Archive through April 24, 2008

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1918
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:02 am:

250 posts. Enough for a cow paddock and plenty to contain the huge amount of BS. Shame some can't tell what it looks like.

Relevant Product Info

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 53
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:05 am:

Mike, no offense, but pretty much your entire system just screams "gullible", so if taking shots at me is your way of preserving your self-made world, feel free.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 251
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:21 am:

"Enough for a cow paddock and plenty to contain the huge amount of BS. Shame some can't tell what it looks like".

Very clever MR, ever since you acquired that A-5 you have a swagger about you, keep it up!

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1920
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:30 am:

U/id

Many thanks. My wife commented on the swagger also.

She likes it!

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 252
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:46 am:

"All that because I asked if you were from the North side of town"?

Acutally yes, I was not defending the northside I was offended by your presuming I resided there (if that is indeed what you did). I have noticed a similarity on this forum and the Polk forum. There seem to be "elder statesmen/audio elitist" types on both, polk has Russman (also from... you guessed it Texas) and his acolytes, cross them and its mudslinging and name calling until they drown out any opposition. I understand taking three smug p*icks from a sample as large as that of the state of Texas is in no way representive of anything in particular. Now John doesn't need me to speak on his behalf he can handle himself (and quite honestly I don't know much about phase angles). But
Mikey, if you read the thread from the beginning the mass opposition towards anything John said began in earnest after his magesty Jan Vinge spoke disapprovingly towards what John was stating. I think having someone around who goes against the grain so to speak is healthy but you folks (this is why I call you lemmings) don't seem to want that. Well, who cares what the heard wants let them stay in the cow paddocks? I attempted to smooth things over or inject some (often poor) humor into the situation to "lighten" the mood a bit and hopefully keep the conversation on point. But a smug p*ick is a smug p*ick and it doesn't matter where he is from. Why don't the rest of you show some balls?

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 253
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 02:05 am:

"Many thanks. My wife commented on the swagger also".

Just remember MR, you left NAD, NAD didnt' leave you. You are welcome to come back anytime you feel the need. (I know the A-5 is bonzer). First cow paddocks and then bonzer, I am getting hip first to English lingo now Aussie lingo, been a great day. 1667 posts to go MR and then maybe I can hang with you.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1921
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 02:10 am:

Why don't the rest of you show some balls?

0

(only one - testicular cancer)

Happy now id? Perhaps you can hang with me. There's plenty of room!

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 241
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 08:19 am:

"But a smug p*ick is a smug p*ick and it doesn't matter where he is from. Why don't the rest of you show some balls?"

Who needs to take the deep breath ? Goodness, you're getting yourself all worked up into a lather. If you paid attention you'd know that people here disaggree all the time. Almost always respectfully. Get over yourself. Your presumptions are just that.

Michael Wodek

Gold Member

Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx
USA

Post Number: 1257
Registered: May-06

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 09:54 am:

id - "I attempted to smooth things over or inject some (often poor) humor into the situation to "lighten" the mood a bit and hopefully keep the conversation on point."

But I post - "id - tell me you are from the north side of Chicago...LOL " and you crap all over yourself.

id - "There seem to be "elder statesmen/audio elitist" types on both, polk has Russman (also from... you guessed it Texas) and his acolytes, cross them and its mudslinging and name calling until they drown out any opposition."

My elucidating JA's behavior as huckster or shyster? That's your idea of name calling? Good grief, your sensitivity ls...well is interesting, let's leave it at that.

I pointed out that there has been little that JA offered that would be of value to this thread with respect to facts. For that you feel the need to get frenzied?

JA, I have heard NAD M3 and other NAD gear. It does not bring life to the music for me. The presentations that I heard were uninspired. Yes it presented accuracy, imaging, and was not "bright" by your definition.

I have listened to live music and grew up listening to music which both have an influence in what I look for from my system.

Fortunately I was gullible enough to build a system that does all the things I look for in its presentation, which is to find the music enjoyable and exciting. I do not cull from your posts that those qualities are something you embrace or understand.

Cheers.

