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Thread: Modern NAD sound vs old NAD sound? |
    
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1421
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 05:04 pm: |
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yup. |
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Relevant Product Info
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 267
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 08:40 pm: |
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"And you know who relies on measurements to prove their stuff is better or your stuff is not as good? People who can't hear".
Jan are you saying then that it is more personal preference and/or the engineering prowess of the design team? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12515
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 09:34 pm: |
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I don't understand that question. |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 268
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 09:49 pm: |
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Oh, I got the impression that you feel that measurements are not very important in determining sound quality. Is this a fair assessment of what you have been saying. If so, I just was wondering what you felt were the most important contributors to the sound quality of an amplifier. |
Bronze Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 100
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:28 pm: |
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Nick, do they sound different? Are you absolutely sure? Would you bet your house on it? You did them as an A/B setup with level matching. John Dunlavy could convince you to be blown away by the difference between the *same* cables! Which isn't to say you can't tell them apart, maybe you can. But even if you can, if someone has a different opinion, doesn't it perfectly cancel your opinion, yielding it meaningful only to you? |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1423
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:29 pm: |
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Amplifiers are made up of many electronic parts that change the sound of an amplifier that can not be measured. You can have the most perfect measured amplifier known to man, and people will and can still hate the sound it provides. That is what Jan is saying. There is only ONE way to buy audio equipment, that is to listen to it. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 101
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:30 pm: |
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Nuck, THD is far from antiquated when it comes to speakers. But you're right, modern amps and sources have far too little to hear, which is one of the reasons why the source and amp and cables have so little to do with your final sound. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1424
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:33 pm: |
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"Nick, do they sound different? Are you absolutely sure"
Ah yes, 110 percent positive. My dealer carries Bryston and NAD. They all claim there was a difference. I could also, clearly, without a doubt, hear that the two amps sounded totally different.
"But even if you can, if someone has a different opinion, doesn't it perfectly cancel your opinion, yielding it meaningful only to you"
Maybe, but isn't that the most important thing to having or Selling a system to someone. The fact that THEY enjoy it more, and that one person can in fact hear the difference. If the person buying can hear the difference, then to them, they can. Therefore they should buy, or be sold, the amplifier most needed by their listening habits. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1425
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:37 pm: |
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"source and amp and cables have so little to do with your final sound."
You see I agree with you on one thing. The M3 is a good amp. But I can not agree with this comment. Like I said before, the changing of Amps and AVR's in my system revealed a HUGE change in sound in my system. Even my WIFE could hear it. Even my friends who don't give a rats A S S about audio could hear it. When I upgraded my NAD 521bee cd player to a Rega Apollo, again HUGE benefit in sound. Grain free, clearer highs, and an all around more musical experience. I would say 60 percent is room and speakers 40 is amps,source,pre |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 102
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:42 pm: |
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Well, if you ever want to risk a lot of money, let me know 
As for personal preference, I entirely agree. What I'm mainly saying is that people shouldn't buy expensive amps or CD players to solve problems that exist in their speakers or room or setup. Once they fix those, sure, go crazy, buy a $50k amp if you feel like it. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 103
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:55 pm: |
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Well, we'll have to disagree. I sold Rega and NAD and I preferred the sound of the NAD generally. There was something off about the Rega Planet to me, but many of my customers liked it. It seemed colored to me, purposely so. The Planet 2000 sounded normal to me, though I couldn't swear it was better than a C542. None of the differences were ever 'huge'. But then, I find that the more I switch back and forth, the smaller the differences get as my mind randomizes its prejudices and expectations. Once they're sufficiently randomized, the sound differences shrink to something quite a bit less than huge. Most people seem to latch onto the first impressions rather than continue to analyze it, lest the differences go away. Harder to rationalize the extra expense and why ruin the buzz when you're exited? But it's my *job* to analyze these differences and see if they're real or imagined. I can't go stick my neck out with a difference based on what I had for breakfast. But, I'm also very happy that CDs and amps have gotten to be so good. Not for my business sake, but just for musical enjoyment sake. It would be GREAT if a $1000 CD player sounded dramatically better than a $300 player, but I'll settle for a little bit better, perhaps. Of course, i figure maybe my speakers will get far more revealing in the future, so maybe the little differences I buy now will be even more enjoyable in the future. If not, stuff like Masters just makes me feel good. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12516
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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"But even if you can, if someone has a different opinion, doesn't it perfectly cancel your opinion, yielding it meaningful only to you"
Maybe, but isn't that the most important thing to having or Selling a system to someone. The fact that THEY enjoy it more, and that one person can in fact hear the difference. If the person buying can hear the difference, then to them, they can. Therefore they should buy, or be sold, the amplifier most needed by their listening habits.
