| Author |
Thread: Cartridge change for a Rega P3 |
    
New member Username: Dimi
Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 04:10 am: |
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Hello everyone
I recently had an accident with my stylus(a Goldring G1022)on a Rega P3 and I am thinking of upgrading my cartridge instead of just changing the stylus. I want to keep using my MM board on my Densen B110, so I am only considering high-output MCs (thinking that they would be better than MM's of similar price). Also budget is an issue, 220-230 euro would be my roof. So, the:
1. Denon DL-160 (130 euro)
2. Dynavector 10X5 (not sure, more than 200 probably)
3. Sumiko Blue Point No.2 (230 euro)
seem the obvious choices. I mostly listen to rock, electronica and some jazz. I would appreciate any comments and recomendations.
Thanx! |
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Relevant Product Info
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12739
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 09:56 am: |
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The Rega arm is good enough to work with any cartridge in your price range. You have to decide what sort of sound you would prefer. And I wouldn't necessarily conclude MC's are going to be better than MM's in this price range. They each have their virtues and cheap MC's aren't always telling of what a truly high end cartridge can produce. Don't disregard the MM's just because someone told you or you read about some mc that was giving you a "taste" of what a good MC can provide.
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Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7097
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 09:54 pm: |
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The Dynavector 10x5 is a natural match for the P3 and works well with any kind of music. It's an excellent tracker and is also very quiet. |
New member Username: Dimi
Post Number: 5
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 02:11 am: |
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Thank you Art and Jan for your comments.
Jan, I wouldn't disagree of course, it's just that it's not easy to audition different cartridges for obvious reasons, so I'm relying heavily on recommendations and reviews. And obviously, I'm not expecting high end with my budget. But anything better than what I currently have would be welcome. I will happily read your recommendations -oh, and my amp is a Densen B110 (so maybe you get a picture of what my cup of tea tastes like). |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12744
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 09:59 am: |
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Nope, sorry, I don't know the amplifier.
I understand how difficult it is to audition cartridges. There has never been a good way to go about it even when vinyl was the only option for high quality sound.
What I'm saying is you need to decide what is important to you. We have not much more experience with any one cartridge than you do and our perspective will be colored by the same limitations you are working under, only different limitations based on the system we heard the cartridge working with and our own preferences. How valuable does that make our "recommendation"?
Rather than have us tell you what we like, I think you would be better off telling us - and yourself - what you like. Don't buy a MC just because people talk about MC's as being this or that. There are excellent cartridges at all price ranges if you know what you are looking for. Telling me you own a specific amplifier doesn't tell me what you want to hear. I don't know why you bought that amplifier. I've sold products simply because they were the right color.
Lay out, in specific terms what you want to hear - what are you priorities and how are they not being fulfilled at the present time? Once we all know what you want, then it's much easier to find.
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New member Username: Dimi
Post Number: 6
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 11:16 am: |
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You're right Jan, I'm sorry for the sloppy post. Well, I'll try giving you (and me!) an idea.
The Densen allegedly belong to the "Naim camp" of PRAT. When I audiotioned my B110 side by side with a Nait 5i with my speakers (the modest but reliable PSB Image T45), I found it to be as fast and precise as the Naim, but with more "air" at both the low and high ends, and much more transparent and easy going. It's a very enjoyable amp, with very smooth sound while it allows you to follow every instrument even in complex recordings -its only "fault" is that the bodies are a bit on the thin side (sorry about the terminology, I'm just directly translating from Greek sometimes -I hope you get the meaning).
So, to try and put it simply: I would appreciate a fast, accurate, rythmic and yet smooth sound, plus a wide and deep soundstage if possible. Also, as I own a lot of old vinyl, low surface noise is important. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7100
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 01:31 pm: |
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That would be the Dynavector 10x5.... |
Bronze Member Username: Dudywoxer
Scunthorpe
UK
Post Number: 66
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 06:40 pm: |
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I would add a denon 110 into the mix, I have compared it with 10 x 5 on a P25/rb600. In some areas the 10x5 wins out, in others the 110. The 110 was renewed in my system, as it did just that bit more that pleased me in my system. A bonus is that in the UK a 110 is GBP65-70, the 10 x 5 is GBP 250.00. The differences between the 110 and 160 are small, the 160 may, just may be a touch more forgiving of surface noise on old vinyl, but the biggest difference is one is red, the other blue. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12747
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 - 10:27 pm: |
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I don't normally do recommendations but I would suggest you consider the Denon. Unless they have changed the sound of the cartridge the Denon is an inherently musical cartridge. Not much in the way of fireworks but very musical. In that same category I would, from what I've read only, suggest the new Ortofon line, the Blue should be in your price range. Once again a very musical cartidge line as are the Grados.