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 54
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:05 am:

As a drummer, i think i know a bit about 'pace, rhythm and timing'. It's a musical event, not a system event. PRaT is something for people that don't know anything about real pace rhythm and timing. Systems that often are described as having 'PRaT' on their own screw up that *actual* PRaT in the music. Especially if you're a drummer. My system doesn't have "PRaT" in and of itself, it simply allows it to pass through unadulterated.

I have a saying that music lovers are people that use a stereo system to listen to music and audiophiles are people that use music to listen to a stereo system. I should include that people that believe in PRaT are people that can't feel the rhythm of music and therefore have to have it manufactured by their stereo. Mike's system looks like it was based exclusively on random reviews and passing fads. I guess if you call a Gallo's compressed bass, thin/harsh midrange and disconnected treble "PRaT" then, well, I avoid that in my system.

Here's a fun quote from Soundstage article:

"Now, the next word up for sale on "Is the Review Right?" is Rhythm. That's one of the big bass words, right next to Pace and Timing. Just what do any of these words mean in the context of audio, anyway? A trip to 1990's subjective review bible, The Audio Glossary from J. Gordon Holt, yields no help. As far as I can tell, the current fad in using those terms goes back to two columns from reviewer Martin Colloms. The December 1991 Stereophile goes into "Bass," while November 1992 yields "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing." I remember reading them when first published and being unenlightened. A recent return to the material didn't help much.

Regardless, I have to take exception to these terms. First off, audio components don't have pace, rhythm, or timing -- music does. One of the fundamental flaws of most audio reviewing that I read is the poor grasp between cause and effect for what people hear and report on. If I tell you a cable has bad rhythm, this gives you almost no useful information; I'm just throwing around a poorly defined term. Instead, I should be describing what it is that isn't coming through that makes the rhythm seem bad. If I tell you a cable rolls off the bottom end, you can bet that it's got bad "pace," too, but now I've given you an idea why. What's really a shame is that in these same reviews that confuse the reader by describing pace, rhythm, and timing, the real problems are mentioned -- things like speaker cabinet vibration coloration, often a cause of poor "timing." Why does a reviewer have to pick a trio of poorly defined words to describe that? Just say the cabinet rattles enough to smear the bass around already, don't pick a mysterious word that only true audiophiles are supposed to understand.

The whole style of subjective reviewing where sound quality is described with little concern for why doesn't do anything to help people who have issues with their system understand what it is they should be improving. It's no wonder people often read reviews and end up more confused than when they started!"

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12486
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:07 am:

.

"JA - Do you ever sell anything more expensive than NAD? Or do you always downsell to the cheapest product? You know, to do your client a favor. "Hellsbells, it's good enough for me, why should you want anything more? I can't hear PRaT, why should you want it?"

"Mike, no offense, but pretty much your entire system just screams "gullible"

Question answered. I've worked with the likes of you. A quick sale based on, "You can't hear a difference can you?"

I haven't called you a punk for awhile, punk. But taking a shot at someone by insulting their system is the kind of cheapass crap I expect to find on the playground. You got nothing, you know nothing and you're a chump, PUNK!

IF you're going to stay here, what people own is off limits. But I don't see you staying much longer. Punks don't fair well on this forum. We like people who can disagree and still respect the others.

Gonna call me an old guy again, punk?

.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a601027.html

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 55
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:28 am:

Jan, you don't know me at all. I do know you though, you're the 'big poster' that tries to be the big fish in the little sea. You attack anyone or anything that contradicts you because it hurts your position as a know-it-all. You do anything and everything possible to drive your 'enemies' off the forum by putting words in their mouths, calling names, running to moderators and generally whining a lot. You *do* sound old and out of touch though.

Zorro

Bronze Member

Username: Zorro

Post Number: 68
Registered: Jul-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:46 am:

John Ash
Unbrid
Hey stop this insanity! come on guys all you need is some Bisacodyl. It will help you a bunch. It worked fine for a guy I knew at school.
You will be thankful! :-)

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 56
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:47 am:

BTW, I don't care if people devote their entire life building alters to 'PRaT', even if they're dropping in Aural Excites and an array of DBX processors to do it (the old method), but acting like other systems that don't have the 'PRaT' colorations (or imaginations) are some how 'deficient' or 'non-musical' is just silly.

