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Thread: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name. |
    
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 1
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 02:39 pm: |
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People always assume that high end high priced audio will be superior in every aspect to your standard receiver, this can be true when dealing with analog 2CH setups but in home theater it is not. High end companies either do a direct rebadged and sell it for a huge profit or they design their own but as you will see there is nothing high end about it.
Lexicon MC-12.
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/smr_41.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/smr_51.jpg[/img]
Here we see the Digital I/O Board "top" and Analog I/O Board "bottom" obviously they are in no way superior to how a receiver is built/designed. Obviously there will be no sonic improvements using a DSP/DAC since the high end does not use anything special or better then what is used in today's receivers so the difference would be in the analog section of the product. As you can see there is nothing superior about the analog section of a very expensive Lexicon MC-12.
[url]http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexicon/mc12/smr_images.html[/url]
Here is where I found the pictures.
Halcro SSP100/200.
The halcro uses the Vinci Labs Titan OEM SSP platform.
[url]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=973556[/url]
[url]http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18281&prevloaded=1&rid=0&SQ=0&s tart=0[/url]
In these threads we found out that they do infact use the titan platform.
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/untitled.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/c1_rear_577.jpg[/img]
As you can see by the back layout the halcro "top" and parasound "bottom" have the same layout and most of it is exactly the same. The halcro also uses the following DSP/DAC, Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56367 Audio DAC: ASAHI KASEI AK4395 The HDMI also has an Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56371.
Mcintosh MX135/136.
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/HPIM0710.jpg[/img]
The DSP system Mac uses.
[url]http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE%2D5[/url]
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/HPIM0691.jpg[/img]
The analog section for one channel.
[img]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/HPIM0634.jpg[/img]
This shows the power supply section of the mac, the two things I did like about the mac is the power section and the analog section when compaired to the lexicon. |
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Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9711
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 10:47 pm: |
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So connectivity and layout of the back panel is shared.
So common engines are used for decoding. I see a lot of different topology going on here, Bob, with ic's in llace of discrete routing going on.
I don't buy the story.
And the home theatre area can be found beyond this one.
I don't get the gist of the post. Oh, and welcome to the forum. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12178
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 12:57 am: |
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.
If they weigh the same, they are the same.
If one is heavier ... eh, not so much! |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1789
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 10:22 am: |
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There seems to be a number of these threads on the various A/V boards these days. |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 2
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 03:14 pm: |
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http://www.lexicon.com/image_library/RV5_rear_lo.jpg
http://www.harmankardon.com/back.aspx?prod=AVR%20745&cat=REC&sType=C&Region=USA& Country=US&Language=ENG&ImgName=AVR745B.jpg
The lexicon receiver is a direct rebadge of the HK.
[quote]So connectivity and layout of the back panel is shared.
So common engines are used for decoding. I see a lot of different topology going on here, Bob, with ic's in llace of discrete routing going on.
I don't buy the story.
And the home theatre area can be found beyond this one.[/quote]
No, I showed that the pre amp section of a very expensive Lexicon MC-12 is poor and no better then a receiver. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1791
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 04:03 pm: |
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Those are pretty damn similar, but given the fact that they're both Harman products, it doesn't surprise me much.
The H/K looks to actually have a few more bells & whistles tossed in as compared to the Lexicon.
Care to post a pic of the innards of the H/K and the Lexicon, that would better substantiate the re-badge claim. |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 3
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 05:04 pm: |
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http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=461&PN=2
This is from a lexicon forum.
Speculation from the previous RV-5 thread seems correct. The specs appear to match the H/K AVR-745.
http://www.lexicon.com/products/specs.asp?ID=26
http://www.harmankardon.com/specific...%20745&sType=C
These are lexicon owners talking about how the RV-5 is a rebadge of a HK.
Did you not read what I just posted? |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1792
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 05:21 pm: |
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Actually I did read what you just posted Bob, but did you not read what Jan wrote, "If they weigh the same, they are the same. If one is heavier ... eh, not so much!"
The Lexicon RV-5 weighs 39.7lbs, the H/K AVR-745 weighs in at 48lbs, what do you suppose accounts for the difference?
