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Thread: General Discussion |
    
Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2137
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 01:00 am: |
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I thought we needed a thread on general discussion about audio.
This includes things like Synergy between components, how components react to each other, why we prefer what we do, music types, the pyramid sound, and all around general discussion.
There's a lot to it and I think it needed a general discussion where we can discuss all the aspects of audio.
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Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2150
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 06:28 am: |
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My personal audio preferences are around 85dB average level w/ stronger (much stronger) bass starting below 60hz or so (and strengthening as it goes lower) and to have a distinct sound I can't really describe. An example of this to me was the Paradigm Studio 60s (powered by 2 channels of 200w Rotel Power...BAM) paired with a ML Depth...wow that was awesome. It sounded like the speakers and sub weren't there when I listened to Coheed and Cambria - Welcome Home.
I also remember a time listening to some ML Summits and Descent...that was good too.
I also remember listening to the ML Descent paired with a pair of speakers, I don't remember which...but everytime I turned it up
Man, it was so transparent of the speakers. When I say good bass...I mean bass like the ML Descent. I'd buy that if I had unlimited funds..but I think I could get similar results with a Behringer EP-2500 powering some recreation of the ML Descent (probably 4-sided) or an IB.
Overall...it's really hard to describe the sound I like. I think I may go for a pair of Studio 60s (after a couple months more saving) and get the Pioneer Elite receiver later..I'll just have to see. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10116
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 10:50 am: |
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What's "the pyramid sound"? |
Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2173
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 11:29 am: |
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Oh sorry I must have picked that up from band.
The Pyramid Sound is where people like a balanced sound with more bass in it and less of what we're more sensitive to (basically it's Fletcher-Munson compensation). It's like you know the tuba plays louder to add foundation to the sound (bass in music?) and make it fuller. and so the flutes play soft, the trumpets louder, the trombones louder than that, and the tuba (ME! WHOOHOO!) gets to play as loud as he/she wants (except soft songs and below the distortion level of the instrument as well)!
Why do we get subwoofers? Gee I wonder. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10117
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 01:12 pm: |
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I think you need to re-read the FM effect thinking. It has nothing to do with a preference for low bass, something not all of us share to the same measure.
As to your examples of how instruments work, have you noticed the size of the instruments you're discussing? Yes, they are designed to perform as required in a form follows function sort of way, but it should be obvious a wind instrument with a longer throat and larger bell has the potential to play louder and lower than a flute shaped instrument. Lower frequency bass instruments tend to be large in order to support the frequency range they play in, not necessarily to add volume to the bass line. Adding the foundation means "underpinning" the music's line. Underpinning also means the instruments most often play at lower volumes than smaller instruments such as massed violins or violas. Do you listen to classical music, Andre?
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Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2180
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 01:16 pm: |
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I have trouble listening for more than a minute or so. It doesn't sound great (computer sound card...you know). I have an organ CD I like and that's the closest I've ever gotten. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10120
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 04:09 pm: |
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You should have someone explain to you how to listen to classical music, Andre, and then attend a few concerts in order to broaden your scope on sound quality. It's not all about bass and 120dB. Learn to listen before you do anything else. The numbers of hifi will still be there when you get back, but you need to hear things first.
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Silver Member Username: Davidpa
Portland,
Oregon
US
Post Number: 432
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 04:29 pm: |
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Beating a dead horse Jan?
We like you Andre (I think) as a whole here, but at what point do you take to heart the advise you are given? |
Silver Member Username: Gavdawg
Upstate,
New York
Post Number: 525
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 05:57 pm: |
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I'll admit that sometimes I like bassy music, but as a whole, Jan is correct. |
Bronze Member Username: Nout
Post Number: 81
Registered: Mar-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 06:03 pm: |
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I have trouble listening for more than a minute or so. It doesn't sound great (computer sound card...you know). I have an organ CD I like and that's the closest I've ever gotten.
Learning to like classical music has nothing to do with the system you play it on.
I have no trouble believing that your computer sound card sounds crap, but who cares? Just try to find some patience to sit and listen to some classical music. If you like it: great, if not, well no harm is done.