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 57
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:48 am:

"A guy i knew" Uh huh

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 242
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:51 am:

Look in the mirror JA. An attacking know-it-all pretty much sums up your last few posts. You talk in absolutes like you've got everything figured out, and everyone else is wrong. PRaT doesn't exist because you say it doesn't. Who's contradictory ? NAD is as good as anyone can hear, because it's as good as YOU can hear. And "good" to you is what should be "good" to everyone right ? Just tell us the way it is JA and we'll be your captive audience. Tell us more of your truisms. What, MW's kit sucks ? Wow, didn't see that coming, but I'm sure he's grateful to know. Shame none of us were so honest with him about it. Good for you JA, good for you.

And you don't need any help getting driven from the forum. You're doing quite a nice job of that on your own.

Zorro

Bronze Member

Username: Zorro

Post Number: 69
Registered: Jul-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 12:00 pm:

"A guy i knew" Uh huh

oh my it was you !

Carry on Johnny

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 58
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 12:04 pm:

Forums aren't about 'captive audiences'. They're about the exchange of information and opinion. Not driving out anyone with whom you disagree. When you're willing to lay a large chunk of change on a DBT, you let me know and you can prove me wrong and take my money. Prove that a Bryston or whatever has "PRaT" and the NAD M3 doesn't with no audiophile goggles on.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12487
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 12:55 pm:

.

""A guy i knew" Uh huh

oh my it was you !
Carry on Johnny"

ROTFL

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 243
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 12:58 pm:

Nice switch John. From attack to passive aggressive when you're called on it. Pretty smooth.

If you want to exchange ideas and opinions then great. Just stop the rest of the nonsense. Allow that maybe....just maybe....your word isn't the last word on audio.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12488
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:02 pm:

.

JA - I'm not trying to drive you off, you'll do that by your own self. Stupid doesn't last on this forum, ask any of us old guys. There's a long list of punks that have come and gone from this forum.

Stupid is what you are however. So stupid you can't recognize it when someone is trying to do you a favor and educate you so you stop making dumb mistakes like "hundreds of phase shift". You see that as a challenge. Yep, I've worked with you before.

You're perfectly welcome to stay as long as you feel comfortable being corrected every time you post something ignorant like, "Never blame the electronics for the sound of a speaker."

Hey, look, you've got one fan already. Id is doing a great job defending you.

Stay as long as you wish. You might learn something. Unlikely but you might.

.

Nick K

Gold Member

Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 1402
Registered: Jun-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:09 pm:

When I listen to gear, I listen to hear weather its musical to me, sounds right, sounds like music should. If I like the presentation of a full setup, then I like that system. Personally thats all it takes for me, I don't listen for any specific 'type' of sound like PrAT, or Warmth, or whatever other terms there are. I listen to the music, and if the system happens to play that music to a level I can enjoy it. Then hey, I am a happy camper. Bryston sounds amazing to my ears, the NAD M3 does sound good to my ears as well. Always has. And also, Mike Wodek's system sounds great as well. A Solid state AMP/ Tube pre amp combo is still to this day, the most musical combo I have ever heard. I may be young, but I have heard a Sh!t load of different gear and setups. Mike Wodek's sytem may be "Gullible" to you, but to me it would bring lots of Musical enjoyment. This again, is just my opinion.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 254
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:11 pm:

But I post - "id - tell me you are from the north side of Chicago...LOL " and you crap all over yourself.

Mike, your Frasier Crane muse isn't serving you well. Calling a spade a spade isn't being frenzied its being forthright. But, here is why I "crapped all over myself"?. I see a commonality between folks like you and those on the Northside, I don't care for it and don't want to be lumped in with it. What is the matter Mike, you have a sharp set of elbows on yourself, man up. I understand as we age (your 50 now) and as our hairlines receed and waistlines expand we attempt to recapture our youth but what is with the LOL's and ROFLMA's? Perhaps your expressing your soidarity with your brokeback mountain co-star Jan? Express yourself, I value your thoughts.

