Archive through April 29, 2008

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 109
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 11:50 am:

Francis, Jan's right in that, if you love the tone of your speakers, keep them and play with everything else. The thing is that there are always better speakers, but they will always have a different tone as well. If you can get clear in your mind the flavor of the speaker, well, electronics won't really change or fix that. Changing your electronics will make small real differences, but can often generate a big psychological reaction to them. And if that makes you enjoy the sound more, then it's all good. But if you want a *big* upgrade, that's the speakers. The hassle is just finding a set that you like more and that often takes time and lots of listening and even adapting to a new sound. Changing electronics is easy and safe because you'll get essentially the same sound with maybe a few small differences.

Relevant Product Info

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12528
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 02:15 pm:

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That's just wrong and shows how little fishy knows.

"The thing is that there are always better speakers, but they will always have a different tone as well."

What did I tell you in the previous post, fj? You need to know the tonality and timbre of real instruments. That's your goal. Knowing how real things sound in a real space. Not the ever changing "tone" of "different" speakers.

Speakers change "tone" when you move them across the room or to another room. They even change tone if you move in the room. That's what fishy is selling, that you can have a new sound every time you change your speakers. That's flat out crap! If you only want something "different" and not something "better", you go fishy's route for most of your hifi purchases. If you want more than just a pair of speakers (that will always sound like speakers) in your room, you need to find what's real to you, not just what's "different". You need to get your head around the idea of "transparency". Look it up; http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html Transparency means your system doesn't sound like a bunch of boxes making sound. Instead it sounds like what you heard when you listened to live music. That's a big "difference" when you think about what fishy sells.

fj, you need to learn how to distinguish what speakers have correct "timbre" and "tone" and which do not. If you can do that, you can easily hear which speakers are worth owning and which will just get you back to fishy's store for another pair.

I suggest you begin with the midrange since we all have a fairly good idea what the human voice should sound like. You're not striving to get such and such a vocalist's voice "in your room" because the recording wil vary from this disc to the next. You are looking to get a recognizable voice in your room.

Microphones flavor the sound and production values alter the sound. So you need a few "reference" recordings that present a clear tone that you accept as the human voice to use as your starting point. When I sold I always had a few recordings from artists I thought the majority of my clients would know. I kept Elvis, Frank Sinatra, Pavorotti, Patsy Cline, etc. These are voices us Old Dogs know from years and years of hearing the same voice on TV, radio, recordings and in person. The medium changed the "tone" slightly as did age but the "timbre" of Elvis' voice remained distinguishable. So, like a captain charting a course, you work with timbre and tone and get a recognizable voice. Once you have the middle, you start to work outward and find other instruments to hear in the same fashion. You learn a piano and which piano as you get better at this. And you learn how those voices and instruments sound in real space. It's tough and it's not quick. But it's the way to get a music system and not just a hifi.

You need to know the "timbre" and the "tone" of a voice. Look up what those words mean. They are tied together but not the same. Your voice probably has a similar tone to your brother's. It has a different timbre which makes you identifiable as you. Think about those differences. Ask your mother what your voice sounds like.

When you begin to get that value judgement fixed in your head, you can eliminate quite a few "speakers" from those few that get the midrange right. Get someone to stand next to your speakers and listen to how their voice sounds compared to your speakers reproducing a voice. If they sound very dissimilar, you might want to change the position of your speakers to see if you can bring the timbre and tone into line.

Your speakers' high frequency issues might be nothing more than poor placement or too much reflective energy into the room. It's all part of the learning process of how to narrow down choices rather than simpy root around amongst the various pieces of fruit until you decide to buy "different" speakers. If you don't want to do that much work, then you can just hop on fishy's ever changing merry go 'round of speakers that sound "different". You can spend your money over and over on speakers and every few months or years you can go down to the audio store and buy something different. One time you may actually get something that comes close to sounding real - but you'll never know it.

Stick with us, fj, and you'll get it right.

