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Thread: Paradigm Signature v.2 (S1 vs S2 Setup) |
    
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 03:51 pm: |
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Looking for a high end audio/HT system in the sub-$10K price range. Considering Paradigm and B&W lines. Been reading about Paradigm Signature v.2 and am intrigued. Was wondering if anyone's looked at the v.2 S1/C1/ADP1(2)/Signature Servo as a system (1700+1300+1300x2+3799=$9400)? I've seen Paradigm's review references and most have used S1 or S2 alone or S8/C5/ADP3/Signature Servo configurations. (In fact Paradigm web page doesn't even show an S1 system configuration yet - but it sure looks like they mean to from the v.2 announcement). I've heard of lower prices in some articles (1600+900+900x2+3799=$8000). Perhas the finish options - anyone know for sure? I'm thinking I might be better off upgrading the S1's to S2 ($2400) given some of the reviews I've read (i.e. S2+sub approaching S8 performace). If I go with the S2's, should I worry about upgrading to the C3/ADP-3s? Would I be losing much with the S2+Sub vs the S4+Sub, S6+Sub, or S8+Sub or S8 alone? What about the Servo 15 v.2 ($2200 - 1200W) instead of the Signature Servo ($3799 - 1500W). My listening room is not hugh (15x25, 15x15 speaker to listener), but tend to like to crank it up. I'm much more worried about audio and SACD characteristics than HT rumble, but I like solid base response. Not worried much about 1200W not being enough - but is there a noticable sound difference that justifies the Signature Sub's cost? Other choices (brands) anyone would recommend over this setup in this price range - i.e. am I missing something? I guess where I'm leaning intellectually/financially without having heard them yet is S2/C1/ADP1x2/Servo-15 (2400+900+900x2+2200=$6300) which leaves some room for some other gear in my $10K budget. What to drive them with - my dealership likes Rotel? I have a Yamaha RX-V595. Definitely would like to find someplace to hear them set up before I buy. Sadly, the only Paradigm dealer in Arizona (Tucson) doesn't carry the Signatures and won't bring them in without a purchase. Must be time for a road-trip! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1249
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 08:10 am: |
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Rick-Any one of those Signature packages you mentioned would be great. The Servo 15 hits hard and the Signature Servo will kick you in the stomach. IMO I don't think all that great speaker is going to be worth it if your powering them with Yamaha or Rotel. With something like the Signature line, IMO the lowest you should be looking at for gear is the Reference Anthem line. Bryston,Mac and a few other brands with Grunt and clean power will be needed for these speakers. Mid-Fi stuff like NAD and Rotel will fall flat on their face with quality like this. Then don't forget the source. Budget for everything. Don't spend 10 grand on the speakers and then play music through a Sony cd player and a Yamaha receiver. Cheers. |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 06:23 pm: |
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Thanks Nick. That helps.
I'm noticing the low frequency extentions on the fronts are:
S2 - 38Hz
S4 - 35Hz
S6 - 28Hz
S8 - 26Hz
The Signature Servo and Servo-15 cut-off is 35-150Hz.
If I'm using the S2's (possibly with C1/ADP1's) with one Sub, do you think there are going to be any issues with the base range sounding boxy or with any noticable imaging issues in the base range. Given the 140 watt max on the S2's, do you think the Signature Sub (vs the Servo 15) is going to be overkill on power?
Also, the S2's & C1 are rated 140 watts max., the ADP1 is 225 watts max, and the sub is powered. What amount of power per channel do you think the amp should have for these? (e.g. the Anthem Statement P2/P5 are 375 Watts per channel). Are you saying I should only be pushing a high end amp to say <50% of its rated load to get the best response out of the speakers? Or that only the high end amps are going to actually be able to supply enough clean power at whatever rating they can be had that is above speaker max rating?
BTW - on second visit to the local stereo shop with discussion of Paradigm Signatures - their setup of of choice was B&W 803D ($9K) with Anthem, with or without a subwoofer - sounded pretty good - nice imaging! They also liked B&W 803S or 804S over Paradigm Signatures (not that they have any Signatures in house or have heard the v.2s). Said both brands were good, but different - Paradigm's being a bit more up-front in the midrange (which I did notice comparing B&W 683 with Paradigm Monitor). They weren't as keen on speaker setups that had fronts without woofers (book shelves) + Sub - per questions on boxy base above. But at the same time, it seemed like they would take the higher end book shelves + Sub (say B&W 805S+Sub) over a lower quality front with woofers (say B&W 683, CM, or 7xx). What fun! Need to find somewhere that has both lines to compare. May need to find additional funding too if this keeps up - so much for budgets. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9845
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 07:16 pm: |
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Rick, your budget is memory, man. Add 25% for wires and cabling or plan ahead and try DIY stuff.