Aww, Nick, I knew you had it in you. Good going!
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12517
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:03 pm: |
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"Nuck, THD is far from antiquated when it comes to speakers."
Aww, c'mon, fishy, your lies just keep getting bigger and bigger. That's a pile of BS! |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12518
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:06 pm: |
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"Well, if you ever want to risk a lot of money, let me know."
ROTFL What a cheap trick!
"What I'm mainly saying is that people shouldn't buy expensive amps or CD players to solve problems that exist in their speakers or room or setup. Once they fix those, sure, go crazy, buy a $50k amp if you feel like it."
What you're saying is buy some speakers, they're a cheap, quick sale. Yep, I've worked with you. "Cheap" just keeps coming up with you.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 104
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:07 pm: |
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The earth is also pretty much a sphere and it orbits the sun, not the other way around, Jan, hate to break it to you. The easter bunny isn't real, raising taxes doesn't raise tax revenue, Obama really is just another politician, drinking miller lite doesn't get you 6 pack abs and hot chicks in bikinis. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12519
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:21 pm: |
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"Oh, I got the impression that you feel that measurements are not very important in determining sound quality. Is this a fair assessment of what you have been saying. If so, I just was wondering what you felt were the most important contributors to the sound quality of an amplifier."
Measurements have their place. There's no point in a designer trying to get a SET amplifier down to 0.0001% T.H.D. There's also no point in a solid state amplifier being introduced to the world with a 5% T.H.D. spec unless the designer acknowledges that is well into clipping into a typical 8 Ohm resistive load. The class T amps have high distortion numbers so they can show a higher wattage capacity. At typical listening levels they still operate at realistic T.H.D. numbers and sound very good.
The problem with conventional specs/measurements is they do not reflect the real world conditions the equipment must face and they tend to be incomplete as far as the information you might actually need to make good choices in system matching. Furthermore, as the quote I supplied suggests, there is no measurement for "soundstage" or other qualities which are essential to high quality performance.
If you ask me what's important to an amplifier's sound, I'll repeat what I've said many times on this forum. Design, execution and talent. The final quality is an intangible since a designer cannot predict what components/speakers their product will be paired with - it is synergy. There are always a group of high value, low cost products. There have always been high cost, low value items also. In between those extremes you tend to get exactly what you pay for.
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 269
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:34 pm: |
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Thanks for your explanation. High value, low cost products. This had been a commonly held view toward NAD. Is it safe to assume you disgree with this sentiment? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12522
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:14 am: |
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"disgree"? Since we're checking each other's spelling to make sure we can get our leg up high enough on the other guy before we p*ss on him, I assume you meant to spell "disagree".
You can read my answer to that question at the top of this thread. My opinions of NAD as a whole have not been shielded from this forum. However, unlike some people presently on this forum I don't begin to think I know so much that I can determine the "value" of an item I am not buying for my personal use. Everybody gets to decide what they require and they should not be called "gullible" for asking for more than NAD has to offer. Only a di*khead would do that.
I'm not sure what game you believe you're playing, id, but my opinions have remained very constant over my time on this forum. I've been at this long enough to know what's true and what's not, what's of value to know and what's not. If you think you're going to trip me into any contradictions, you'll be sorely disappointed.
