Archive through May 07, 2006

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7953
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:30 am:

Garbage in - garbage out.

Relevant Product Info

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 27
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:22 pm:

cool.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 133
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 01:27 pm:

RAC, what kind of power conditioner do you have?

I have an older one.. forgot the brand, actually.. very beefy thing.

But losing your lushness is not good, no?

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 28
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 02:17 pm:

"what kind of power conditioner do you have?"
psaudio

"But losing your lushness is not good, no?"
I sometimes do that for Lent...

To my ears "Lush" (or "warm") is not the way live music sounds to me (I play guitar and piano occasionally), but "lush" does sound nice.
I can return to that sound when I want by not using the conditioner. The way my system sounds now, I am reminded of the old Nautalus records' slogan: "Better highs and a tighter bottom" -- my bass response is better (punchier? and with more presence) and my highs and mids are clear (I know that is an ambiguous word), more like the real thing, according to my memory -- and with little coloration to my ears. The imaging and soundstaging has improved, too.
I suspect that there will be changes to the sound when I change the tubes. I tried "winged c" 6l6s in the amplifier (with the power conditioner) and the rcas in the preamp and the sound of this combination still gives me a headache (the combination to "C"s and RCAs sounds grainy/ edgy to me).
So, I guess it's what sounds good/ better/ best to the listener's ears that matters most.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 135
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 02:38 pm:

"I sometimes do that for Lent..."

LOL!

(I seriously considered giving up music for Lent. Hey, should have have a discussion about religion? ;-})

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 136
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 02:41 pm:

Actually, I'm with you in that live music must be our reference. I actually DO think that some amount of "lushness" is realistic, but, yes, it can be overdone. What I mean by "lushness" is attacks and decays done right, which is one thing tubes tend to do better.

Anyway, I'm sure that your power conditioner did not strip *this* quality from your system.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 139
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:11 pm:

Guys,

I was JUST KIDDING with the religion comment! Didn't mean to STIFLE THE THREAD! Somebody say something!

Hawk

Silver Member

Username: Hawk

Highlands Ranch, CO
USA

Post Number: 723
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 12:05 am:

Paul:

We used to call comments that were total conversation stoppers a "dead bird." Looks like you dropped a dead bird on this one!

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 29
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 07:47 am:

dead bird, eh?
perhaps we should notify the cdc...
(with apologies to Hawk)

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7971
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 11:21 am:

While we each have different ears for music, I often found anyone whose reference for live music came from being onstage had a very distinct quality they were listening for. Not unusually, guitar players heard the guitar first and drummers the drumset, etc. Beyond their particular instrument of choice however, the qualities they desired were seldom the same group of qualities I would encounter when dealing with someone who was more often the audience member rather than the performer. Not only were the performers listening with far less sense of the presentational merits of the sound (what an audiophile would call staging and imaging), but their sense of correct tonal balance was, to my recollection, never similar to an audience member's memory of the live event. Not to paint with too broad a brush, but ambience was typically far down on a musician's scale of importance; and when present was also not akin to what the non-performer claimed to want when using the same terminology.

For informational purposes, I am running the Svetlana Winged "C" 6L6's in my amplifiers though not with any RCA tubes in the front end of the amplifier nor in the pre amp. "Grainy" is not how I would describe the sound I hear. In short, I am quite pleased with the sound from my amplifiers and would rank the Svetlanas as among the best tubes I've used over the last 20+ years. We are, of course, dealing with totally different circuitry between RAC's amplifiers and my own.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1787
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 09:13 pm:

After years of consideration, I have come to the conclusion that listening'live' as a reference towards reproduction is totally innacurate.
I heard ac/dc 'live' at sarsfest in Toronto, and it sounded totally different than my recorded ac/dc.
As well, I could not reproduce the Rush tracks presented 'live' on my home kit.
I suppose my kit is lacking somewhat.
Or is the 'live' sound only for strings or a trio?
I have never had a trio in my basement to find how they sound 'live'.
Rather a conundrum.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 144
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 09:58 pm:

Nuck,

Yeah, the 'live' reference is pretty much valid much more for acoustical music - jazz, flemenco and (to a lesser extent, I think) classical.

