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Thread: Archive through May 21, 2008 |
    
New member Username: Bigdavve
Tampa,
FL
Post Number: 1
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:56 am: |
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I am buying a bar! The former owner is taking the audio system with him, it was home gear, a decent Yamaha receiver and CD player running 4 bookshelf speakers and a powered sub. This isn't a nightclub, there's no need for booming loud sound. It's about 900 square feet in the bar area with a 12' ceiling. I'd like to upgrade things somewhat, so I talked to a pro audio guy, he said he could put together a good system for about $10,000 installed. That's more than I want to spend. I have a lot of experience with audio, installing a system here would be no problem for me. I am leery about using home equipment though. I know the last guy seemed to do fine with it, I'm just wondering if it's nuts to expect home gear to hold up if it's on for 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week-even if for at least half of the time it is at fairly low volume. Yet, I don't have much experience with pro gear, I know that the connectors are different and there are other differences, so I'd feel more comfortable buying home gear. The budget I came up with is:Receiver $500, 2nd Amp $400, CD Player $200, 6 Bookshelf Speakers $1500, Powered Sub $400, Wires/Cables $300, Miscellaneous $500. That's $3800, a lot less than $10,000! Any ideas or comments? |
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Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10133
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:03 am: |
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DS, you might want to run down to the Guitar Shop or Music dealer ans see about pro stuff. Powered monitors, a small board, etc.
Pro stuff uses balanced connections, thats an XLR...good connections. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 204
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 07:23 pm: |
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The budget I came up with is:Receiver $500, 2nd Amp $400, CD Player $200, 6 Bookshelf Speakers $1500, Powered Sub $400, Wires/Cables $300, Miscellaneous $500. That's $3800, a lot less than $10,000! Any ideas or comments?
Dave, we do home audio in bars all the time. It's just a matter of matching the gear to the needed volume. Speakers don't mind being used, just mind being over driven. I'd spend more on the sub, maybe less on the speakers because the sub will be under the most strain. Maybe 6-8 smaller speakers and as big and powerful a sub as you can afford.
We're using Sonos as the sound source these days. Then you can play any and all CDs from a hard drive, you've got a back up with its internet capabilities and you've got a preamp. Or use the ZP100 with its sub crossover, allowing the small speakers to play louder.
Two Sonos ZP100s + controller = $1400. 4 pair PSB B15s or similar, about $1200. Two PSB 5i subs or similar, around $1000. Speaker cable. That would work pretty well. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12602
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 08:10 pm: |
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Why don't you find out what he actually wants first?
How loud are you expecting this to play when it's not at a "fairly low volume"? Background levels? Shout at the bartended levels? Do you need thump from a sub or just music in the bar? Any sound reinforcement work or just music in the bar area? What's the overall goal of the system? What's with the 2nd amp in your set up? You say you'll have 900 sq. ft. in the bar area. Are you trying to confine the sound to that area or allow for spill over to another area?
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 206
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 09:39 pm: |
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Jan, he very well spelled out what he wanted. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2701
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 10:07 pm: |
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In this situation, I'd personally skip the CD player and go for something like a music server. The Sonos John mentions is an excellent choice from a user friendly point of view. Its a bit expensive though, and I'm not sure if the internal amps are up to the task of powering speakers for as long as you want them to.
A less expensive option may be to go with some sort of iPod dock. I've seen a few different ones made for this type of application. The Basketball team I work with has a Numark iPod dock set up in their locker room. The guys like it, its easy to use, and seems durable. I'll see if I can find a model number tomorrow at work.
I'd be willing to bet that pro audio gear would probably work better in this situation than home gear, as its primary design goal is most likely durability. Furthermore, a lot of companies' warantees state that the gear is for non-commercial use. Using it in your setting may void some warantees, if that's a concern. You should verify that before you buy anything.
If you're set on home audio gear, you may want to consider Class D (aka digital) amplification. It runs significantly cooler, thus expanding your installation possibilities, and possibly has a longer shelf life if left on and playing constantly. Excessive heat isn't very ood for regular gear, and Class D gear may may fair better in this regard. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Either way, good luck with your new business. I'm pretty sure this is the least of your concerns. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 207
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 10:17 pm: |
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Stu, so far, so good with Sonos running dual speakers are pretty high volumes, though I imagine we'll break one if we keep pushing them further and further. Another thing we do is use something like the Sherbourn TST amps with built in speaker selectors run directly from the Sonos ZP80 as the source/volume control. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12604
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 10:54 pm: |
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Jan, he very well spelled out what he wanted."
