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Thread: Archive through June 23, 2006 |
    
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1501
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 08:59 am: |
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Margie: welcome back! With SM (our other regular Forum-lady) off somewhere in outer space the Forum lacks that certain gentility that a woman's presence affords. (not to mention logic! GRIN)
Be here more often, please. |
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Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 4274
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 01:55 pm: |
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I agree with all comments. The guy who posted the pics should be in prison. I do not have much experience with forums (surely "fora"). What do moderators do? Read every post before deciding whether it is allowed? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 2991
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 04:47 pm: |
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I just checked, something to be straigtened out.
Hold, please. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 8686
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
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"you've got children. What if they had accessed the Forum when the pics were seemingly everywhere? How do you explain that?"
How do you explain s-e-x? Or, how do you explain someone who prefers to infest an internet forum with such pictures? Either way, I would hope as a parent you have answers for both situations. You will need them someday.
Gentlemen, I don't approve of what was done to this forum. Posting those pictures is the action of a person with a lack of respect for others and who enjoys the idea it might offend or place someone in an awkward position. That they went no further than posting photos is something we should all hope for.
I only scanned through the threads to find where the pictures began and ended, so I really am unaware of what the nature of the photos extended to. Most of what I noticed involved human bodies engaged in actions which produce the very children you wish to protect from any knowledge of such actions.
I understand everyone being upset. And my intent is not to scold anyone for being offended. But, how would you explain this to a child or teenager? Would you label the photos as obscene? You know where I'm headed with this; don't you? What if the photos were of dead bodies blown to pieces by a bomb? Or, possibly cruelty to animals? Which would be worse? Which would you rather your children not see? How would you explain any or all? You can't hope to keep your children from knowing such actions occur. And, I certainly hope you don't try to keep your children from knowing there are people who take joy in imposing their will upon others.
Whether you have children or not, it seems to me you should not be so upset at the photos themself. But, how do you explain to a young person the meaning of s-e-x as portrayed in the photos or of a bomber's mad intent? They will see it or know about it sooner or later. You can't protect yourself or your children from the realities of the world. This is not the first time this has happened on the forum and, unfortunately, it will not be the last. We come to this forum of our own free will and we take the chance of having this happen again. Do we label the photos obscene and fume over the invasion of our privacy? Does that do justice to the photos or serve any purpose in the future?
I assume no one was physically hurt by the photos. That might not be the case if you find yourself or your child in a real world situation where harm is intended. That a person who posts such pictures might escalate their desire to control other people reactions is something I'm more afraid of than photos.
"The guy who posted the pics should be in prison."
Once again you can call me a wild-eyed liberal, but I don't think that's the right place for someone who wishes to play with other people's emotions in this fashion. Not yet, at least. I hope the administrator takes these episodes more seriously than just deleting posts and banning ISP addresses. But, if we are going to live in a free society we should be prepared for intrusions into our lives and our comfort zone. The question, as I see it, is not whether the administrator acted quickly enough. On this forum there aren't many things which stop such a predator from entering uninvited. The question should be how are we equipped to deal with such intrusions. Railing against the administration of the forum isn't the right course IMO. We made our choice when we clicked the address bar to come here. I was quite discouraged to find the photos when I got here. But, I chose to come here. |
Gold Member Username: Rick_b
Orlando,
FL
Post Number: 1380
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
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OK, you're a wild eyed liberal, but in this case I have to agree with you. I too was sad to see what was posted, but I also chose to come here, and won't be run off by a renegade poster who only wishes to shock the unsuspecting. |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1504
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 09:04 pm: |
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All: I think the point raised by so many of the Dawgs is this: the offensive material remained on not just one, but most of the threads for a LONG period of time. And when many of us e-mailed Admin, we got either no answer or a generic "working on it" answer - which many of us have gotten many times in the past.
Most of us come here for information, "party line" chat and general entertainment. We choose to come here because we (usually) feel "wanted." And we try (usually) to maintain some degree of civility.
