Oh yeah the little Rainmakers dig pretty deep Kevin. 40hz in room and with authority. Upright bass sounds fabulous. Very satisfied with the Totems. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 558
Registered: Jul-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 08:47 pm: |
|
I just noticed that Totems are available used while very few Rega are. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7456
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 08:58 pm: |
|
Very true Kevin. You see Totems on the used market here frequently and rarely see Rega's...
I'd guess that's partly due to the fact that many more Totem's sell here than Rega's, though I'm not sure that accounts for it.
As you know I acquired my Totem's used...sounding good. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 559
Registered: Jul-07
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 09:07 pm: |
|
I had better quit thinking about speakers! Maybe next summer some floor standing. Will put Totems on the short list.
For now I will play with the Rega/Dyno. Have not worked on that project yet. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10616
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 09:52 pm: |
|
Way many Totems for sale in Ontario, guys.
Never see a Rega |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1723
Registered: Jun-07
|
| Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 08:57 am: |
|
Totem has become very popular. I think they have become more 'main stream' than Rega's. Not saying that Rega is not as good or course. I just think Totem's marketing team is a hell of a lot better.lol. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7459
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 02:04 pm: |
|
Also contributing to seeing more Totem's for sale...at least I believe...
folks buy Totem's and expecting to use them with inappropriate amps and sources and as a consequence getting a less than stellar result. You have to bring "it" with several models from Totem or expect to be disappointed. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3123
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:11 am: |
|
I would argue that a major reason why you don't see many Regas for sale 2nd hand is because many Regas aren't sold. If there are more Totems bought then there's a likely correlation to the number of Totems sold.
You don't see many Naim speakers for sale either and guess what - they're also a minority market speaker. |
Silver Member Username: Lamcam
Orange County,
CA
USA
Post Number: 108
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:39 am: |
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Strongly argreed! Same apllied to Dynaudio, B&W, too many for sale... |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2933
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 01:59 pm: |
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Less being sold = less being offered on the second hand market. Most people who buy Rega speakers have complete or near complete Rega systems. Very, very few people have Rega speakers with nothing else Rega in their system. Same goes for Naim. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7461
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 03:46 pm: |
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"I'd guess that's partly due to the fact that many more Totem's sell here than Rega's, though I'm not sure that accounts for it."
"I would argue that a major reason why you don't see many Regas for sale 2nd hand is because many Regas aren't sold. If there are more Totems bought then there's a likely correlation to the number of Totems sold."
As you can see Frank that was my first inclination as well. However I think there may be a bit more to it. Rega's are easier to drive and probably yield satisfactory results more often than Totem's for the reason I mentioned in another post...lack of system synergy...just a guess though.
Often folks with Rega speakers do own other Rega gear as you said Stu...also alot of Naim users own Rega speakers. |
Silver Member Username: Pcstockton
Post Number: 191
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 04:51 pm: |
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Art,
I first heard the Rainmakers with a REL sub (not sure what model) and WOW is all I have to say.
When did you get the sub?? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7462
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 06:12 pm: |
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I've had it for a year and a half. I removed it from the system as I like the Rainmakers better without. They match well but with a few placement tweaks the Rainmakers are great without it. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3127
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 11:23 am: |
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Art, you make a very good point about the Regas' ease of drive. That must count toward their rarity on the 2nd hand market too I guess. Incidentally, I didn't mean to suggest they were sub-par by their lack of sales. They're more niche market, like Naim speakers are.
And I agree that Ranimakers, when properly driven, are difficult to beat as well as extend using a sub. The sub has to be very good indeed, better than most people would contenance.
Mani-2s are the same. I use them exclusively on stereo, but in surround mode I prefer to limit their output and get the sub to do the work. |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1624
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 04:45 pm: |
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Im acctually suprised you like the Rainmakers Art,good to see you enjoying them,the Epos were a bit disapointing.The Rainmakers are very enjoyable,though somewhat flawed or tailered should I say,but they are a whole heap of fun,my father loves the Rainmakers,congrats! |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10650
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 07:06 pm: |
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Tdog, you are alive after all! |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1625
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 07:17 pm: |
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Yep,Nuck im back! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7516
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 10:13 pm: |
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Hey Tawaun...welcome back my friend.