The sound of a live acoustica jazz trio or quartet especially can be remarkably reproduced by a very good playback system.

With rock, the studio is *meant* to sound different from live. This is why they simply don't play as a band in the studio, as do most jazz combos! Miking & recording each instrument individually, then mixing, is simply inherently completely different from a live performance.

I am very big Rush fan, BTW. These days, I don't listen to much rock, but 75% of the rock I do listen to is Geddy, Alex, and Neal. They are untoppable in their genre.

Paul

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1793
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:20 pm:

Pauly, Pauly, where have you been?
So glad to see another trio fan.(non jazz)

Die hard fan here, except for a couple of lean years, I am a drummer, dreaming of Neal's solo's.

Agreed that the 'rock' bands are recorded with such accumen that there is a 'clinical' sound to a lot of recordings.
However, I have been to a lot of concerts where the band can 'reproduce' the sound quite well.

I hate that a lot of bands play 'on the box'.

But, a concert is still a concert, so 'ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances'.

Thanks, Paul.

BTW you have a great looking kit in type...send a pic?

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 30
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 08:28 am:

Jan:
Interesting observation regarding musicians. Overall, I agree -- when I go to a show, I listen primarily to the guitar(s) or to the piano. (I did attend a Celtic Harp concert this weekend; no guitar, but lots of fun.)
When I listen to my system in the evening, however, I want to hear what all the musicians in the hall (or the studio) sound like. So, maybe I'm a hybrid listener (ha!).
What tubes (preamp and drivers) are you using with the "C" 6L6's?

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 147
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 05:00 pm:

Nuck: I saw the boys from Toronto in '04 on the 30th anniversary tour - that was quite a show. 10th row. They are such an amazing ensemble live - such precision and grace! Rock at its ultimate... transcends the genre.

I've never taken pics of my stuff. Maybe. For some reason, it strikes me as a little silly. :-}

Paul

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 2893
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:34 pm:

I've seen Rush 3 times. First time was the "All the World's a Stage" tour in the 70's. Last time I saw them was in the 80's. Not really a fan anymore but they were fun back in the day. Bought the last live DVD for nostalgia.

First time I saw them Cheap Trick backed them up at the Armory in Rockford, Illinois just before the release of their first album. Cheap Trick was amazing. They flat blew Rush off the stage. Hard act to follow.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 156
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 02:38 pm:

toobs rool

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario
Canada

Post Number: 1890
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 02:57 pm:

While fools drool

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8055
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 08:06 pm:

Where angels fear to tread.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 165
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:03 pm:

Let's jump-start this here sagging thread.

I recently (last month) traded the excellent Melody SP3 amp in my 2nd system for a friend's Arcam A65.

I found the sand-amp to be bright, hard, lack soundstage, and sound strained at moderate volumes (driving DynAudio 42s). Mind you, both amps are rated around 40W/ch. And, the build quality difference... HOLY COW. I'm not even going to go into it.

The real clincher - we both paid the same amount of money for these amps ($700, though, granted, the Melody was on sale).

If people only knew...

Paul

P.S. My friend *claimed* to like his amp better.. said the tubes were "too lushy" and lacked detail. Whatever... I know it's partly a matter of preference, but I can't understand how anybody could favor that A65 sound.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8249
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 01:32 pm:

What opinion does your friend have of tubes?

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 900
Registered: May-05

Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 05:53 pm:

Well, glad to see we're back on tube track. I had the chance to introduce a 20 something year old to vintage tube sound. Played him a bad Elton John recording so he could compare it to what he hears on his iPod. Then, played the Eagles double CD, live in concert. Very good CD and I had forgotten how much I like the Eagles' sound, it was absolutely beautiful. He was wowed and said his iPod will never work for him again. Also, played him a little Nora Jones and ole time Elvis and he was amazed at how "real" it sounded.

As for RAC's comment on the power conditioner, I had a similar transition in sound from the change in ICs between the Fisher and Arcam. All I can say is WOHOO!!! The Altecs picked up a bunch more bass, not that they needed much more, and the midrange punch increased and the treble cleared considerably. The soundstage is better, the music much more dynamic and I am one happy camper.