They may be similar, but they are not identical, and I don't pretend to know which sounds better. |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 4
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 06:24 pm: |
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http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=E NG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=AVR%20745&sType=C
That should fix it.
[quote]They may be similar, but they are not identical, and I don't pretend to know which sounds better.[/quote]
People on a lexicon forum state that the specs are the same and that it is a rebadge yet you disagree? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6091
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 07:01 pm: |
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Because we all know the genius it takes to post on the Lexicon forum?!?!
I don't think that Christopher is debating that they may have the same internal components however something must be different if there is an 8lb + difference in weight. That is a given...perhaps the genius' at the Lexicon forum have an explanation for that. |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Post Number: 644
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 07:04 pm: |
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That's a heavy badge....8.3 pounds. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1793
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 07:08 pm: |
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"People on a lexicon forum state that the specs are the same and that it is a rebadge yet you disagree?"
How dare I.
So what about that small issue of the different weights, wait...I forgot, the "people on a lexicon forum state that the specs are the same", so I'll have to ignore that minor discrepancy.
Like I said, produce the pics and let's see where this thread goes.
Welcome to eCoustics. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1794
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 07:29 pm: |
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http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28840
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40334
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-components/8905-lexicon-mc-1 2-high-end-processors-you-pay-name.html
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=107037&sid=f0e2e192b2e30ad7 9098d74e3b517cbb
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/140314/
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/notavail.asp
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=249874&rid=0&SQ=0#msg_249874
Like I said, "There seems to be a number of these threads on the various A/V boards these days." , now I know where they've been coming from. |
Silver Member Username: Shawnharman
Post Number: 156
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 09:15 pm: |
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man, looks like this guy likes to make his rounds doesn't he? |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 5
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 05:07 pm: |
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[quote]I don't think that Christopher is debating that they may have the same internal components however something must be different if there is an 8lb + difference in weight. That is a given...perhaps the genius' at the Lexicon forum have an explanation for that.[/quote]
What? The specs are the same, the amp section is the same. you might want to read up on most of the users on that forum that stated it was a rebadge because they know quite a bit. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1796
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 05:52 pm: |
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So I take it you're still working on those pics?
Look, we get it, Harman, like GM, VW, and other modern manufactures, develops products for its various brands using common platforms, and there can be a huge difference in price between models that share some, or even most, of the same parts.
Have you stared at those pics you linked to? I know you've noticed the similarities, but have you noticed the differences?
Given the substantial weight differences between the RV-5 & AVR-745, along with all those different connections, I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate this is not as simple as it's been made out to be.
What is surprising is that it's the H/K that's heavier? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12184
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 06:19 pm: |
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BS (an apt set of intials) - If this upsets you so, why don't you call Harman and ask what's up? Just what do you expect us to do about this? This is a global economy and things get made in the exact same plant with the exact same components with different names on the front all the time. It's been this way for years. Are you just now catching on to this? Where ya been, big guy?!
You seem to think that there is no difference between Lexicon just because they share parts. How ignorant of the two companies are you? If you bought a Chrysler Crossfire, you didn't own a Mercedes. And the value of the two products is not the same after five years time. Neither is the service. And it will not be the same after fifteen years time. And the Chrysler will always be a Chrysler and the Mercedes will always be the car people want. What part of that don't you get?
People buy Lexicons and Mercedes for lots of reasons. You seem to think it's because they use the same chip for their DAC's.
What part of this don't you get?
A savvy shopper can find some very good values by comparing products. But don't suggest HK and Lexicon are identical.
Is there some part of this you just don't get?
. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12185
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 06:25 pm: |
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I've got an old HK AV receiver that was made in the same plant as the top o' the line Marantz of the day. Looking at them you'd hardly be able to tell them apart with the top covers off. The HK makes power into a two Ohm load. The Marantz shutdown at four. The HK had lower distortion. The HK had more connectivity. The Marantz had a universal remote. The HK sold for $200 more.
So what?
I wanted the HK.
You're wasting your time here, BS.
. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2649
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 10:58 am: |
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The test specs for a Naim CD555 (£14000) and Naim CDS3 (£7000) are exactly the same. There is no measurable difference between the two. They sound appreciably different...
