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Thread: Archive through March 16, 2007 |
    
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1234
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 12:46 pm: |
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That is why I put the question mark after that statement. After listening some more it seems that even though the gain is decreased the fidelity (don't know what words to give this) is increased. This is a great tube to be sure. Now playing is Anne-Sophie Mutter playing Beethoven's Violin Concertos and the range seems to be just as fluid as I have ever heard. Good stuff.
On a side note : "JC - You know how I hate to disagree" Jan I have to disgree with that statement. |
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Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1235
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |
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I also have to disagree with myself on how to spell disagree. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2761
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 02:11 pm: |
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Actually lower gain in a stage be it tubes or anything else can and usually does
make for lower noise and a cleaner signal. As any amplifying device has a power
supply amung other things introducing grunge into the signal path which can be
quite a bit and very noisy not to mention the device it'self like a tube just sitting
there and running full boar without even having signal present has noise it'self so
a lower gain device it'self "can" be quieter then a higher gain one for sure.
Now once a signal is present the signal it'self boosted by the amplifying device
may or may not be quieter and cleaner depending on how quiet and clean they
are compaired to each other with no signal. But by lowering the noise floor in a
piece to start with (possably with a lower gain tube) should give you the cleaner
signal in the end.
In otherwords the math tells you a lower gain device is quieter when no signal is
present, but if the inherint device is noisier to start with than the higher gain device
it may be a wash or even worse. I generally believe 5751's are quieter then 12ax7's
as an amplifiying device then you add the slightly lower gain usually spells a much
quiter signal all the way around. Quiet passages in music are quieter, backgrounds
are blacker then any difference in sonic signature can take over as well.
The gain difference between the 2 is usually pretty small in any given piece, but as
Jan said another benefit to this (if your piece still has sufficiant gain) is you can turn
the pot up higher while getting the same volume as before to where now the previous
piece "can" see a better load to run into.
As I siad it's not allways an "upgrade" to run a 5751 instead of a 12ax7 but the chances
for success I believe are quite high. But it also comes down to how much and in what way
the change may have affected the tone of the piece as well. I believe all the way around a
5751 is a better "sounding" tube then a 12ax7 but in some circumstances it won't be.
Some may still prefer the sound of a 12ax7 over a 5751 if they like the sound they produce
in the first place, I happen to prefer the 5751 and think it sounds better. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1238
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 03:45 pm: |
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After listening to it all day I do like the sound. It reaches lower than all my other 12ax7's (except for the Sovtek 12ax7wb which has a boosted lower end and sounds like shite in all other areas) while maintaining awesome midrange. I guess I prefer this tube to any I have tried. I have not purchased any pre tube over $30 though and maybe a Mullard or a Telefunken may change my mind, but I am not prepared to spend over a hundred to try it.
Playing YES - 90125 and now these babies are showing their true colors. Have been in the office in the next room working all day but I had to go in there and sit and listen. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1239
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 03:46 pm: |
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Here is the tube in case anyone is interested.
http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-5751jan.html |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 9617
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 03:54 pm: |
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" ... once a signal is present ... "
Aye, there's the rub! The music!
You've got to get "X" amount of voltage through the amplifier to get "X" amount of volume from your speakers. If you listen at the same volume with the lower gain tube, the voltage has to be made up somewhere in the loop. Either you're driving the pre amp to higher voltage or you're making it up in the output stages.
It's somewhat like running a Klipschorn or a LS3/5a off a tube amp. The Klipsch has such high efficiency that you hear the circuit noise at idle but it requires very little voltage to get the signal to jump. The 3/5a is so inefficient you don't hear the noise at idle but you have to push the amp harder to get volume. Quiet passages get swamped in circuit noise through the Klipsch while loud passages get close to the amp's limits on the mini-monitor.
It's all a trade and you get to decide where you want to trade A for B. If the sound is better, then there's a case for making the trade out.
. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1243
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 10:55 pm: |
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Worth the time and money switching out the driver stage (12at7) tubes in the Jolida?
Heard that was waste of time and concentrate on preamp stage. I currently have the ecc81 JJ tesla version in there now.
Just seeing that NOS 12at7's are a steal when compared to the ax7 versions.
Any thoughts? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2762
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 12:38 am: |
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I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you do some good searching you'll see many
feel the 12at7 isn't that great of a tube either and I feel pretty much the same way. A lot
of times I'll sub a 6829, e180cc or 5965 in there place with very good results. Most these
tubes go for peanuts as there no longer made and no one builds any new equipment that
is based on a roughly 45 gain tube with the same pinout as the 12at7,12au7,12ax7 I use
them in some of my builds be it rebuilds or new creations, I find these great tubes for the
money and feel very glad most either don't know about them or just pass um up for there
usual suspects and pay more doing so. 