That part is rather self-regulating. It is the second, and more sinister, part that concerns me. As I understand it, other forums manage to set up filters of one sort or another. My questions are: 1 - how difficult would that be? And 2 - why can't this be done on eCoustics, as well as others?
And yes, Jan, you are a wild-eyed Liberal! OK? (triple grin here)
Respectfully. . .LarryR |
Silver Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 614
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 10:33 pm: |
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I know I said I wouldn't be back until the administrator took affirmative action to stop these obscene postings, but I feel the need to add another 2cents worth here before I disappear.
First, where is this "free society" Jan mentions? Society isn't free. Not only does it cost to live in our society, but we have rules to prevent chaos and anar*chy and we agree that those who break those rules should pay the price.
And second, the morality bar was lowered a long time ago and the world suffers for it now. The bar keeps getting lowered - because we allow it - and the world has to contend with more deprevation stuffed into its face. If this sort of obscenity is okay and easily explained to your children, well that's great. Me, I think children should enjoy their innocence for as long as possible before the crap we allowed to happen hits them in the face.
As for the culprit(s) spending prison time - perhaps there is no other way to teach these animals - that's what they are to me. We see animals in the naked form with all their indignity - what seperates us from them? Do we really have to accept this is just something we have to contend with it because we switch on our computers.
The adiminstrator should WAKE UP!
anar*chy - we can't use this word but we can have po-rn shoved in faces for hours on end. Ha! |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1511
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 11:53 pm: |
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Rantz: you raise a most interesting point here, sir. On this forum, we are blocked when we try to type in s_ex or p_orno or anar@chy - yet degrading pictures come through without a hitch! Something is very wrong here, gents!
Respectfully. . .LarryR |
Silver Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 615
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 12:19 am: |
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Larry - I see your message waiting to be opened. Will pm you soon. Thanks and take care.
One more thing ladies and gents - my forthcoming absence is not because of the po-rn, it is about the lack of action by the administrator to prevent it - or at least get rid of it asap when it appears. A useless protest seeing as how it is a solitary one, nevertheless I doth protesteth all the same.
Till we meet again.
Somewhere, beyond the sea . . . |
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Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 4275
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 02:20 am: |
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It is good to read the various views of Old Dogs. There is not much to disagree with.
I am just puzzled by what could have been done, in practical terms. Admin cleared up the first batch and then there was another, under a different name.
I will soon click "post message" and you get my opinion; no-one screens it, first. That is a valuable feature of the forum. It means that others, with other objectives, can abuse this freedom.
A few practical points.
1) If you don't want those graphics on your computer, clear the browser's cache.
2) The most offensive and corrupting material could probably be safely be buried from children's view by posting on an audio forum, which is, for them, the most boring place imaginable. So no worries on that question, when it is taken at face value.
3) Our children, at least, have their own accounts on the computer I use.
The material was offensive and potentially corrupting. I agree with MR on that. I do think law should protect freedoms, including that of parents to protect their children from exposure to corrupting material. I can explain why I think stuff like that can be described as "corrupting". So, yes, prison for that guy, please. He is not furthering any defensible cause. Or even trying to.
In the end, I vote for Jan and Rick.
And it is a pleasure to find they agree, at last! |
Gold Member Username: Rick_b
Orlando,
FL
Post Number: 1381
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 06:18 am: |
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In the end, I vote for Jan and Rick.
Yeah! That's the ticket. LOL!
Whatever do you mean John? Jan and I agree on many things, and others, not so much. Pretty normal stuff I would think.
As for your vote to throw him in prison, I vote NO WAY. Overcrowded now, and a waste of my tax dollar. I vote we just shoot him in the kneecaps............................. |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1513
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 09:23 am: |
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Rick: I was thinking of aiming a tad higher? Hmm. . . .
Rantz: If you read this - well, you have my e-mail, sir. Please write, at least.
