| Author |
Thread: Potential mains upgrade -Bookshelfs at $300 or so. |
    
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 1
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 07:22 pm: |
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Currently I'm running a pair of JBL E60s for my main speakers. I love their impact in the higher frequencies, but the recessed mids have been growing more troubling for me.
I think I'll be looking at bookshelf types primarily with an upper limit of about $300 for a pair.
Ones that have caught my eye so far are (in no particular order):
B&W DM303
B&W DM600 S3
Energy C-100
Energy C-200
Epos ELS3
JM Labs Chorus 705
JM Labs Chorus 706
KEF iQ1
KEF iQ3
Music will be the priority, although casual HT usage is a must. Upper extension with impact is a draw to me, without much imbalance. The ability to get a fair priced matching center channel in the future would be nice. Bang for the buck is pretty important considering the rather skimp budget.
Would any of the above offer a particularly noticeable upgrade? I have a good quality sub already so the low-end is of little concern to me.
I haven't been able to audition any and probably won't be able to (I pretty much live in the middle of nowhere).
Any thoughts, suggestions, and impressions of the above are appreciated |
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Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4487
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:00 pm: |
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What amp are you using? |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 2
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:26 pm: |
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I'm using a vintage Technics 130W per channel amp for my mains, and for my receiver I'm using a Pioneer 816-K. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4490
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 06:38 am: |
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Paradigm Atom Monitors, Energy or Focal should be easy to drive. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 3
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:29 am: |
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So would the Focal Chorus 705 S be good? Under max power handling it lists 65W . . . would this be the max amplification power too? Would I need to worry about frying them with my amp or . . . ? |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4493
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 06:52 pm: |
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That's why there is a volume control. Better too much power than too little. Hopefully you are listening to these speakers...best way to know what will work for you. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6655
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 07:46 pm: |
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Drew, that vintage Technics would be hard pressed to deliver 65w of useable power anyhow.
When it sounds awful, turn it down. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 4
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:39 pm: |
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"Drew, that vintage Technics would be hard pressed to deliver 65w of useable power anyhow."
I hate to disagree with you on that one. I know what my amplifier is capable of, and it's more than capable of delivering 130W usable power continuous per channel with distortion well below .01% THD (I've used it on speakers even more inefficient than my JBLs. I know, hard to believe but true :P). It was from Technics glory days when they made some of the best quality amps you could find.
"When it sounds awful, turn it down."
Will do ^_^ |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4495
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:43 pm: |
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No, don't let it get to the point that it sounds awful...by then you're well on your way to a "damage done" situation. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4496
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:47 pm: |
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BTW, I'm not sure what glory days you are talking about with Technics amps but I owned one their receivers 25-30 yrs ago and it was awful. To this day it's the worst amp I've owned...totally gutless. I will assume that you know of what you speak and take you at your word...but I'm still curious about those glory days. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 5
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:53 pm: |
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"BTW, I'm not sure what glory days you are talking about with Technics amps but I owned one their receivers 25-30 yrs ago and it was awful. To this day it's the worst amp I've owned...totally gutless. I will assume that you know of what you speak and take you at your word...but I'm still curious about those glory days."
They didn't start making really good quality stuff until the 90's, which really kicked up a notch around 91. They're probably one of the largest Hi-Fi and DJ product manufactures still around in Japan today.
25-30 years ago probably wouldn't be the best example of what their better quality stuff is like ^_- |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6664
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:22 pm: |
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'91 is 'vintage'?
Is it getting old in here or is it just me?
Does it have a clipping lamp?
Largest yadda yadda...
Drew, you oughtta shop.
Good luck. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6665
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:26 pm: |
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And THD is a useless figure.
Try IMD.
What does the technics weigh(honestly), and what type of transformer/power supply does it employ?
What does the power consumption label say?
Or, if all else fails, what is the model?
I ain't raggin' on your receiver, just a hobby. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 6
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:37 pm: |
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"'91 is 'vintage'?"
Well, it's been over 15 years and the technics brand hasn't been seen in the US in ages except for specific pieces of equipment.
"Is it getting old in here or is it just me?"
Wouldn't know, I haven't been here that long.
"What does the technics weigh(honestly),"
I'd say about 20lbs or so.
"What does the power consumption label say?"
AC 60Hz, 355W, 485VA
As for the model, it's a SU-G90 |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6669
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:55 pm: |
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The chorus 705 has reviewed well, and your receiver should drive it without strain, as it is a stable 8ohm load, with little phase shift. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 7
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:58 pm: |
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"The chorus 705 has reviewed well, and your receiver should drive it without strain, as it is a stable 8ohm load, with little phase shift."
Good to hear, now I'm just waiting another week or so for my income tax return :D |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6670
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:02 pm: |
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Drew, can you get to hear some of you choices listed? |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 8
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:13 pm: |
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"Drew, can you get to hear some of you choices listed?"