Generally the first tube "can" have a more profound effect on the sound/performance of a
piece then the rest of them will, but all the tubes do make up the sound of a piece so yah
other tubes besides the driver may make a pretty nice difference, won't know till yu try um. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1244
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 12:19 pm: |
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5965a would be a safe choice for the driver stage on the Jolida in your opinion Keg?
Here is one for cheap.
http://store.triodestore.com/5965age.html |
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2763
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:35 pm: |
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Yes I believe that tube should sub in just fine on your amp.
Only issue I've had with the 3 previous 45mu/gain tubes mentioned are
microphonics, it hasn't been an incurable one with good isolation though. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1247
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 04:59 pm: |
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Thanks for the advice Keg, just ordered them. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1248
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 05:02 pm: |
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Maybe if you are interested, we could work a deal where I take out boards that have caps on them inside amp and ship to you for upgrade someday if you want? Save me shipping and some labor costs. Or maybe just do old fashioned way and send you whole amp and work out a deal for upgrades that way. If you are interested of course. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2764
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 08:17 pm: |
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We could probably figure something out, shoot me an email when the time comes.
In the meantime get your tube choices down and some good listening on it stock. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5210
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 06:34 am: |
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I ordereed Sovtek EL84M tubes from Tube Depot in a matched quad. $75C delivered is about the best price I could find, without putting premium gas in a Yugo.
The one channel with good tubes leaves me 2 EL84's left over. Is there any use in keeping them?
What happens if I split these 2 with 2 Sovtek's, one in each channel?
Or just shitcan the old ones? |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 9625
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 06:37 pm: |
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.
Keep the old, working tubes as spares to use when checking for faults that could destroy a better tube. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5224
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:30 am: |
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Faults?
What could go wrong with my 190$ chinese amp?
I will keep the el cheapo's.
What is El cheapo in Chinese?
Other than what I have. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 9630
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 12:10 pm: |
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"What is El cheapo in Chinese?"
#2 with an eggroll. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5227
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 01:25 pm: |
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hehehe |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1272
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 08:31 am: |
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I have some Sovtek 6550's for the Jolida. They are nice but a little "slow" for my tastes. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5246
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 08:37 am: |
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What did the 6550's replace, JC? |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1274
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:33 am: |
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Actually they were stock in the J, I replaced them with EH kt88's. Much nicer tube for my application. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5250
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:54 am: |
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Are the EH kt88's so smooth?
I have a link to a tube guy in Detroit?I think.
He has a lot of stuff, Mullards, too.
Lemme find that, he had a set of matched quads for like $700, I think.
Kegger must know him. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5251
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:55 am: |
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http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?accstube&1171852061
There it is. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1275
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:24 am: |
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I like them, only paid $100 for a quad. Much better than the Sovteks in my op. Well defined low end compard to the Sov's and much better detail in the mids and highs. I wouldn't spend $700 on tubes though. That's the level at which I would have to agree with Jan on. Go ahead and do mods on the amp before spending that kind of money on just tubes. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5254
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:41 am: |
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Fair enough. Have to hit the wall somewhere. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1276
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:11 pm: |
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Ok, now I am really confused. I have been playing the new 5965a's in the driver stage of the Jolida this morning and love the sound. I now have 5751 for pre amp and 5965 for driver stage for the front end on this amp. No one but Keg has given me suggestions on substituting tubes for the ones supposedly needed for the amp. This amp now has much more detail and strength especially in the midrange and such a difference in soundstage(seems wider and deeper). Why would the tube shops not suggest this type of swap if it sounds this much better. I am not kidding when I say that the combination of these two substitutes make a big noticeable difference. Is it because they don't make any money off of these tube types? Oh well. thanks Keg and I really hope someone else can try this kind of swap soon.
For the record, total spent $52 for the four tubes and $14 for shipping (since it was two sep orders) not bad. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5257
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:18 pm: |
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JC, why do the shops not suggest this swap for the best sound?
Simple.
You are better than most shops for your kit.
So is Kegger.
A big pat on the back for a job well done, at a great price, and for sharing. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5264
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 01:08 pm: |
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Well, I hopped oout of the shower, only to see the Purolator guy driving away. I checked the front door, and found the dreaded 'nobody home' slip taped there.
I have to go 100km to the depot, so I tossed on some duds and chased the guy around town.
In my slippers.