And I think y'all are great - even when disagreements arise. A very good education for me, and I thank all of you for it. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 8692
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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"First, where is this "free society" Jan mentions?"
It is wherever such "information" is allowed to exist. When everything you see, hear or think is controlled by a greater, wiser "society", especially those moments which are private between individual persons, then you do not have a free society. You have totalitarianism. Discrimination is a powerful tool to be weilded by a few.
When how you use the information you are provided is left to the individual, there is a free society. If the information can only be disseminated by a few selected individuals, there is no real freedom. Which society do you choose to be where you must live your life? There are other forums which provide such "security". At the moment you are free to choose one of those other forums. Yet you return here. Should you choose another, you must exist under someone else's rules.
The point I wished to make, and that has once again been "misconscrewed", is you must instill a sense of human dignity that extends to all people not just a few who agree with your point of view. Or, some would say, you must pay the cost of your freedoms. If you can find a society or a forum where neither extreme, freedom or absolute control, exists, please let everyone know.
"If this sort of obscenity is okay and easily explained to your children, well that's great. Me, I think children should enjoy their innocence for as long as possible before the crap we allowed to happen hits them in the face."
By reading your statement you seem to be saying a free society is an "obscenity". I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but none the less, I would hope you can teach your children the difference between what is morally corrupt and what is morally correct. And, that you alone are not the sole abritrator for someone else. I think we all agree posting the photos on the forum was more "corrupt" than "correct" but do not set up a straw man which is too easily attacked and torn down.
I would, however, appreciate someone pointing out where anyone said that posting those photos on this forum was "OK". Or, that teaching your children such things exist, either what was posted or what constitutes a free society, would be easy. Freedom is never easy.
Finally, Rantz, you've never stated you have children. But, should that be the case, after reading that statement I sincerely hope no one offers them candy or asks them to help find their lost puppy. Children need the knowledge that less than perfectly intentioned people want to do them harm.
I can't help but think knowledge is a tool. Blindness to the facts is nothing more than accepted ignorance. How to use a tool correctly is up to the person who wields the implement. A skilled craftsman can make something beautiful with simple tools.
I support your choice to boycot the forum until rules are changed. This forum is far from perfect. The censorship rules are a farce. As I've said before I can post the word "screw" but not the word "g-a-y". Which is potentially more offensive?
However, the exchange of ideas and beliefs posted on this forum are the direct result of the freedoms we share by choosing to come here. No one screens what is posted before it can go on the forum. That fact offers a freedom and a level of interchange which permits much of what we have enjoyed (?) here at Old Dogs. That it brings the ocassional affront to our sense of dignity is the price we pay. Society may not be free in your limited sense of the word, but this forum is free.
Finally, what an unfortunate time for all this to happen. Just as the "loon-er" cycle is once again at it's peak. That does explain quite a bit of what happens here. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2737
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 01:37 pm: |
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I say SHOOT em!
YEP. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 4277
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 02:31 pm: |
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And slowly.
Jan;- You get my vote!
Getting serious - "The point I wished to make.... is you must instill a sense of human dignity that extends to all people..."
Absolutely.
The point about those pics, imho, is they turn other people into a means to an end - they dehumanize, and degrade. In an area of human life where privacy and mutual trust is an absolute requirement. One day our children will need to have something of themselves to give in privacy and trust. We look after them until they can look after themselves. That's not censorship. that's love.
Now, the question - what do you do with people who set out to demean & degrade other people....? Who couldn't give a .... for the wellbeing and freedoms of others? Especially the vulnerable? Do you protect their freedom to take other people's freedom away....?
"Shoot 'em".
That's the hard-line liberal view.
"Be kind to 'em, they're misunderstood" - soft-liberal view - then they just try harder to demean and degrade. And may succeed.
There is also "chop 'em into pieces and feed to the seagulls". But what did the seagulls do to deserve that, I've always wondered. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 3391
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 03:52 pm: |
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My objection to the pics being posted here has very little if anything to do with morals or values. I have no objection to adults using "adult" websites. It's a choice that is available and to restrict it is a fundamental blow to my right to free speech.
