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Thread: Rotel RMB-1075 vs NAD272 vs Bryston 3B.....NADT763 vs H/K 645. War at my place. |
    
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1197
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 04:46 pm: |
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Tonight I have a couple buddies coming over for some scotch, beer, wine, more beer and food. They are bringing some mint gear down for me to sell and we are going to have the battle of the amps.lol. Six people listening. I will post the outcome. |
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Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6272
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 05:43 pm: |
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May the best gear win....and survive!! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9804
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 06:33 pm: |
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I get the impression that the reviews will be more varied as the night goes on... |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Wisconsin
Post Number: 680
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 06:35 pm: |
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I'm hoping the gear all survives as the night goes on... |
Silver Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 656
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 06:52 pm: |
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I'm thinking Big-B will come out on top. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1198
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 07:18 pm: |
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Their arriving now. lol Don't worry I don't even like finger prints on my stuff. I will keep it safe. |
Silver Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 661
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 07:21 pm: |
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I'm the same way Nick. Try that with a 5 year old and a just starting to crawl 9 month old. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6276
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 07:26 pm: |
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That's why the ads say "kept in a kid free and smoke free home"...there is a reason why that language is effective!!! |
Silver Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 663
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 07:28 pm: |
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Yeah, having kids I can totally understand how that would be a big plus. |
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Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6279
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 08:04 pm: |
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Sniff sniff...is that Nick's amp burning up that I'm smelling...whew no it's one of his buddy's. |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1104
Registered: May-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 09:00 pm: |
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David,
I have went through my 6 kids, Brady bunch kind of equation, and did not have really good gear. Just flat out could not afford it.
Now I have my 5 year old grand-daughter living with us for the school year. Yep, lost a stylus on my Linn (it now sits 20 inches higher on a different rack) and recently had to put the enclosures back on my Gallo's after I vacuum sucked one of the caps back out. She's 5 so no grief given to her. I will take her 7 X 24 with whatever happens. There are only so many 7 X 24's she will be 5 and with us before going back to mama. The gear will survive her, I hope. |
Gold Member Username: Mike3
Wylie,
Tx
USA
Post Number: 1105
Registered: May-06
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 09:02 pm: |
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Art, I think I might be smelling the "green with envy" when Nick's pals get slammed by his Bryston, unless he is handicapping. LOL |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6280
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 09:06 pm: |
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Never know Mike....Bryston ain't everyone's cup-o-tea...although I don't see anyway possible that it couldn't whip the NAD and Rotel.... |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9807
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 09:08 pm: |
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I wish I could have taken one amp out of storage to contribute! |
Silver Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 664
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 11:12 pm: |
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6 kids. Holy crap. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6284
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 10:36 am: |
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Is the amp still breathing...results man results!!! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9809
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 05:25 pm: |
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No kidding, David. It's quite a story!
Did y'all survive?
What blew up first?!? |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1199
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 06:50 pm: |
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Alright, just so everyone knows, what I am about to say does not reflect my recent feeling towards certain brands. It was absolutely anonymous in almost every comparison amongst 6 people. Three people that were into audio, three people that didn't have a clue.
Source were Rega Apollo for music. Sony BDP-S1 blu-ray for movies.
1.) NAD T763 vs H/K 645.
-4 out of 6 prefer NAD in Surround Sound.
-6 out of 6 prefer NAD in Two Channel Listening.
-6 out of 6 prefer NAD as a two channel pre amp.
NAD Wins.
Let me just begin to say that I was a bit shocked at how poor the H/K was for two channel listening. Brutal, absolutely brutal. I actually want to hook it up again sometime when I am by myself and see if the thing was in some sort of sound mode that was just bad. In surround sound it was great I thought, sounded like a typical H/K. Very mellow midrange with "squared off" highs and decent low end. The panel claim to hear more "surround sound" from the NAD, with a fuller sound. The panel claimed that the NAD smashed the H/K in two channel listening. Big time. Again, I am going to do more testing with the H/K in two channel though, something couldn't have been right. I will post back with my thoughts on it.
Rotel RMB-1075 vs NAD C272.
6 out of 6 prefer NAD in two channel listening.
5 out of 6 prefer Rotel in a Surround sound enviroment.
1 out of 6 claimed they couldn't hear a difference in surround sound environment.
We will call it a Tie. The NAD did better at what it was built for, and the Rotel was better for what it was built for.