Right, fishy, I forgot, with you one size fits all. He said he doesn't need booming loud sound. 900 sq.ft. of open floor plan probably doesn't require two subs for non-booming loud sound. If it does, he can always add a second sub later. Maybe he just needs a CD changer to keep operation simple. What do you have against asking for more information, fishy? Oh, yeah, I forgot, you don't listen to new information.
DS - Mind answering my questions? Also, who would have access to the equipment when you're not around?
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Silver Member Username: Magfan
USA
Post Number: 198
Registered: Oct-07
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| Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 01:15 am: |
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Since, I presume, nobody is going to be doing any critical listening, you could skip the music server and go all the way to an I-Pod. A 30 or 40 gig will hold a months worth of tunes without repeats. |
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New member Username: Bigdavve
Tampa,
FL
Post Number: 2
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 01:57 am: |
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Sorry, I was very busy the last couple of days and hadn't checked the forum. I have been doing quite a bit of research on pro gear and I have learned quite a bit. I think I will probably use pro gear for the amps and mixer/preamp it just seems like it would be more durable and the warranty issue does come up, like was mentioned. For speakers, I'm still unsure. Pro speakers are BIG$$$$ for good ones, any ideas for a good value in a bookshelf size speaker that can handle a lot of power (100-200 watts continuous) and is fairly sensitive? I will be there quite a bit, but I am going to keep the main controls like volume level as simple as possible for the employees. As far as sources go, the Ipod idea makes sense, I'd like to have one night a week where customers could bring in music to play, either CD's or they could bring their Ipod and I could plug it into the mixer. As far as the question about volume, I want the ability to crank it up, even if I rarely do. I'd like a little thump to the bass, but I don't need to shake the building next door. I'm thinking of 2 subs, maybe 12's powered or passive. I have a revised budget, for which I have already tentatively selected the gear for, except for the speakers-here it is:
CD Player-Denon pro 5 disc-290
Mixer/Preamp-Rolls-240
EQ-Alto-120
Crossover-Alto-110
2 Speaker Amps-Crown-800
6 or 8 full range speakers-1600
Subs and amp-1000
Cables,wire,misc-600
So that's 4760 total, but I think it's worth it to get the pro gear. Any suggestions for speakers/subs? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12606
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 01:07 pm: |
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If that's the direction you want to head, look at powered monitors and scrap the power amplifiers. You might want to consider what content you could expose all your customers to if you allow anyone to plunk their favorite CD or iPod into your system. If you want to crank this system up, I don't know that I would go the iPod route but I suppose after a few drinks, no one other than the few audiophiles who wander in would care about the source quality.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 209
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 01:43 pm: |
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Powered monitors increase installation hassle dramatically because you need power everywhere and increases maintenance hassle and lowers reliability because of the constantly vibrating electronics and inability to run as cool.
Why do you need a mixer?
I've found that pro gear is more expensive for lower sound quality and more hassle. We have had to pull out quite a bit from different installations because of either the low quality, the poor installation or product failures.
If you want real room EQ, you could do some thing like an NAD T175 preamp, then set the unit to stereo mode and use Audyssey room correction. A little overkill, but better than cheap EQs that are bound to be set wrong or screwed up by people messing with it. Besides, EQs end up lowering the dynamic range of the system.
Most of the under $500/pr Canadian speakers can handle lots of power - PSB, Paradigm, Energy, etc. We've seen people using Bose or other low grade speakers for decades in bars and while they suck, they don't seem to break. It generally takes disco levels to break most speakers.
Of course, if they can manage to give you an actively bi-amped system with good EQ, that's not a bad way to go if the performance meets up with the potential. You could use the same EQ and crossovers for all the speakers. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12608
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 09:41 pm: |
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"Powered monitors increase installation hassle dramatically because you need power everywhere and increases maintenance hassle and lowers reliability because of the constantly vibrating electronics and inability to run as cool."
Only partial BS. Yes, you will need to supply AC Voltage to each powered monitor. How you do this is up to you and your building codes inspector. Whether this set up works into your plans is not something to be determined by any information you have so far provided.
You should consider powered monitors and weigh their advantages against their disadvantages. Any decent shop without a bias toward being right all the time should assist you in selecting the proper amplifier/speaker set up. Go talk to a dealer and let them sit down with you on a quiet weekday to discuss what you should consider. Everything you choose is a trade off of sorts, you simply need to decide what trade offs suit your needs better than the others. The BS about vibrating electronics and so forth is just that - BS and should be ignored. Somebody here has an agenda.
]
You've now worked your way up to almost $5k without installation. That's still a long way from $10k but you're gradually working your way up there. Who will do this install? How much more will that cost?