Furthermore, some of the specialist manufacturers combine forces with the chip manufacturers to producec certain chipsets. For example, Arcam's DVD players use a Vadis 888 chipset. This was co-developed by Vadis and Arcam over 3 years.
Regards,
Frank. |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 6
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 02:48 pm: |
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So no one can tell me why the MC-12 or any of the processors sound better, I thought as much.
[quote]The test specs for a Naim CD555 (£14000) and Naim CDS3 (£7000) are exactly the same. There is no measurable difference between the two. They sound appreciably different...[/quote]
I hope you did not spend that much money on a Naim player.
http://www.kumadesign.com/pix/NAIM/CD555/
http://www.kumadesign.com/pix/NAIM/CD555/555inside07.jpg |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12192
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 03:30 pm: |
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"So no one can tell me why the MC-12 or any of the processors sound better, I thought as much"
BS - You are a phucker!
No, by looking at pictures, we can't tell much of anything.
What part of this don't you get?!
. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1797
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 04:38 pm: |
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Bob, did you happen to buy an expensive component, only to find out that it shared architecture with a less expensive component?
I don't think anyone here gets your point?
What the ....heck do you expect to see inside a CD Player? A Receiver? A pair of Speakers? |
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10
Post Number: 1085
Registered: Jun-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 05:33 pm: |
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LOL!!! phucker..priceless. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2664
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:24 am: |
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Bob,
Have you heard one? Or don't you believe your own ears?
(Or are you deaf?)
Frank. |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 7
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 01:42 pm: |
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[quote]No, by looking at pictures, we can't tell much of anything.
What part of this don't you get?![/quote]
Then use the pictures of the mac since that is just as detailed as having the processor right in front of you. Or if you do not know just say you do not know, I am here to find out why yet no one can answer that.
[quote]What the ....heck do you expect to see inside a CD Player?[/quote]
A CD player that expensive? High end CD players have been discredited long ago and hifi news just did a round up on a bunch of them.
[quote](Or are you deaf?)[/quote]
You got me I am just so jealous of people that can hear. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1798
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 02:33 pm: |
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Did you just discover that the field of high-end audio is laced with snake-oil?
I repeat, what do you expect to see inside a high-end CD player?
You claim the Lexicon RV-5 & H/K AVR-745 are one in the same, a re-badge, yet despite the fact that the two are clearly different in some not so subtle ways, you still defend your position. When asked to produce some comparative pics to substantiate your claims, we get nothing.
If you want to guarantee that nobody ever listens to a word you say, stay up on your soapbox and continue to toss bombs like you've done here and the dozen or so other sights you've started this thread. |
Gold Member Username: Stefanom
Vienna,
VA
United States
Post Number: 1134
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 03:46 pm: |
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I always suspected.....
I wonder if I can get some counterfeit Lexicon badges to put on my HK equipment, and see if I can fool a few people? Anyone know where to find them?
PS: People at the Lexicon forums are stupid. They actually plunked down the cash for rebadged HK equipment. Hahaha fools. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12198
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 04:20 pm: |
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.
"Or if you do not know just say you do not know, I am here to find out why yet no one can answer that."
If you don't want to listen - to us and to the equipment - then, no, you're not learning anything. You're just running your yap! If you don't want to listen but just wnat to spout your predetermined ideas, then just say so. We can ignore you, take my word for it.
BS - How do you account for the weight difference between the HK and the Lexicon if, as you claim, they are identical products?
. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 6115
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 09:15 pm: |
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He thinks that we imagined the difference in weight. Perhaps it's a Harman conspiracy and there is no real diference in weight. Good grief! |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 8
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 03:07 pm: |
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[quote]I repeat, what do you expect to see inside a high-end CD player?[/quote]
Something that will make a difference in sound yet every un biased review I read finds no sonic difference. Plus in the digital age why not just use the digital out?
[quote]You claim the Lexicon RV-5 & H/K AVR-745 are one in the same, a re-badge, yet despite the fact that the two are clearly different in some not so subtle ways, you still defend your position. When asked to produce some comparative pics to substantiate your claims, we get nothing.[/quote]
So I post a link to a lexicon owners forum with owners of the RV-5 stating that they are the same/rebadge of the HK and you do not beleive them?