But more important: no one is forcing you to like classical music, there's absolutely no shame in disliking it and in my opinion no one needs to like it to make valid comments about how one experiences audio, sound and music. |
Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2196
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 06:16 pm: |
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Good point ^^^
I'll say that it's ok...but not really me. When I get older, my tastes may change. We'll see.
When you say bassy music...do you mean like rap (ech) or like heavy Drum and Bass in music? I prefer the latter. When I listen to music, I prefer it to sound full of life (DEEP powerful bass) with the flavor (is that the right word?) of a gorilla pounding it's chest...or ominous style. I'm thinking of a lot of songs, but I can't quite name them... |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10123
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 07:15 pm: |
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" ... with the flavor (is that the right word?) of a gorilla pounding it's chest ... "
I've never licked a gorilla. You have? |
Silver Member Username: Gavdawg
Upstate,
New York
Post Number: 530
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 07:23 pm: |
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Andre, I listen to almost everything including SOME rap, but I have to be in the mood for it and seldom listen to it. I only have a few cuts.
My music taste runs the gauntlet from jazz, smooth jazz, R&B, a little rap, pop, rock, alternative, vocal...pretty much you name it and I like it... except really heavy screaming rock.
Because my music taste is so wide, it is a nightmare for me to find equipment that "does it all" so to speak...lol
lucally, my MMG's serve me well. Just about the only thing I wish they would perform better in is the ability to re-create deep bass. But, like Jan said, not all of us value ultra deep, ultra loud bass, but more realistic bass. I don't listen to my music at a loud volume, and do have a subwoofer to suppliment my maggies when I feel it is necessary. |
Silver Member Username: Gavdawg
Upstate,
New York
Post Number: 531
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 07:28 pm: |
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"I'll admit that sometimes I like bassy music, but as a whole, Jan is correct."
By this I meant music driven by a bassline. Bad wording. |
Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2199
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 07:39 pm: |
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I only listen to the music at loud volume so that there is bass haha.
My definition of a song with good bass is where the bass adds a richness to the music like ambience, rumbles, etc. I've played some music and noticed my woofer cones moving in and out during playback and I wish I could have something that could do that. A sub is out of the market until I buy a receiver or speakers..
Lol Jan...um how about accent? |
Silver Member Username: Gavdawg
Upstate,
New York
Post Number: 532
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 07:49 pm: |
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"I only listen to the music at loud volume so that there is bass haha."
You can't get blood from a stone... |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6598
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 08:54 pm: |
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" ... with the flavor (is that the right word?) of a gorilla pounding it's chest ... "
I've never licked a gorilla. You have?
Blatant cherry picking, Vigne.
Excellent! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6599
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 08:55 pm: |
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I told yo guys that Billy is 12. right? |
Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2203
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 09:43 pm: |
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I don't support this one bit. |
Gold Member Username: Arande2
Extreme SQ FTW
Post Number: 2205
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 10:07 pm: |
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Nah it's alright I have it on DVR (Music Vid.) and when I had a sub it shook my walls a good bit, but it wasn't that high output range of my system (and when I watched the oscilloscope it was just straight sine waves).
Although...one song I can get pretty strong bass impulses on is Never Die from Creed. I turned my JBLs and KLHs on, then turned the receiver to -1..it distorted...so I turned off the JBLs and I played it again. It didn't distort and the driver gets really close to its limits, but doesn't quite get there (good thing!).
Yeah I like those songs that have that impulsive bass (gorilla beating chest?). |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10126
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 11:53 am: |
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"Straight" sine waves, Andre? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6606
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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I am not sure I want to discuss Generals.
Perhaps leftenants. |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10127
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 01:11 pm: |
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Billy, what's with the insults and foul language? Either be decent to others or get the hell off the forum. |
Silver Member Username: Gavdawg
Upstate,
New York
Post Number: 543
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
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Jan, I think that Billy is using another username...