If it were me and I knew as little about this as you seem to, I'd give some consideration to who will back up this installation long term. Are you going to troubleshoot this yourself if something goes wrong or are you going to come to us for help? At the money you intend to spend without installation or back up service, I'd go back to your original "pro audio guy" and ask for another bid that stays within your budget. Then go set a budget to stay within. Ask him about the advantages and disadvanatages of doing this yourself vs. using him. If you want this bar to be here for 20 years without constantly changing out the equipment, you'll probably be better off putting the money in up front.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 222
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 10:05 pm: |
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So heat and vibration don't affect electronics? Jeez, well, then why are our subs with outboard electronics, oh, about 10 times more reliable than those with built in amps? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12610
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 01:23 am: |
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"So heat and vibration don't affect electronics? Jeez, well, then why are our subs with outboard electronics, oh, about 10 times more reliable than those with built in amps?"
Don'know, guess you sell crap subs.
Crap subs aren't powered professional monitors. The sub will take care of itself and the powered monitors won't have to deal with the problems found in a subwoofer. Give it up, fishy. He needs to talk to someone with whom he can banter ideas back and forth, not someone with a fixed agenda to be right. He doesn't want what you suggested. Now don't go on about this. Go sell a crap sub instead.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 226
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 10:09 am: |
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The same holds for pro monitors we've sold. Far more likely to develop amp problems if the amp is internal. Could be coincidence, but i doubt it.
From the looks of it, it's more like he doesn't want what you suggested and is getting external amps. i've done dozens upon dozens of bar, restaurant, hotel, retail systems this way, how many pro powered studio monitors have you installed in a bar? That's what I thought. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12611
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 10:37 am: |
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"The same holds for pro monitors we've sold. Far more likely to develop amp problems if the amp is internal. Could be coincidence, but i doubt it."
Gee, you would think the industry would notice if what you say is true. Internal amps have reliability issues? The industry doesn't seem to think so since they've been building them by the hundreds of thousands for decades. You're full of crap, fishy, and you apparently sell crap that breaks.
"From the looks of it, it's more like he doesn't want what you suggested and is getting external amps. i've done dozens upon dozens of bar, restaurant, hotel, retail systems this way, how many pro powered studio monitors have you installed in a bar? That's what I thought."
I stopped counting long ago. Is this how you're going to "assist" people on this forum, fishy? Anytime anyone disagrees with you you're going to try to turn this into another 200 post thread going back and forth? You just have to be right and you have to have the last word, eh?
DS - Think about the points I mentioned in my previous post. Who will be responsibile for the installation? Who will troubleshoot any problems that arise? How quickly for both and at what expense? Will someone provide loaner gear if you have down time?
If you don't have answers for these questions, I suggest you contact your pro audio guy again. If he can't cut his budget and you can't change your mind on what you told him you wanted, then shop around. There must be more than one pro audio guy in your area.
Or, just wait for fishy, I'm sure he'll be back to add the last word here. My final advice, don't buy anything from anyboby who insists on having the last word.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 227
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 10:46 am: |
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Jan, thankfully, I'm not selling anything. Did you stop counting at zero or what? Notice that PA speakers don't have the amps built in. Aside from flexibility, there are reasons for that. Keeping amps separate also means that you can easily swap a failed amp channel without a technician or voiding warranties or losing a whole speaker. It's not a terrible thing to do internally powered monitors, but it does up the cost, install complexity, repair rate, expense and hassle. |
Gold Member Username: Gavdawg
Albany,
New York
Post Number: 1128
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Monday, May 05, 2008 - 10:53 pm: |
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"Powered monitors increase installation hassle dramatically because you need power everywhere and increases maintenance hassle and lowers reliability because of the constantly vibrating electronics and inability to run as cool."
I take it you have never heard of MeyerSound, L'Acoustics, and JBL
all 3 make self powered speakers for arena concert sound, and are meant to be driven LOUD. If constant vibration was really an issue, these self powered designs would not continue to be prevalent (especially in the world of sound reinforcement) due to the need for reliable equipment. FOH engineers need good sound and reliability, not one or the other. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 250
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 10:34 am: |
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So, Gavin, you have extensive experience gauging the reliability of speakers with built in amps vs speakers with outboard amps? Or you are just saying that since someone makes both products, they must be equally reliable? Because the latter is faulty logic. I can't prove whether it's heat or vibration or coincidence, all I can tell you is the products we sell with outboard electronics have been dramatically more reliable than those with built in electronics, both on the pro and consumer side.
