Audio Context

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12570
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:11 pm:

.

"Jan, measurements won't tell us if something sounds good or bad to anyone necessarily, but it will tell us if something is *wrong* or if the product is on the right track towards accomplishing its goal."

Fine! Then stop wagging them in my face like they are the only thing that matters. They are tools for the designer. And one of them - "Jan, tell me what this graph means" - doesn't mean a thing.

Got it?

.

Relevant Product Info

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12571
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:14 pm:

.

"Let's say that you hear a Rega and a Linn CD player. You hear that the Rega is clearly better, blows away the Linn in very specific ways. Someone else compares them and comes to the exact opposite conclusion. A third person isn't sure if there's a difference at all.

What does that mean? Anything?"

It means they all have diferent priorities. That's what it means. If their priorities are based on a personal reference and consistent from one judgement to the next, that's what counts. Not a graph!

Got it?

.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12572
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:15 pm:

.

"It could very well be that a Rega Planet or Apollo blows away an NAD C542, but if it does, I'd like to see it proven as I had no such experience as a dealer."

You can't hear!

"Let me ask you this hypothetical."

You are trying to dance on the head of a pin, fishy, and you ain't no angel.

DBT DBT DBT DBT DBT DBT

Go away, fishy!

.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 151
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:44 pm:

Jan, for someone who claims to know so much, you sure can't answer very many simple questions.

Chris H

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 273
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:45 pm:

"Well, Chris, I kinda remember everyone talking about NAD getting "blown away" or "only hearing music for the first time *after* NAD" and "it's not even close" etc, etc. "

Yep, their experiences. If you have different then state your experience, don't tell people they are WRONG !

"Let's say you took a DBT to prove you were right. "

Right about what ? Right about what I like best ? I know what I like best. I'm not trying to be right about anything other than I know what I hear, and what I like. And yes I could pick my DAC out over the NAD it replaced, and have. So now what ? Hmmm ? Would the world come to a freakin' end if someone actually heard differences in audio components ? Is that what you're afraid of ? Because then you couldn't sell just anything, could you ? And then what ? You couldn't tell your Customers that different gear would sound different, and they might like it better/worse than your gear so they better shop around. That every problem was room and speaker issues. Heck, I don't know why you even sell electronics if they all sound the same. How do you live with yourself ? If you want to think this through John I'm more than willing but YOU have to think it through too.

"My beliefs aren't sacred to me"

Worse, you have a vested interest in having them. Don't you. I think that's it, isn't it John.

"I'm saying that most differences are subtle, subjective and not inherently better, just different most of the time."

See, and then you go and admit that there ARE differences. And, again, the degree is up to the perceiver isn't it John. We already agreed on that so let's not tread that ground again. Subtle to you perhaps, but maybe not to them ? Hmmmm?

You're a human contradiction John. And round and round we go.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 153
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:00 pm:

Chris, not saying they're wrong exactly, just that it comes across as such an exaggeration that one wonders if there's even any truth at all buried in there. I have customers with really good hearing and they are very cautious and deliberate when describing differences, but I find that they are very astute and hear the things I hear. They don't use terms like "blow away". And they can describe subtle differences in great detail. Newbies use terms like "blow away".

As for my beliefs being vested, that's clearly not true. I could make more money if I were to go against all my belief and experiences and just BS the crap out of people using marketing terms such as PRaT or "faster" to describe expensive European machinery, but I'd rather forego that kind of sale and stick to reality.

And as i say, we have the difference between a $200 and $300 speaker and it is provably greater than the difference between a $200 CD player and a $20,000 CD player, no matter how much hyperbole is attached. That is provable. The differences in electronics are interesting, occasionally noteworthy, but attaching big 'action' words to them does a huge disservice to the hobby and generally keeps people from getting involved at all because they think it's populated by nut jobs going on and on about the dramatic difference of nothing.

Chris H

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 274
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:11 pm:

Alrighty then. So let's recap.

1) You don't like the words people are using to describe the differences they hear.

2) Your beliefs that NAD is pretty much as good as it gets isn't a conflict of interest, even though you sell, you know, NAD.