Again, to remind you of Nick's caution, any of these speakers should not be driven seriously with a receiver. I say that a lot, but this really calls for a total rethink of your intentions and read a whole bunch before hitting the line of credit/kids college fund type of money.
Just what I see from here, man. |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 05:23 pm: |
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Hi Nuck. I get there's a lot more to the system cost than the speakers. And you're right - I've just starting looking into a serious system for the first time - which is why I'm asking questions. I'm not enamored with receivers (particular not the Yamaha I own) and was expecting to replace it. The basic questions I'm asking are (1) given some amount of funds for a speaker set up, could one achieve better sound with a "great" tweeter+mid+sub or with a "good" tweeter+mid+woofers+sub (e.g. would you take a Paradigm S2($2200)+Sub over a Paradigm Studio 100($1900)+Sub) and (2) how much wattage (in a power amp) is needed to drive something like a Paradigm Signature S2 -rated 140W max (e.g. Nick suggested Bryston who makes a 100W, 150W, 300W and 600W per channel power amps - which might be a good match?). |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1257
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 06:17 pm: |
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Rick- Its' not so much the amount of power needed, as the Signatures are not an overly hard speaker to power. What I meant was 'quality' of power. Pure, Clean power. Besides, we want to get the full potential out of these speakers. The Studio 100's are a fantastic speaker IMO for the price. Not as much so as the 60's IMO. The 60's are the star in the Studio series(price/performance), especially when using a sub. The Signature series are much better than the Studio's though. I own the Paradigm Studio Monitors(1996, Now called the Studio 100's)And although they are a great speaker, they don't come close in comparison to something like the Signature series. If you got the money to spend, the Sigs are the way to go. I have heard them on NAD,Anthem,Bryston all sounded good, mind you I wouldn't recommend NAD for the Signature line. My dealer owns the Paradigm S2's with Dual McIntosh Mono Tube amps running them and he said he has never heard anything better. Again, you have to mix quality with quality, to achieve quality. That goes for the whole system. Have fun with it, and of course, enjoy the music. Cheers. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9857
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:27 pm: |
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However, there is so much more to a complete system.Hmmm...
If you demand high power RnR, Rick(like I do) then the big power sets are great, those Sig's in paricular. I would use mono amps for those, Classe or Mac, like with big B&W's.
However, if ultimate rock can be comprimized into a more co-hesive packae, then I would look at Naim. Still rocks, just not as mullet.
And Rega are very synergystic, just not as RnR.
Remember, when you buy a system, it is likely(had better be) most likely to pull into the music, to open the way to greater appreciation for the musicians and emotions. This, in turn, opens up lots of new music for you, stuff that you might not have listened to before.
THAT makes a balanced system the big payoff here. It is likely a long term commitment, don't be limiting the opportunity. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1262
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 11:55 am: |
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Almost forgot about Classe, that would be a sick setup as well. Their power amps are very beefy, and sound great Rick. Check Nuck's info. |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 5
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 12:51 pm: |
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Ok - so I'm moving pass the speaker end and towards the listener (and seeing the folly of my desires vs funds). All good stuff. Thanks for your patience and advice.
Nick_K - does your dealer use a sub or not? If not, what does he think of the bottom end?
So without trying to deviate from the sound quality goals I had hoped to achieve lets try this for some system thoughts....
Lets say 5.1 audio is still the goal. With some reading, seems for audio that five directs would be better than di-poles and center and the S2's short enough to squeeze under or above a TV (if I have to watch HT on this system), so let's say 5 Paradigm S2 with one of their subs (Servo 15). But for cost purposes lets defer 3 of the S2s and build a stereo setup that may someday grow into a 5.1. (2x$1100+$2200=$4400 say with 3x$1100=$3300 deferred, plus stands).
I've noticed Bryston has a really nice warranty.
Bryston 9B-SST PRO (120x5) at $5300.
Bryston PowerPack 120 SST at $1500 x 5 = $7500 (defer 3)
Bryston PowerPack 300 SST at $1800 x 5 = $9000 (defer 3)
Classe's CA-2100 (100x5) at $3500.
Classe's CA-5200 (200x5) at $8000.
Anthem Statement P5 (375x5) at $5000.
McIntosh MC205 (200x5) at $6000.
Always worshiped McIntosh but hearing its perhaps not the best price performer these days.