Found the truck, the guy nearly died laughing, I forgot a hat. Nice.
But I now have the Sovtek EL84's in the kit.
If these only get better with time, I must say that is a kickass combo.
The Ling's have finally found the sweet spot.
The smooth mids have been complimented with a snap in the 60-80 range that is quite sharp for guitar transitions, EC unplugged, in particular.
I like it! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5269
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 01:44 pm: |
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The new tubes take like a minute to glow up, as opposed to the old ones(10 seconds).
Tim's Lings are terrific in this config! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5278
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 03:42 pm: |
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Aww but ain't that America... |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1284
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 04:13 pm: |
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Here is one for you when you get the bug again:
http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_28&products_id=57&osCsi d=9f139e8c6a4cb396ba2d767ee5b922e7 |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5281
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 04:35 pm: |
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Good link, JC. I will look for EL84's |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5285
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 05:02 pm: |
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This little tuber has a lot of shine to it.
Recommended at the price! With Slovtek EL 84's. |
Gold Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 1043
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 06:09 pm: |
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I can see you chasing down that truck, Nuck and I'm rotfl! Glad the amp is working out with those Lings.
Sounds like you did it again! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5290
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 07:00 pm: |
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No Ducky heads on the slippers, though.
But good for the offering!
Gawd, I look like a weenie! |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1295
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 04:42 pm: |
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The tube/monitor combos are so full of character don't you think Nuck? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5306
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 06:41 am: |
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Yes I do, JC.
I am very pleased with the tube roll results.
The sound is very lively, and the bass is less muddled now, even with the poor speaker placement.
For the investment involved, a listener with a good ear would guess a lot more went into this. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2765
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:13 pm: |
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JC my guess as to why tube shops wouldn't suggest those tubes is they just don't
know about them so they just suggest what is the norm or more used types of tubes.
That's what's great about designing your own is you don't have to build with the more
"expensive" and widely used tubes and can build with the cheaper lessar used tubes.
You can experiment with a tube that has the parameters that suit what you want to do.
Many manufacturers and tube sellars alike will not use or sell many tubes that are no
longer being produced for fear of differences in there products when they have to switch
to something else and tell there customers they can only buy NOS tubes for there gear.
But we as customers or builders are not constrained to only using the "audio" tubes!
There are many great hidden/secret tubes out there that are truly great cheap tubes.
I have to bite my tounge sometimes not to promote many of them to keep the secret. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1310
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 07:14 pm: |
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Man! I tell ya. Horns sound sooooooo good on a tube setup. Wether it's in Talk Talk's "give it up" or in the sacd Baroque music for brass and organ, they just sound so pleasing. There is a certain harshness that a horn gives out that is translated terribly in most SS setups that I have heard. Granted I have not heard super high end SS amps but there we go.
Had a rough day and the wife wanted to watch some E hollywood crap so I came down here to the "man room" ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5362
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 07:40 pm: |
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Welcome back to the 'man room', JC.
I am embarrased to not even have a pinup pic for you.
HOWEVER, anyone interested in a busload of military tubes?
http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/search/ItemInfo.cfm?Language=ENGLISH&LOT_CONTRACT _NO=147350&LOT_CONTRACT_TYPE=L
Huh? |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 9634
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:47 pm: |
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.
Canadian military!? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5373
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 06:44 am: |
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Jumbo shrimp. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 9635
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 02:44 pm: |
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.
How about a proven tweak for all your gear?
http://www.vibrapod.com/
Last night I replaced the spike/coin/pumice stone/thick rubber construct under my Mac amplifiers with a set of Vibrapods and found it to be money/time well spent. The improvements are exactly what the company claims.
The immediately apparent improvement came in the bass response where the extension, weight and tone brought forth from the LS3/5a's four inch woofer was welcome. For those of you with the "Emma Demo" disc to use as a reference, the response was now a smooth, waning declination beyond the previous limit at the mid thirties and now into the upper twenty Hz range. But, the benefits extend through the entire frequency bandwidth and are evenly balanced throughout. The pods did not change the basic character of the Macs, their improvement was merely an enhancement of the amplifiers' already pleasurable qualities.