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Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 113
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 02:28 pm:

"Stick with us, join the cult, validate us, don't listen to anyone else, leave your family and possessions, we know what is best for you........."

Francis, here's a link to the measurements of your speakers -

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jbl_l890/

As you can see, it's a bit on the boom/sizzle side, but does measure pretty well in distortion. But that's the flavor of speaker you have. It's good to see this things in black and white as it gives you a good idea what kind of flavor you have and what to look at if you want different or better in the future. If you like that sound, you might find that you can't get any better without spending silly amounts of money. Or you might find a speaker that has what you like, without the elevated, peaky treble. You can certainly stick within the same family - Revel speakers are someone similar to the JBLs in many ways as they come from the same company, but do have a flatter response. I'm going to guess you don't care for the sound of that horn

Chris H

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 257
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 02:49 pm:

Not that easy a speaker to drive. The 8 ohm rating seems misleading, at least to me. And I thought boom & sizzle was distortion ? Obviously I'm not keeping up.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12529
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 04:42 pm:

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Let's consider the options. You're buying a component system to faithfully reproduce music in your home. You can learn to listen and hear what music sounds like played both live (real) and in your home (reproduced). Or, you can learn to look at graphs and charts and still not know a thing about how a speaker or component reproduces music. Virtually, every objective test devised for audio products tests the product without the use of music. Consider what that means to you when you are shown a graph and told this is what you will hear.

If you were buying a camera, would you want to look at the specs of the camera or would you want to take a picture with the camera? Does the horsepower spec of a car tell you how it drives and handles? Does the type of grape on the label tell you how the wine inside the bottle will taste? In very broad terms, yes, in what really matters obviously not. If I ask this, "If you read the "Rules of the Road" handbook and learn to recognize the shape of the 'Yield' sign, will you be able to drive a car on the highway in traffic?", what would your answer be?

You certainly get to decide how you want to go about this but even a simple on-axis frequency response chart tells you little about how that speaker will reproduce music. Consider the "T.H.D." spec mentioned. If you are prone to believe the disortion product of a speaker is as serious as the distortion product of an amplifier (then you should read the expanation of speaker distortion provided above), you might be frightened by the significant amounts of "T.H.D." shown in the test results. Read how the measurements are taken. To achieve a T.H.D. measurement, the speaker is driven at a relatively high constant output level with a series of discrete (50, 51, 52, 53Hz, etc.) sine waves or "tones". These are electronically generated "tones" that are one pure frequency at a time. In other words, when they test at 55Hz, 55Hz is the only frequency present. No harmonics and no overtones, just 55Hz. If the distortion measurement at 90dB output is not "high enough", they increase the output level in order to arrive at an "acceptable figure". They cheat! With few exceptions you do not listen to discrete, single frequency sine waves generated by electronic devices when you listen to music. Nor is the sine wave continuous and at a high level.*

Consider for example, a 40Hz note played on a piano has as much as +12dB more energy at its second harmonic of 80Hz than at the fundamental of 40Hz. Telling you the distortion measurement at 40Hz doesn't provide any useful information about how a piano will sound when reproduced by this speaker.

Music program material varies constantly. It has harmonics, overtones, rhythm, timing and dynamics among other qualities and, for our purposes here, almost always more than one "tone" being produced at the same time. The "test" does not. This doesn't make the test invalid but it makes the test results not representative of how you will use the speaker (or amplifier, or CD player or the particular tweak you are considering).

The point of any music system is to connect you to the music. How that is done is a personal affair that relates to how you have learned to listen to music - not test tones. There is no specification for the main function of a speaker (or amplifier or CD player) which, as we've stated, is to connect you to the music and to hold your interest. (Believe me when I say you will quickly get very bored of single test tones.) If there is such a measurement, I would like fishy to show me where it exists.