3) Speakers sound more different than cd players.

Does this sum it up. Cuz if it does I'm pretty sure you could have gotten that message out more succintly. The first statement is silly. The second one you have no credibility. And all I can conjure up for the third one is a big "who cares".

stryvn

Silver Member

Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 705
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:17 pm:

lol "You're a human contradiction John. And round and round we go."

But he has customers with really good hearing. And they're cautious. He must know what he's talking about.

outside of his "action" word phobia, he seems normal to me.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 155
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:22 pm:

1. I don't like when people use hyperbole to describe small, possibly non-existent differences.

2. I think Masters is as good as it gets, as is YBA, C-J, BAT and a whole bunch of really genuinely good stuff. That people can or claim to hear differences between them is not terribly meaningful as to what is 'better' nor is it likely to be anything at all more useful than personal preference or belief.

3. Speakers are several orders of magnitude more different than CD players. In fact, when people ask me what the most important aspects are, I say speaker, room, setup in no particular order, followed by amps, preamps, and CD players being dead last these days.

4. You have the same credibility with me as I have with you.

5. If you care so little, why the anger and frustration?

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 156
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:29 pm:

Styvn, i get the sarcasm.

Not all of my customers hear all that well, nor claim to, but many start to very quickly a week or two after getting a better system. Suddenly, they notice that Bose cubes are bright and thin with one notey bass or their old speakers are dull and lifeless and muddy. I have some customers that use the hyperbole stuff and I just smile and nod. But the guys that have really gifted hearing, the ones that undestand they're talking in small differences or that you can't "audition" an amp or CD player in an unknowns system, those are the guys I really respect, send gear home with them to get their opinions, listen to their experiences acutely. When someone comes in and tells me their harsh, fatiguing speaker sounds that way because of their good, moderately expensive CD player, well, that isn't going to do much for me and we just try to ignore that and go straight for the actual problem, whether they want to or not. Oh, I'll offer up a high-end CD player to show that it's not the problem, but I'll also tell them where the real problem is. So, when people use hyperbole to describe small differences or insist that problems with their speakers, rooms or setup are coming from bit players in the system, I don't pay them much heed. They can have their opinions and beliefs all they want, but they're just off the rails and will remain that way until they accept a dose of reality.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 157
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:33 pm:

And any of you that want can prove I'm wrong with a DBT any time you like. I would just prefer to wager some money on the outcome, that's all, otherwise the result wouldn't be that interesting or unexpected for me.

Gold Member

Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1248
Registered: Nov-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:50 pm:

I don't understand the point of arguing who is right and who is wrong. I always thought that hifi was about the music and the emotional connection that the system evokes in the individual. If you accept that to be the case, which I would assume that most if not all audio enthusiasts at one time or another would admit to, than this is a very personal thing. Why is there so much gear in the market right now? Why are there so many successful and noteworthy designs on the market? You have the traditional box, planars, horn loaded speakers, SS and tube electronics, LP, CD, SACD. I am sure we can make a never ending list of manufacturers that have made great gear at some point. With all that gear and unique designs there are bound to be numerous ways to match these pieces to a person's particular desires.

Now I used to sell A/V gear and BB in the Magnolia section. I know, not hifi at all, maybe midfi. I have always tried to sell the ML or Vienna Acoustics gear whenever I had the chance, but not all people care for or want to hear anything. If a person liked the Bose system, so be it. If a person did not hear a difference between the $300/pr speakers and the $500/pr speakers so be it. You guys have so much extra energy to waste on these useless arguments. This is a forum. We are here to have discussions and dialogue about things we are interested in, not have a 4 year-old's argument.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 158
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:05 pm:

Christopher, that's the point, the problem occurs when the insults and personal attacks begin. People do enough insulting of other people's gear as is, and I can deal with that, but the personal insults instead of discussion are the real problem. Rather than take on any of my arguments directly, most people just ignore what I say and attack me personally.

As I said, my main mission it to get people out of low-fi and step up the ladder just a couple of notches, so all this talk about how one good products 'blows away' another product is rather silly. It's hard to argue 'well it's all personal preference' when people talk about 'blowing away' instead of 'I prefer'.

stryvn

Silver Member

Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 706
Registered: Dec-06

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:13 pm:

Yea, Christopher. He's really here to help and share and get people out of low-fi.