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Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly
Nova Scotia
Canada
Post Number: 254
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 07:33 am: |
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"Well, if you ever want to risk a lot of money, let me know"
John, you really need to let this one go. What you are saying is insulting. You say you have listened and analyzed differences until YOU are satisfied YOU don't hear significant (whatever that means to YOU) differences. Therefore, noone else will, if they get over themselves and their silly first impressions. Is this it ? It this what you're saying ?
If so, you need to do some more analysis, because there are other conclusions to be reached based on that data. Whenever other people....MANY other people....get a different result than you, what other conclusion might you reach ? Because if you have thrown those other options out, it presumes you value ONLY your opinion and listening talents. It also assumes you have nothing new to learn. That's great for what's best for YOU, but it's arrogant if you take that to mean you have it all figured out for everyone else.
We've all listened to different gear and NOT purchased it. What does anyone have to gain by buying any piece of gear that they don't think is better ? I can understand that some customers can be fooled by "differences" as opposed to "improvements", but not the mass hysteria you seem to be implying.
The other point I'll attempt to make is this. You seem to be implying that long term listening is a more reliable judge of differences or improvements than first impressions. Perhaps that's true, perhaps not. In my studies with human perception in other areas, first impressions are actually considered more reliable, as the human mind tends to recalibrate to its current environment over time. Smell is a good example. Have you ever walked into a room and immediately observed a very strong odor...say in a restaurant for instance. Once you are in the restaurant for a while you tend to no longer smell that odor. If you leave and get into a car with someone that has not been in that environment, they will likely smell the odor on you, and you cannot smell it at all. Further, smells you have been exposed to over a longer period (the smell of your home, your car, your dog, etc) may go almost unnoticed until you are away from them for extended periods. It's all very interesting.
I've neither read nor done any studies in this regard on audio perception, I'm just raising the point that long term exposure to sonic signatures may not necessarily be a more accurate way of detecting differences. |
Platinum Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 10097
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 07:47 am: |
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High value/low cost NAD may be, but if someone does not care for the result, then there is zero value, regardless of cost.
If someone just wants music and does not listen carefully, or is just a fan of music rather than presentation, then anything could be construed as high value, or good enough.
Bear in mind that most of us are true fans of music AND enjoy the gear to get us happy, so caveat emptour(sp)? |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 107
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 10:42 am: |
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Nuck, in my long experience, I've found that most of the time people are unhappy, it's with the speakers. they upgrade the CD, amp, cables, and say "well, this fixed that problem" but then later they say 'now i've got a new problem' but that problem sound suspiciously like the exact same problem. but they explain it differently because they're *sure* they took care of that with the other purchase. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 108
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 10:47 am: |
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Nick, long term listening to the same thing will allow you to ignore its 'strong odor'. listening to many different things and going back and forth and listening to different speakers as I do every day, and you start to get a better sense of what is real and what isn't. I'm not saying that here is *no* difference in electronics, of course there is. But if you think they are "huge", even close to what the difference is in speakers, then you should really take part in *one* DBT just to shake up your confidence a bit. One guy put his pride on the line with his $20K speaker cables and couldn't tell the difference between that and really cheap cables. Hurt him, but he admitted that is made him more cautious. I'd also like to add that some people don't need a placebo to really enjoy music, some do. I think those that do are scared that if they truly understand the placebo effect, they won't enjoy music any more. |
Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly
Nova Scotia
Canada
Post Number: 256
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:15 pm: |
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John, what is described as a "huge" difference by one person may not be described that way by another. It doesn't change the differences, only the descriptors. How someone describes the difference is based on what they hear (different for everyone) and how important that difference is to them. If someone uses the term "huge" that's fine. You can use a different term if you like that's up to you, but, again, it doesn't invalidate their experience. And they don't have to take a DBT test to prove it to anyone. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1428
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:42 pm: |
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Chris is right, HUGE is just a way to express it.