BTW, your speakers, according to those charts has a + or - 3dB deviation from flat response. That's really quite acceptable for most budget speakers and yet still tells you nothing about the sound of the speaker. There is nothing on those measurements which can tell you whether the timbre of Elvis' voice will convince you it's Elvis in your room. If there is, I'd like fishy to show me where that exists. Frequency response, like T.H.D., is derived by a series of single tones played in sequence. Additionally, the response shown has been taken in an anechoic chamber - a room without reinforcing or reflective walls, or you might say total absorption of everything that does not come directly from the drivers and enclosure. Sounds right? Not in the real world. It has so little to do with how that speaker can sound in a real room that it makes the test all but useless for anyone other than the designer who can then take more tests to determine what is happening with his design.

Bottom line, pieces of paper tell you nothing about how the speaker or component will do its job - reproducing music in a satisfactory and convincing manner, simply holding your attention. To do that job well, a speaker needs to "not exist" allowing itself to be "transparent" to the music fed to it. Anything anyone else tells you is BS. Run away from them while protecting your wallet!

*"Please note: an SPL level of 90dB measured anechoically is very loud and considered far beyond normal listening levels, particularly for small loudspeakers." http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/test_loudspeakers.htm

Like the Wizard, learn to look behind the curtain when someone is trying to covince you they know something you don't.

And, fishy, that's the proper use of an "*"!
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Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12531
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 05:43 pm:

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fishy, I thought you were going to tell me about fourth order crossovers and why the information matters?

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12532
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 06:06 pm:

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fj - Take one more note on those measurements. The T.H.D. is sufficiently low in your speaker according to that test report. So low, in fact, they increased the output from 90dB to 95dB, 90dB already being quite loud as is noted. To achieve that amount of change in this speaker the voltage increase would be almost four times as high, say from 10 "watts" to 45 "watts". We are not comparing apples to apples in this case.

One thing the test does not/cannot show you is the amount of back EMF (electromotive force) which is generated by the low frequency driver itself and fed back to the amplifier through the speaker cables to complete the amplifier/speaker circuit. This amount of EMF voltage is then put back through the amplifier by way of the solid state amplifier's negative feedback loop. Depending upon the amount of NFB used in the amplifier and the amount of back EMF present at the amplifier's NFB inputs, this "return voltage" from the driver's voice coil can actually cause the amplifier to become unstable and result in an increase in ... wait for it ... T.H.D.

So are you testing the speaker or are you testing the amplifier driving the speaker? In reality you are testing both and a different amplifier might actually result in a different distortion number. The only thing this test verifies is that, assuming the same amplifier is always used for these tests, the amplifier should respond to all speakers identical in nature to your's in a similar fashion. Since your speaker's impedance and electrical phase angle are not identical to other speakers (none are), this will not apply in any case other than a speaker with identical voltage and current requirements - another speaker just like yours. There exists a highly variable condition with this test that is not discussed in the literature. A sort of grading on the curve, if you will, that doesn't make for a true test of only your speaker.

One thing to remember about audio component "tests", they assume to test only one product while in any audio system, you cannot divorce one component (the amplifier) from the other (the speaker) when both are required for either to operate. Just keep that in mind when someone pulls out their spec sheets and tries to convince you the test results mean anything.

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Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12533
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 06:13 pm:

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"Or you might find a speaker that has what you like, without the elevated, peaky treble. You can certainly stick within the same family - Revel speakers are someone similar to the JBLs in many ways as they come from the same company, but do have a flatter response. I'm going to guess you don't care for the sound of that horn."

LOL!!!

Nout

Silver Member

Username: Nout

Post Number: 112
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 08:37 pm:

You have to replace the worst part of the system and that is and always will be the speakers. or the room.

I think I'll agree on the last part: the room.
Room acoustics in my opinion make the most difference.
That is: it will bring the best or worst out of the system you own.

I'm not certain about the other factors, whether the source is more important than the amp or speakers.

I own two cd player, both Marantz players.
One is a KI tweaked CD 6000 and the other a cheap CD 5000.
The differences are very subtle..most of the time insignificant.