Nick K

Gold Member

Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 1403
Registered: Jun-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:15 pm:

Unbridled ID- Im not trying to butt in here, and I am on nobodies side on this. But I remember a few times now, a while back Jan and Mike Wodek both providing you with great help on certain questions. As they have to all of us at one time or another. We are here for ya man.lol Cheers.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 255
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:24 pm:

"Hey, look, you've got one fan already. Id is doing a great job defending you".

But Jan I don't know anything about phase angles! And I own some NAD gear!
Once again I ask for your forgiveness your excellency.

"IF you're going to stay here, what people own is off limits". Who are you to say this when you critize whole companies? Jan your not playing fair in the ecoustics sandbox, shame on you.

I have a question for you Jan. I ask simply for curiosities sake. What is wrong with DBT, why is it's validity in your opinion an issue? You castigated (look Chris I found my thesaurus) John for a foucs (though not exclusive) on measurements.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 256
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:32 pm:

Why don't the rest of you show some balls?

0

(only one - testicular cancer)

Happy now id? Perhaps you can hang with me. There's plenty of room!

Figure of speech I had no way of knowing your situation. I am intimately aware of what cancer can do to someone though. I would love to hang with you and I like this board (even Mike and Jan you two SOB's). Just kidding, Mike I am in full control of my sphincter muscle, just though you should know.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 257
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 01:39 pm:

Unbridled ID- Im not trying to butt in here, and I am on nobodies side on this.

Nick, you are never butting in and I wish there were no such thing as sides here but you know that the way this forum works. It isn't the most efficient way to move a debate forward (unless several pile on one and drive them and their opinions off the board).

But I remember a few times now, a while back Jan and Mike Wodek both providing you with great help on certain questions.

I do remember Jans input and I do not remember Mikes but I don't doubt he gave it. I appreciate anything constructive and I can take constructive criticism. However there is an air of conceit among some here, it not life altering but it's there.

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 59
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 02:48 pm:

Chris, I don't think you understand the term "passive aggressive"

Jan, stupid seems to have kept you around for 12k posts. What's the phase shift on a 4th order crossover? How does a speaker have "PRaT", except in one's imagination, if the impulse response has 3 peaks instead of one? How does a phase coherent speaker portray "PRaT" if the music itself has time/phase errors throughout? And does it even matter? How can two amps measure virtually the same and yet one has "PRaT" and the other doesn't? And can you *prove* that you can even hear the difference?

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 244
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 03:19 pm:

JA, what is your issue with the otherwise commonly accepted term PRaT ? I've never seen someone so vehement about a term before.

Where you attacked as a child by a PRatBull Terrior ?

Did your sister have an evil PRaTtyCathy doll ?

Did you get thrown out of a PRaTernity in college ?

Or maybe the victim of a PRaTernity suit ?

Good god, what was it man !

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 258
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 03:28 pm:

Gonna call me an old guy again, punk?

How old are you Jan, you don't have wooden teeth do you?

My elucidating JA's behavior as huckster or shyster? That's your idea of name calling?

No, its my idea of your being a smug p*ick. Your elucidation is based upon what exactly, your opinion? The number of pieces you have in your residence,
.999% silver wire. Your opinion is just that and has not offered any clarification. You do know what elucidate means don't you? If you don't just ask Chris he will fill you in.

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 259
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 03:32 pm:

JA, what is your issue with the otherwise commonly accepted term PRaT ?

Chris, you have to give John this much, he has explained this one several times has he not?

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 245
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 03:54 pm:

"Chris, you have to give John this much, he has explained this one several times has he not?"

Oh I know he doesn't like the term. No question about that. Abundantly clear. But the thing is, other people ARE ok with it. Lots of people even. And he doesn't appear to be ok with that either. That's where the real problem is.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12489
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 03:54 pm:

.

id - Not one damnthing you've posted has made any sense. Get back on the meds.

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1923
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 06:28 pm:

"How does a speaker have "PRaT", except in one's imagination

I don't think anyone here believes a speaker has PRaT JA, though I won't speak for them. I believe certain speakers will enable PRaT. It's like saying a speaker sounds good. A speaker doesn't make any sound unless the system allows it to.