If by flawed you are talking about the litle midbass bump, it really works well in my room. And unlike poorly designed speakers the bump is not followed by port chuffing...instead it's followed by very detailed and articulate bass down to under 40hz in room...not bad. Don't you agree?
Great to see ya back TW! |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1904
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 10:29 pm: |
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Hey T, hope all is well. |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1626
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 03:58 am: |
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Thanks Nuck and Christopher,its good to be back I missed you guys. |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1627
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 04:15 am: |
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Yes Art,your right,I spent 2 months with the Rainmaker me and my dad I had the Arro's and the Forrest at the same time,I enjoyed the Rainmakers more than Forrest,there snappiness was a blast to listen to.But the to be fair to Forrest and even the Arro I only had the Nad gear for the 1st month,I really nailed each speakers characters down when I got the Unison Unico and Musical Fidelity 3.2cdp in the house,and even then I still enjoyed the Rainmakers more than the Forrest which were a huge letdown.The midbass hump I found out before Stereophile even did the review on the Rainmakers.With the Unico in the Tow the Arro's stole the show,only against the Arro's could I tell the Rainmakers weakness's Totem really used the Ls3/5a bass trick better than any I've heard,very artfully done by Vince Bruzze the mans a genius! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7548
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:37 am: |
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Yeah I like the Arro's as well and had a chance to get them when I picked up the Rainmakers. Since I knew that there was a chance they could wind up in the main listening area and be used without a sub I felt that the Rainmakers were the better fit for my needs. Totem makes amazing speakers for the dough. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3169
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:20 am: |
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Welcome back Tawaun!
In the right system, the Forest will knock most other Totems into a cocked hat! But it is far more demanding of the system and environment than most other Totems. The Forest has deeper bass and better midrange clarity than the others but this easily sets off typical smaller rooms which have a natural 40 - 60hz bass resonance. Anything around 13ft in length or width will have this problem.
Also, the Forest will show up any weaknesses in the electronics as grainy screechy treble or an overblown bass so it really needs electronics with clean clear delivery and serious grip, not necessarily a lot of power but a strong damping factor or good slew rate to be able to control the speaker. Once you have fulfilled these criteria, everything from the Hawk down except the Model-1 is an also ran...
...in my view of course! |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1629
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:27 am: |
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Thanks Frank,I commented about the Forrest in another thread,yes they need plenty of care to bring out their potential. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7707
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 06:10 pm: |
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Well fella's it's your golden eared audiophile friend...you know the one who can tell the difference between a Bryston amp and an NAD...LOL!!!
Alright, I'll quit being a smart a s s...here's the skinny...Epos is now admitting on there website that they fukked up the first batch of M12i's...check my "Right or Wrong" thread for a link to a revealing post on the Epos & Creek forum...yesterday that post was followed by a post from Luke pointing to some new info posted by Epos on their FAQ page...
http://www.epos-acoustics.com/faq.php?pro=Mi+Series
Art was right it was unlistenable and to the knotheads who reviewed these speakers and said that careful system matching is required....LOL!!!!!!!!! Crackheads!
Sorry...but I had to. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1832
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:43 pm: |
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LOL but Art...They measured so well...impossible...LOL!!!
Bryston? NAD? Are they not the same thing?lol kidding. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7718
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 11:21 pm: |
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"Of all the speakers I've heard that are currently available, I can think of no speaker that produces greater sound quality for the dollar than the Epos ELS-3," marvels Robert J. Reina in the January 2004 Stereophile."