But I have connected my iMac to my amp as well and the iMac as source is definitely inferior to both cd players.
To me it proves that source matters, but I am not certain in which degree.

But when I am listening to my iTunes library, with MP3's of really poor sample rate I no longer care about the inferior sound, my ears easily adjust to the sound and make the best of it...MP3's can sound pretty darn good!

I wonder why I am responding to this thread.
It appears "a pleasant sound" or whatever I mean by that is enough for me to enjoy music.
It doesn't have to sound "real" with a direct reference to live music.
And from my experience, getting emotionally moved my music is'nt related in any way to the sound of a system.

The first 'click' I got with some great songs, when the tune gets you and you 'get it', and you want to play that song over and over again, at these moments I never had/have a clue how the song exactly sounds, how it is produced.
There's only melody and rhythm, a blurry emotional manifestation, I breath the music and I don't care if I hear it on a transistor radio or on a fancy pancy hifi-set.
Most favorite music pieces I started to appreciate on poor systems.

Unfortunately the magic fades in time, those songs are still great, but the strong emotional reaction has disappeared.
Still I want to keep playing those tunes and preferably on a "pleasant sounding" system.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12535
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 08:59 pm:

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"And from my experience, getting emotionally moved my music is'nt related in any way to the sound of a system."

Quite the point! You do not want a "system sound". You want the system to "sound" as little as possible and step aside to become as transparent as possible to the source. If you are buying the "sound" of a speaker - or any other component, you have stepped further away from the original sound of the performance. Do you have a greater chance of error with speakers which have a definite "sound"? Yes, but that doesn't mean other components cannot have a sound or that all other components sound alike.

If you only listen to over processed, studio created works, then you have minimal benefit from knowing the "sound" of live music as it has little to do with what you hear. However, every musical performance, well recorded or poorly played - professional musician or native chant, has similarities that can be heard when you are familiar with the "sound" and emotional impact of real musicians performing on "real' instruments in a real space. That is, IMO, undeniable and only takes a bit of effort to understand.

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Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 119
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:58 am:

Nout's attitude is exactly what we try to foster in our customers. Don't sweat the small stuff, the goal is musical enjoyment, not component enjoyment. Having money for music, not money only for gear. Audio nirvana, not audiophilia nervosa. As I said, some people just naturally enjoy music and don't think too much about the gear, others don't seem to enjoy music, but figure it's just because they're so sophisticated and they require only the best before they can enjoy it. Music lovers come in and we play stuff and they just smile and tap their toes. Audiophiles come in and furrow their brow and 'analyze'. Our customers are very happy people that rarely upgrade, never feel the need to spend huge bucks on amps or CD players or cables, while our competitors' customers are always unhappy, always upgrading, always complaining about problems with their systems. Even the finest, most expensive systems are not realistic or transparent so feeling you can get there is futile, so just enjoy the ride.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12538
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 10:02 am:

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fishy, I thought you were going to tell me about fourth order crossovers and why the information matters? You brought this up a week ago. What's your problem?

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 123
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:19 am:

I was waiting for you to explain it to me Grandpa. I ever so enjoy your fireside stories.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12544
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 03:50 pm:

.

So we found another thing little fishy doesn't know squat about!

I kinda thought so.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12545
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 03:59 pm:

.

"Music lovers come in and we play stuff and they just smile and tap their toes."

See, they can hear PRaT. Why can't you, fishy?

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 128
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 04:25 pm:

I hear the exact same thing, we just don't make up stupid, senseless names for it.

You're the one that seems to know about phase. I know what different order crossovers do and why speakers aren't time coincident (completely killing any idea that 'PRaT' in an amplifier is a serious phenomena), I just wanted to see if *you* know, but apparently you don't. I don't know how someone who knows so little can bloviate so much.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 276
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 06:43 pm:

Jan, there is no shame in admitting you put the B in BLOVIATE.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12550
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

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"You're the one that seems to know about phase. I know what different order crossovers do and why speakers aren't time coincident ... "

Whoa, man! Did she let you put your hand under her blouse?

