More bass please!

 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 1
Registered: May-08
OK. I've just upgraded my MF X-80 to the A3.5. The difference in clarity, detail and separation is stunning, which is exactly what I was going for. HOWEVER - given that this amp has a reputation for being quite bassy - I was a little underwhelmed by the low frequency power at sensible volume (it does kick in when I crank it, but that is a bit too loud for the neighbours tastes).

The A3.5 is wired up to Quad 11Ls, (which are apparently known for being a little bright),using Chord Carnival cables. They are placed on Atacama SE stands (maybe I need to raise the height so that the bass cones are more level with my ears). And I play a lot of my music as 320CBR (EAC ripped) MP3 via a Squeezebox 3.

All of these could contribute to the lack of bottom end, but what do you think is the prime culprit, and what is the best way to improve this? Is it just a case of my amp being much better than my speakers? And if I do need to upgrade them, has any one got any suggestions as to which ones (within financial reason) might give me the sound I'm looking for. But obviously a set-up tweak would be preferable to blowing a load of cash!

And one last thing: I still have the X-80 and wondered if it's worth bi-apming with the A3.5, although I suspect that would defeat half the object of buying the new amp.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,


Michael
P.S. As this questions covers all my hardware i didn't know which forum top post it in, so I thought this was as good as anywhere.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10264
Registered: Dec-04
MW, how does the bass compare from the old amp to the new? Was the X-80 also bass shy?
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 2
Registered: May-08
Hi Nuck,

Yeah - the X-80 needed more oomph, but because it was far less powerful I had it on louder which seemed to get the bass cones firing. I doubt there was any more bass, just more volume, if that makes sense...

The 3.5 is probably (I only listened to a few tracks carefully last night before it got too late for the neighbours) putting out more bass, but it's just not as punchy or full as I expected.
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 3
Registered: May-08
I'm sure the bass quality of the 3.5 is far superior, it just didn't make the earth move for me at 'normal' listening volume.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2945
Registered: Sep-04
MP3 is your enemy. Kill it, chew it up, spew it out and bury it.

Mike, I have a couple of observations:

1. Quad 11Ls are not renowned for deep bass. They're good but not that good! The Atacamas are probably the right height. If you wish to increase some of the mid-bass to give warmth, place the speakers closer to the rear wall if possible and don't toe them in much.

2. MF amps are actually renowned for having a fairly warm presentation so it's odd that you're getting the opposite solution - so what's your source? Oh yes, a Squeezebox running 320kbr MP3. One of the problems of MP3 is that tracks compressed with it seem to lack punch and drive. I believe this is partially due to the pre-echo distortion prevalent in MP3 which ruins transients such as leading edge of notes. The Squeezebox is capable of taking a lossless format (FLAC?). Try a lossless format and see what happens. If it's this, good luck with re-ripping everything.

3. What size is the room. With 11Ls, if the room is large (say 20ft x 16ft), it's possible they're being lost in the room and can't couple to the volume of air in it. If this is the case, the only real solution is to replace the speakers.

4. Furnishing of the room? If it's sparse, this could accentuate midband and treble making the system seem bright or lacking in bass.

Good luck!

Frank.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 934
Registered: Feb-07
Definitely dump the MP3s and convert your collection to FLAC. The difference is HUGE. The only reason I still use MP3 is for my portable player (not FLAC compatible). But for home listening it's FLAC, or better yet, the original CD.

I guess the Squeezebox has it's own built in DAC? I wonder how good it is?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 319
Registered: Jul-07
David, from what I've read not bad, but not outstanding in any way. This is the setup I'm going to try I think. I have the DAC already, and I think I'll get the power supply to go with the SB3. I've read it makes quite a difference. I think the power supply is $259.

Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 940
Registered: Feb-07
I've heard a separate power supply can make a big difference.

Does the SB accept an outboard DAC?
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-08
Thanks for all that, fellas.

Point taken Frank. I had a horrible feeling that MP3 was the major issue. But I was hoping it wasn't. I think I'd rather shell out 6 or £700 on speakers than face re-ripping the best part of 1,000 CDs ! Especially as I've collected a fair few albums on MP3 that aren't actually on my shelves at the moment (if you get what I mean). Tracking them down again would be a nightmare.

I've been kicking myself for ages for not ripping to lossless to start with, that way I could have always compressed copies to MP3 and kept the FLAC files for proper listening. But you live and learn...

And the irony of it is, I only ever use a portable device (iPod) wired into my car - or to take over the music at other people houses (rude, i know, but they generally like it ).

Like Chris says, the Squeezebox has a decent DAC (Burr Brown) in it (which a lot of audiophile reviewers rated for the money), but I am considering getting a separate MF one too.

My living room is pretty small, but odd shaped (not a right angle in the whole apartment) and the only soft furnishings are two leather sofas. Oh, and four cushions with a rug on exposed floorboards. Everything else is glass or wood. The speakers are about 6" from the wall, is it worth moving them back further? And I'll try toeing them in less.