[quote]How do you account for the weight difference between the HK and the Lexicon if, as you claim, they are identical products?[/quote]
I would assume chassis and heat sink differences. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12204
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 03:13 pm: |
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.
That's one heck of a chassis and heatsink. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1802
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 03:22 pm: |
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Oye veh! This is going nowhere.
"I would assume chassis and heat sink differences."
I will skip the ubiquitous "assume" cliche, and simple ask do think the chassis & heat sink make any sort of difference, sonic or otherwise, in an audio component?
If these are different, then the two are not, and can not be, the same. Please tell me you get that basic premise? |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 9
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 03:45 pm: |
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http://www.areadvd.de/images/2007/hk_avr745_inside.jpg
http://www.av199.com/thread-166532-1-1.html
Have a look. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1803
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 04:13 pm: |
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Now that's what I'm taking about Bob, good work. |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1804
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 04:18 pm: |
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The Lexicon RV-5
 |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2422
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 04:26 pm: |
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Bob,
Can you honestly not tell that there's a different power supply in the two receivers?
It took me all of about 5 seconds.
I guess you and the so-called experts on the Lexicon forum aren't very good at Where's Waldo are you? |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1805
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 04:28 pm: |
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The H/K AVR-745
 |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12206
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 05:20 pm: |
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.
OOOOOOOOOOH, BS!
DOH!
OK, let's atke a look. Same chassis. Good move on cost cutting by HK but not much difference in weight when you use the same chassis.
STEEEEEE-RIKE ONE!
One lonely little heat sink in the corner. Hmmmmmm ... maybe they have switched to those hi-tech invisible heat sinks. I understand they weigh a lot more than the regular kind.
NAH!!!
STEEEEEEE-RIKE TWO!!
They use the same boards but no one that I can see has proven they use the same components. Better parts, better performance even in the same circuit. Change the cuicuit somewhat by building a universal board (another smart money saving move) with jumpers in place to adapt the board to two different curcuits and ...
You have a different product!!!
STEEEEEEEEEEE-RIKE THREE!!!!!
BS - You be OUT!!!!!!!!!!
. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9741
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 12:27 pm: |
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I love spring training..weed out the kids. |
New member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 10
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 10:41 pm: |
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[quote]Can you honestly not tell that there's a different power supply in the two receivers?[/quote]
And you think something like this is going to make a huge sonic impact?
[quote]Jan Vigne[/quote]
Its the same unit! |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Post Number: 657
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:20 pm: |
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uhhh, Bob...you've been dismissed.
Go grab some bench. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2431
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:29 pm: |
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You can't be serious. What is more important than the power supply of a power amp?
I'm not saying its everything, but its very significant. Maybe the most important single part. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12210
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 12:17 am: |
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.
BS - An amplifier is a modulated power supply, so, yep, a power supply makes a difference.
Show me other parts that are the same BS, or else you're headed back to the minors. Identical circuit boards and chassis don't count. It's what's on the circuit board and how the parts are connected that matters. Show me the two components use the same parts at the same tolerance and then we'll talk. Otherwise, let the pitch hit you this time, BS. Take one for the team.
. |
Bronze Member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 12
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:30 pm: |
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[quote]You can't be serious. What is more important than the power supply of a power amp?
I'm not saying its everything, but its very significant. Maybe the most important single part.[/quote]
As noted before the amp sections have the same specs!
[quote]Show me other parts that are the same BS, or else you're headed back to the minors. Identical circuit boards and chassis don't count. It's what's on the circuit board and how the parts are connected that matters. Show me the two components use the same parts at the same tolerance and then we'll talk. Otherwise, let the pitch hit you this time, BS. Take one for the team.[/quote]
Hahaha, look at the pictures they are the SAME unit. |
Silver Member Username: Shawnharman
Post Number: 161
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 02:33 pm: |
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bob, your not getting what people here are trying to tell you, just because they look the same when you take a glance at them DOES NOT mean they have the same exact components built onto thhose circuits. like jan and everybody has been saying same boards, same chassis, doesnt mean same parts. If they were the same in everyway, why wouldnt they use the same power supplies then? if they used the same exact components on both units, why would they take the time to put in two diferent power supplies? |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2439
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 06:45 am: |
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Specs don't tell the whole story Bob.