Staying with moving coils with reasonably high output, I would consider the Benz line. If you are looking for a bit more flash and analysis of what's in the groove, then the Sumiko or the Dynavector you mention would be good choices.
Those recommendations are based on my tastes considering what you have told me you believe you are looking for. Heck, I'd even give the Audio Technica OC9 a consideration just because I think it deserves more attention than it gets.
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3045
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 07:54 am: |
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Not wishing to put a spanner in the works...
Dimitris, Goldring have recently launched their new 2000 series of cartridges. These have impressed me very much in Rega decks. The new top of the range 2500 (£185) is particularly sweet with good depth and excellent rhythm and swing. My experience of Denons is that they offer very good value for money, but I always feel they leave a little bit to be desired in emotional communication. This is also true of the Audio Technicas. Very good technically, all the pieces are there, just not quite hanging together to give a performance.
Regards,
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Byam
Post Number: 54
Registered: May-06
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| Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 08:27 pm: |
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The Dynavector 10x5 is a wonderful cartridge at its price point. Currently I am using it with my Rega P5 with pleasant success. Keep in mind that you will need a Rega 2mm shim under your tonearm should you decide on the 10x5. |
New member Username: Dimi
Post Number: 7
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 02:20 am: |
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Hello everyone
After taking every one of your advices (also from a thread I started in Greece, that had very similar views) into account, and after reading every review and similar thread I could find, I bought the Benz Micro MC20E2. I reached the conclusion that any one among the Denon, the Dyna and the Benz would be fine, but:
1. The 10X5 in Greece is 90 euros more expensive than the Benz (that's about $140)
2. It was crucial for me to have someone more experienced than me do the adjustments on the TT, and the Benz dealer was much more flexible with these arrangements and also had the cart in stock.
3. As for Frank's recommendation that I always value, the 2500 was way above my budget (the initial plan was to replace my cart for the price of a 1022 stylus, that is 150 euros), and I took into account Thomas Sillensen's (Densen's chief designer) opinion that a high output MC would be a perfect match for the B110's phono stage.
I am very happy with my first few hours with the MC20E2, I will let you know once it settles (if anyone's interested, that is).
Thank you everyone for being so helpful! |
Silver Member Username: Wattsssup
Barrie,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 267
Registered: Aug-06
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| Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 02:40 pm: |
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We are definitely interested D. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 533
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 04:03 am: |
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I would like to try a better cart in my Rega P3 but am apprehensive about being able to do the work properly with my pipe wrenches and torches. The closest turntable dealer is 2500 miles away.
Another concern is that if I cannot install the cart properly then I will probably not get the old one back on right either.
Are my fears realistic? Do I need special tools and instruments? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12776
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 09:22 am: |
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You need a small group of average tools and lots of patience - along with good eyesight or a magnifying glass.
http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 534
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 02:59 pm: |
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Thanks a million Jan!
I can get the tools and the mag glass, but not so sure about the patience.
Maybe my Rega Elys2 cart sounds ok for now after all. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7207
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 03:36 pm: |
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"I can get the tools and the mag glass, but not so sure about the patience.
Maybe my Rega Elys2 cart sounds ok for now after all."
LOL!! |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 535
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 04:52 pm: |
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But seriously, do you think the improvement to the Dynavector 10x5 would be worth all the effort? (And possible frustration?) |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10466
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 04:57 pm: |
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Probably, Kevin.
Since you have sooo much light these days, you my as well use it to help with the squinting.
Relax your ham-fists with a Scotch and set it up, man.
The nuts that hold on the cart require a 3mm wrench. Grow your nails, LOL! |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 536
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 06:15 pm: |
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I may as well give it a try. I have plenty of time since I don't work much, esp when fall comes. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7209
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 06:56 pm: |
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"But seriously, do you think the improvement to the Dynavector 10x5 would be worth all the effort? (And possible frustration?)"