My objection is that by allowing adult content on this particular website limits my (our) freedom to choose this as an audio only website at whatever time we are available to do it. More on that later.
I doubt that audio info and pics are showing up on adult websites and perhaps Kegger can speak to this but I don't think that the other audio websites are plagued by the same issues. I haven't seen it anywhere but here.
The issue is not restricting free speech but instead choice as to what speech I want to access. Through the internet we have access to information on any subject you can imagine. There are websites dedicated to the glorification of Hitler and as deplorable as you or I may find that I support their right to that form of free speech.
The resposibility here lies with the folks who run this website to keep it safe to access for its primary users. As I stated in an earlier post I work for a government agency and If adult material pops up when I'm checking the forum at lunch that puts me at risk of dismissal. Yes it is my choice to check this site but it should not be a risky one. I am choosing to participate in an audio forum and not surf an adult site and the folks who run this site need to join the folks who run other audio sites in respecting that or they should suffer the natural consequences of lost membership.
Well lunch is about over and I did not have time to gather my thoughts into a really coherent message but there you have it for now.
Really great to read everyones perspective. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3008
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
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I, for one, am not such a great fan of free speech, per se.
The ability of anyone to say anything is limited by laws of offence. IE: spreading denial of the holocaust is illegial in many places.
Spreading of hate literature is subject to prosecution in many courts.
The KKK is ruled illegal in many states.
The spreadof child p-rn is chased down regularly by many enforcement agencies.
Yet the press can print anything they like and be usually protected from any wrongdoing.
Nice.
Anyhow, if you believe in absolute freedom, be careful what you wish for.
You might just get it. |
Silver Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 616
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 07:20 pm: |
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Well it's difficult for me to carry out my protesting absence when my parenting and opinions are questioned and I have the need to reply.
For a start I agree with Art's post. Also, I'm not saying children would necessarilly access this forum, but some members may have their computers in view of their family and having those degrading and disgusting images appear could prove awkward. Yes Jan, I do have one child, actually an adult now, of whom we are very proud that he is a respectful, well mannered, decent and free thinking individual. I'm sorry I'm not as eloquent a writer as you and that you like to put more into my words than what was intended, my fault no doubt, but this: "If this sort of obscenity is okay . . ." was meant 'okay on this forum' as you believe it is something we should merely be prepared to put up with and not worthy of flaming the administrator. I disagree completely. The adminstrator has often stated he is considering the use of moderators. Posters have been pleading for them for quite a while, yet still he does nothing other than deleting offending posts and prevent images being posted for a few hours.
Yes, it is our choice to use this forum, but it is also our right to expect reasonable content and control over what is allowed and what is not. The point is that I have never seen such filth on other forums. And those images, as you say, are how children are made, are nothing but filth. Images of how children are made should be beautiful - not degrading and ugly. Okay, that may be my opinion. I'n not a wowser, I've had my share of ogling p-rn in my days with my pals over a few beers like many others. There's a time and place for it - if one must have it - and this forum is not the place - as you tentatively seem to agree - yet you defend the adminstrator for doing nothing. Any forum administrator (especially those forums meant for decent purposes) should have a responsability to keep control. If they set up a forum and are away for long periods then there is a need for moderators (John A - I do not understand you reasons against the use of moderators).
"Society may not be free in your limited sense of the word, but this forum is free."
Excuse my lack of intelligence! |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3011
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 07:58 pm: |
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I doubt the lack of intelligence, MR.
However, wishing things away and expecting them to be admonished are different matters.
The web is not going away anytime soon(I hope).
If I added up the crap ads in my junkmail over the years the total would be staggering.
But I expect junk mail, and choose not to open it.
Posts on the forum, however, yes, we would expect a modicum of control and censorship. The Admin is quick to censor the link to a forum for we the disgruntled(to follow and be deleted again), however technically unable to delete multiple posts from a single user all at once.
