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Thread: NAD C272 or T763 for Arro's? |
    
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 40
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 10:26 am: |
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Hi
I am back with my Arro's problem. I have T743 connected with totem tress cable to Arro's (all 1 year old), and 5 years old basic sound dynamics sub. Source is now mainly squeezebox with wav liblary on my pc, and sometimes sony cd player. I know everyone will tell me to change this but I will not! I have about 600 cd burned in WAV format and I love quick access and internet radio so this is out of question. I have tried many sugestions posted here, replacing these connectors with tress snipets, sand, beaks..... They still do not sound like they did in the srore. I just have bought another set of tress wire to bywire them but I was thinking looking at difrent posts that Arro's need power. C272 was sugested by local dealer $750 canadian tax in. Bit expensive for me now, also the shelf I have for equipment there will be no place on top for ventilation (not even 1/4 inch). As an alternative I can get longer cable to connect to 743 and place it in other place. Or try to get 763 and 743 as trade up. Any other solutions?
Thanks |
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Relevant Product Info
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Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 41
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 10:42 am: |
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Frank Abela to the rescue  |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 42
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 01:11 pm: |
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One more update. I just spoke to Totem rep John Heally.His opinion - neither NAD is fast enough to run Arro's - rated discharce. He suggested to move to Staff or change receiver to Arcam (A70-90) |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2054
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 03:34 pm: |
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John seems to know what he's saying. I agree that power is an issue here. The 763 would help things of course, but will it be enough for you is what I wonder. When you heard them in the store what did you hear them with? Perhaps that's what you're looking for?
Regards,
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 43
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 01:25 am: |
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Unfortunatelly with 4000 + Bryston so this is out of question. Jahn mentioned that it is not just a power he told me that even C272 will not be fast enough for arrows(discharge) he said that 743 I have would work nice with staff, so this is one possible upgrade or move to totally difrent amp/receiver. Well I can't just put 743 on the shelf and buy something else so what would you do? Move to Staff (600-700 upgrade) or add C272 750 upgrade(canadian dolars) |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2058
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 07:23 am: |
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The Sttaf is very different to the Arro. Some people like it, some don't. Personally, I would go for the bigger receiver because you gain other things than just power by improving the preamp stage. The 763 should have enough power and drive for the Arros. What's the chances of going to a T773 or - even better - an Arcam receiver like the AVR300?
Regards,
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 44
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 07:47 am: |
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NON
At this stage even 750 for me is a big streach. I just got another 80 feet of tress (I know it is long but this is the set up I have and can not change it)to biwire speakers - this was about $300. Even though I bought 743 last year there is already 744 so no chance to do trade in and I wouls loose too much when selling. So receiver has to stay. Either Staff or power amp and this 750 for C272 is already my MAX. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 45
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:04 am: |
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Frank what do you thing about this discharge? Is C272 to slow for Arro's? Would I - regular guy with regular townhome, furnished, not acoustic living room notice a diffrence? Am I going to gain a lot by buying it? If there is no WOW effect I will not spend this money |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2063
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 09:35 am: |
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I have no idea what you're on about with this discharge.
I suggested the 763 because you had mentioned this in your original post. The extra Tress may help a bit but it's not going to change things dramatically. Strictly speaking the 743 should have enough drive to power the Arros so I wonder if you really do need a change. Not sure what to suggest at this point...
Regards,
Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 46
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:25 am: |
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how fast amp is charging discharging curent
charge-discharge rate desired for elimination of small time duration interference
more or less
Arcan is much faster then NAD but $$$ |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2064
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:02 am: |
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Well, that may be, but I've not seen these rates published anywhere so I wouldn't know what the NAD would be like in comparison to the Arcams or anything else for that matter. I also find that preamp quality is more important to me, and the 743 is good but not great in that respect so I'm not sure if that is where your problem really lies... |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 47
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:11 am: |
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Thanks, I will bring Staff home today for a test to compare them with Arro's, The local dealer is still convinced that for my setup the best would be to live Arro's, 743 and get C272 ($750). Totem rep - live 743 and get Staff($500-600). Who do I believe?, I can try Staff but no C727 on demo. |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2065
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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Well, if you try the Sttaf and don't like them(possible), that will make your decision for you. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 1768
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:48 am: |
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Pablo,
What are your room acoustics like?
