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Thread: High End Pre Amp with Tone Controls? |
    
New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 1
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 06:38 pm: |
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I know, most of you are probably purests and dont believe in high end pre-amps with tone controls. But in my case, I need this flexibility. Anyway, can anyone recommend anything? Im currently running a Hafler DH-110 pre-amp, a Classe CA-100 power-amp, and a Rega Apollo CD player. A line stage unit would be fine for I have no vinyl.
Thanks. |
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Relevant Product Info
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11093
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 07:54 pm: |
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What do you need in the way of tone controls? Most are very broad in their action and serve to do more harm than benefit. Others are often too selective and don't do enough to solve problems. Try looking at a used McIntosh pre amp with their version of a graphic equalizer.
http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=C32&nav=cat
Otherwise, scan the Audio Clasics pages. There are several vintage pre amps that still hold their own against anything you'd find new in a reasonable price range that would include tone controls. The B&K, Citation, Marantz, etc. are all good choices offering a step up over the Hafler unit.
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New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 2
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 08:12 pm: |
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As far as what I need, standard bass and treble would be sufficient as long as I get around +/-10db or so in those regions. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11097
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 09:45 pm: |
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I'm sorry, I was unaware of a "standard" tone control. Where would that place the knee of the control? 250Hz, 500Hz, 2kHz, 10kHz? What about loudness compensation? |
New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 3
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 10:17 pm: |
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Your making this more complex than needed. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11098
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 12:07 am: |
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No, just trying to point out that buying and using "tone controls" is not a easy as it appears. Simple bass and treble controls can have very different effects depending on the designer's preferences. Add in the effects of a loudness compensation control, whether fixed or vairable, and it's own non-standard knee frequency - and whether loudness compensation affects only bass or bass and treble - and tone controls can be a bit messy and mostly useless. This leads me back the McIntosh five band tone controls with variable loudness compensation. They are the most effective group of controls I've come across. And, when you buy the tone controls, a Mac pre amp comes along free.
Otherwise, consider what you require and then choose accordingly.
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New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 4
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 11:14 am: |
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Anywhere you would recommend to find these other than ebay? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11104
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 11:57 am: |
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You can look at Audio Classics, the site I linked to previously, and Audiogon. Both cater to a high end clientelle with decent prices and far better reputation for handling consumer aduio pieces than eBay. Otherwise, put "vintage audio" in a search engine and you'll find smaller dealers with a more personalized retail operation. I know of nothing in the current market that includes tone controls. That doesn't mean they aren't out there, but they are few and far between since tone controls have fallen into disfavor for the reasons I touched on above. You can also look at the pro audio side where graphic and parametric equalizers are still available. Behringer makes a few that are reasonably priced. Try Parts Express and wade through the car stereo junk.
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Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8304
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 08:40 pm: |
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Jim, the rec's above are valid.
The preamps are generally straight through, but the tonals are always a crap shoot, resultin in personal rec's based on the tonals.
You could listen to a dozen preamps looking for your ideal sound.
A straight up device makes so much of a dirrerence. Like huge.
You stated a frequency conrol requirement.
Could I ask why you feel the need for tonals? |
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New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 5
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:35 am: |
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First, let me say that ive been down the road of the purest. I know what great systems sound like that dont employ tone equalization. My conclusions were this: While many CD's sounded very good in this environment, I found some did not. Some recordings I find horribly deficient in the bass region, the treble region, or both. Plainly said, the sound engineer didnt always do his/her job properly.
Add to this that nowadays, you have a lot of material out there that is self released. Many of these recordings employ less than state of the art technology and sound flat and lifeless to me.
I also sample a lot of mp3's. Need more be said for the need for tonal capability for these?
I understand what you are all talking about, and trying to get at in addresing my needs. I thank you for your thoroughness. However, my needs are general ones, not specific ones. Its not like im dealing with a room induced standing wave at 52hz, or a speaker resonance peak at 39hz. Im merely trying to get something better that doesnt what the Hafler DH-110 already does, and that is give me the ability to add to the top or bottom end to compensate for poor engineering, sub standard mastering equipment, or a inferior medium (mp3). |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11112
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:53 am: |
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JL - Since the tone controls on the Hafler seem to suit your needs, find the frequency knee for those controls in your owner's manual. Choose a new/old pre amp with those frequencies in mind. Unless, of course, you chose to go with the more effective Mac pre amp or a true equalizer. |
New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 6
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 01:18 pm: |
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I appreciate the responses so far, yet, I cant bring myself to spend money on a 30 year old Mac or Marantz, and little else has been suggested.
Any more thoughts? Anybody? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11129
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 06:34 pm: |
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Huh? No, he's not talking to me. I think he means you. Go ahead, answer him. |
Bronze Member Username: Wattsssup
Barrie,
ON
Canada
Post Number: 29
Registered: Aug-06
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| Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 06:45 pm: |
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Lol. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8359
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 03:46 pm: |
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Jim, as a long travelled purist(as you said) then the answer is clear.
Unless you want band equipment, which usually involves seperate channels and electronic crossovers. |
New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 7
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 04:19 pm: |
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So far, found a:
B&K Mc 101 $450
AR sp4 $350
See, this can be done. But im still in research mode. Any helpful makes, models, or sites where stuff is sold is still helpful.
Thank You. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8361
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 04:39 pm: |
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Jim, the B&K is a fair unit, not sure as to the inputs.
B&K is a solid brand.Does it offer all that you need?
Does the phono have what you need?
If yes, then pursue it.
The brand will dot(likely) let you down.