"Don't go taken my . . . " valves. Dave

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4113
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 02:01 am:

There is an article on microphony in May HiFi News, using the PrimaLuna PL 3 and 4 for tests.

I can confim that my PL2 sounded a whole lot better after I moved it away from the speakers, at the end of long speaker cables. Especially on loud.

It seems to me that most people these days have their amps between the speakers, which is too close. Infra-red remotes and TVs encourage this. In the days of turntables, most serious HiFi people had the sources and the amps as far from speakers as possible. Perfectionists would have them in another room.

I think people with tube/valve amps should be aware of the microphone-like properties of tubes/valves, and take care to elimate feedback from speakers.

Silver Member

Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 166
Registered: Dec-05

Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:32 am:

Jan,

My friend has an old tube headphone amp he likes a lot. Main problem for him was budget - but when he was buying his gear (recently) he wasn't too interested in hearing about the moderately-priced valve amps for some reason. Another issue is that his wife will castrate him with a rusty razor blade if he buys anything else (even though he could probably make a near-even trade on audiogon). Thus, I'm not sure how 'unbiased' his stated opinion was, and I wasn't about to push him. And, after all, the Arcam amp is decent for the money. It doesn't sound 'bad' - I just much prefer tube sound, which I found soo much more like the real thing, like all of us here. But, yes, opinion it is, at least in part.

John - just read that article yesterday. Interesting stuff! I have looked into tube dampers, but they are indeed pricey when you have a pre/monoblock setup. I don't want to think about it. $15/each is way too much.

My 'room' is very open and my stand, while not 'audiophile-grade', is very heavy and is off to the side of the speakers. And I rarely listen above 80dB.

I look forward to the follow-up next month.

iPodz - used mine last week for the first time in 1+ year on my London biz trip. I use Apple lossless which means "only" 40 CDs or so - that should be enough for anybody. That and my cheap-but-great Koss PortaPros are a decent ultra lightweight portable setup. Made the 8.5 hour coach flight bearable.

I do regret not being able to make it to any of the shops out there - the 2nd one on your list, which carries Hyperion speakers, I had really wanted to see. But they closed at 5:30 and I was at the office till 8 every night. There may be another trip at some point.

Cheers!
Paul

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8259
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 01:07 pm:

Dampers are good things when they are effective. Many are not when they loose their grip on the tube as they age and become affected by the heating/cooling process. Isolation devices and placement are the best bet overall for microphonics. I removed the hold down screws from the circuit board in my pre amp and replaced them with Sorbothane pads. The board now rests upon another layer of isolation. Tube dampers are positioned around the tube socket and tube coolers are on the tubes themself. (All of the passive components are damped with a bit of heat resistant silicone gasket material.) The top cover is also supported with Sorbothane pads and a double sandwich baggie full of lead shot is placed on top of the cover plate. The feet of the pre amp have been replaced with AudioQuest large Sorbothane footers with a small TipToe inserted in the underside of the pad. This all sits upon several layers of marble tile with more Sorbothane between each layer. The whole thing is supported by a suspended shelf in the DIY rack.

I would suggest anyone using tubes invest in some Pearl tube coolers. Somewhat expensive but worth the money in my opinion. Buy a few at a time if need be.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/WEBPAGES/PEARL.htm

http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/TubeCooler_QuickStart.pdf

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4116
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:23 pm:

Paul,

If I'd known you had an iPod, I would have recommended the Regent Street AppleStore, too.

Yes, the good, specialist HiFi stores tend to have old-fashioned opening hours, because of staff costs.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3033
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:17 pm:

Jan, those tube coolers look like a good investment. Thanks for sharing that. I can't afford them now but they are definitely going on the wish list.

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4120
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 05:20 am:

Just to copy from Jan's message: "Isolation devices and placement are the best bet overall for microphonics."

My point was that placement habits have changed, and younger listeners ("how old I feel") may not know that keeping your speakers apart from the electronics and source was once the standard, and worth going back to if you have a tube/valve amp.