Show me a spec on soundstage height, width, or depth.
Show me a spec on imaging accuracy.
Show me a spec on Pace, Rythym, and Timing (PRaT).
Show me a spec on tonal accuracy (not THD).
Need I keep going? There's a lot more things that contirbute to great sound that don't have specs. Power output into minimum and nominal impedences, THD, frequency response, and a few others that manufacturers randomly use to tell people like you that a receiver or amp is good don't tell the whole story. Actually, they're not even scratching the surface. |
Bronze Member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 15
Registered: Jan-08
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 04:11 pm: |
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[quote]bob, your not getting what people here are trying to tell you, just because they look the same when you take a glance at them DOES NOT mean they have the same exact components built onto thhose circuits. like jan and everybody has been saying same boards, same chassis, doesnt mean same parts. If they were the same in everyway, why wouldnt they use the same power supplies then? if they used the same exact components on both units, why would they take the time to put in two diferent power supplies?[/quote]
?? So you are saying that they used the exact same lay out but changed out many of the "cheap" parts? Come on even the lexicon owners admitted that both units are the same and the specs can back that up.
[quote]Specs don't tell the whole story Bob.
Show me a spec on soundstage height, width, or depth.
Show me a spec on imaging accuracy.
Show me a spec on Pace, Rythym, and Timing (PRaT).
Show me a spec on tonal accuracy (not THD).
Need I keep going? There's a lot more things that contirbute to great sound that don't have specs. Power output into minimum and nominal impedences, THD, frequency response, and a few others that manufacturers randomly use to tell people like you that a receiver or amp is good don't tell the whole story. Actually, they're not even scratching the surface.[/quote]
And power cords make a difference right? Hahaha. As said before the lexicon owners admitted that both units are the same, the pictures back that up and the tech specs do as well, what else do you want? |
Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
United States
Post Number: 1810
Registered: Oct-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 05:06 pm: |
|
Bob, when you look at those two pictures you see the same image? You see the same power supplies? The same interfaces on the rear panel?
If you do, you are hallucinating, period.
I'll agree that on paper the two have more than a little in common, but so do a chimp & a human, and what little difference there is, makes all the difference in the world.
Is there $5K worth of difference, not in my estimation, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I didn't buy one.
Have you listened to the two? What the hell is your fixation on this?
Caveat emptor |
Gold Member Username: Touche6784
USA
Post Number: 1220
Registered: Nov-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 05:24 pm: |
|
guys, he is obviously a troll. stop replying and he will go away. |
Gold Member Username: Touche6784
USA
Post Number: 1221
Registered: Nov-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 08:16 pm: |
|
http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=140
http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=136
http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=554
I'm sorry guys, I had to. His own precious forum has members that admit differences between the two exist. But again, he is a troll so lets stop feeding him. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12241
Registered: May-04
|
| Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 09:54 pm: |
|
.
"Is the 645 a true cousin to the Lex, or is it likely not ready for prime time?
More likened to a nephew. It does not have nearly the configurability of the Lexicons. The bass management is more rudimentary: all redirected bass goes to the subwoofer output; on the Lexicon the redirected bass cascades to adjacent channels with lower crossover settings before culminating at the subwoofer, not to mention the three subwoofer outputs on the MC-12. The Room EQ offered on the MC-12 is more advanced than the EzSet/EQ on the receivers; they take different approaches to correcting the room. The multi-zone capabilities of the Lexicons exceeds the H/Ks. And generally the Lexicons have lower noise floors, particularly the MC-12 with differential DACs. They truly are in different leagues.
All that said, the AVR-645 looks like a very good value considering its capabilities vs. price. The Lexicons are all currently out of my price range, so that makes the decision a bit easier for me."
Oh, BS. You stupid little shithead!!!
. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2451
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 07:06 am: |
|
Bob,
Show me one a spec that measures one of the things I asked you. Are those imaginary qualities? Or are they the same in every component and therefore irrevelant?