I had very high hopes for the Rotel when I first seen it. Big, mean, and heavy. Looked like a solid contender indeed. I had thought for sure that the panel would have completely prefered it against the NAD. Well sorta... I, and the panel were completely shocked by its dull sound when listening to the likes of Jack Johnson and Diana Krall, and many others. When the NAD was put back in, the panel all had that *ahhhh thats better* sense of emotion. The sound was fuller and more alive. There almost seemed to be a small gap in the music somewhere with the Rotel. Again, totally shocked how lifeless the Rotel was with music. Then we put the Rotel back in for a movie comparison. It was like the Rotel grabbed the NAD by the nuts and said "your in my territory now". Explosions and loud areas of the movies were now more clear and detailed. Very Neutral and detailed sound the Rotel now possessed. When a movie kicked into a scene with loud music to it, again the NAD prevailed, but overall, the "Surround sound" amp of the Rotel truly kicked some butt in what it was built to do. I am sure the two channel Rotel's possess more "pazaz" for music listening. Overall my hated thoughts against Rotel were diminished.
Rotel RMB-1075 vs Bryston 3B
6 out 6 prefer Bryston 3B for Music.
5 out of 6 prefer Bryston in Surround sound enviroment.
1 out of 6 prefer the Rotel in Surround sound enviroment.
Bryston 3B Wins.
lol...This comparison for music wasn't even close. The Bryston made the Rotel sound like the biggest piece of crap power amp...Words can't explain it. The Bryston was clearer, faster, more inspiring, more musical, and seemed to have way way way more Grunt. Both Amps are rated at 120 watts per channel but the Bryston sounded like it was 3 times more powerful. Again though, the Rotel picked up its butt and got the move on when watching a movie scene. This amp truly is a good performer at what it was suppose to be doing. I would never ever recommend this amp for anybody wanted something for music. Not even for bridging it(Don't even think you can). But for a system strictly for movies, hell I would buy it, as it is very good. For movies however the clarity of the Bryston, even only powering the two main speakers, seemed to open detail up slightly beyond the capability of the Rotel(even when its powering all 5 speakers). Music scenes just exploded into the room with the Bryston, and key details were better. Remembering a scene from Black Hawk Down on Blu-Ray in Uncompressed PCM audio. In the scene where the helicopters first fly over the boarders of Africa(or wherever they are) you can actually hear the blades in the propellers with the Bryston. Where as the Rotel you just heard a typical "helicopter noise".
NAD C272 vs Bryston 3B
4 out of 6 prefer the Bryston over the NAD
2 out of 6 claim they could not hear a difference between the two.
4 out of 6 prefer the Bryston over the NAD in Surround sound enviroment.
2 out of 6 claim they couldn't hear a difference.
Now for the people that couldn't tell a difference, I explained to them, The C272 is going at full tilt while the Bryston is going to be held back do to having a NAD in front of it. Again though, to majority of the ears the Bryston was more clear, open and detailed. The timing was better as well. Now surprisingly the NAD held up very well, but was eventually out classed specially when the Bryston was opened up. And low to medium volumes the Bryston seemed a bit better, but when both amps were pushed the Bryston just seemed to pull away with the victory. My Wife claimed she could clearly hear that the Bryston was better in our setup than the NAD now. The Bryston and NAD comparison kinda reminded me of that one year Lance Armstrong was racing side by side a opponent through the mountain course and allowed the guy to stay with him for about Half the course. At the Half way point when the course was about to get hard, Armstrong looked back at the Swiss and said, OK this is where you eat my dust. The Bryston of course is Lance.LOL!!! Overall the Bryston was the clear winner, but the NAD held up better than I had thought it was going to.
Overall Ratings:
Excellent
Very Good
Good
Satisfactory
Poor
NAD T763-Excellent for Surround
-Good for Music
H/K 645 -Very Good for Surround
-Poor for Music(will do more testing)
Rotel RMB 1075 -Excellent for Surround
-Satisfactory for Music
NAD C272-Good for Surround
-Very Good for Music
Bryston -Excellent for Surround
-Excellent for Music |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1200
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 06:53 pm: |
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Pics of the "Extra's" after testing.
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Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6298
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 07:10 pm: |
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Very cool Nick...much fun was had I guess. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1201
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 07:28 pm: |
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It was very fun Art.
I just re-hooked up the H/K just as a Pre with the Bryston. Made sure all DSP modes were off and Surround Modes were off. Still no good, Very "Electronic" sounding. Just doesn't sound real. I actually prefer the Pioneer Elite's for music. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6300
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 07:52 pm: |
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Yeah my Yammie is as good for music (not good). I have no idea what the reviewers were smoking when they rated my AVR so high for both movies and music....oh well. As a pure AVR it does impress me for the under $400 I paid for it...now to add a good matching set of speakers and a good HT sub. I love my REL sub but it ain't an HT sub and I don't use it for music anymore...hmm. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1203
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 08:00 pm: |
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REL subs sure are sweet. Yeah there are only a few companies these days that are making A/V receivers that still perform well for two channel listening. Well for A/V receivers that is. I was totally surprised by the performance of this 1500 dollar H/K, or lack there of. I won't be recommending them anymore. On the upside my liking of Rotel has went up quite a bit.lol. |
Silver Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 667
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 08:02 pm: |
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Excellent write-up Nick! Thanks.