Hey Nick, apparently ole Bob Reina has these religious experiences with budget speakers quite often. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1835
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 12:13 am: |
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lol good ol Bob Reina. Has he ever disliked anything? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7722
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 02:11 am: |
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Well fella's did ya read that link I directed ya'll to from Epos on their website...so whaddaya figure happened here...
http://www.techradar.com/products/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-av-speakers /epos-m5i-407620/review?artc_pg=2
It appears that the speaker that has been ok all along...ain't. I'm thinking that this new series ought to be Epos undoing...they should be ashamed for releasing that pile of doo doo to the public. All the fukking money in the world and they haven't the good sense and decency to make sure they release a quality product...or even a product that can be listened to...
Here's a little piece of info I was gonna spare ya folks from but I guess reading that review pis sed me off.
I get home today (from a 3/12 hr round trip) and open the box with the new Epos ELS 3's in light cherry and what do I find...a used and beat pair of 3's in black...peeling vinyl. No owner's manual or any of the other things that come with them. The dealer had no way to know, these were still sealed with the packing slip on them and were labeled light cherry. This is Music hall being their usual unscrupulous selves and fukking up to the point that they didn't even get the right color speaker in the box...nice eh. When you buy from Roy it's buyer beware.
Well that's about enough for now... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7723
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 02:14 am: |
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Oops I forgot the good news:
Upon hearing about this debacle the dealer being fabulous...shipped another pair right away and I should have them tomorrow or Monday.. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10746
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 06:43 am: |
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What in the Sam Hill is going on there?!? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7725
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 10:19 am: |
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I dunno...but I'm guessin' that if they keep it up they'll have more explaining to do than they have business left to worry about. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2997
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 11:37 am: |
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Now I know why my dealer opens every box up before it leaves the store, regardless of what it is. They also try to test everything in the store before it leaves. MOst of the time they deliver and set up the stuff themselves though.
Maybe that happened to them once?
I doubt that dealer will let anything Roy Hall go out the door before opening it up ever again. I'm glad he/she took care of everything. I bet there's a dealer or two out there who would dispute it and accuse the customer of trying to scam them, or tell them to take it up with Music Hall themselves. Just another reason why to do business with a reputable dealer. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7730
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 01:14 pm: |
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Absolutely agreed Stu. I have an excellent dealer...Echo Audio in Portland. Kurt is just one of the truly good guys in audio and a legendary name in the Oregon audio industry...because of his service ethic. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7742
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 09:53 pm: |
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Well the scandalous bas tards at Epos have removed the frist post of the thread that started me down the road of "Right or Wrong" direction. All that is left is Luke's post pointing to the Epos website FAQ page where ofcourse they admit to their folly in a way that doesn't make 'em look bad...that is ofcourse except for the censorship on their web forum...silly fools.
Today my new pair of ELS 3's arrived and they are in great shape...oh and they came with a few of the luxuries one may expect in a new pair like....an owner's manual....serial numbers and a color that matches what's written on the box, and ofcourse a sound that say they are many hours from being broken in. They are just the cutest little boogers.
Now my doggone R5's may be homeless again...Hmm. I must figure out a place to put them. They are so dang good. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 3001
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 10:10 pm: |
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Wait a second... You're the guy who got the beat up ELS 3s? I thought you were telling us about someone else.
My initial reaction is the reaction I still have: Wow.
Sorry man. That's a tough hit. Glad to see Kurt took care of you. You've commented about how he does things before. Glad to see he's still at it. Some people take customers for granted. |
Gold Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1409
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 10:51 pm: |
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That's some crazy sh!t Art. I was really close to buying Epos awhile back when I was speaker shopping. Makes me glad I didn't give them my hard earned cash. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7747
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 11:08 pm: |
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I think that the vintage Epos like my friend Jim has are fabulous...the ES11 and ES14. Even the M12.2 is pretty darn good...this new line just stinks. I think that the little ELS3's may have a happy life in my office...remains to be seen. They are breaking in tonight.
Tomorrow the boys will be here with the NHT Classic 3's...a new shootout begins. One of the fella's has some B&W 685's. I asked him to bring 'em, I don't think he will. |