Cymbals, bells, gongs, etc, were cleaner with a more tightly defined metalic leading edge. Ambient decays were excellent in all regions but quite noticeable at the frequency extremes. The big Telarc drum had more impact and the cymbals on Fanfare for the Common Man obtained a more expansive reverberation. "Shimmer" and "transparency" are the words for the improvement in the high frequencies and more "round" or "woody" double bass, cello and bass strings on an acoustic guitar is what you'll hear at the lowest octaves. Rounded instrument tone, however, is accompanied by the more well defined pull or draw of the string. Drum heads are drawn just a bit more taut and have an additional resonance that helps define which drum type/brand is being struck. PRaT is improved and musical lines are separated out while becoming more cohesively tied together with a common movement forward amongst the performers. Everyone has had an additional rehearsal together and improvisational lines have a smidge more lift to their flight. Alberta Hunter is clearly enjoying the companionship of her fellow musicians with the Vibrapods in place.
Layering is improved in massed instruments and voices. Most importantly for me, voices are pulled out of the mix without being forced forward or artificially brightened. Words and phrases that before had fallen away into the common mix are now defined and better articulated. To my pleasure the Vibrapods brought forth a more refined ability of the system to define thought, intent, talent, ability and momentum in a vocalist or instrumentalist in order to enhance and explore the nuance and performance style of the individual or the group. Frank and Elvis were just a bit more dynamic in front of the beat while Blossom and Ella were more evidently in control behind the moment. Arlo was all the more empathic when singing about the old grey men riding the train they call the City of New Orleans.
All this from 65 lb. Mac tube amplifiers that don't like most attempts at damping.
The Vibrapods are not, in my brief experience, however, a plop and drop tweak. Since the tubes and other gear in my system have already been tweaked with isolation/coupling/damping techniques, the addition of the Vibrapods was a good/bad effect at first. I suggest you buy the complementary cones and be ready to experiment with what you hear. Have some additional items as described on the company's web site available to use in order to tune the system to your taste and needs. Placement of the pods under power transformers and sensitive components will give various results concomitant with your skills at listening to the subtle effects of a few inches movement here or there. I finally ended last night with the pods slightly decoupled from the bottom plate of my amplifiers and at not quite the outer limits of the amplifier's base plate. Further damping in the pre amp was adjusted to bring the performance into focus and increase the depth of field. Some new high temperature O-rings were installed on the pre amp tubes and their sockets after I became fairly familiar with the Vibrapods' effects, but I found I had purchased too many O-rings based on the needs of the system prior to the pod's arrival. The heavier rings were more than I needed to bring the system to life and the lighter/thinner rings were moved up the tubes' enclosure to get a bit less damping effect which tends to squash dynamics. There is still more experimentation to be done and more pods/cones to be ordered. The effect, however, is striking and can be easily reversed or altered to suit.
The pods come with a 30 day trial and 10% of all company profuits are donated to worthy charities. Buy more of the pods in a lighter weight bearing number rather than fewer of the higher numbers and experiment. The Vibrapod sandwich is probably a good thing to expect you will at least try, so buy those materials in advance also. These are very cost effective tweaks that have now replaced items I've used for years with great success.
If you are experimenting you might find what you assumed to be good sound prior to the Vibrapods is now out of kilter with the addition of the pods. In general more light damping devices are usually better than a few heavy attempts at such. Don't assume the "absolute polarity" of the system is correct or the AC polarity to all components is right. Make adjustments and listen. Since one of my speakers must be moved into place for each listening session, I got out the tape measure/laser level to assure proper speaker set up. For a few dollars you can pick up an AC cirucit tester to assure proper wiring before you set out to tweak your set up. It's a bit early for the annual reminder to do a spring cleaning on your system, but paying attention to these details as you tweak and listen will pay off in larger benefits for the few dollars you pay for the pods.
. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5385
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 03:15 pm: |
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Thanks, Jan. I wil put a pot of tea on, then re-read your volumenous posting once again.
As usual, thank you for sommore to think on! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 9636
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 03:46 pm: |
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.
If it has not been stated, do not apply any "rubber" type of damping ring to power amplifier tubes. The tubes get far too hot for most devices and will melt the ring onto the surface of the tube envelope. Damping rings should only be used on pre amp or low level tubes - such as a DAC. I got my set from a gasket company and these particular 0-rings are good to approx. 400-450 °. I think Nuck had mentioned this source before also. The thin pieces cost $0.98 @ and the thicker rings were $3.00 @.
. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5390
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 04:10 pm: |
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Hi-Viton is the material to use. |
Gold Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 1065
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 04:26 pm: |
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"Alberta Hunter is clearly enjoying the companionship of her fellow musicians with the Vibrapods in place."
Yes, and the audience is not amused. [grin] |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 5397
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 05:06 pm: |
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Hey, people pay more for less than Hunter on a Virator.
It's all I got. |
Gold Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
USA
Post Number: 1343
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 03:45 pm: |
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Didn't want the tubes section to get lonely. |
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