If we admit that they're the exact same unit, and everyone is 'paying for the name' will you go away? |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2704
Registered: Sep-04
|
| Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 08:55 am: |
|
Bob,
In the middle ages it was a fact that the earth was flat and it was at the centre of the universe. Nobody disputed this. We now know otherwise. Specs are all very well but they are limited by our own understanding of what we're measuring.
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 17
Registered: Jan-08
|
| Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 04:57 pm: |
|
So you people found no differences between the RV-5 and the HK, oh the only thing you could come up with is the different bass management between the 645 and the MC-12? Ya you sure showed me. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 12249
Registered: May-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 05:59 pm: |
|
.
If it's different it ain't identical. What part of that don't you get, BS? |
Gold Member Username: Touche6784
USA
Post Number: 1222
Registered: Nov-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 09:21 pm: |
|
Ok bob lets settle this. You look at those two pics and there three clear differences between them besides the power supplies. You look at the board on the bottom right of each picture and you will notice that the positioning for the two big black squares, what I assume are transistors of some sort or maybe processors but I could be wrong, are completely different. The HK has the left most block much closer to the edge and is slightly higher closer to the top edge. This cannot be accounted for by camera angle or any other mumbo jumbo since the chassis of both units look about the same and in the HK, it has moved about an inch. Also, the HK has two sets of wires running from the top down straight to the aforementioned black thing, a ribbon connection and another set of wires in the corner of that edge whereas the Lexicon has only wires spread across the edge which they are connected to. You will also notice in the pictures that the Lexicon has the ribbon in the top left of the unit running almost perpendicular to the board it connects to, whereas the HK has the ribbon going downwards and to the left. All that I have just described can lead to only one conclusion; a difference in the topology of the boards being used in the units. This can only mean that Lexicon and HK are not the same things, and in your example of the RV-5 and the HK-745, they are completely different. There is no reason for someone or some company to redesign a board to make it function exactly the same, especially if you are trying to make the enormous undeserving profits that you so claim. Companies that share the same mother company do not use different looking, differently structured yet identically functioning parts. It is something that just does not happen. Now that you have been shown up please go away and stop trolling here. |
Bronze Member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 19
Registered: Jan-08
|
| Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 03:09 pm: |
|
[quote]If it's different it ain't identical. What part of that don't you get, BS?[/quote]
And no one was talking about the 645 so what is your point? |
Bronze Member Username: Asahikasei
Post Number: 20
Registered: Jan-08
|
| Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 03:12 pm: |
|
[quote]Ok bob lets settle this. You look at those two pics and there three clear differences between them besides the power supplies. You look at the board on the bottom right of each picture and you will notice that the positioning for the two big black squares, what I assume are transistors of some sort or maybe processors but I could be wrong, are completely different. The HK has the left most block much closer to the edge and is slightly higher closer to the top edge. This cannot be accounted for by camera angle or any other mumbo jumbo since the chassis of both units look about the same and in the HK, it has moved about an inch. Also, the HK has two sets of wires running from the top down straight to the aforementioned black thing, a ribbon connection and another set of wires in the corner of that edge whereas the Lexicon has only wires spread across the edge which they are connected to. You will also notice in the pictures that the Lexicon has the ribbon in the top left of the unit running almost perpendicular to the board it connects to, whereas the HK has the ribbon going downwards and to the left. All that I have just described can lead to only one conclusion; a difference in the topology of the boards being used in the units. This can only mean that Lexicon and HK are not the same things, and in your example of the RV-5 and the HK-745, they are completely different. There is no reason for someone or some company to redesign a board to make it function exactly the same, especially if you are trying to make the enormous undeserving profits that you so claim. Companies that share the same mother company do not use different looking, differently structured yet identically functioning parts. It is something that just does not happen. Now that you have been shown up please go away and stop trolling here.[/quote]
Hahaha, you are such a hypocrite, did you even read what you wrote? |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 2470
Registered: May-05
|
| Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 11:36 pm: |
|
You're absolutely right Bob. Its the SAME EXACT UNIT!!!
Its been a conspiracy on our part the whole time. We were just testing you, and you passed with flying colors. Now can we move on? |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Wisconsin
Post Number: 673
Registered: Dec-06
|
| Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 12:17 am: |
|
uh.....thanks for clearing that up Stu!
Next. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 9766
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 10:28 am: |
|
Good God, let it die. |