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12551
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 06:48 pm:

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Hey, id, screw you. Why don't you spend your time on fishy's forum?

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 277
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 06:51 pm:

Jan, come on dude lighten up.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12552
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 06:57 pm:

.

OK, how about you go get those other two guys on fishy's forum and tell them he's over here. They seem to like it when he gets in these "regular fights" he apparently engages in on a constant basis. Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit.

As to lightening up? You stop with the BS and I won't tell you to screw yourself.

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Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 278
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 06:57 pm:

Every time you and John have an exchange it seems like one of you is tense and unpleasant. I will let the forum make their decision, though it seems obvious.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 279
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 07:00 pm:

"Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit".

Jan, I wasn't off by much when I called you smug was I?

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12553
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 08:08 pm:

.

No brag, just fact.

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/no_brag_just_fact/

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 130
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 08:52 pm:

okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker?

http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/206G52fig08.jpg

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 280
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 10:13 pm:

Jan just to refresh your memory, the abbreviation ms on the bottom stands for milliseconds. I remember you were having issues with that last week. Now that wasn't BS, just a helping hand.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12554
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:07 pm:

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"okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker?"

How in the "F" should I know? Do you? The question makes no sense, there's no information provided other than a graph. For Godssake, fishy, you don't even know how to ask a proper question. Why should this Old Dog pay a bit of attention to your daumbass questions, lil'fishy? You don't even know enough to know how to ask a proper question. You are an embarrassment of ignorance! I suppose most amplifiers just stop working with this speaker and wait for someone to connect something that makes sense. Why should I care how an amplifier deals with BS?!

Dear, imcomplete id, I never had a probelm with "ms". fishy had a problem with too many of them and not knowing what to do with them or what they do. Now bugger off! You are very annoying waiting for fishy to say something and then chiming in. Particularly when fishy doesn't say anything intelligent hisownself. And you playin' the "which way do we go, George, which way do we go" part of the team. You must be real proud! Get a life!

Ya'know what, guys? You two are a waste of my time. I have better things to do, like go clean the eye boogers off my dogs' muzzles Unless you can come up with something that's worth my time, you are on "ignore". And, fishy, that doesn't mean I won't be watching for more of your dumbass comments. Have fun playing with yourselves, guys!

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Michael Wodek

Gold Member

Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx
USA

Post Number: 1264
Registered: May-06

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:17 pm:

Neil - "Try and convey this with only generic reference to brand and model names."

Excellent advice, I will try to keep that in mind for this thread.

Chris H - "I have found that listening for the music first, and then if something strikes me as wrong, engage my logical side to try to determine what, works best as a process. If I try listening with my left brain, it is easy to miss the music."

I actually did the opposite with my kit. I listen analytically whenever I change out something or tweak something. When I feel it is as spot on as I can get it I switch gears and then forget about everything and just listen to the music. I figure it isn't going to get any better without me changing something else, so as long as I am not messing with anything I forget about everything but the music.

Stu P - In my situation, I also upgraded in order of the weakest link.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/243686.html

I invited my neighbor, a musician, to come by yesterday to listen to various LPs on my "gullible" system. He stayed for a few hours. His foot never stopped tapping or swinging while the music was on. He actually hated to leave. He will be back!

My "gullible" system does a very decent job of not getting in the way of the music.

As I posted earlier, I have spent a lot of time tweaking with isolation and dampening, room treatments, various wires and ICs, once I had the gear I wanted in my kit. Whether it is my vintage tuner, or the displacing expensive speaker wire and IC for my inexpensive hand made stuff, I am willing to understand my mistakes and step back if that makes things better. With the help of the forum members here I have learned a lot to enable me to do this.

JV - even though id seems stuck to JA like a suckling piglet I can understand him not spending more time on JA's forum since he keeps posting questions which JA ignores.