As long as everyone agrees with him and buys NAD. lol.

And nobody uses "action" words.

unbridled id

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 295
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:17 pm:

"And one of them - "Jan, tell me what this graph means" - doesn't mean a thing".

How do you know, you didn't even know what the graph represented? Or as you so eloquently put it "How in the "F" should I know"?

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 159
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:32 pm:

I don't care whether people here by NAD or not, but this whole 'I quit NAD like i quit smoking' attitude is kinda ridiculous and egocentric.

unbridled id

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 296
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:50 pm:

John, (as you well know) some folks are more susceptible to marketing tactics by audio companies than others. With an expensive piece of equipment their words, which may have meant little before, now carry much more weight to some.

Gold Member

Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1249
Registered: Nov-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:00 pm:

Bose rings a bell.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 160
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:10 pm:

A lot of the techniques used by Bose are also used very successfully by high-end companies. A lot of the price in many brands is there primarily to increase the perceived performance. As Cadillac found out long ago, the product has to be more expensive to be perceived as better. People naturally assume that a $200/hour person is better than someone who charges $100/hour, even if it's not the case. A nicer case = better sound for many. More expensive to build = better for many. Notice how high end companies talk about the *expense* of building things, rather than the final quality. Or how they box themselves into a design corner and then claim superiority by getting back out of the box.

Gold Member

Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1250
Registered: Nov-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:14 pm:

What would be your examples of designers/designs putting themselves in corners and such that you describe?

Chris H

Silver Member

Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia
Canada

Post Number: 275
Registered: Jul-07

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:21 pm:

"Rather than take on any of my arguments directly, most people just ignore what I say and attack me personally. "

What argument are you making John ? That's the problem. What are you saying ? There aren't big differences in electronics ? Ok, but some people think there are....or at least significant to them. If you can't deal with that, that's too bad. But there isn't much left to discuss really.

The body of documentation of comparisons and differences in electronics is staggering. Go tell ALL those people they are full of it. Once you convince a few thousand reviewers, professionals, etc that they are wrong, come back and let us know how you made out. At least admit that the only people who think there are differences aren't just on this board. We're not the only ones who think that way.

Go spread the word John. Start with all of the major publications with a Letter to the Editor or something. If that's your only "argument" then you've made it here. Try elsewhere.

Nout

Silver Member

Username: Nout

Post Number: 119
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:22 pm:

I don't care whether people here by NAD or not, but this whole 'I quit NAD like i quit smoking' attitude is kinda ridiculous and egocentric.

John, I somewhat share your sentiment.
I haven't upgraded, apart from a pair of speakers, in years and I most probably will live the rest of my life with the set I have now. Will get the amp and cd player fixed when they're starting to disfunction.

But Audio isn't a hobby for me, it is just an interest.
Every now and then I visit this forum, read and learn, accept or reject some odd ideas about tweaks for instance.
(I am definitely not a 'cable guy' and never heard improvements in treating discs with sprays etc.)

I think I agree with you on the part that speakers and room accoustics make the most difference, though I am not certain about it.
If the oppurtunity was there to do a blind test I certainly would be interested, I think my hearing is pretty good and it would be much fun to test some equipment.
Just as fun like the tests I did in ripping cd's in various compressing methods and various bitrates.
(I didn't hear significant improvements in bitrates higher than 160 kb/ps)
I like to read about Audio and do the ocassional tests myself.

Ocassionally that is, coming to think about it, only once or twice a year, mostly after visiting audio forums like Ecoustics.

Now for me audio is merely an interest, but for most posters in this thread audio is a lot more than that.
They're enjoying this hobby (maybe even a way of life) on a daily basis, it's part of their daily routine.

So John, what you're doing right now is basically telling them their hobby is worth jack sh*t.
Like you said: "you can get PRaT for cheap".
You can get it easily, without much effort.

These guys have invested a lot time, money and love in their system/hobby and you are basically telling them they're full of sh*t: PRaT doesn't exist and your systems are overpriced and not any better than the NAD's I sell.