Space, cost and excess cabling are often considerations for building electronics in that sometimes outweigh long term reliability. |
Gold Member Username: Gavdawg
Albany,
New York
Post Number: 1134
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:09 am: |
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I've yet to hear of a MeyerSound speaker failing because of a faulty amp. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 251
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:22 am: |
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Me neither! That doesn't mean it can't happen. I'm not saying you can't engineer around the problem either, especially at the higher end, but I have seen the correlation, direct or not. |
Gold Member Username: Gavdawg
Albany,
New York
Post Number: 1135
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:58 am: |
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so you admit that you have not seen a higher end self powered speaker fail because of the amp?
I prove my point, at least in relation to the high end.
Being that you have had "so many" amp failures with the powered monitors that you sell, perhaps you should start selling MeyerSound monitors, being that both of us have yet to hear of an issue with those :-P |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12614
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 12:10 pm: |
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"Me neither! That doesn't mean it can't happen."
Forgodssake, fishy! And then you decry Gavin's logic as faulty?! You are a piece of work.
If DS makes one call to his pro audio guy - and this thread ends on your ridiculous note - he can find out how reliable powered monitors are. I get the feeling he's left this thread far behind and I suggest everyone else do the same.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 252
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 12:13 pm: |
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OMG, you should really take a course on logic. That didn't "prove" anything!!! Nor would it matter since those products aren't going into this bar, now are they? No wonder this country is screwed with logic like that. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 253
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 12:15 pm: |
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Jan, you too. If you recall, reliability wasn't the key reason against pro powered monitors, it was just one potential reason. The main ones remain wiring/setup complexity, cost, flexibility. But if you need to fix a powered monitor, especially one mounted on a wall, it's a bigger PITA than servicing a conventional amp or speaker, having had to deal with it. |
Gold Member Username: Stefanom
Vienna,
VA
United States
Post Number: 1168
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 01:48 pm: |
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"If you recall, reliability wasn't the key reason against pro powered monitors"
But it is a reason that you've mentioned without any *evidence* outside of anecdotal references. If you have hard numbers from a reliable source, then we can go somewhere; however, claiming that powered monitors aren't as reliable because you've pulled out so many from various installation jobs isn't really proof of anything.
"The main ones remain wiring/setup complexity"
Yes, you need to run AC power to each speaker. Its not really a big topic of discussion; either it is possible or it isn't. However, I would suspect that setting up and placing four fairly robust professional grade powered speakers wouldn't be much more complex than setting up eight or more bookshelf speakers. It should also be noted that there are passive professional speakers which would also be better suited for this task than would a bunch of PSB bookshelf speakers.
"cost"
I would take two pairs of these...
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-EON15P-1-Eon15P-1-Powered-Speaker/dp/B0002DVLW6
over your eight PSBs. Is it more costly? Barely, and it includes its own amplification. Will it take more abuse? Undoubtedly.
"flexibility"
Sure powered monitors aren't made of rubber, but I'm unsure how much flexibility one needs for a fixed installation in any event. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 255
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 03:03 pm: |
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Stefan, I consider my anecdotal evidence better than pure belief any day.
Those JBLs probably play louder, but won't sound as good an normal bar levels than the PSBs or most other consumer speakers. |
Gold Member Username: Stefanom
Vienna,
VA
United States
Post Number: 1169
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 03:23 pm: |
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"Stefan, I consider my anecdotal evidence better than pure belief any day. "
Perhaps; nonetheless in a forum environment, anecdotes, be it yours, mine, or Jan's, are not considered conclusive evidence.
"Those JBLs probably play louder, but won't sound as good an normal bar levels than the PSBs or most other consumer speakers."
Depends on what you define as "good sound". Most jazz aficionados probably wouldn't want to do critical listening on the JBLs, you're right. But I bet a fan of rock, heavy metal, pop, techno, or rap just might prefer what the JBLs can do over the PSBs.
This of course glosses over the reality that in a bar environment, nuances that the PSBs might render versus the JBLs would largely be washed out by background noise and liquor. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1498
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 04:13 pm: |
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I have never walked into a Night Club and seen anything but pro audio speakers that usually sound horrible, but nobody cares, as its so loud you can't talk or think, and you piss drunk and grinding so Hoe's. LOL Really, a bar environment should have some sort of Pro Equipment. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10184
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:51 pm: |
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yup! If ony for their longevity and the ability to replace them as singles. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10185
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:53 pm: |
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Dave, at some point, somebody is going to crank the hell out of the thing. Pro gear doesn't blow up real easy.