Some I can. I can get a listen in on some B&W and Energies. I'm SOL when it comes to get a listening on some Focal, Epos, and KEF as far as I know (unfortunately the brands I really wanted to listen to). |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4498
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:26 pm: |
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Well Drew I have to agree with Nuck, ya need to do some shoppin' man. A '91 Technics ain't so good. I'm glad you're enjoying it because that's all that really matters. As far as speakers go I would look at the Energy C series. Very efficient and go very well with high watt low current amps like Yamahas and yours. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 9
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:41 pm: |
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"Well Drew I have to agree with Nuck, ya need to do some shoppin' man. A '91 Technics ain't so good."
But is it bad? I would say it's better than the credit you're giving it. What would I have to pay to get something actually better than it? $150, $180, $200+?
Considering I got it with a full cabinet setup for $60 in excellent condition from the thrift shop I used to work at (None of the issues like A/B not working or messed up volume knobs. No dents, dings, scratches. Good previous owner.) I can only say it's been an exceptional bang for the buck.
Also note, I'm purely using it as an amp. If it's superfluous with my Pioneer 816-K I'll take it out, but so far it's been doing good.
"As far as speakers go I would look at the Energy C series. Very efficient and go very well with high watt low current amps like Yamahas and yours."
Just because it fits the equipment, doesn't mean it fits the sound I'm looking for ^_- |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4499
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:28 pm: |
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Well Drew, have you said what sound you're looking for...it seems that you wanted to know what went with your gear...not being clairvoyant I can't predict what your next question will be.
Frankly I never understood taking home junk just because it's cheap and calling "bang for buck". Either it's good or not regardless of what you paid for it. If it's good and you paid very little for it then that's what I call "bang for buck". If it's cheap and sounds cheap then so be it.
"Also note, I'm purely using it as an amp. If it's superfluous with my Pioneer 816-K I'll take it out, but so far it's been doing good."
Please translate.
You stated that you wanted speakers for mostly music. I have listened to the Energy C series speakers with music on a low current amp. The sound was rather pleasing. Not bright, not dull and lifeless, if you're looking for something else, do tell. |
New member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 10
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:13 am: |
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"Well Drew, have you said what sound you're looking for...it seems that you wanted to know what went with your gear..."
I did say what sound I liked. Regardless, primarily good upper extension with impact, not to the level of Klipsch level like dissection (best way I can describe it), but up there.
"Frankly I never understood taking home junk just because it's cheap and calling "bang for buck". Either it's good or not regardless of what you paid for it. If it's good and you paid very little for it then that's what I call "bang for buck". If it's cheap and sounds cheap then so be it."
Good, then I got bang for the buck. I've gone back in the forum archives and there's some that hate them and some that love them. Quite frankly, I don't buy amps to make my speakers "musical". I buy them to power my speakers for clear reproduction. I did my research before buying it, and I love the implication you seem to be heading towards calling it "junk".
Do you have first hand experience with the amp in question? You have one from the 80's, great. That's probably when their amps were at their lowest. Tell me when you've had experience with one from the 90's, and then compare it to some with equivalent power in the $300 or less category and then label it "junk".
Better yet, I'll listen to some when I go up to audition some of the speakers (hopefully this weekend, but may be next).
Really though, unless you can actually dictate why it's "junk" besides subjective tastes then please refrain from unnecessary stabs at my gear. When I graduate from high school, get out of college, and have a job in computer forensics I'll make sure to ask for all the subjective and critical opinions on amps that cost $500-$1000 if not more. Until then though . . .
"Please translate. "
It means I'm using my actual receiver as a pre-amp and using the Technics as the actual amp. Would I be better off taking the Technics out in your opinion?
"You stated that you wanted speakers for mostly music. I have listened to the Energy C series speakers with music on a low current amp. The sound was rather pleasing. Not bright, not dull and lifeless, if you're looking for something else, do tell."
I want something with tight attack, a rather short but fair decay without a recessed sound, and as much upper extension as possible. I know, pretty high demands for the price range I'm looking at. One most likely shines though in comparison to the others. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4501
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:39 am: |
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Learn english Drew, I didn't say your stuff was junk. But just because you got it cheap at the thrift store does not make it "bang for buck" it just makes it cheap.
How much research did you do Drew. It didn't take me long with a google search to find folks who are very displeased with that amp. That doesn't mean its bad but it ain't a good sign.
Drew I've been enjoying audio since 1973 there really isn't a whole bunch that I haven't heard. Which includes 90's Technics gear. I don't like it...that doesn't make it bad it just means that I don't like it. However I also know what it sounds like. You aren't likely to get the sound you want from either your Pioneer or your Technics. Speakers regardless of their flavor aren't going to "attack" without the current to make that happen. You don't have it, that's why I pointed to the Energy speakers, they will give you a lot of sound with little current. There are plenty others out there as well that will provide the same benefits, that was just my suggestion.
Good luck to ya...
PS...regardless of our disagreement I'm always pleased to see young folks take an interest in audio, I hope that interest is only relative to how that audio makes you feel with your favorite music.
Good luck |
Bronze Member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 11
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:51 am: |
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"Learn english Drew"
I said you were heading towards an implication of calling it junk, or something like that. It's getting late.