JA- I feel the NADT763 does a great job for an AVR when it comes to two channel material as well as multi-channel. When I switched it out for a H/K 635, the two channel material became brutal to my ears. It completely sounded like the music was too "electronic" sounding and no longer natural. I lost bass control and slam, highs were bright. I actually did that A/B test between the two receivers a few times because I honestly at first could not believe what I was hearing. Every time I listened, and more that I listened, more I disliked the H/K's sound all together. I just love music, but could not enjoy it using something that sounded like that H/K did to my ears. |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 270
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:01 pm: |
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"disgree"? Since we're checking each other's spelling to make sure we can get our leg up high enough on the other guy before we p*ss on him, I assume you meant to spell "disagree".
Actually, I am not the one checking on spelling errors to "piss" on anybody. Just take it easy Jan, you get all worked up. I know you don't like the NAD sound I just wondered since you have an "open" mind if you felt the presentation they offer was a value for what they asked for it. I don't want or need to trip you up, it gives me no pleasure I just was asking an opinion. |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 271
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:11 pm: |
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"Everybody gets to decide what they require and they should not be called "gullible" for asking for more than NAD has to offer. Only a di*khead would do that".
Before John came on this board I never heard you speak this way Jan. What is it that is troubling you, one person’s opinion? You are quite opinionated, and I don't see anybody hurling expletives your way? |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 110
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:30 pm: |
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Looks like anyone who doesn't think front end is the biggest part of an audio system gets Jan's fury. I looked back to find out who Wiley was and of the two or three posts back and forth with Jan, Wiley seemed pretty normal, but, unfortunately for him, something similar to what I believe. The one post he said something to the effect that if a person has a mediocre system, speakers will be more important and that if you have really high-end speakers, then you put more money into electronics. Starting to realize why some people might think we're the same person, but we're not. I am assuming that Jan drove Wiley off the board with his constant personal attacks and is attempting to do the same with me, so he can go back to be the unquestioned leader of the forum. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12526
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:31 pm: |
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"Nuck, in my long experience, I've found that most of the time people are unhappy, it's with the speakers. they upgrade the CD, amp, cables, and say "well, this fixed that problem" but then later they say 'now i've got a new problem' but that problem sound suspiciously like the exact same problem. but they explain it differently because they're *sure* they took care of that with the other purchase."
Right, if you simply replace their cheap CD player with another cheap CD player and tell them cables are not important, that will not and cannot solve their problem. In your "lonnnnnnnnnng" experience(?) (If you want to play that game of "years of experience", fishy, you've lost to half a dozen of the Old Dogs on this forum, so let's not go down that "argument from authority" path since you don't have any authority there.) you have found it's quicker and easier to sell a difference - a speaker - than an improvement - the front end. You have to be able to hear it before you can sell it. You can't hear it and you can't sell it! Yep, I've worked with you.
"Nick, long term listening to the same thing will allow you to ignore its 'strong odor'. listening to many different things and going back and forth and listening to different speakers as I do every day, and you start to get a better sense of what is real and what isn't."
Then why haven't you figured out what's real and what isn't. Words, just words. BS supreme!
"not saying that here is *no* difference in electronics, of course there is. But if you think they are "huge", even close to what the difference is in speakers ... "
That's the problem, you found out you can sell a difference in a few minutes and any fool can hear a "difference". My grandmother could hear the "difference" between speakers and she's been dead for forty years, kinda like your ears.
What you cannot sell is an improvement, which is what you can achieve with the front end. You can't sell it because you can't hear it.
What do you "sell" when you sell a speaker, fishy? What do you tell people to listen for? I think that might be an interesting way to find out what you can hear. What amplifier and components do you use for your demos?
fishy, we already granted you the undoubted ability of speakers to produce large differences even between speakers within a line. When a speaker company produces thirty six products with overlapping price points, there's gotta be a "difference" between models. Moving the same speaker into a corner produces a "large difference" - not an improvement typically but a difference. That there are differences between speakers does not prove the ineffectiveness of the front end. This is not "if X is true then Y must be false".
You want to make a quick, easy sale, that's all there is to it. You have no "better" electronics for comparison so you have to make your sale on the "difference" between speakers.
If I have no bagels, I will try to sell you another doughnut.
It's simple to figure out your stratgey for getting money out of customers. You lie to them and don't show them anything that would disprove your lies or improve their systems. You're a shyster!