So, we've established that MP3 is largely to blame, but before I commit to weeks of late nights loading discs, downloading artwork, correcting Freedb track listings etc etc, what are my other options (even if they require a bit of investment) for improving the bass response? Plus I cant get EAC on my Mac, and I really like that program (is there any good Mac ripping software around?).

By the way: as it stands I am 'between' CD players at the moment and so I am playing them on my PS3 (I know! I know!) which doesn't put out appreciably more bass than the SB3.

I would love to get the A3.5 player too, but a) it costs money (although i'm sure I'll get one someday in the not too distant) and b) there's a lot to be said about being able to browse and switch between all my digital music without constantly rifling through (and breaking) hundreds of jewel cases. SO, it would be good if I can optimse MP3 quality while I psyche myself up for a re-rip.

Ta muchly,


MW
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 5
Registered: May-08
Hi David,

I've heard the same thing, but I've always been skeptical of the benefits of power supplies. But then again I am not an audiophile - I just love music and want to hear it as good as my average ears will allow, within reason.

And yes, the SB3 will accept an external DAC. I guess this could make a big difference, right?

There's a company in the States that tricks out SB3s with new power supplies and outputs etc etc, which could be tempting, but I guess the money could be better spent elsewhere...

This has all come about because I've only just acquired the wherewithall to buy a really decent amp - previously i just pretended the music sounded good enough. But now it seems I've caught upgraditis, however I still cant afford it to become critical.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 941
Registered: Feb-07
I think a half-decent DAC can make a difference. You necessarily have to spend a ton of money either. I have 2 of these:

http://www.obadimports.com/catalog/item/4377355/5226912.htm
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2948
Registered: Sep-04
Try looking around for an older 2nd hand Chord DAC64. They were £1800 new in their day and now can be had for around £700. The DAC64 is one of the best propriatary DACs available on the market and sound fabulous. I've not done tests with the Squeezebox, but I have tested with the Roku Soundbridge which is close to the SB in quality normally. The only downside to the Chpord is it inverts phase so you should strictly speaking invert your speaker cable connections for best results, but even when out of absolute phase, the thing rocks. Just another option...

But get rid of those MP3s or at least test with one or two albums ripped 'properly'.
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 6
Registered: May-08
A decent DAC could be the way forward.

Either way, I just downloaded xACT (I'm a recent Mac convert and apparently it's the best for creating FLAC files on this OS) and fully intend to test it out tonight.

Then I guess I just take each day one CD at a time, and each CD one track at a time. For a looooong time...

Cheers,


M
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 944
Registered: Feb-07
How many CDs do you have Michael?
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2725
Registered: May-05
Michael,

The truth is no matter what you do, mp3 will never sound as good as the original. Changing gear, treating the room, and so can make things better but it'll never fix a broken signal (which is what mp3 really is IMO). Garbage in = garbage out. No other way around it.

Is it time consuming and inconventient to re-rip all your music? Absolutely. But it also sucks to spend this much money and energy on putting together a system that'll never reach its potential.

With all that in mind, I can't say for certain that going back to uncompressed music will fully cure your bass problem. Everyone has a different idea as to what good bass truly is. Also keep in mind that quite often when bass is cleaned and tightened up, it sounds like its been cut off. Once you're accostumed to bass boom and flab, tighter bass can sound thin and rolled off. Case in point was when I added a spped controller to my turntable. Bass is so much quicker and tighter, that at first I thought it got cut off. But really listening to the music for a few days made me realize how bad it was before the change. I disconnected the speed controller after a couple of days, and it became very appearent how uncontrolled it really was before.

As to seperate power supplies, they make a huge difference IME. I can't say if the DAC mentioned above will show it or not, because I haven't personally heard it. But in every piece of gear that I've heard that's had an optional power supply, the difference was very significant.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 321
Registered: Jul-07
I have a separate power supply to my CI Audio DAC, and the difference was pretty obvious, with the biggest difference actually being in the bass department.

Dusty Vawter (owner of CIAudio) built the power supply for the SB based on a Customers request on the CIAudio forum. He trialed it with a few Customers to great reviews. He's selling it officially now. I would expect you'd notice quite a difference.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2728
Registered: May-05
A difference when using uncompressed or mp3? As good as any component may be, nothing can fix a broken signal. Garbage in = garbage out.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10272
Registered: Dec-04
Damn, it's trash day.
Help me lift fat Ashman.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 323
Registered: Jul-07
Stu, I wasn't referring to mp3's at all. Just my experience using a cd transport. Obviously a DAC won't correct a compromised signal.
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 7
Registered: May-08
OK. I have decided on the way forward.

Stage 1: re-rip 1,000 CDs to FLAC using MAX (xACT is more time consuming and, from what I can gather, as they both use cdparanoia I should get the same results) I did a test with 'In Rainbows' by Radiohead (and a couple more rough and ready recordings) last night because it's an exceptionally well produced CD, and while I didn't seem to get any more bass - to my ears at least - I did get even more detail and separation. You're right about garbage in/garbage out and I've never really felt comfortable listening to a lossy recording. I've wanted to do it for ages, but it's a pretty daunting task and I get impatient, so I needed a shove. It will take me forever, but at least I shouldn't have to go through the rigmarole again.