Understand you would like monoblocks for channel isolation, but my room is probably not going to accomodate near speaker placement for aestitic reason. And the multi-channel amps are cheaper at the 5 channel level. Any thoughts? Still back on how much power - is 120 per channel enough or do I need 200+. 200 would be more flexible if I ever change speakers obviously. I suspect that at 120, the S2 are going to be loud enough to take my head off (especially if all 5 are active with another 1200 watts in the sub). Contray to all that, I've heard good things about the Anthem P5 with Signatures and it's in a nice middle price range and maybe the extra head room is better for THD. Other choices?
What about the front end. Choices for Pre-amp/processor? SADA/DVD-A Player? Cables?
I'm probably not quite understanding how you control what gets sent to the sub. Do 5.1 audio tracks tend to put a combination of the five channel's bottom end on the .1 track so that you have more the just ultra LF? I'm assuming I want the sub to take up at least some of the base response that the S2's are going to lack (per question at top). If you're running a stereo track, does a 5.1 processor do the same to the two stereo track for the .1 out ? - guess I should read up on this instead of asking you.
What else?
Thought here is to price the system out (stereo going to 5.1) and see if the whole thing falls apart financially (P.S. - don't mention the home additon for a media/theatre room). |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1277
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 02:19 pm: |
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Rick- I would say get the Sub if your using the system for movies, Do not get the sub for music. My dealer is not using a sub in a two channel configuration with great results. But, start with just the S2's, if you feel you need more bass for music, pick up the sub. You can always return it.
At 120 Watts of good clean power, yes the Sigs will still take your face off. Don't worry about the sub's watts, it will power itself. And yes when watching a movie, your speakers will be set to small so all the bass below the desired frequency will be sent to the sub.
Anthem and Paradigm are the same company so for obvious reasons the Sig's/Anthem combo will have great synergy. Either of your listed choices would be great IMO. Cheers. |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 6
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 09:17 pm: |
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Nick_K - I see in the amp forum you have a new-old Bryston 3B. Nice grab at $600. I'm cruzing through the used stuff - seems like some deals to be had.
When you said Mono-block amps above, do you delineate between an Mono Amp and a multi-channel amp that (actually) implements independent Mono-block channels - like say the Athem P5 or Bryston 9B-SST?
Any thoughts on solid state vs tubes?
I know I love them in my Marshall, but that's another story. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1280
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 10:11 am: |
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I personally don't think your need a Mono Amp when looking at big amps like the P5 or Bryston 9B-SST. I did pick up a used Bryston, and love it. I will be looking for more of it after the wedding. Only tube amps I have heard is the old McIntosh and they sound great. Tube amps have a lot more up-keep but can have its benefits. From what I have personally heard I really like a Solid State Amp paired with a Tube Pre-Amp. But to each their own. Bryston is one of the few companies you can really rely on when buying used. 20 Year warranty. And their stuff just does not break. |
Bronze Member Username: Jazzman71
Phoenix,
AZ
USA
Post Number: 73
Registered: Dec-07
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:52 pm: |
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RR, I think the tube versus SST depends on what you want the system to do. If you are looking at HT and a 5.1/7.1 setup, I personally would forget about tubes and stick with the SST amps. If you are only looking at a 2.1 setup and plan to use it mostly for music, then I think you could go either way based on your listening preferences.
Heed the advice of Nick and Nuck when they talk about clean power. To maybe make it a bit clearer, 100 WRMS/CH in a high end HT power amplifier is not like 100 WRMS/CH in a $200 big box integrated receiver. Personally, with a room your size, I would not go over 100 WPC x 5 or so unless you like to listen at SPLs where you are sweeping up glass and rehanging pictures after you watch a movie. That amount of clean power (or even less) would be fine for me; your results may vary. Also, if you are in Arizona, keep your air conditioning load in mind before you start pumping out 2KW of heat every time you fire it up. That Anthem P5 you are looking at draws 3600 watts.
You started out talking about a "high end audio/HT" system, so I assume you want something that will do both. That is always somewhat of a compromise, though less so with the high end gear. Still, be sure to consider how you will use the system. If you have a critical ear for music, then I would tend to make it music first, because when a bomb goes off in an action movie, I don't consider it critical listening. If you are going to do a lot of music listening in multi-channel, you have an easier job in the power amp stage, but still some dilemnas in the pre/processor gear. For 2-channel listening, there are good tube pre-amps with HT bypass (useful because you don't have to recable), but then you have spent $2K and still need a HT processor. I see alot of high end HT processors being criticized for the quality of their 2-channel music reproduction, so I would tend to opt for the quality stereo pre and try and carve that budget out of the other stuff. See link for a discussion of what I am trying in my convoluted way to point out:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?bhome&1018542212&openflup&7&4
BTW, if you are still interested in the Paradigms, give this place a call to see what they have. They came up when I was looking for the Studio 60s. I plan to stop in the next time I am in Prescott.