Maybe the offender used something special and is a whiz. Dunno.
But 18 hrs later, yeah, it got old.
And BTW, if you all think that kids may be exposed to this crap for the first time by stumbling across this forum, you have got to be kidding yourselves!
More likely the embarassment of having it seen on a site visited regularly by dear old dad! |
Silver Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 617
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 08:11 pm: |
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Nuck
and I agree with your free speech comment. Good try with your forum, 'tis a shame the dogs won't leave this doghouse. However,if it does get going I'll see you there. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3014
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 08:16 pm: |
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Well, heck, we need you to help!
hifi.17.forumer.com |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3015
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 08:17 pm: |
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It's dogaudio.
Old dogs and young pups. |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1515
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 08:23 pm: |
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John A - seagulls will eat anything. . . |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3018
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 08:59 pm: |
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And process the worst of it in an expedient manner. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 3392
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 09:01 pm: |
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"And BTW, if you all think that kids may be exposed to this crap for the first time by stumbling across this forum, you have got to be kidding yourselves!
More likely the embarassment of having it seen on a site visited regularly by dear old dad!"
LOL !!!!!! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 8697
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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Rantz - For the record, I'm still in support of your boycot. Tell me when it begins. I shall cheer loudly for you. As a wild eyed liberal, I love principles. As a matter of fact, I stop to pick one up off the floor whenever I find it has been dropped by someone. I have quite a collection right now.
RANTZ, RANTZ, RANTZ, BOOOOORAH!!!
I don't believe I ever defended the administrator for doing nothing. Could you show me where you found that?
Actually the administrator did something. That it was long in coming and disrupted our ability to access the forum without finding something offensive is not in question. He was lax in his duties. That is embarrassing.
That something more should be done to squelch such postings is not in question. The issue would be - what do you expect when you come here?
Obviously we come expecting nothing but audio. However, that hasn't been what we've found in the past. This is not the first time this has happened. More than likely it will not be the last. How people who wish to offend find such open forums is beyond my comprehension. But, they do. And, we know they find this one.
There are several radio and television stations which allow what I consider verbal p0rnography to exist on their airwaves. Some people find it very appealling. I do not. Ocassionally someone who I feel sells this form of p0rnography shows up on a channel I do enjoy. If I stay tuned in, I am far more likely to be offended by this hate speech than anything which was posted on the forum. I know I run the risk of being offended even on the channels I like. And, I know from experience what to expect if I tune in to one of the channels which peddle these p0rnographers. Just as I know what to expect on the magazine rack at the late night liquor store across from the bail bondsman's shop. So, I don't tune those channels in. Also I go to the liquor store down the street. I'm often disappointed by what a free society allows but that is the cost of a free society. I don't believe the administrator condones what was placed on the forum while I do believe the station owners and the shop owners do encourage what they allow on their property. So, I see no purpose in blaming the administrator for something he doesn't condone. He acted. Just not very quickly.
The TV/radio stations don't get my business because I don't want their product when it is accompanied by something I find offensive. I can't say the same for eCoustics so far. If someone else finds the content of this forum to be offensive and feels the administrator encourages or even condones the content I would say you should avoid the forum. You are free to make that choice. You should know what you are likely to find here. That is my only "defense" of the administrator. Otherwise, my hope would be he finds a better filter for such "products" and acts more quickly in the future to remove any blatantly offensive material. However, like John, I do not think one person should be in a position to find any material offensive. That appears to be the case with other forums. Photos such as we saw would never make it to another forum. Neither would many of the discussions we have had on Old Dogs. Probably not this one. That is why most of us come back to Old Dogs. We know what to expect. How we react is up to us not the administrator.