Yes. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 537
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 01:47 am: |
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OK, I'll shop around. Do your OR guys in your profile sell it? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7217
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 08:12 am: |
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Yes...Eugene HiFi does. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 539
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 03:12 am: |
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Thanks, I wrote to them 
shhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell the boss! |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3061
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:38 pm: |
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Kevin,
The Dynavector does not have a stylus guard unfortunately, so please exercise care. Don't be timid with the cartridge, just exercise care and attention. Thankfully, at long last, the latest 10x5s have turned holes in the top plate so it's much easier to fit than it used to be.
Personally, I attach the wire tags first (using small long-nose pliers), then holding the body at the sides, raise it to the headshell and screw in place. I use the small nylon washers that come with the cartridge too, so they don't mark the headshell.
Important note - for correct VTA, you need a 2mm spacer for the tonearm since the Dynavctor (along with most cartridges) is taller than the Regas. This is important otherwise it doesn't sound half as good. Fit the spacer first, then the cartridge. You need to remove the arm from the deck to fit the spacer below it. If you have a P3 or Planar 3, the arm is an RB300 and you need to remove it by undoing the huge nut under the arm from underneath the deck. Also remove the tonearm cable grip, then thread the cable through the hole where the base of the arm was. Slip the spacer (a 2mm thick aluminium ring in this case), all the way up to the armbase and reapply the arm. The large nut holding the arm in place is larger than most spanners allow so check before you start!
If you have a P3-24, this has the newer RB301 which has a 3-point mounting at its base located in place by 3 screws. You still need to go through the same palaver, but you're bound to have a screwdriver...! |
Bronze Member Username: Byam
Post Number: 56
Registered: May-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 06:49 pm: |
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When I mounted my 10x5 to my Rega p5 I first removed the tonearm in order to install the spacer. I slid the spacer onto the tonearm, fished the wires back through the base most of the way, and at that point I mounted the cartridge loosely on the tonearm. With the tonearm not inserted into the base I was able to have easy access to both the top and bottom. This made mounting the cartridge easier for me. With small needle nose pliers I placed the wires very carefully on to the cartridge. Then finished mounting the tonearm on the base. Finally the cartridge position adjustments. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 540
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 04:38 am: |
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Thanks much Frank. If I remember, you had recommended this cart when I first got the table but I waited to see how I liked the cart that came with it. I did but am getting to be an LP nut again.
Great info!
Thanks to Bill too.
Now with all this help I can't back out! Art's guys have the spacers and the gage so I will be all set apparently.
I will let you know when the time comes. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 543
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:46 am: |
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It is in the mail  !!!
shshshshshshshsh!
Art, your guys are fast and efficient. Dale helped me. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7310
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 07:32 am: |
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They are very good with customer service. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3078
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 09:50 am: |
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oooh oooh tell us how you get on.... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7315
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 09:10 pm: |
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You mean how Kevin is enjoying the cartridge Frank? |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 546
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 02:20 am: |
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It is still in the mail but I will report when I install it. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3082
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 10:29 am: |
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er...I was just trying to add to the tension...badly. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 568
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 01:53 am: |
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I still have not started the cartridge swap out. The Van den Hul alignment gauge is supposed to have instructions on the back. If that colored paint is words, maybe I can use the scanning electron microscope at the university to decipher it.
The website says: "Our mirror-scaled Cartridge Alignment Gauge allows for a fast and accurate optimum alignment of your phono cartridge.
Alignment instructions included."
Perhaps technically true, but in reality the instructions are useless to me. I can gaurantee you that old man A.J. van den Hul cannot read it! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7483
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 02:16 am: |
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A.J. gots good eyes brotha! |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 569
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 12:53 am: |
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Another thing, on examining the tt, I see the cartridge is held by allen, hex screws, so not the tiny screwdriver I had handy. This is going to take a while! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7504
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:03 pm: |
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Did ya get it done Kevin? |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 571
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 04:58 am: |
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No luck, the tool store was closed for the weekend, but Eugene HiFi came through with the instructions, so I will get with it soon. Great service from them! |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3149
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 12:55 pm: |
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Kevin, the 10x5 should come with its own screws which are not allen key jobs. Use the screws that come with the cartridge. The latest versions of the 10x5 have self tapped screw holes so the screws must be the same type otherwise you could cross thread the cartridge which would be annoying... |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2944
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 02:02 pm: |
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I think he was referring to the screws that hold the present cartridge, not the 10x5. He doesn't have the tools to remove it before installing the 10x5. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 573
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 01:17 am: |
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True, the old Rega Elys2 cart is held with 2mm hex screws. I bought the allen tool on the way home from work then went to sleep!