http://www.paradigm.com/en/dealer_locator/reference_results.php?DealerSelect=106 9&type=Locator
Good luck and keep us posted. |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 7
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 06:04 pm: |
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Neal
Thanks so much for the dealer reference. The Tucson store told me they were the only dealer in the state left so I didn't even try Arizona in the dealer locator. The Prescott store says they are the only Paradigm Reference store in the state (and that the Tucson store is not a Reference Store - even though Paradigm points me to them for Reference). They were much help on the phone and even said they could bring stuff to Tucson for me to try out. WOW.
So to level set what I know and what I'm trying to do. I'm an electrical engineer (30 years in storage products - not audio) and also a musican so I'm at least familiar with electronics, Nth order filters, frequence spectrums, noise, watts, high power/low fidelity PA systems, SPL, dBs, THD, etc. etc.
In my current setup, I've got two KLH A5001s (3W, 1", 5", 12" - $400 for the pair at price club!) + 2 Phase Technology 2T Satellites (small?), all driven by my Yamaha RX-595. For audio, the satellites are off as well as any AV effects. For stereo, its tolerable - almost. For HT, I'm using the L/R speakers of our Mitsubishi 40" Tube TV on top of the TV and driven by the TV for a center, play with the volume on the RX and TV to try to keep the sound track from overwhelming the voice tracks, and the satellites are laying on the floor near the couch - usually unnoticed sonically. I also have a pair of outdoor speakers on the "B Speakers" of the RX for music on the patio. A bit pathetic, but there it is.
After breaking the bank paying for two kids weddings this year, I bumped into some DefTech Towers (with the bi-polar arrays and a 12" powered sub on each side - 2K/pair) and thought, damn, it's way past time to spend some serious coin on a real audio system. Thus the last three weeks of spare time have been a somewhat complusive research project in what audio you can get for your money these days. I got REALLY excited when I heard about SACD and DVDA for 5.1 audio for the first time - but I guess subsequent info has led me to the lack of available media as well as questionable future of multi-channel audio formats.
So where I've needed some help is in trying to translate my musical/engineering knowledge into a set of available components for a balanced hi-fi system for music that, incidentially, I also use to watch movies on. My setup now is adequate for HT in my mind even though it would be nice if I had a real center (take that as I'm not a real HT person).
So this is where I seem to be so far. I think that audio is the way overriding criteria for this sytem. I was trying to push into the Beryillium or Diamond tweeter range of technology, but wanting to do it as cheaply as possible so the Paradigm S2 + Sub seem the best price performer relative to the B&W 803Ds and better sonically than the B&W 805s+Sub (though I've only heard the 803Ds). I was trying to see if I needed to worry about S2+Sub vs S4+Sub but sounds like the answer is S2+Sub will be fantastic.
So back to the rest of the system. I was going to try to leave the 5.1 option open in case that goes some where, but I think it's looking more and more like diminishing returns. Most processors haven't caught up with the latest HDMI interfaces, many are geared more to HT and aren't audio adequate. Most have far more switching capability than I need, and seem to all cost too much given the likelyhood of their obsolence with changes in interface technology.
I think I've grown to like Bryston without even hearing them and they happen to make something in the 150W range. (The Anthem reference stuff only comes in 375W per channel - and yes I knew about the two line cord/rewiring the house issues). Had a slight pause relative to tube warmth vs SS, but lets say I'm going to use a Bryston 3B-SST as the power amp for fun.
Is there a good way to get great 2.1 audio (S2+sub) that also somehow handles modest 5.1 HT? I think, the Prescott store suggested using an AV receiver as the pre-amp to the Bryston stero and the Sub and the receiver power amp for the HT sattelites (Onkyo 875? plus Dennon 193). Can you suggest or even recommend some equipment options that might work?
BTW - thanks to all you who have responded to my questions. It has all been very helpful and much appreciated. And, sorry, I know I'm way to chatty in my forum appends - but perhaps the details give you more info. These formus are a wealth of information for me. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1281
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 07:08 pm: |
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"I think, the Prescott store suggested using an AV receiver as the pre-amp to the Bryston stero and the Sub and the receiver power amp for the HT sattelites"
Thats exactly what I do Rick, with good results. |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 8
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 07:55 pm: |
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Neal - I just read your reference (after I responded above). So maybe a few more questions.