Wouldn't you be annoyed the least?

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 161
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:23 pm:

B&W does this to rationalize kevlar. By stating up front that they want to achieve wide dispersion with a single large midrange, they are "forced" to use kevlar and FST. Or Vandersteen, by saying that only time/phase coherent will do, then they can go to great lengths talking about how they overcome the handicaps associated with first order crossovers, rather than simply using whatever design sounds best. Basically starting off with a self-imposed limitation, be it a size, a material, a design concept, then "overcoming" the limitations as though everyone else still suffers from it. This kind of thing is pretty common.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 162
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:28 pm:

Nout, I agree with you, it's a good observation. Of course, I happened on the NAD thread and, of course, had the same kind of reaction, people basically acting as though NAD is mediocre stuff compared to other things and therefore that what I do is basically full of sh*t. So, I started off with basically "are you sure? Can you prove it?" Not that they're necessarily wrong, but can they *prove* it. Maybe they can hear what I can't. These "huge" differences. But I hear a lot of flaws with 'audiophile' speakers that audiophiles can't seem to hear, so I feel as though the likelihood of someone proving that there are these huge differences are pretty small. And one of the reasons many people avoid the hobby is that people act as though their stuff is crap.

Gold Member

Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1251
Registered: Nov-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:32 pm:

Then where do you draw the line between setting a design goal and what you describe such as ML and planar design?

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12573
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:37 pm:

.

"People do enough insulting of other people's gear as is, and I can deal with that, but the personal insults instead of discussion are the real problem. "

Like "gullible"? In your estimation of a "gullible system", is the equipment "gullible" or was the buyer "gullible"? Must have been the equipment 'cause fishy wouldn't make no personal attacks. No, sir, no way!

Yikes! It's like watching a mosquito on the fly - one direction then the other - up then down then backwards. Anything but a straight forward path.

And that's not a personal attack, fishy, just an observation meant for those "gullible" system owners.

.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12574
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:40 pm:

.

"As I said, my main mission it to get people out of low-fi and step up the ladder just a couple of notches, so all this talk about how one good products 'blows away' another product is rather silly. It's hard to argue 'well it's all personal preference' when people talk about 'blowing away' instead of 'I prefer'."

It's called priorities, fishy. But you wouldn't know them from PRaT's. It's all the same to you - speakers and room, speakers and room, speakers and room, etc, etc, etc.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12575
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:40 pm:

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 163
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:42 pm:

Christopher, it's tough sometimes because ribbons and ESLs are bonafide, interesting technologies. Or, another example is talking about overcoming porting. Well, one *good* way is to use acoustic suspension. But that's too 'difficult', apparently.

Gold Member

Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1252
Registered: Nov-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:45 pm:

Maybe the ribbon/ESL was a bad example. I am just curious how you would determine a design is trying too hard to cover up short comings and a design that is making compromises for the best results.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12576
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:47 pm:

.

"Of course, I happened on the NAD thread and, of course, had the same kind of reaction, people basically acting as though NAD is mediocre stuff compared to other things and therefore that what I do is basically full of sh*t."

Apparently a lot of people think so.

"Maybe they can hear what I can't."

Apparently a lot of people can.

Can't you take a hint, fishy? George's approval's are at 28%. He thinks he's doing a great job!

.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 164
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:48 pm:

Jan, I think the guy with the 'gullible system' attacked me first.

My system, if I were to dare say it, has WAY more "PRaT" than most people will experience in their lives and uses extraordinary technology to achieve it. It's hooked up to a Sonos as both source and preamp. Could I arguably make the sound better with a C-J preamp and expensive CD player? Sure. But it kicks buttocks and takes prisoners. This with a source/preamp that probably would be ravaged by most 'audiophiles'. Doesn't matter, it rocks.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 165
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:53 pm:

Christopher, it's hard to explain, I guess, but what I'm saying is that the when a company "creates" a unique problem, then solves it with its special fix, and sells the fix as a demonstration of their superiority, that is what I'm talking about. B&W sells Kevlar rather than simply using a high-excursion 5" driver or dual mids or other ways of solving the same problem. Most engineers would and do simply take a different path to solve it. One of the best creative solutions to oil can resonances is to simply use a .75" aluminum tweeter instead of using exotic materials such as Be or VD carbon.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12577
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:56 pm:

.