I see the Dyno 10x5 came with 2mm hex screws as well as new wires. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3154
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 09:36 am: |
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Ah that's right, they switched to hex screws - and I think the cartridge comes with an allen key doesn't it? |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 575
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 01:29 pm: |
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No key, I bought one Mon, hope to do it Tues after work. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 576
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:00 pm: |
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So I finally got the Dyno installed! Thanks to all for the input.
Sounds great. Worth the effort. First test was a classic piano trio that I had just played before: Ray Bryant- 'All Blues' on Pablo with Sam Jones- bass, Grady Tate-drums.
For something lively to catch my wife's attention: Abbey Road.
1- The instructions say to use 2 grams VTF dial. The turntable had been set by the dealer at 1.5 so I am going with that until I get further information.
2- One strange thing is that now the needle does not lift off the lp with the lever arm. I have to lift it higher by hand or it scrapes across the lp. Apparently the 2mm spacer that comes with the cartridge does not raise tone arm enough. There is not enough thread hanging below to add another spacer. There was barely enough with the 2mm washer. I have to say that this cartridge is too tall for this table. Somewhat annoying, "a fly in the ointment"
Could I go with a thinner mat? Now I have the felt one that came with the table.
I wonder if I removed the plastic washers from the cart, would it be enough? Probably not. They aren't that thick.
I am not going to do that now after going through that tedious calibration. The Van den Hul gauge would be a lot easier to use if they used dark ink for the center line to distinguish it from the other 10 parallel white lines all running together. With the invisible instructions, I am somewhat underwhelmed with that tool, but it did get it done.
Now on to some ECM lps! |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 7515
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:42 pm: |
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That doesn't make sense Kevin....Frank will be along with words of wisdom...but with the 2mm spacer my 10x5 had plenty of clearance on my P5...I'm sure that it should have with yours as well. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 577
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 11:03 pm: |
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Possibilities: ?
1-cart needle is pointed/pulled down more than it should be,
2- mat is fatter than normal,
3- nylon washers should be on top instead of between cart and tonearm |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 578
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:11 am: |
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I pulled the washers out from the cart screws and now the needle does not touch when the lever is up until it gets to the last song on the lp. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 3159
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 11:38 am: |
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Kevin,
Some observations:
The nylon washers are to protect the top of the headshell from being scratched. They're meant to be threaded onto the screw first then the screw placed over the tonearm headshell and screwed into the cartridge.
I don't really understand what's going on in point 2 when you say "Apparently the 2mm spacer that comes with the cartridge does not raise tone arm enough." I didn't think a 2mm spacer came with the cartridge. I'm assuming that you're talking about the Rega spacer which fits under the tonearm itself. A genuine 2mm spacer does raise the cartridge enough for it to be about right.
If you need to raise the arm more than you are getting currently (and it sounds like you do), this can be done. You need a very very fine allen key, no idea what size. When you use the lift/lower wand to raise the tonearm, there's a hydraulic lift on the other side whichraises a curved bar. The curved bar sits on a vertical column that sits in around enclosed well. The well has a grub screw which you can loosen using the very very fine allen key. Once loosened, you can pull up the curved bar a couple of mm to make the arm rise higher.
Do NOT use a thinner mat - that'll change the presentation of the deck (subtly).
Use 2gm VTF. 1.5gm is way too light and will sound a tad undisciplined, lightweight and just plain busy. 1.5 suits the Ortofon, not the Dynavector.
Cheers,
Frank. |
Silver Member Username: Kevincorr
Fairbanks,
Alaska
Usa
Post Number: 579
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 03:04 pm: |
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Thanks Frank!
To raise the curved tone arm lifting bar would be good. I see the tiny (maybe 1mm) screw which seems to be holding the bar on the vertical post. Since the bar is on the top there wont be much height to give. I will loosen it and see what happens.
I had put the nylon washers between the cart and the arm but now put them on top of the tonearm as you said. Now the needle only touches toward the center.
The 2mm spacer, which went under the tonearm, came from the Dynavector dealer (Eugene HiFi).
With it under the arm, only about half the threads show through so the nut is held on by half the threads instead of the normal minimum "full nut". While googling around for info I see that there is also a 4mm spacer washer available (needledoctor, md etc). No way would you catch a thread at all underneath to put the nut on.
I did go back to the 2 gram setting right away, so I got one thing right on my own!
OK, now to go get the 1mm hex tool. To be continued.... |
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