Let's say I buy a good stereo pre-amp for the stereo setup. I could a run CD and/or phono (don't have at this point) through the pre-amp for the audio. Does the pre-amp generate the sub-woofer line level output that is a mix down of the bottom of both channels (i.e. the Sub has a single line input, not a stereo input)? Let's say I keep my consumer Yamaha receiver for HT (assuming it has line out's). In that case, I could a run VCR/DVD movies through the receiver and take the pre-amp outputs for the front l/r to the hi-fi pre-amp (which I assume still drives the sub line in) and run the satellites off the surround speaker outputs on the receiver. Hopefully there are enough knobs in the setup to get the thing to balance out correctly. Is this what you mean?
I think I was having trouble in that I was thinking the same DVD/CD box was going to feed both 5.1 movies and 2.1 stereo audio into the setup. By splitting into one audio media and one video media player box, I think that solves it. That would also say I can keep my commersial DVD Sony movie player and then buy a better quality CD player. Am I getting this right?
What do you (or others) think about Bryston BP-25 with Bryston 3B SST? |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 9
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 08:10 pm: |
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Nick_K - I thought you were thinking of getting a better pre-amp (perhaps a Mira or a Bryston BP-25). Would the hook-up with the pre-amp be like I described above? I would guess you would say my Yamaha RX-595 is not the best pre-amp for audio - as in your receiver was limiting your Bryston amp's performance?? BTW - what kind of scotch were you guys drinking - single malts I hope - or I cannot take you seriously as a true audiophile! |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1161
Registered: May-06
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 08:29 pm: |
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#1 - Oban, from the Highlands gateway to the Isles
#2 - Johnny Walker Blue, part of a Walker 4-pack gift set via Nuck
#3 - Talisker, from the Isle if Skye (courtesy of Nuck again)
#4 - Macallens 18 year old single Highland malt
#1 - Don Julio 1942
#2 - Tres Generations Anejo
#3 - Patron Silver (chilled/shaken)
#4 - Herradura Gold |
New member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 10
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 09:54 pm: |
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Michael_W - I see you guys travel in style. Maccallen's one of my favorites. |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 11
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 09:58 pm: |
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I looked more at the Bryston BP-25. It only has a pair of XLR and RCA outs. So may there's something that could be procured or built that would add the two RCA outs together and put a LPF on it with a variable crossover for the Server 15 input? |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 12
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 11:21 pm: |
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"So maybe there's something that could be procured or built that would add the two RCA outs together and put a LPF on it with a variable crossover for the Server 15 input?"
Yes - like the Bryston 10B Sub Crossover.
Pricey though - BP-25 (1995) + 10B (3050)
or
Bryston SP-1.7 has an option for large speakers/bypass/Sub-woofer active (4000?)
(and does 5.1 stuff too if your turn off bypass). |
Bronze Member Username: Jazzman71
Phoenix,
AZ
USA
Post Number: 74
Registered: Dec-07
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| Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 02:10 am: |
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Rick, you are hitting on some points that led me away from trying to mix HT gear and serious two-channel listening.
First, you seem interested in Bryston for a stereo amp. I know Nick likes his, and it's quality gear built like a tank. If you think his setup would work for you, it seems like you can buy one piece (the Bryston) and give it a whirl. If you buy a used one with warranty left, you can resell it for close to what you paid if you want to move to something different.
You seem fairly satisfied with the HT setup. See what your impressions are when running through the A/V receiver to the Bryston for music. I personally think a good source CD player will reveal some serious limitations when piped through an A/V receiver to a decent quality amp like the Bryston. Most here will tell you "source first". So, if you need to updgrade your CD player, you will want to budget for that and put it in the mix with the amp. If there is vinyl in your plans you need to consider that as well. You may not need to go any further, but I strongly suspect you will want to. If you do, you can always add the preamp later and by pass the HT receiver for music altogether. That would be my preference, because A/V receivers are simply not made for two-channel music. There's just too much going on inside that box.
"I think I've grown to like Bryston without even hearing them..." I don't get this:
If you are anticipating upgrading the source, and leaning towards Bryston, listen to a decent source deck through Bryston preamp/amp combo if possible and see if it agrees with your taste.
Then stick the amp in there using the stereo pre-outs like Nick is doing and see what you think. Then you can decide how to proceed re the other stuff.
Don't assume you will want a sub for two-channel music listening. If you buy new fronts, I would buy them with two-channel listening in mind. Most find they do not need a sub. If you buy a preamp, most of the good ones have multiple outputs which will facilitate adding a sub, but I personally would not factor a sub into the music equation.