"But I hear a lot of flaws with 'audiophile' speakers that audiophiles can't seem to hear, so I feel as though the likelihood of someone proving that there are these huge differences are pretty small."

So you're better at this that all the audiophile speaker designers in the world?!

Aww, c'mon, fishy, get some pride in what you do!

"And one of the reasons many people avoid the hobby is that people act as though their stuff is crap."

You mean like telling someone their system is "gullible"? No, wait, "crap", you tell them their system is "crap" and they were gullible enough to spend too much. Is that what you mean? Is that how you keep customers away? 'Cause it's sure workin' here.

Oh, and the stuff above, they can't hear it because you can't hear anything! They know what's real, fishy, and you obviously don't. You can't hear PRaT in the music so don't tell me you can hear what's wrong with an audiophile speaker. You look at a graph and decide what you're going to hear. If you could hear, this discussion would have been over the day you showed up on this forum.

.

Gold Member

Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1253
Registered: Nov-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:56 pm:

I see your point now. Point well taken at least on my end. I take it that you mean "take the simplest route to the same goal."

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 166
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:57 pm:

Hah, I suspected you were a wacky liberal 30 posts ago, Jan. You think and argue emotionally and illogically, like expensive solutions to simple problems and viciously attack anyone with whom you disagree. As opposed to being genuinely liberal, I mean.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 167
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:59 pm:

Christopher, yeah, I kinda believe in Achem's razor, but applied more broadly.

Silver Member

Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM
United States

Post Number: 168
Registered: Apr-08

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:01 pm:

Jan, I'm not 'better' than these other guys, but some of these guys are 'marketer/designers', not actual engineers. Engineers think and design differently.

Stephen M.

Gold Member

Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA
United States

Post Number: 1153
Registered: Apr-06

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:04 pm:

I didn't realize Occam let someone borrow his razor...

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12578
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:05 pm:

.

"Christopher, it's hard to explain, I guess, but what I'm saying is that the when a company "creates" a unique problem, then solves it with its special fix, and sells the fix as a demonstration of their superiority, that is what I'm talking about. B&W sells Kevlar rather than simply using a high-excursion 5" driver or dual mids or other ways of solving the same problem. Most engineers would and do simply take a different path to solve it. One of the best creative solutions to oil can resonances is to simply use a .75" aluminum tweeter instead of using exotic materials such as Be or VD carbon."

Total BS

Oil can resonance doesn't affect larger 5" drivers. Dual drivers present problems - and solutions - single drivers don't Oil can resonances are not the same as cone break up or high frequency ringing. Changing the diameter of the dome also affects the disparities in disperion between mid frequency driver and tweter, which changes the "in room" perception and even those measurements taken off axis.

fishy, you cannot pull one solution out of your butt and start wiping it all over creation. It's your finger that stinks when you do that.

You don't like companies creating problems only to solve them with their own technology? How about "soft clipping" from NAD. All their "peak power" BS is marketing creating by a problem they didn't want to solve correctly - build a good power supply.

.

Stephen M.

Gold Member

Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA
United States

Post Number: 1154
Registered: Apr-06

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:07 pm:

Ohh and uhh....the recording is by far going to have more impact upon what you hear than the room or the speaker.

unbridled id

Silver Member

Username: Unbridled_id

Chicago
Usa

Post Number: 297
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:08 pm:

Jan seems to have entered his manic phase today. It's ok Jan; later on tonight we can watch Matlock reruns.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12579
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:09 pm:

.

I see you assume a lot. I just posted, "George's approval's are at 28%. He thinks he's doing a great job!" If 72% of the people don't approve of his performance, there's got to be some conservative republicans in there too.

Stop assuming so you know so much, fishy, you know what they say about people who assume; "You're an @ss."

.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12580
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:10 pm:

.

fishy, don't you have a customer to go tell some lies to?