BTW id, do you even know why I or anyone would use .999 pure silver wire?

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 281
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:46 pm:

"id, do you even know why I or anyone would use .999 pure silver wire"?

Yes, you would use .999 pure silver wire wire because you are Michael Wodek.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 282
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:53 pm:

"Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit".

"okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker"?

"How in the "F" should I know"?

Fantastic, I love that Jan. Keep it up Jan, bit by bit. Priceless.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12556
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:21 am:

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my boy, you aren't even as smart as fishy so don't go there. What he doesn't get is whether an amplifier has PRaT doesn't determine whether it can drive stupid loads. Some really good amplifiers with no more than a few watts can have pacing and timing that gets you exicted, gets you moving to the music and pulls your @ss in. Some amplifiers that drive stupid loads can't do anything else.

What fishy doesn't get is you can't ask me how "an amplifier" deals with a speaker. You have to tell me what specific amplifier and what specific speaker. And if it's a speaker that looks like that, I don't give a rat'sass what it does.

The real thing fishy and you don't get is I don't care to play your stupid games. So you go on acting like you know thisshit. Anybody with half the knowledge my dog has about this stuff knows you are both full of BS and fakin' it all the way.

Get a life!

.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 283
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:33 am:

Jan, I sense some hostility.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12557
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:20 am:

.

Funny, you should sense you're being ignored.

M.R.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1928
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:42 am:

unbridled id

What does that stand for - an idiot on the loose?

Will you please try not to turn this audio forum into a kiddies playground id? I'm sure your momma could find other things to keep you occupied. Go ask her if you can play with razor blades or something.

francis joseph

Bronze Member

Username: Afj

Gaborone
Botswana

Post Number: 62
Registered: Jan-08

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 03:25 am:

ja, thanks for the page but i dont have the experience or knowledge to relate to them. to me they are absolute figures. but maybe i'll learn through them. appreciate it though

jv, my system is part of my living room. so cant really move them around too much apart from changing the distance between them +/- 1mt, or perhaps some toe in.

i just bought the nad c272 and though i've read that its a very neutral amp i felt that it was a little warm. also the bass wasnt as tight as i thought it would be. but in saying that its very musical. and the realism is better than anything i've owned. i wouldnt say its perfect but im enjoying listening to it

M.R.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1929
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 03:39 am:

fj,

The C272 is a real value for money amp imo. Yep, not perfect, but what is? I found interconnects and speaker cable gave the bass much more control. If you can borrow a few different types it may be worth your trouble investigating.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 284
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:45 am:

"Will you please try not to turn this audio forum into a kiddie�s playground id"?

Exposing Jan is in my opinion doing this forum a favor. Open your eyes M.R; you seem like a sensible person.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 285
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:53 am:

unbridled id

What does that stand for - an idiot on the loose?
"I'm sure your momma could find other things to keep you occupied. Go ask her if you can play with razor blades or something".

Your not wishing harm upon me are you MR, that is beyond the pale?

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12559
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 09:50 am:

.

fj - You mentioned the highs not being all to you liking. Do you have any "hard" surfaces between you and the speakers? Possibly an uncarpeted floor or a coffee table in front of your chair?

francis joseph

Bronze Member

Username: Afj

Gaborone
Botswana

Post Number: 63
Registered: Jan-08

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:36 am:

well, my living area is open plan so its about 600 sq ft with a lounge, kitchen and dining. the speakers are on either side of the tv with a 3+2+1 sofa in front of it. the floor is ceremic tiled. there is a small carpet (5'x7') in front of the tv. i dont really have a chair which i use as a sweet spot to sit and listen. im pretty much all over the place. the highs only bother my when i play the music is loud. normally when im listening to something heavier - hard rock etc. doesnt bother me at all when im playing slower music or the acoustic versions (unplugged)

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 131
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:46 am:

Jan, it's an impulse response graph, not an impedance curve. It's pretty easy to read and has plenty of information.