Amusingly, you cannot post the word "p0rnography" on this forum. |
New member Username: Blossom_dearie
The Other Side
Post Number: 1
Registered: Jun-06
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| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 01:50 am: |
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Now Jan, even though you're a loyal fan who agrees I'm a much more sophisticated swinging bopper than that little Ms Kent trollop, your 'wild eyed liberalism' made me roll over in my grave.
Now even though he thinks I'm just a squeaky voiced has-been, I have to agree with Mr Rantz. Can you imagine if we saw things like that in my day - oh, the things I could have sung about - er, never mind. Anyway Jan my loyal fan, tell the administrator (if you can ever find him) to get moderators on board and stop this silly nonsense once and for all. Oh, and it's very sporting of you to support Mr Rantz in his protest even though I noticed it was quite tongue-in-cheek and a little dubious at best.
And keep spinning my old vinyl now, yer hear Jan. It's reassuring to know someone still does. Babe, you're my kind! |
Gold Member Username: Rick_b
Orlando,
FL
Post Number: 1382
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 06:39 am: |
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Off his meds again.......................... |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 4278
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 09:00 am: |
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Looks like Blossom has been moderated. Or else she moderated herself. We shall never know... |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 8699
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 11:25 am: |
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Blossom - You tease, you! Everyone knows you're not dead. And, even at your age you're more alive than most of these young upstarts. Love and kisses, your's always, forever in my dreams, etc., etc., etc.
Jan. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3024
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 05:24 pm: |
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Have a sandwich with Elvis... |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1518
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 08:31 pm: |
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Over on the CD Player thread there's been yet another debate on the ups and downs of up-graded cables. Sigh. I mentioned the give-and-take to friend Verne in LA - and he reminded me of his infamous "cable party" three years ago.
Seems he and a dozen or so writers and engineers get together every month or so for a party and an experiment of some sort.
On the night in question, Verne said he laid out three sets of interconnect cables - and told the friends that they would have to rate them as to good, bad, excellent, etc. They all agreed.
According to Verne, the cables - this time just a pair of CD-to-amp cables - ranged in price from $1,200 down to $300.
Anyway - Verne set up his usual "blind test" array, which meant a curtain in front of his amplifier cabinet so nobody could see the cable-changes.
Then, he and an assistant went to work. They had three short works recorded on a CD-R - classical, jazz and pop - total length about 8 minutes.
the guests were given pads of paper and pens, to write down their ratings.
The cables were taken behind the curtain, and the testing began - A, B, C. None of the guests knew which cable was which.
After three rounds of testing, everybvody got together to compare their results. Verne says there was great angst, because nobody could really agree on any one cable.
Then, Verne says, the devil on his shoulder revealed himself. Verne had not changed out ANY cables at all! Indeed - he had played every round using his stock cables, which at the time, he says, were Cobalt interconnects used in one of the recordingstudios in which he works.
Well - that's gotta say something interesting, Dawgs! And BTW - Verne says several of the guests got so ticked off at him that they have not been back to one of his parties since! Guess they got royally irked that their choices and comments were all for nothing. . .
I believe the Bay Area Audiophile society recently did a similar test - and the results were so inconclusive that you could have flipped a coin to determine which was the better cable. Two Cents may know of this experiment?
what does all this "prove?" Nutting. Just a couple of experiments. . .and some big-time bruised egoes!!!
Respectfully. . .LarryR |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1519
Registered: Oct-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 08:58 pm: |
|
BTW - the interconnects that I recently sent back West after a couple days of testing? I forgot to post that they were "Nordost" cables - Verne wanted me to hear them, so I did. Neither Mer nor I could tell the difference(s) between the Cobalt interconnects and the very, very expensive Nordost cables.