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/342437.html |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10130
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 05:24 pm: |
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Don't care what name he uses. He either cuts the crap or he gets whacked. |
Silver Member Username: Gavdawg
Upstate,
New York
Post Number: 546
Registered: Nov-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 05:51 pm: |
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I agree...just making the suggestion that he may be a troll |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10137
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 07:02 pm: |
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Ya'think?! |
Platinum Member Username: Project6
Post Number: 13652
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 10:56 pm: |
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User just got banned. |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Post Number: 109
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 11:00 pm: |
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Thank you |
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 10142
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 11:49 pm: |
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WHACK!!!
George is right, it feels good. |
Silver Member Username: Davidpa
Portland,
Oregon
US
Post Number: 440
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:27 am: |
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BE GONE! PEASANT
And Now, Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
March on guys! |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2005
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:56 am: |
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Andre,
FWIW, systems which accent the bass a little are often described as warm. Those that overdo the bass are simply wrong. Your descriptions indicate that you, along with many North Americans, prefer a warm presentation.
Now, this is fine so long as you understand what you're saying and accept the limitations of a system like that. Many systems of this ilk sound big, expansive and easy to listen to, as if they have a safety net that will always catch you. However, it's often the case that warm systems lose the snap and attack of real music. The reason for this is that they often blur the leading edge of a bass line (sometimes you can't even make out the bass line). This slows the timing and makes the bass sound like it's following the rest of the piece, instead of driving it forward (as in real life).
On the other side of the coin, you get systems which are called bright. These (increasingly less common) systems accentuate treble, which gives the impression of space and air, a wider, deeper soundstage and quite a bit of definition and tonal accuracy in the midrange/treble so woodwind, brass and most stringed instruments come across with loads of colour. The problem with this type of system very often is a lack of bass drive and attack once again, with the bass following the rest of the piece due to its lack of definition. As you can see from the description, these systems are very often more sympathetic to the Classical listener because of the extra tonal detail.
Both these types of system are inherently flawed because both offer a skewed view of the world, and the worst thing about them is that they are more adept at playing certain types of music than others, which restricts the listening pleasure of the listener to certain genres. What is becoming increasingly common is a move towards neutrality - systems which try to remain largely neutral in presentation between bass and treble. By bringing in the bass that is on the disc at the right time and in the right amounts, the leading edge of the bass line comes in time with the leading edges of midrange and treble instruments. This has big benefits on pace, rhythm and timing which aids in musical structure and overall coherence. It's not necessarily as pleasant, and it isn't a safe sound so it can unnerve some people because they don't have the warm safety net. It's quite interesting to watch potential customers fidget when they encounter a neutral system for the first time and a track they think has bass comes on with little or no bass at all. They almost get uncomfortable until they switch onto what the neutral system is doing.
I've spoken here in absolutes, but in fact every system and every component in a system leans one way or the other, and people build their systems depending on their individual tastes, experience and musical preferences, which is why their systems change over time. I favour a slightly warm presentation myself, but only very slightly. I used to favour quite warm systems, then moved to a snappier solution. Perhaps my latest choices reflect the fact I'm 42 and feeling my age...
Regards,
Frank. |
Silver Member Username: Stryvn
Post Number: 111
Registered: Dec-06
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| Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 12:46 pm: |
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Shucks.
Have I got a lot to learn. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6614
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:58 pm: |
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Funny, I'm feeling your age as well. Frank! |
Gold Member Username: Frank_abela
Berkshire
UK
Post Number: 2015
Registered: Sep-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 01:21 pm: |
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Hmm, but are you my age? That's the question. And what are these damned aches and pains in places I never used to know exist??? |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 4657
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 02:33 pm: |
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Excellent post, young Frank.
Give me "neutral" every time. I want the music, not the system.
I am recently returned from the antipodes, and missed the Billy post. It sounds like I was in luck.
Andre, there was a thread called "Do you listen", started by Jan.
The first archive was the best. You can track it only from the most recent. An odd feature of this forum.
Do you listen |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 6624
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 08:40 pm: |
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42, Frank. For me they come from Hockey and Lacrosse, mostly.(In fact the multiple surgeries).
Oh, and airports!
SOAB I hate airports.
Although 42 beats the other options... |