"How much research did you do Drew. It didn't take me long with a google search to find folks who are very displeased with that amp. That doesn't mean its bad but it ain't a good sign."
Links? I've done plenty of research, and worse case I found people with failed volume knobs and fuses blown mostly. Given its age, I don't find it all that surprising. Other than that, I've found people on this very forum that have used them for reference testing in their shops. Doesn't make me right, and doesn't make you wrong, it's just what is/has been.
"Speakers regardless of their flavor aren't going to "attack" without the current to make that happen. You don't have it"
Then what's needed to make it happen so I don't end up wasting money. |
Bronze Member Username: Shane24
Post Number: 85
Registered: Mar-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 06:51 am: |
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Drew, as long as ur content with ur amp, its all that matters, apart from that google search and all.. b&W DM303,DM606, EPOS ls s3 would be ideal for ur amp.. 303 being the first choice..
since, u already have jbl e-60, in my opinion
check out jbl s36a w11 or studio series they are very detail, deep bass and overall sound is good..and well within ur budget... |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6676
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:20 am: |
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Remember that 303's are not magnetiaclly shielded
so keep them away from a tv. |
Bronze Member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 12
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:54 am: |
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"Remember that 303's are not magnetiaclly shielded so keep them away from a tv."
I noticed that, so I probably will be avoiding them. They would be right next to my TV in both my room and dorm in a few months.
"since, u already have jbl e-60, in my opinion"
I plan on selling them, I'm switching them out and looking for bookshelf speakers to make my mains.
"check out jbl s36a w11 or studio series they are very detail, deep bass and overall sound is good..and well within ur budget..."
The first suggestion is an outdoor speaker, and finding Studio series speakers seems a bit harder since they brought out the Studio L's (which seem to be out of my price range). |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4505
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:33 am: |
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Drew, if you like the sound of your Technics try the Energy C series speakers. All kidding aside they might work for you.
I disagree with Nuck because B&W and Epos speakers require considerably more grunt than do the Energy C series. If you can listen to the C series next to the RC series with a typical AVR, say a Denon or Onkyo you will notice the difference as far as sound quality and volume. It will sound as though the C series is a better speaker, it isn't but the AVR doesn't have the current to bring out the best in the RC where it is quite adequate for the C series. |
Bronze Member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 13
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:37 am: |
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"Drew, if you like the sound of your Technics try the Energy C series speakers. All kidding aside they might work for you.
I disagree with Nuck because B&W and Epos speakers require considerably more grunt than do the Energy C series. If you can listen to the C series next to the RC series with a typical AVR, say a Denon or Onkyo you will notice the difference as far as sound quality and volume. It will sound as though the C series is a better speaker, it isn't but the AVR doesn't have the current to bring out the best in the RC where it is quite adequate for the C series."
Question though . . . what would I have to use to match up an amp with say the Focal Chorus 705 S that I was looking at? What were you referring to in that my amp doesn't have enough current?
You've peaked my curiosity and google isn't providing enough info for me. |
Silver Member Username: Stefanom
Vienna,
VA
United States
Post Number: 468
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:42 am: |
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Current=Amperage
Current * Volts = Wattage
Volts = Current * Resistance
The reason current is important is because the resistance of speakers is not static. It goes up and down. When the resistance of a speaker goes down, it requires more current. Unfortunately, a lot of receivers are not built to deliver this current, so much as nice wattage ratings. This is why you see a lot of $200 "100 Watt" receivers. Meanwhile in reality, under a real world load, they can deliver maybe 10 or 20. |
Silver Member Username: Stefanom
Vienna,
VA
United States
Post Number: 469
Registered: Apr-06
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:46 am: |
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As far as amplification, a lot of it has to do with what you want to spend. From a basic electrical standpoint, I'd say something like a Harman Kardon stereo receiver would be a good starter at ~199. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4506
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:16 am: |
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Yep... |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6677
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:37 pm: |
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Stephen, while I cannot disobey ohms law, that does not reflect the difference between high/low current amplification.
I also say H/K.
Dirt cheap. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 4510
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:22 pm: |
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Yep... |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6685
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:48 pm: |
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Art,did you bump the needle? You skipped. |
Bronze Member Username: Shane24
Post Number: 86
Registered: Mar-07
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| Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 04:08 am: |
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drew, guess wht ur amp can drive b&W 800 series with no strain at all.. stop bragging abt ur amp man... either change it or don't... give me break here......... |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1560
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 01:46 am: |
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I really agree about the Epos els 3,they are a highend monitor with hiding at budget prices,that Technics,well make them sound like ten foil,they even made my Nad 320bbe's limits show quite evindently,the only Technics that sounded good was the SA-AX6&7 and they were a\v receivers.Young fella if i was you I would look on audiogon for a used Rega Brio,especially if music matters to you,it would make a great match with the els 3,you will have to spend a bunch on a reciever for els 3's to play good. |
Bronze Member Username: Shike
Newton,
Iowa
USA
Post Number: 14
Registered: Apr-07
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| Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 01:51 am: |
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Well, I actually ended up getting a pair of Focal Chorus 705's for a fair price.
My Technics has had no issues driving them and they sound great. |