PRaT begins with the source, is passed by amplification and finally exposed by the speaker - if indeed these components have the quality to allow PRaT to be passed to the listener.

Hope you enjoyed the lesson - as flawed as it may be. I'm no expert, but as sure as shite, it's glaringly obvious you aren't either.

In fact JA, you may be a prat - and you sure need a kick in the prat.

In fact, a system with PRaT, is a kick a*se sytem. Google the term JA.

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 60
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

Chris, as i said, PRaT is either a) an imaginary, made up, senseless marketing tool used by a lot of over priced amplifier/speaker companies and/or b) a coloration apart from neutrality and transparency that suckers in people who aren't terribly adept listeners. Now, you disagree all you want, but if you do, I'm just saying, put some money down! Let's see if you're half as astute as you think you are. You know really good marketing when you can convince the customer to repeat marketing jargon as though it is something real and substantive. PRaT is about as close to cult behavior as you can get. Well, a cult within a cult, I suppose.

I look at it this way. Either

1. The differences between any good amplifiers are so small that they can't be heard in a DBT, in which case, this argument is all about nothing.

2. The differences between any good amplifiers are so small that they will be perceived subjectively, personally and in completely different ways depending on the person and system, in which case, you can't force the "I hear it this way, so it's fact" statement on anyone except yourself

or 3. The differences are obvious, repeatable and similar, and therefore, it should be easy to take my money in a DBT

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12490
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 06:49 pm:

.

"Jan, stupid seems to have kept you around for 12k posts. What's the phase shift on a 4th order crossover? How does a speaker have "PRaT", except in one's imagination, if the impulse response has 3 peaks instead of one? How does a phase coherent speaker portray "PRaT" if the music itself has time/phase errors throughout? And does it even matter? How can two amps measure virtually the same and yet one has "PRaT" and the other doesn't? And can you *prove* that you can even hear the difference?"

JA - "Stupid" has bothered me for 12k posts. The names change - right now it's JA - but "stupid" always remains. There is quite often an over abundance of stupid when people show up here. They think they are the young punk who just showed up in town and they're going to blow everybody away with some BS like "hundreds of phase shift". Something slick that don't mean sh*t. If you're smart, say like Frank, you don't deal in BS and we get along well with only ocassional opinion differences. And we respect the other for what they do know and like to learn from them. But when that young punk full of BS thinks they need to challenge one of the old gunslingers ...

Look around. Figure out who's still here.

Along that vein, you must have missed the section of the forum rules that says Old Dog does not have to play little fish's games whenever lil' fishy wants some attention. You're still lil' fishy, JA, and all you have are words, just words and not a clue as to how they fit together.

I will, however, work with the idea of PRaT. In an audio system PRaT is a matter of perception just as most things are. It is a quality that is as much a function of knowledge, familiarity and perception as are timbre, tonality, texture, staging, etc. If you are familiar with the sound of live music - you know like the clients who tell you they know what they are and are not hearing, you will probably hear PRaT and many of those other musical qualities from the very first time you hear a decent system; possibly you won't even know PRaT has been assigned a name because you simply recognize it as how music is structured. Without some amount of PRaT music goes to pieces - literally. That's part of what makes one component better than another - not a spec sheet. If you want a forum that believes spec sheets are the thing, the only thing and the thing that matters, this ain't it. You can leave now.

PRaT, tonality and timber and those other "perceptive" things not shown on a spec sheet aren't difficult concepts, JA, unless the only thing you know about audio and music is a spec sheet. You can't hear PRaT by looking at a spec sheet, for the most part, it just ain't there. Some of it's in the power supply but it's not a spec that says, "This is where PRaT comes from." I assume that's why you don't have a clue about it.

If you don't hear PRaT coming through a system, I would first suggest you put down your pieces of paper and go listen to some live music. We've been through this many times on this forum before you butted in so I'm not going to spend lots of time explaining this to you. If you don't hear PRaT at all, that's your perception - or rather lack of perception. If I perceive PRaT and expect to be shown a system that tracks what I hear in live music, I don't want some punkassed salesperson telling me it doesn't exist and I don't need it. I don't need to be shown measurements if I want a system that sounds as close as possible to live music. Understand that, JA? I kinda doubt it, you're pretty tied to those measurements as proof of what you can hear.