As always, why is the seller selling? |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11141
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 05:04 pm: |
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Nobody said it couldn't be done, JL. We just can't do it for you. Did you check the link I posted in my first reply? It will take you to Audiogon to check for pre owned gear. And I mentioned B&K at that point. But I thought you didn't want to spend money for vintage gear. Both pre amps you list are vintage. The Audio Research SP4 is approaching 25-30 years of age. It's your money, and Audio Research is a very good company with product support, but I would rather pay for a 30 year old component that has appreciated in price rather than a vintage piece that has only depreciated. Why do you suppose the Mac and Marantz gear sells for ten times its original asking price? Could it be the sound quality or construction quality. Do ya suppose?
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New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 8
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 05:35 pm: |
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Well your right, im leaning against the AR unit because of its age. When was the B&K unit made? Im trying to determine that now. It seems newer.
I think one of our problems, you and I Jan, is communication. One being whats vintage and whats not. I dont have a preconceived idea what is and isnt. While the McIntosh stuff I would think of in that vein, the B&K I wouldnt have.
Anyway, Im still learning whats out there. True, Marantz and McIntosh might be better from an investment point of view, but I have to be able to afford them in the first place. So far, I havent seen any McIntosh gear that I can afford, so the point is mute.
I did wade through the Audiogon classified. Theirs a lot of stuff there, some of which I suspect is garbage like the all that Anthem gear (perhaps its not), much of it is too pricey. I appreciate the link never the less. This is where I found the AR unit btw.
Where I am at right now is trying to determine if their is anything that competes with the B&K unit. Its my front runner right now. By compete, I mean price, features that I need, and being less than ancient. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8365
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 06:44 pm: |
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JL, Anthem makes some very impressive gear, although expensive, and maybe above your requirements.
Classe also makes some very expensive gear, but available as pre-loved equipment. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8366
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 06:46 pm: |
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JL, if you get out of the requirement of tonals, you will be much happier. |
New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 9
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 07:21 pm: |
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Nick, the sad truth is that only about 30% of my music collection would I be happy with listening to without tone compensation. Thus, 70% of the time id more more unhappy.
I know, I fail as a purest. Shoot me. |
New member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 10
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 07:23 pm: |
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btw....I said Anthem was crap just to point out that I dont know the good, from the bad, from the ugly when it comes to many brands. Thats a strong reason for this thread. Guide me please.... |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Post Number: 433
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 07:34 pm: |
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I believe they're trying, Jim. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8368
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 09:49 pm: |
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Jim, i was just like you a while back.
i believed that I needed tonals to control the music.
Truth be told, I just needed to let the music play and control itself a little bit, and let my head get around Little Willy John a little more.
Get offa the mp3's.
You have a good setup, let the music take over and be a good owner of the music media.
Tonals are for lazy people.
Straighten out your media, play good music on a good source and let it just happen.
Tonals are for people who cannot make the music right from the source.
Make it right and never look back. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11143
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 12:13 am: |
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It's difficult to tell when the B&K was built. The basic unit was designed in the late 1980's-early'90's. B&K updates their product more often than they change models. But the unit you're looking at could be anywhere from fifteen years old to a few months as far as I know. I would still consider it an upgrade over the Hafler.
Check the B&K web page to see if they can be of greater assistance and to see if the pre amp is still in their line up. If you're still interested, contact the seller and inquire about a serial number and date of manufacture. Then you might want to check back with B&K to see if that jibes with their serial/date information. Usually a company can tell you when a stretch of numbers were built, such as 90-075520 to 90-077857 were built between such and such date.
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Bronze Member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 11
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:03 am: |
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Thanks Jan  |
Bronze Member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 12
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:40 am: |
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Well Jan, I called B&K. To make a long story short, they told me that they no longer have many of the parts for this unit. Additionally, the power supply is a separate unit and if goes out, they have no replacements, or ability to fix them. Basically, if something goes out, throw it in the garbage.
To say the least, this was quite discouraging. But realistically, im going to run into this with probably all these old dinosaurs.
So, im going to change my strategy. See my new thread for details. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11146
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 09:22 pm: |
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Audio Research still supports every product they ever sold. McIntosh doesn't stock parts but they are readily available for 90% of all McIntosh ever built. Scott, Dynaco, Marantz and Citation can almost always be repaired. |
Silver Member Username: Leonski
Post Number: 189
Registered: Jan-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 05:57 pm: |
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Late 80's NAD1700 has 3 turnover freqs.
bass= 50 / 120 / 250
treble= 3k / 6k / 12k
NAD called them 'semi parametric' and they had fairly steep curves.
there is also a 'bass eq' and a backpanel switchable bass cut filter, which I think was once called a 'rumble filter', good for TTs and maybe to keep from killing a modern sub?
While not up to Mac standards, this is a good example of a reasonable tone control with a little more controlability. I have set them for a little increase at 50 and a little increase at 12k, to make up for deficiencies in my Maggies. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 8488
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 08:18 am: |
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Cool, Leo.
I have a 73 Pioneer pre/pro and that old thing has it all. input voltage selecter(110/100)v!
Bias, seperate channel attenuators, a selector for damping factor! up to 120 on the knob and some other stuff.
It's just been sitting in the room for months, your post reminded me that the shop is waiting for me to bring it in. Dan at DTSaudio.com says he has all the parts, and can clone most for cheap.
Sorry if I am OT, Jim, but lots of stuff can still be great.And fixable. |
Bronze Member Username: Jim1961
Dublin,
Texas
USA
Post Number: 21
Registered: Aug-07
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| Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 12:39 pm: |
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I agree Nuck. Its just that it isnt common knowledge to all what old stuff is fixable and whats not.
Surely most would agree that putting good money into something old and unfixable is a risky investment. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 11190
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 01:12 pm: |
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JL - You must work for an HMO.
If not, don't show that post to your kids. |