Now, please, stop with the DBT's and the anecdotal evidence of how you cheat customers. And stop with the f'ing "*"'s on words for Crissake! Who taught you that?!
We've all listened for ourself and heard what improvements can be had with better electronics. You can't hear and you won't sell anything that lets a client hear better sound - just something different. That your customers don't get an opportunity to hear an improvement doesn't mean we haven't done a better comparison than you allow your customers.
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12527
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:43 pm: |
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"Before John came on this board I never heard you speak this way Jan. What is it that is troubling you, one person’s opinion? You are quite opinionated, and I don't see anybody hurling expletives your way?"
I'm very opinionated, I never deny that. And my opinion has always been everyone gets to spend their money however they prefer as long as it doesn't hurt someone else or cross the lines of legality or morality. And I get very opinionated when someone comes on this forum kicking down doors and stomping on people they don't know. And that's what fishy has been doing. He's been rude.
I also get opinionated when someone spews BS all over this forum hoping no one will call them on it. I've never backed away from any charge that what I said might not be true. I'll discuss anything worthwhile with anyone. That's what this forum is about. But insults evoke insults. What they don't do with me is carry over to another thread. Unless you start kicking in doors again, like fishy has done in the "speakers" thread, I don't hold grudges. And I don't spend my time trying to challenge anyone hoping they can't answer a question. That's for punks!
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 111
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:45 pm: |
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Jan, I hear just fine, and I'd wager I hear much better than you. The thing is, I know the difference between "huge" and "subtle" and can therefore help people better. To you, an expensive bandaid or herbal tea is as good as open heart surgery for a person with total heart failure. Thank goodness you're not a doctor. Well, I pray you're not.
Most of what you say is not worth answering because it's just snide, personal attack. As I said, a DBT will educate you on how good you *really* hear and how much self-deception you use every day. Some people fear them, I find them interesting and useful. I haven't done a true DBT, but have done lots of SBTs. But I also found that I could read the intentions of the switcher in their voice tone and confound them by giving them the opposite answer of what they wanted, just to dick around with them, like when a friend tried to prove to me the cryogenically frozen CDs or green inked CDs sounded better. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 112
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:49 pm: |
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Ah, big forum bully calling me a punk. How ironic. BS is when you spout something you can't prove. I can prove what I say. You can't or won't, so who is full of it? Who wants to spout without being challenged? I challenged you, as did this Wiley fellow, so you're going spastic. At least Chris and Nick and even Nuck occasionally can recognize that we just have different POVs. A little self-deception is fine, but don't try to deceive other people with unscientific, unprovable nonsense. |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 272
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 02:20 pm: |
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"I also get opinionated when someone spews BS all over this forum hoping no one will call them on it. I've never backed away from any charge that what I said might not be true. I'll discuss anything worthwhile with anyone. That's what this forum is about. But insults evoke insults. What they don't do with me is carry over to another thread. Unless you start kicking in doors again, like fishy has done in the "speakers" thread, I don't hold grudges. And I don't spend my time trying to challenge anyone hoping they can't answer a question. That's for punks"!
Jan, do you think that everything John has said is BS? I don't think you have given him any credit for anything he has said. Perhaps, if you spoke to instead of at John you two could have a productive dialogue. I believe if that were the case the forum as a whole could benefit. Jan, if you want to lead you have to set a good example. I see John has agreed with you on a point you made on the speaker forum, that is a start. Oh, the fishie thing and the constant expletives, come on Jan you are bigger than that. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 114
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 02:30 pm: |
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Chris, i gotcha. I do think everyone should try a DBT with any selection of gear they wish. Or even SBT. It will shake your belief system, but it will also make you think.
Nick, I agree with you, especially if you substitute Yamaha or Carver for H/K, though I'm pretty sure my love of music would allow me to get over it. The big variable with AVRs is setup and internal processing. Some have actual flaws that can dramatically change the sound and certainly setting up the bass management or speaker settings wrong can do that as well. AVRs really are pretty different, so when I am talking about the smaller differences, I'm talking about stereo gear where there are few variables outside design and parts. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 115
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 02:31 pm: |
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"Oh, the fishie thing and the constant expletives, come on Jan you are bigger than that."