If you don't hear it, it's not my responsibility to educate you. If I expect a system to replicate live music and I hear PRaT in live music, then I expect someone to show me a system with PRaT and not give me an argument. If you lack the perceptive capability to follow the pacing, rhythm and timing of a piece of music, go get someone who knows what music should sound like and can hear when a system is good - and when it's not - to tell you what components manage to sound real when they are combined. Then, when someone comes in with the system requirement of PRaT, timbre and staging among other things, you can at least point to what you've been told has something they can listen through. Then turn on the music and shut up.

.

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 61
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 06:52 pm:

MR, thanks for the lesson in advanced audio marketing. "Sure, all electronic components are nearly perfect in time and phase, but ours have 'PRaT' and theirs doesn't, that will be $20,000 please"

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 62
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 07:06 pm:

Jan - couldn't answer my questions, except maybe one - that PRaT is simply something that you 'perceive', not hear. So, if you have this extra sensory perception and can hear what doesn't exist, you're better that us slobs that can't hear what doesn't exist. And, as we know, perception is reality and you're in another one. Glad we can agree on something finally, old chap. I can't wait til you tell your audiologist that you need hearing aids with "PRaT"

It kind of reminds me of the days demoing Xd for people and they'd say 'this system doesn't have bass, I can't hear the sub' [change music] 'WHOA!!!' Then someone else would say "It's too bright!" [change music] "WOW, so smooth!" "There's no soundstage!" [change music] "HOLY CRAP, it's a mile wide!!!!". Some systems flat out manufacture an effect, like "PRaT" so that you always hear it. But that effect doesn't exist in all recordings, only some. A really good system will simply reproduce what is on the disc, no more, no less. That's what I do. I'm an audio guy, not PT Barnum or David Copperfield. Some people, though, seem to be happier when ripped off because, in their mind, the magic trick keeps working because they paid so much money and want to keep it going. The more expensive the placebo, the better it works and longer it lasts. And, I guess, who am I to argue with what something thinks they hear? Maybe "perceiving" that your system sounds good is the same thing as sounding good, as long as no one puts it to a test.

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 63
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 07:10 pm:

BTW, guys, I have magic M&Ms that I can sell you that will up the PRaT in any system. Only $100 each, but WOW, what a difference. They look like regular M&Ms, but I have a special heating and cooling process that tunes them into your audio system so as to make the system come alive. We recommend at least 3 per speaker. A true bargain. 30 day money back guarantee. 31 day break in period.

David Mitchell

Silver Member

Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 863
Registered: Feb-07

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 07:12 pm:

Isn't it time we wrapped this thread up and called it done?

Gold Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1924
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 07:25 pm:

No one's ever going to make this dipshite understand. JA - go somewhere where they can hook up a NAD C542 and a Rega Apollo (or Saturn) or a Naim CDP (just as examples) through a decent amp and speakers and switch between the two as you listen. You'll be in for a surprise. If not, then give audio away because your ears are crapped!

Bronze Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 64
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 07:37 pm:

Been there, done that. What small differences there are in good components aren't worth the money when compared to other areas *and* are often not a matter of "it's more expensive, therefore better". Some of the more enjoyable components I've heard were some of the least expensive. Or, perhaps I just gave them special credit for sounding so good. Why don't you sign up for a DBT and prove to the world how fantastic your hearing is compared to mine.

BTW, how exactly does one preserve PRaT when it goes to hell the moment it hits the crossover? No matter how good you *think* the "PRaT" of your source, preamp, amp is, it doesn't exist on the other side of the speaker. Not even close. Not that it matters, all the studies show we have little to no ability to hear it outside of our desire to hear it. As I mentioned to Jan, I guess if you think you are hearing PRaT, you are perceiving it, even if it's not there. So, enjoy away, if your imagination puts a smile on your face, keep imagining. Just don't expect everyone else to spend stupid amounts of money for nothing.