I had a dealer recently explain just how good the Bryston 4B was for HT. He described the scene in the Matrix where the helo shoots up the office. With most amps the chain gun just turns into a compressed mash of gunfire, whereas with the Bryston you hear each round of the chain gun without the amp running out steam.
That description alone made me want one. |
Silver Member Username: Dmitchell
Ottawa,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 668
Registered: Feb-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 08:03 pm: |
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Oh yeah, I'm surprised at the H/K results. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6302
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 08:28 pm: |
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I had a full Rotel HT at one time with a Rotel AVR and separate Rotel power amp for the fronts. I used a set of Paradigm Studio 40's in the front and Studio 20's in the rear. Had the Paradigm Active Reference center channel...easily the best sounding center I've heard. Had a PW2200 sub...let me tell you it was the best and most balanced HT I've ever heard...still to this day. If could recapture that I would, but not at the expense of my Rega 2 channel setup. Someday..... |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1204
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 08:43 pm: |
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David- Totally agree with the Bryston description. And I too was surprised as any by the H/K. I just sat there scratching my head.
Art- Wicked HT setup. I bet it did quit well at 2 channel listening too. The Paradigm Center channels to this day are some of the smoothest I have heard, specially once you hit the Studio line like you had. That PW2200 slams hard and could always be used as a second coffee table.lol It is massive. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6304
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 09:14 pm: |
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Yeah I was using the same performance modified Rotel RCD971 that I have in my second system now for a cd player and the movie duties were being handled by an upper end Marantz DVD player...it was killer. That PW2200 shook the walls hard! Making me anxious to start working on the HT...oh well no money now...darn! |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1205
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 09:48 pm: |
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lol. Once I have more space, I too dream of two separate hardcore systems. Something for us to look forward to though Art. Keep us sane.lol. |
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_id
Chicago
Usa
Post Number: 218
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 02:02 am: |
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Seemed like the C272 acquitted itself quite well. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1206
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:09 am: |
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It surprised us all a bit ID. The guy who owned the Rotel was aw shocked. He took it home with him and left me with the Rotel to sell. I have always liked the amp for the money, but now I just like it period. The performance of the C272 for 800 dollars CDN, 650 US is just insane. I don't own one anymore ID, but I would still recommend it to anyone looking for the best performance for the money. |
Bronze Member Username: 70chevelle
Post Number: 37
Registered: Sep-06
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:10 am: |
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Nick K - I would be interested to hear a little more detail in how the HK sounded. I, too, have had terrible luck with my AVR 247 in 2 channel mode. (So much so, that I went to a seperate 2 channel system). In my theater for surround sound, it's fine, but it's like Jekyl & Hyde when I go to 2 channel. Great write-up. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1208
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:30 am: |
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Totally agree Thom T. I have now hooked up the H/K645 on top of the NAD for an A/B test three times. And have come to the conclusion that this A/V receiver is horrible at two channel listening. When we started Saturday night, I never played a single note through my setup. I hooked up the H/K laying on top of a towel on the NAD. First thing I did was just use the H/K as a Pre amp with the Bryston 3B, and Rega Apollo as the source. I put in Jack Johnson. I got about 10 seconds into the first track and, myself, could clearly hear how bad it was right away. I of course, kept my mouth shut and let my friends listen. My Wife spoke up first and basically told the owner of the H/K that it sounded like crap.LOL! To the panel at this time it was still ok. We listened to a few more tracks from other cd's, and then plugged the NAD back in. It was by far the biggest difference of the night. The music now sounded more real, and less like it was coming from a piece of electronic gear. Fuller, way more tight bass, and symbols now sounded like symbols and such. What I found the H/K to sound like I could describe as "Electical". You totally forgot the fact that you were listening to music and now thought you were just listening to a electronic piece of equipment. As the H/K got turned up louder it became worse, totally losing control of the notes and becoming messy. The highs became "tin" sounding, the bass was weak, and the midrange had a big "hole" in it. It was a totally different story in surround as the unit did a good job. Ive have always been the first guy to recommend H/K products, but I was totally blown away at just how bad it was for music. No A/V receiver is ideal for music Thom T, so going to a two channel setup was the smart choice. But there is A/V receivers out there (not many) that are still built around a two channel philosophy, and this clearly wasn't one of them. Cheers. |
Bronze Member Username: 70chevelle
Post Number: 38
Registered: Sep-06
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:48 am: |
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Thanks Nick. Your description is pretty close to what I heard on my receiver. According to my owners manual, for true analogue stereo mode, I need to eliminate the sub and turn the "tone" off. I assumed that when I did this the crossovers in the OSD would be inactive, but they are not, and the lowest is 40hz. (I could hear the difference as I changed the crossovers in the OSD, while in stereo mode, no DSP) I figured something wasn't right when Norah Jones vocals made me cringe at moderate volume levels. |
Bronze Member Username: Lamcam
Stanton,
Ca
Usa
Post Number: 28
Registered: Nov-07
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:46 pm: |
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I am not supprised with the H/K. I had the AVR635 for few months and I couldn't belive how bad with 2 channel music performing! |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2729
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 01:02 pm: |
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Thanks so much Nick. It's when I read things like this that I realise I'm still selling good value for money items...