They are probably excellent - but just no on our humble system, I guess. Verne says they cost thousands of dollars - sigh. Good for somebody. . . |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3033
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 08:58 pm: |
|
If you believe that you hear it, then it exists. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 3401
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 09:07 pm: |
|
Sigh!!!!! The great cable debate could go on forever except that it would prove nothing. If you can hear the difference...then enjoy, if you can't...why bother. Neither they who can nor they who can't should be insulted or bothered. |
Gold Member Username: Rick_b
Orlando,
FL
Post Number: 1383
Registered: Dec-03
|
| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 09:14 pm: |
|
YEP! |
Gold Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 1520
Registered: Oct-04
|
| Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 09:58 pm: |
|
Art: Good! Maybe just once I can go to bed knowing that nobody on this forum is either insulted or bothered! Wowzer! That'll be a first! (double grin) |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 4279
Registered: Dec-03
|
| Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 12:01 am: |
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Larry,
Really nice story. But I am bothered.
"...he had played every round using his stock cables, ....
Well - that's gotta say something interesting, Dawgs!"
Yes, but not about cables, Larry. Or am I missing something?!
"And BTW - Verne says several of the guests got so ticked off at him that they have not been back to one of his parties since! Guess they got royally irked that their choices and comments were all for nothing. . . "
Well, if I had been one of the guests, I would have been "royally irked" about having been knowingly misled. And about wasting my time in a trial that my host knew was not going to prove anything. Maybe Verne enjoys "Candid Camera".
All,
I disagree with the following:
"If you believe that you hear it, then it exists." - Nuck.
"Neither they who can nor they who can't should be ...bothered" - Art.
"YEP!" - Rick.
Somehow, we've been here before, and think I recall that I am in a minority.
Put it this way - who will spend $5,000 on an interconnect to replace one costing $5, without caring at all whether it REALLY makes any difference?
That's $4,995 that could have been spent on something else.
There is a real world. It exists independently of what is in our heads. But we can learn things about it, and share what we learn.
Views to the contrary are dangerous, as well as being wrong.
[Steps down from soapbox].
[...Or, possibly, from high horse].
Sorry, folks, but I that's what I think. Most sincerely. From previous experience, it annoys people. But there it is. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Post Number: 3034
Registered: Dec-04
|
| Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 06:04 am: |
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I doubt anyone would be annoyed, John.
But this might.
Placebo's are effective 25% of the time in clinical studies.
I wonder if those people were irked as well?
If the differences in cabling are demonstrated on a spectrum meter, then fine.
If not, then what?
'The soundstage is much deeper.'
'Vocals are much more clear.'
If you hear it, there it is. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 3403
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 08:06 am: |
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John, I fully agree. That story bothered me. I that most folks would be upset if aomeone invited them to a party to intentionally attempt to humiliate then. Verne sounds like quite the part animal minus the party.
This statement was made:
"Neither they who can nor they who can't should be not be insulted or bothered" Art
In direct contrast to:
"If you believe that you hear it, then it exists." Nuck.
I don't believe I can hear it, I do hear it. If others don't that's fine. What I find particularly irritating is the constant insinuation that some of us don't actually hear the difference and that it's in our heads. Quite the contrary we're not imagining it and those who don't hear need not feel badly because either they can't hear it, we all hear differently.
How many times have you been sitting next to someone in a car while they asked "can you read that sign, I can't" and yopu reply with the answer because for you it is easy to read? Was the person next to you insulted because they couldn't read the sign and you could? Not likely!
Another of my hobbies is birdwatching, yet another hobby where the differenves in folks ability to see and hear are right out there for folks to "see". I've never been birdwatching with anyone who was insulted or bothered by the fact that another member of the party could see or hear better than they could. In fact those with keener senses are often relied upon to make identifications. Audio is one of those worlds where egos are so large that folks would rather believe that other folks can't hear any differences rather than try to learn from those who do. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 3404
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 08:09 am: |
|
Top paragragh I meant to say thet "I believe that most folks......
The wretched forum is having problems with the edit function. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 3405
Registered: Feb-05
|
| Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 08:23 am: |
|
"Neither they who can nor they who can't should be not be insulted or bothered" Art
Should read:
Neither they who can nor they who can't should be insulted or bothered. Art
I guess we can't edit our posts now...? |
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