Powered monitors are fused and protected within their own capabilities, not adapting to the power that passive speakers must conform to. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10186
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:55 pm: |
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Plus, I have had beers thrown right at standmount powered monitors. Pick them up and play on...albeit not the same song twice... |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12617
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 06:17 pm: |
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"Stefan, I consider my anecdotal evidence better than pure belief any day."
Your anecdotal evidence forms and sustains your belief system, fishy. You have no "proof" other than your anecdotal evidence. Now, if you wish to allow anecdotal evidence as proof of "what is truth", then you will be forced to back down on our anecdotal evidence that various electronics sound better than others as well as cables and interconnects contributing to the preceived sound quality plus the existence of "PRaT".
All those things which you "believe" exist only within your own anecdotal evidence file and they have already been largely discarded from ours. You can keep yours - no one here wants it other than fishysidekick (what shall we name him? "catfishyboy"?) - but do not put your grubby little paws on my belief system. All of those bits of anecdotal evidence we have collected exist as our proof that these things are true and do occur. Though I'm sure you will twist and turn this into your inimitable illogical logic, you cannot have this both ways.
Yes, what passes for logic in this world is sad. You, fishy, are an audio jihadist with the same logic as a suicide bomber.
I would like to point out DS is long gone. We are arguing over fishy's "anecdotal evidence" regarding the reliability of speakers with built in electronics. If DS doesn't care, why do you? Let this thread end.
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Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10189
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 08:27 pm: |
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'Baitboy' |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 332
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 09:32 pm: |
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"You can keep yours - no one here wants it other than fishysidekick (what shall we name him? "catfishyboy"?) - but do not put your grubby little paws on my belief system".
Jan, your still playing the grandpa Munster role huh?
What is wrong with questioning your belief system? Are you insecure or just getting old and suffering from the onset of dementia?
Oh and they told me I was over the top when I referred to you as Stalin, but the
Jihadist reference made me laugh. Oh Jan getting old must really be a drag.
Now Nuck, I would think that you would be busy listening to your French Canadian jewelry instead of displaying your obtuseness. But I can always count on you Nuck, once a fool always a fool. You folks never fail to impress |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Wisconsin
Post Number: 729
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 09:46 pm: |
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How about 'fishy chum'? |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 334
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 09:56 pm: |
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Hey, it's Ed Gein where have you been? |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1500
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 10:07 pm: |
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"Now Nuck, I would think that you would be busy listening to your French Canadian jewelry instead of displaying your obtuseness. But I can always count on you Nuck, once a fool always a fool. You folks never fail to impress"
ID- Classe is built in Canada, but is part of the B&W group in the UK. Classe, as far as build quality, quality control, and presentation, is leaps and bounds better than NAD. Lets just hope nobody says anything bad about Canadians or I will have to become slightly angry. |
Gold Member Username: Gavdawg
Albany,
New York
Post Number: 1136
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 10:29 pm: |
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I would recommend taking a look at the Alesis pro powered monitors. A martini-type bar I used to frequent in Syracuse uses them, and they sound fantastic.
http://www.alesis.com |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 256
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:34 pm: |
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Stefan, i'm not trying to conclusively 'prove' anything. I'm simply saying, IME, built in amps aren't nearly as reliable as separate amps. It's substantial enough that it exceeds luck. I am sure you can find instances where the opposite occurs, but after 15+ years, I can only really report what I've observed, but the difference has been substantial.
As far as I'm concerned, these cheaper JBL, etc, PA speakers sound so awful that they're not even close to a PSB Alpha and while that may not matter, if you really don't need blistering PA levels and dynamic overhead, it's like buying a pickup as a commuter car. A subwoofer is all that it takes to put most any bookshelf well beyond the performance level of a PA speaker. The stack that Rush used sounded like a pair of Technics rack speakers. Maybe. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 257
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:38 pm: |
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Jan, the difference between something that works and something that doesn't because it's broken is a *little* more significant that the difference between the sound of two amps. Kind of like infinitely more. You are free to let the thread die if you like or you can throw out some more insults, whichever. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10192
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:55 pm: |
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yup..Baitboy it is! |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 258
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 12:01 am: |
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Yep, it's so easy to bait the uneducated and illogical. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12620
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 01:12 am: |
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"You are free to let the thread die if you like or you can throw out some more insults, whichever."
"Yep, it's so easy to bait the uneducated and illogical."
Yep!
"Jan, the difference between something that works and something that doesn't because it's broken is a *little* more significant that the difference between the sound of two amps."
The "difference" is no difference when they are both based on empirical, or what you admit is anecdotal in your case, evidence. No, fishy, you cannot have this both ways. You are illogical and you cannot hear. No insult, just fact.
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