HK worse than Pioneer? Ouch. That's got to hurt. |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1209
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 02:10 pm: |
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Frank- NP. Well maybe not worse than Pioneer.lol. Still shocked myself by it all though. You sell a lot of good stuff Frank. From entry to the high end stuff. I would be super broke if I were in your situation.lol.
Locqho- Definitely.
Thom T - I too unplugged the sub and turned all DSP and surround modes completely off. It made it a bit better, but still bad/not enjoyable. I couldn't imagine Norah Jones sounding bad.lol. That just isn't acceptable. |
New member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 9
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 09:34 am: |
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i just bought a hk 3480. i used to run my speakers on a kenwood before that. when you listen to individual sounds on the hk it scores higher but when it puts all these sounds together its very harsh on the ears. am thinking of getting rid of it and buying the nad 372. any comments? cant really listen to any of these on my speakers before purchase. live in africa |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1216
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 09:08 pm: |
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Do it...buy anything..lol. |
New member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 10
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:17 am: |
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i see you really put a lot of thought into that suggestion nick. lol |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1218
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 05:01 pm: |
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lol im playing Francis. To my ears the 372 would blow the doors off that H/K unit. I would pick on up if I were you and do a A/B comparison and get rid of the one you that sounds the worse to you. From what you are hearing from the H/K, a lot of integrated amps out there that you would like over it. Thats what I meant by my last comment. In my T763/635 comparison the NAD was the clear winner, by a mile. That wasn't just my opinion either. |
Bronze Member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 11
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 05:03 am: |
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will try getting rid of the hk. but its difficult around here. will let you know how the nad sounds if i get it |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1229
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 07:59 am: |
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Awesome Francis- Keep us posted.
Sell the H/K on the internet. |
Bronze Member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 12
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:34 am: |
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hows it nick, managed to sell the hk. will go and listen to the nad c372. i've got the following options (listed in preference of cost implication)
1. nad T163 preamp + yamaha P2500S power amplifier (professional). have the yamaha with me
2. nad c372
3. nad T163 preamp + nad c272 - reason for this option is flexibility if at some point in time i would go for surround sound
my highest priority is stereo music - good clean life-like sound |
Bronze Member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 14
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:52 am: |
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by the way i;ve got JBL L890's 250w x 2 rms continuous at 8 ohms |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1252
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 11:43 am: |
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Sounds fun Francis. I like the T163 for the flexibility. But up to your ears. Either one of those combo's IMO would hammer the H/K combo. Let us know what u decide on.Cheers. |
Bronze Member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 16
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 11:52 am: |
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so you think the yamaha amplifier would do the job? |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1253
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 03:21 pm: |
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To be honest Francis, I have never heard any professional line amp by Yamaha before so I can't really comment. Their pro stuff, if I can remember use to be pretty heavy duty, but not sure if it still is or not. I guess try it out and see what you think. FWIW on my lunch today for fun I placed the H/K 635 back on top of my T763 and played multiple tracks in an hours time, using it just as a pre amp. Again, thought it was horrible. This thing was a 1500 dollar receiver at one time too.Brutal. Im going to sell it for like 200 shipped. |
Bronze Member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 18
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 05:47 am: |
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i did use the yamaha with a professional mixer. when played loud it didn't distort or anything but throughout the volume range it lacked a sharpness. i guess the nad would sort that out |
Bronze Member Username: Afj
Gaborone
Botswana
Post Number: 19
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 05:57 am: |
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dont ask me what i was doing with a professional amp and mixer. i guess it was part of the learning curve. hadnt discovered this forum then |
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