I know this is vague, but frankly there is too much going on in your posts to sort out. You're an engineer (as I am) and I had to draw this out because I just could not keep it straight otherwise. In a somewhat similar situation I decided to make the heavy investment in the stereo music and go mass market on the HT stuff because I don't use it that much. And I kept the two systems separate. I don't even want my audio gear occupying the same rack as that HT stuff. To each his own. I've rambled enough for one day. Good luck. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1283
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 08:18 am: |
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"I thought you were thinking of getting a better pre-amp (perhaps a Mira or a Bryston BP-25)."
I definitely am Rick. At the moment I am stuck with a HT/2 channel system all in one until after the wedding and I get more room. Once I have the space I am separating the two and getting a Bryston Pre-Amp. The NAD A/V receivers do well for 2 channel stuff for a typical A/V receiver. But as Neil pointed out, it does limit the system. Having a Bryston pre-amp or any other sort of high end two channel pre amp would definitely, by all means, sound better than what I am using now. The setup I have now surprisingly sounds good considering the NAD is in the mix. But when the Bryston pre hits my rack, look out. It will become much better. If was an absolute must that you had 5.1 that had to be decent for 2 channel listening, then what your audio guy told you does work fairly well. Cheers. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2532
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 11:58 am: |
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Rick,
The 10B sub crossover is more than just a low pass filter. Its an active crossover. It gets a little complicated regarding how to use it correctly, but when its used right it takes sound quality beyond the next level.
Most subs have speaker level inputs. You'd run your left and right speaker outputs to the sub, then from the sub to the speakers. Its not difficult. The dealer should explain it and make it simple enough.
How sold are you on HT? A 2 channel system connected to a TV source can sound very good. Unless you're watching a lot of action movies with tons of special effects, you may not miss the extra channels and hassel associated with them. I know I don't.
The Bryston BP-25 and 4BSST are a great combo. Pair them up with a great source like a Naim CD5x and Linn LP12 (I haven't heard BRyston's CD player), and a pair of PMCs towers - no sub needed. That system will put just about everything else to shame. |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 13
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 07:58 pm: |
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Neal,
Ok - so more and more I'm seeing the mess with HT and Audio combined. My current HT setup sounds pretty good as is on movies for my tastes (don't even miss the sub here). I think your advice on not mixing the two makes total sense.
"I think I've grown to like Bryston without even hearing them..." I don't get this:
My comment on the Bryston was based on just their warranty, the resale value, the reviews I read, and some comments here and elsewhere about them.
If I'm just going with a stereo audio setup with no sub, I'm having some trouble believing I'm going to be happy with the base response on an S2 - again haven't heard them, but when I was listening to some 803Ds on an Anthem P5 (in a very large room), I was thinking I might still have liked more bottom (perhaps just the source material or something an EQ tweek could address). But that leads me back towards considering say the Paradigm S4, S6, or S8. I understand bigger towers are going to need more power. (Nuck, here's your chance to extend your earlier comment / Stu, I'll look at the PMCs. Not familiar with them.)
Another issue here might be whether the audio setup moves out of the family/HT room into another smaller room (11x12). Wouldn't a smaller room increase the effective base response of the speakers?
Since I'm starting from scratch for equipment on this system, don't you think the decision on which speakers to use would be the first thing to address? (which is where this forum sort of started out - but had to sort out droping both the audio 5.1 requirements and the HT 5.1 requirement to get back to just stereo or 2.1 audio).
Still in the about $10K +/- range for a stereo system (Speakers, Amp, Pre-amp, CD, cables). Constraints: No tie to brands. Moderate to good aestetics. Mostly care about the sound: Super imaging, high end to die for, lots of base, loud. Rock/ Classical/ Jazz/ Vocal. Moderate room size (<15x25, possibly small 10x12). Tower or stand foot print. Used with warranty would be great. Used that works reliably would be fine. Where would you go for best price/performance? |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1163
Registered: May-06
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| Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 10:27 pm: |
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"Where would you go for best price/performance?"
If I understand your question correctly, dealer demos, trade ins, consignment sales, or this...
http://www.audiogon.com/
I think there is a level of risk with eBay or Craigslist, unless its local and you can try before you buy. |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 14
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 11:11 pm: |
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Well that's good advice - had already found them.
I was really asking for equipment suggestions. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2534
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 12:28 am: |
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Bryston is probably the best bet if buying used. The 20 year transferable warantee is rock solid. Other brands such as McIntosh, Naim, Classe, and so on are pretty safe as well. Bryston just gives you that extra piece of mind.