Stage 2: new power supply.

Stage 3: decent DAC.

Stage 4: new speakers.

Stage 5: something else expensive, no doubt!


Thanks very much for all your advice.


M
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 950
Registered: Feb-07
It's a slippery slope, isn't it?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10277
Registered: Dec-04
MW, it is indeed a task of proportion.
Dude, make a backup hard drive.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 305
Registered: Apr-08
Michael, a few points -

If your main problem is the bass, that will take new speakers. 5" midbass drivers can't do it very well and Kevlar is not, IME, a good bass transducer material and room acoustics/setup will be the biggest factor in getting the most from the speakers you have.

MP3s at 320Mps will be slightly degraded, but that isn't going to be the main problem. Every speaker on the planet does far more damage to the sound than going from PCM to 320Mbs MP3. So, you can also argue that "pristine in still = garbage out". Reripping is a good idea regardless. All my stuff is Apple Lossless. It's just that i wouldn't call that the main problem.

If you do need small speakers with killer bass, the best I've heard at that recently for reasonable bucks is the Era D5. I don't know how they do that. It does get flustered at high volume, but it's tuned for deep bass from a small driver/small cabinet.

The MF3.5 is 'overkill' for the speakers you have, so you can upgrade to about anything you want. Or, if it has pre-out/main-ins, you could do a nice sub. I'm a big fan of sub/sat systems and prefer them over most any tower speakers when done well.

A DAC can't hurt, but the speakers are still going to define your bass capability.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12684
Registered: May-04
.



No, they are not!
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 320
Registered: Apr-08
Not what?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12686
Registered: May-04
.

" ... the speakers are still going to define your bass capability."


No, the speaker will not define your bass "capability" (whatever that word means to you) for at least four reasons I can think of immediately. Got that, fishy? Do I need to explain it in even simpler terms? You are wrong again.

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10280
Registered: Dec-04
The D5's reviewed pretty well.
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 8
Registered: May-08
Didn't mean to cause a ruck. But i guess most statements on here will provoke a reaction .

Anyway, just so you know, the process has accelerated somewhat, so I'm [very] slowly re-ripping and getting [very] close to wading in with a pair of Quad 22Ls.

Should do the job!


MW
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10300
Registered: Dec-04
MW, the 22L's are an outstanding pair of speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2982
Registered: Sep-04
Nuck,

The 22Ls are not very good (being nice here)...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10317
Registered: Dec-04
Well, I liked them anyhow.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 360
Registered: Jul-07
Myself, I liked the 21L's better. But not enough to buy them.
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 9
Registered: May-08
Frank, Chris: what speakers would you recommend? Preferably ones I could pick up used or discounted for around the $1000 mark (which is what I can get some discounted new 22L2s for).


Thanks,


MW
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2994
Registered: Sep-04
Since you have power, consider Totem's Arro or Rainmaker. Stu makes strong claims for the Audio Physic YaraII at $1250. Also consider Dynaudio Audience 52s.

None of these have the awfully pretty gloss finish of the Quads.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10335
Registered: Dec-04
I give a nod to Stu and Frank.
I called my dealer and he is bringing in a pair of Yara's to try out.

The Dyn 52's are a solid standby, and can be recommended easily in print.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10336
Registered: Dec-04
Listener preferences vary, but the PSB B25 is a large standmount with prodigeous bass.
 

New member
Username: Uncle_pikey

Post Number: 10
Registered: May-08
Just a quick update...

Since I got turned on to Dynaudio, I had a listen to a set of 52SEs and was blown away, so I went after a pair on Ebay. I lost out on that auction and then convinced myself that they dont come up that often. So, being the impatient get that I am, I immediately turned my attention to the other highly rated Dyns that I could find for sale immediately - the Contour S1.4. With Stand4.

These were obviously waaaay out of budget, but they were sat at a bargain price, so I put in an optimistic bid. Much to my joy/horror, I didnt get outbid on this one.

By the time they were delivered I'd stopped freaking out about blowing £1k on a set of speakers (even if they are double that new) and when I Ocos cabled them up to the A3.5, plugged a linear PSU into the SB3 and selected a FLAC track, I knew I'd done the right thing.

They are absolutely freakin' mindbending. That amp simply sings now. And the bass is proper, even from MP3.

So, now I'm currently in the process re-encoding everything to FLAC and eyeing up a decent DAC... And maybe the A3.5 CD player too...

Thanks for your [expensive] advice.



Michael
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2994
Registered: May-05
If you're going to have everything ripped to FLAC, you may want to skip the CD player and put that money toward a DAC. The DAC should give a very good improvement. The main complaint I've heard about the SB3 is its internal DAC.

The Musical Fidelity x-DAC v8 would probably be a natural choice due to synergy. I don't know much about it, so I'm not endorsing it, but it seems like a good match on paper.

Benchmark and Channel Islands (CI Audio)get great reviews and are favorites of a lot of SB users.
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