You know, I'm not so sure that he is. Would that it were so. |
Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly
Nova Scotia
Canada
Post Number: 258
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 03:12 pm: |
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"Chris, i gotcha. I do think everyone should try a DBT with any selection of gear they wish. Or even SBT. It will shake your belief system, but it will also make you think. "
With just about every component I've had in the house, I've swapped it in, listened for a few days (or longer) and then swapped it out. I don't know what you consider an "official" SBT, but presumably I'd have to cloak my stereo and have my wife do the switching. I don't think it's really necessary, and my wife would think I've lost my mind. When I have nothing to lose, and don't really know which will sound better, why would I kid myself about which one does ? I just listen, switch, listen, etc. Not scientific, but it works for me.
Sometimes it takes a lot of listening to determine the differences, and then decide if they make the music better or worse. Sometimes they jump out at you in the first measure. Those are the times when you stop evaluating, and just sit back and enjoy the music. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 116
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 03:24 pm: |
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That's how most of us do it. I put something in and if i like it, i like it. But we just get back to the idea of whether it is good to take that and then stand on it like it's universal fact. You know, the difference between "I like this better" and "It IS better". That's all I'm getting at. A little self doubt is good. One time, when I got attacked on a freeway by some crazy guy, I identified him as white or maybe hispanic, but when they got back to me and said "are you SURE?", well, I said, "well, I *think* so, but I wouldn't swear on it as I had a lot going on at the time" and the black cop said "well, he's darker than I am!" and I said "ooops!" |
Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly
Nova Scotia
Canada
Post Number: 259
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 03:52 pm: |
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"But we just get back to the idea of whether it is good to take that and then stand on it like it's universal fact. You know, the difference between "I like this better" and "It IS better". That's all I'm getting at."
I understand. The caveat I would put on that though is this. I have heard differences that are substantial enough that I would be quite comfortable saying "It IS better, for ME". I can't say it in absolutes as I only know my own view, but there are times when I can without a doubt say "I like that better!". Whether anyone else does is really up to them. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12530
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 05:31 pm: |
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.
You are ignoring the very function of a reference. If you have no reference, you cannot say anything is "better". You can only claim it to be "different" or "similar" to your current position.
If you have a basis for comparison that does not vary from day to day or component to component, you can say which example is substantially "better". This is simply the application of common sense.
One of my points has always been, "You cannot get anywhere until you know where you are standing." Once you determine your position relative to your goal, you can proceed without risking disaster. No goal? You can't get there. No sense of where you are? Everything is a different direction.
A reference point makes everything possible.
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Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 117
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 11:20 pm: |
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Chris, we were doing a bit of this today, comparing Revel Studio2s to PSB Synchrony Twos, the NAD M3 to the Peachtree Decco. The listener preferred the Studio2s run by the $800 Decco, while I preferred the $2800 M3 running the Studio2s. We didn't argue about it, it was just fun hearing the differences. He admitted like the lusher sound of tubes while I felt the M3 did a little better in the bass and had more extended treble. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1435
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 08:26 am: |
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If you sold him the Peachtree, then a job well done. |
Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly
Nova Scotia
Canada
Post Number: 261
Registered: Jul-07
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| Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:27 am: |
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I expect I would have purchased the same as your customer. I enjoy a little meat on the bone as well. More Terry Hatcher than Kate Moss....although there is nothing wrong with either. |
Silver Member Username: John_ashman
Albuquerque,
NM
United States
Post Number: 118
Registered: Apr-08
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| Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:41 am: |
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nope, didn't sell him anything, he just came in to listen and talk audio. He's got a nice amp, i forget the name right how as it's a smaller label, but he might want to change his speakers out some day. Nice guy. I have a policy of never asking anyone to buy anything. Not even the 'would you prefer wood or black' or 'would you like to take that home with you'. People like coming in because, while i might mention something they *should* buy, I never actually try to make them buy it today. |
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