PMC and Bryston are somewhat sister companies. They distribute each other in NA and Europe. I'm 99% sure they use each other's products to voice their own. PMC active speakers (with amps built in) use Bryston amps. Their is an obvious and very good synergy between them.
A smaller room can reinforce bass response. It can also make bass better or worse. You're usually better off with lower power and smaller speakers in a small room. But there's exceptions to every rule.
As to where to start - speakers, source, etc - there's a few different theories out there, and one is just as valid as the other. In my experience, if you're starting from scratch, listen to whole systems. Dealers should have a few different systems put together on their floor. They can also change different parts to tailor the system to what you need. A great source will be wasted if it doesn't synergize with what's downstream. A great set of speakers can only reproduce what they're fed. An amp has to be able to comfortably and controlfully power the speakers otherwise it'll sound awful.
Listen to the whole system. Forget about prices points somewhat. You may find a system that's half your intended budget that sounds so good that the extra money isn't worth it.
You've listed some very good equipment. A few brands you haven't mentioned are Naim, Linn, and Rega. Excellent sounding and built gear. They also make complete systems - amp, source, speakers, and wires. If you don't have a dealer nearby, stick to what you can hear relatively locally.
Also, McIntosh is very good gear that's worth every penny of its price. Forget about the people who say its not worth the money. Their priorities are out of whack. |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 15
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 01:45 am: |
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Stu,
Thanks! I haven't done much listening yet and that sounds like some VERY good advice. I haven't beat the bushes yet, but I'm worried about how much I'm going to have access to locally. Back to the road trip plan (or find the local scotch/speaker clutch)!
You've all helped a lot to get me straighened out about my 5.1 issues, given some very helpful suggestions, and at least a few good brands to focus on. Any advice from others would be most welcome. I'll let you all know where this all ends up at some point - might be a while yet.
I even noticed some nice Paradigm S8s (must be v.1 based on date) for almost half price on Audigon that am oddly attracted to right now.
Humm... |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9877
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 07:52 pm: |
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Rickr, the power issue is not what I meant back there, but more a quality issue.
I am late back here and I read the whole thread, and I agree that you are looking in the right direction with the stuff you afre looking at.
As for grouping Classe with Mac and Bryston, yes I agree, obviously.
HOWEVER, better value is to be had without Classe in the mix. Overpriced, unless you follow a rich guy around.
My stuff has not been trouble free, either. The preamp needed a recap for 300$ last year, 6 yrs old.
Beer(food) for thought. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9878
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 07:53 pm: |
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As for wnting a sub, thats up to you.
A Classe setup with the Sig's would not need one, for me. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1285
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 10:14 pm: |
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Im with Nuck. If this system is going to be two channel, and your buying Signature series Paradigms matched with either Classe, Bryston or Mac? Skip on the sub definitely IMO. It just isn't needed. |
Bronze Member Username: Jazzman71
Phoenix,
AZ
USA
Post Number: 82
Registered: Dec-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 11:50 pm: |
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Rick, you have some good advice above. Stu's points are good ones, especially about the synergy of components made for one another. And get over the sub already. You must be a bass player. LOL.
And BTW, there was a really nice Bryston 4B SST that just went on Audiogon for $1450 that had 12 or so years of warranty left on it. [Did you buy it and not tell us?] Ciao, and keep us posted. |
Bronze Member Username: Jazzman71
Phoenix,
AZ
USA
Post Number: 83
Registered: Dec-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:46 am: |
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Rick, I did get far enough in your posting--sorry.
"Since I'm starting from scratch for equipment on this system, don't you think the decision on which speakers to use would be the first thing to address? (which is where this forum sort of started out - but had to sort out droping both the audio 5.1 requirements and the HT 5.1 requirement to get back to just stereo or 2.1 audio)."
No--C B Lo.
"Another issue here might be whether the audio setup moves out of the family/HT room into another smaller room (11x12). Wouldn't a smaller room increase the effective base response of the speakers?"
Ask yourself what you would do with these great big speakers in this den or bedroom? The CD player, OTOH would work fine regardless of where it is. With HT out, if your budget is $10K, I would budget about $2-3K for source gear (CD + TT). You can get some decent gear for both and stay under $3K. Then, go listen to some played through downstream equipment that is comparable to what you want to spend. After you are satisfied that the source gear works with your budget and the downstream gear you are looking at, buy it.
Then, look to the preamp/amp combo. Decide how much power you really need. Here is where you need to consider amp power and other factors versus speaker characteristics. Others on this forum can help you immensely in this regard. I would budget about $4K for this combo in a $10K system.