That could cause some of the problems?
Are the speakers plaed correctly?
Any chance the dealer will stop by and evaluate these? |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 1769
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:54 am: |
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Also, keep in mind that no matter what you do, your system will never sound as good as the one in the store. Unless you buy that exact system, you're going to have to accept compromises.
"I have tried many sugestions posted here, replacing these connectors with tress snipets, sand, beaks..... They still do not sound like they did in the srore"
The dealer didn't show you the speakers with your amp or comparable amp? That's pretty stupid of him if you ask me.
You really thought that the speakers will sound as good in your home, even though you're running a receiver wich is about a quarter of the price of the amp that was running them in the store? That's not realistic at all.
I'm not trying to insult or you belittle you Carlos. I think maybe you should re-evaluate your expectations of what you're trying to accomplish.
Have you heard the Arros with your or comnparable amplification in the dealer's shop? |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 48
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 01:11 pm: |
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Stu, Not much I can do with acoustics or placement - regular townhome with 5 year old son running and playing, if the speakers are too exposed, well I am asking for accident. I don't want to compare Briston to low end NAD and sources but you know how it is you always hope you can have something better with budget you have. That is why I want to do something that will make a diffrence. At this stage $$ I can squeeze it will be between Staff - they improve them last year and 743 will be sufficient to run them or c272 probably if I stick with Arro's. Just did double cables lat night did not connected them yet so I will test today if biwireing did something.
Pablo |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6892
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 04:53 pm: |
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Pablo, bi-wire is a subtle change(if any), but I hope you like it. |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 1774
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:27 pm: |
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Have you considered a used Bryston amp for the fronts? Audiogon or a Canadian variation may be helpful.
The 2B-LP is their smallest and usually most affordable amp. Even though it may not appear so on paper (I believe about 60 watts), that amp will power just about anything. I've read that that amp will run Arros very well.
Also, Bryston has a 20 year transferrable warrantee, which means you'll have the remainder of the warrantee if you buy one. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6904
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:38 pm: |
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http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/classifieds/allb |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6905
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:41 pm: |
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http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/search.php?submit=1&keywords=Bryston |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 49
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:04 am: |
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OK just finished Arro's/Staff listening session at my home connected to 743 Arro to B, Staff to A. With exception of very few cd's Staff did not stand a chance with Arro!!! Arro's have more details, clearity, more forward speaker. Staff - more base and wider but also more like trough membrane as if you would put hand over you mouth when speaking.
But when I played A+B Staff and Arro together - I WAS BLOWED AWAY!!! NEVER HEARD SUCH A SOUND And it was only nad 743 no sub, squeezebox as a source reading WAV from my pc.Unbelievable. They complement each other, Arro - more front pointing details in highs cristal, Staff wide and base WOW
But this would be about 1500 canadian and I would lose B speakers on backyard/hot tub.
So trade Arro for Staff - not an option any more. Adding Staff now - no $$, Would totem sub do a job of Staff??
get C272 - $750
trade 743 (the dealer would suprisingly take it back and give me full credit) and get - new ARCAM AVR280 - $1100 canadian.This last option is very temting especially that I would get full $$ for year old 743 and AVR280 at almost cost. Still it is a lots of money for me now.
Pablo
The interesting offer I got was |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2067
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 07:22 am: |
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Pablo,
I am not surprised. Unless you have the $1100 Canadian, don't listen to the Arcam because you'll want it! Very simple really...
Very good deal from the dealer.