Speakers are last. Get some quality headphones and ponder the speakers for awhile. H_ll by then you might know where they are going. And never forget the WAF. If you don't know what that is, read up my man.
*[OK, Nuck, you are free to convince Rick to power up now.]
Cheers. |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 16
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 06:44 pm: |
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Niel (et al),
I'm actually a guitarist and a drummer, but I've always liked songs like Imigrant Song, I Don't Need No Doctor, Barbara O'Riely that the first 8 bars or so sound like there's a base player until the base kicks in and nocks you off your feet.
The WAF is very interest in my case...
First let me say to Nick_K that if he hasn't checked this out, he had better start buying gear before the wedding and not after.
Actually, my wife's pretty accomodating other than she doesn't like loud, base, or drums and doesn't want the whole house full of speakers. The smaller room I was mentioning has my drum set and my Marshall JVM-410 with a 4-12 bottom - luckily mostly on the other side of the house from the main living and sleeping areas. Also, I'm lucky she's not hung up on spending money as long as other things also get bought in the balance (sorta of like you get your baby if you als buy some bath water to go with it). We're negotiating about the family room layout because it's like to be the only room were I can get enough separation between the speakers and still have some distance for the listner. Probably will get interesting at some point. The headphone idea would be right up her alley.
I've never owned a sub so I know there are speakers that have enough base, just don't know what the smaller Sigs might sound like with proper setup. Actually, I was sorta feeling that way about my KLH's (which have a 12" woofer) until I kicked the base EQ up just a tad on my receiver (again a better amp would probably make loads of difference). I'll know more once I audition some more stuff.
Nuck, I'm wondering what Sig's are you assuming in the setup? The S2/S4/S6 or S8 - you might be saying any of the above - but curious if you were assuming a bigger tower or would trust the S2s with the proper front end.
Neil, your allocation across the components is helpful. About 10 appends ago, I was realizing that if I'm buying used, it gets sorta hard to figure out what you would budget anyway since you don't know how cheap you'll find it or whether you'll buy something you weren't quite planning - but perhaps I can just assume 60% off and go from there.
Your sequence of purchasing is interesting - especially the headphone part.
Anyone ever look at http://www.audioclassics.com/
Lot's of stuff - didn't mention it above so wonder any negative feedback (to use eBay terminology).
Stu - I also looked at PMC. Were you thinking something like the GB1, FB1, OB1, EB1? Any of the actives make sense and do you like the digital transmission stuff.
Thanks again all. |
Bronze Member Username: Jazzman71
Phoenix,
AZ
USA
Post Number: 85
Registered: Dec-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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"We're negotiating about the family room layout because it's like to be the only room were I can get enough separation between the speakers and still have some distance for the listner. Probably will get interesting at some point. The headphone idea would be right up her alley."
I'm setting mine up in the finished basement, because that's where I can listen without scheduling it around American Idol and the Oscars. My amp has a fantastic headphone amp built in. It takes the pressure of buying new speakers off, and I can just look for the right ones at the right price at my leisure. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2541
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 01:05 pm: |
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Rick,
Which PMC tower depends on how the size and layout of your room, how much power you have to drive them (although they're pretty easy to drive), and your budget. The right one depends on these factors.
The actives can make sense. They're not prefect, just like anything else. Instead of running speakers cables, you'll run interconnects (XLR I believe). They'll sound better due to their construction. You'll have to plug the speakers into an outlet. But, actives can simplify things in some regards - the amp is perfectly matched to the speaker. You won't need to buy amps, just a pre-amp. In my limited experience with active hifi speakers (not PA speakers) they generally sound better to my ears.
That doesn't mean you'll like PMCs active or passive speakers, just throwing out options and pros and cons. |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 17
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 04:28 pm: |
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I just bumped into a pair of new black PMC OB1's on demo on Audiogon.
$3850 Demo Discount (Full warranty)
$5650 New at Discount
$6899 New List
I'm thinking about taking them in spite of the discussion so far.
The EB1s are $14000 new, $11000 at discount and from what I've read could handle a small ampitheater so probably will not got there - but the look really cool.
The seller's a dealer in NJ. He says he really likes them with Bryston BP-25/4B-SST and Bryston CD player. Said he's got CD's that are better but you'd have to get into the above $5K range vs the $2295 for the Bryston.
Any thoughts on analog vs DAC on the CD? |
Bronze Member Username: Rick_r
Post Number: 19
Registered: Mar-08
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| Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 01:53 am: |
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Found out the PMCs are OB1s and not OB1i. Think I'll let these go for now...
I moved my CD question over to the CD forum under
'CD Quality - DAC Now or DAC Later / Bryston BCD-1' |
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