Regards,
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 50
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:50 am: |
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DONE! not idea how I will pay visa but AVR280 should be home by the weekend, I was able to get also totem claws for Arro's free! Frank how do you install them one center and 2 all the way back on sides? Do I use these balls or not? Is it more stable without balls? (5 year old son) I will byamp them and use 10 year old cheap kenwood receiver as second zome to power outdor O'Mage speakers. I hope it will be a significant difrence byampig Arro's with 280 vs nad743
Pablo |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2074
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 10:11 am: |
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Pablo! I thought I warned you NOT to listen unless you can afford it.
I have never used Claws on the Arro so I'm not sure about the configuration. I do know from my experience with using them on other Totems that you should use them with the balls. They don't sound as good without them. Stability is about the same IIRC. A 5 year old son will drop Arros with or without balls no problem...
I expect you will find a big difference with the AVR280. Let us know how you get on! Also, try the Sony CD player, both as analogue as well as transport (digital connection). You may get some interesting results.
Regards,
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Jaw
Post Number: 98
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 06:58 pm: |
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All, great thread; enjoyed it. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6939
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 07:16 pm: |
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Good advise, Frank, but you knew Pablo was doomed...doomed you told him! |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 51
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 10:38 pm: |
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avr280 will arrive probably Monday, can't wait, Arro's with claws and beak on top look very good. Just a question. I took out of storage old Kenwood KR-A4080 receiver with initial thought to connect it to AVR280 to 2 zone out. This is for my backyard. I have O'Mage outdoor speakers around hot tub. I have a townhouse with 7X7 meters backyard with neighbors around so I never play loud and do not need anything special there. I will biamp Arro’s using 6th and 7th channel (B speakers) on Arcam. As for a source I have slimdevices squeezebox and Sony 200 cd changer. Since second zone in Arcam takes only analog I will have squeezebox connected to Arcam via coax, and Sony cd via optical. In this situation I have to also run analog cables from squeezebox and cd to Arcam, and connect Arcam with Kenwood. Is there a benefit to this? Or should I just run digital connection between my 2 sources to the Arcam and analog straight to the Kenwood without using Arcam? If I want music on backyard - I will just use a source and Kenwood receiver without powering up Arcam. What is better?
Pablo |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4613
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 11:27 pm: |
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Looks like there is a desperate need for a source upgrade. Like the squeezebox with a good DAC but the Sony changer...... |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 52
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 12:16 am: |
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it is just convinience, my wife is using sony, I have burned all cd's (over 500 in wav)to PC and using squeezebox. I know this is the weak point but .... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4615
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 12:27 am: |
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As long as your not using the Sony with the Arro's for real listening...the Totem police would have to visit..lol! |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2078
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:57 am: |
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Pablo
Difficult to say which will be better since some sources may sound better using the Arcam's built-in DAC whereas others might sound better using their own. You need to give it a whirl to figure out which is the better solution.
Regards,
Frank. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 53
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 01:33 pm: |
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Frank
Not sure if I am wrong but as indicated in manual for second zone I have to make analog connections so Arcam's DAC is not used in this case right? So for squeezebox when connected to Arcam via coax - the Arcam DAC is user for main zone Arro's, but for second zone I have to make another connection using analog cable so in this case squeezebox's DAC is used right? I think I will just connect squeezebox and sony cd digitally to Arcam and analog to Kenwood for backyard (like I said it is not crucial listening) and save secong zone for future (upstairs)
Thanks for help, waiting for a call from a dealer! |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 54
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 07:47 am: |
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OK, now there is WOW effect!!! Arro's biamp with Arcam AVR280 are briliant! Sqeezebox conected via coax reading wav as a main source, totem tress cable, took the old sub out, Arro's in the corners toed in on claws with balls, and beaks - this is a dream set up for me and it sounds great. With bi amping and corner placing Arro's have (one would never believe!) lots of base, and my sub was not needed.
thank you all for help, I will put some pictures soon.
Pablo |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2082
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 11:29 am: |
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Phew! I am very relieved since I was rather worried that you'd jumped in with both feet...
Depending on their distance apart, Arros don't need much toe-in. If you toe-in too much the bass becomes more prominent and at the same time, the timing gets slower. It's worth playing around with it a bit.
Regards,
Frank. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6999
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:58 pm: |
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Good job with Pablo, guy's! |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 55
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:13 am: |
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Frank, Nuck - and anybody else help!
Now we are entering diffrent ligue! In basement for my HT I have 5y old panasonic all in one HT (I know but after Arcam have to take a breake for a while)There are 5 satelite speakers and sub. I have already changed front speakers for my 4 y old bookshelf - sound dynamisc RTS-1. Already big improvement. I also have sound dynamics RTS-800 sub but how to use it? the panasonic all in one HT has speaker type sub out connection (L, R) and is marked as 6 ohms (so are other speakers) and this is how the panasonic sub is connected just 2 wires L,R. So the only way I see to use it is to run speaker wires from left and right output on panasonic HT box to Sound dynamic sub and tie the ends together with L, R front speakers. So Front speakers are connected to sub - same terminals as the speaker wire going from HT box. Or just forget it? If this works would I use both subs?, Like I said there is no more mony in the budget and I do not want to burn anything.
thanks guys |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 7042
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 06:19 pm: |
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Pablo, the speaker outputs from the Panasonic go to both the front speakers and the sub.
ie: each post(or clip) from the panny will have 2 wires. One goes to the speaker+, one goes to the sub+.
You can also use the speaker connections for the double wiring.
All parts are made for this, no damage will occur.
Nuck |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 56
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
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ok just to be sure from panasonic LF - 2 double cables. One goes to front left +,- speaker and other to left +, - sub input. Do I keep panasonic sub connected already to subwoofer in or take it out?
what is double wiring? the bookshelfs just have +- (not like arror's)
 |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 7061
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:38 am: |
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The unit must be for Canada, as it has French and not Spanish, eh?
Remove the present sub wire.
Double the present wire connections to the front speakers, and run those 2 pair to the speaker level in on the sub.
Good photo's are helping a lot, man. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 57
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:39 am: |
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there we go thanks again
 |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 58
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:41 am: |
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yes I live in Ottawa
so remove panasonic sub? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 7063
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
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yep, just add the new one, wired as described.
Nice setup.
I dig the big head with the Arro's. |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 59
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:49 am: |
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Thanks Again everyone from this and previous threads.
And thank you Stephan from STEREO PLUS in Ottawa. You took all my money but it was worthed!
Any one wants good prices - contact me.
Pablo |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 7064
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:48 am: |
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good prices on what, Pablo?
email me, please |
Gold Member Username: Stu_pitt
Irvington,
New York
USA
Post Number: 1800
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:21 pm: |
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Pablo,
I hope you're enjoying everything.
Also, that statue blends very well with the Totem theme! |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 60
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:40 am: |
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Good prices on Audio, video from Stereo Plus in Ottawa.
Pablo |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2099
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 09:27 am: |
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Pablo,
Fabulous furniture!
Some suggestions for you:
1. I don't thik it's wise to have the squeezebox right on top of the Arcam. If it has to stay there, make sure it is not obscuring any vents if possible. Otherwise I'd put it on the lnext level above if possible.
2. Have you tried the Beak on the outside corners? That's where Vince always places the Beaks if only using one pair. (Vince recommends one pair per speaker - it makes a small but worthwhile difference - maybe Christmas present?)
3. I imagine that the bass is quite accentuated with the speaker so close to the corner. If you pull it out just 3 or 4 inches (and toe it in slightly less), you may get a more balanced result.
Regards,
Frank. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 7082
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:04 pm: |
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A picture really IS worth a thousand words!
Pablo, did you deal with Terry at Stereo Plus? |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 61
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:35 pm: |
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thanks Frank, I will try these sugestions
squeezebox can go next to Arcam but it is really small thing Dimensions: 7.6"W x 3.7"H x 3.1"D (192mm x 93mm x 80mm) including stand
pablo |
Bronze Member Username: Pablo
Post Number: 62
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:45 pm: |
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Stephan - he is the main guy there, right under the owner |