Long speaker cables do not degrade the sound, if they are any good. Acoustic feedback to the amp certainly does.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8269
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:40 am:

And placing the amplifier(s) directly behind the speakers isn't bad, actually it can be beneficial with a tube amplifier, if you isolate the amplifier(s). Obviously this is easier to do with a pre/power combination than with an integrated amplifier.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3113
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 08:19 pm:

Anyone here have experience with tube dampers...Jan, Rick?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8298
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 09:43 pm:

Depends on what type you're considering. I've put a link on the "Tweaks" thread to a site that manufacturers several isolation/vibration control devices. Their tube dampers have received good reviews though I've not used any of their dampers. I just bought a CD mat from them.

Obviously the first thing to do is to isolate the amplifiers before you head into specific tube dampers.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2242
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 09:49 pm:

A brief imposition, gentlemen, please excuse me.
I have found an amp ST80 tube job up for sale, is this an appropriate way to begin the tube experience?

Would something else be a better start?

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3118
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:45 am:

What's an ST80?

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3120
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 01:25 am:

Sorry I was half asleep. A Dynaco ST 80.....

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2251
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 07:47 am:

Sorry Art, yes the Dynaco.
Or would I be better off to cut to the chase and start with something a little further along, but for once, the dollars must be held in check, say, 800 USD.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3125
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 09:47 am:

Depends on who you talk to. I wanted to enjoy tubes without much of the hassle described to me by my tube loving friends so buying a new unit was just the ticket for me. There are a number of fine tube amps for around those dollars (a little more). Or you can go this route...

http://buy0.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?intatube&1&ctg&st1

That's page one of the A'gon tube integrated section. Stay away from the Jolida amps, they aren't very well built.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3126
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 09:52 am:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1149001187

With EL34's it's a little softer sounding than mine but many folks prefer that. I know a guy who bought my amp and switched out his KT88's for EL34's pretty much making it a PL1. I listened to thr PL1 at the store, loved it, in fact it was what sold me on the amp that I bought. I only bought the 2 because it gives me more options for tube rolling.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8301
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:21 am:

The Dynaco ST80 is a transistor amplifier. (http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynaco/components/ST80/) A Dynaco ST70 is a vacuum tube amplifier. If you're after tube amp sound, the ST80 isn't the way to get it.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 3132
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:33 am:

Good point....lol!

Nuck let me point out that your Atoms are a very difficult load...I'm told by Jim at NWAL that he measured it and it is the most difficult of all Paradigm speakers on an amp. That is perhaps why so many reviewers had such good luck with them using high dollar amps. The Atoms are not a good speaker for an inexpensive tube amp. However, contrary to popular belief the Maggie MMG's are very inefficient but also a very easy load on amps. A near to steady 4 ohms, very little fluctuation. People have reported very good results with MMG's and tube amps. I intend to get a pair for occasional listening someday.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2255
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 01:44 pm:

Thanks, guys.
In fact I have Psb Alpha's, but I expect the same results as they are very commanly built.

I had the Lings in mind, actually, to start.

And thanks Jan, I went from memory(poor) rather than the link I should have used.

Beyond which, if I up the $, where would be a good start?

Knowing I like to Rock, but not necissarily with the tube kit, I would like a little headroom.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8304
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 02:31 pm:

Buy your hats a size larger.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8305
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 02:42 pm:

First, I don't know that I would use the Lings for "rockin'". They do very well with anything that doesn't require the drivers to deal with loud and complex at the same time. Most everything Tim builds is far less efficient than you're used to with the PSB's. That will require some adjustment on your part, I would think. Or, some spare tweeters.

Second, is this going to be a total change out in equipment? Speakers and amplifier? At the same time, or do you want to use the PSB's for a while with the tube amp?

Budget up to ... ? I assume you're going to have to buy this on a recommendation without an audition.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2256
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 04:35 pm:

Geez, Jan, I do one at a time.

The lings will not be rockin', they will be 1 meter from listening, at the desk.Probably with the T-amp to start. I am thinking '1 after 909' from the beatles.

Second, not a change out at all, a second(third) setup for now.
Yes I would start the setup with the Psb's(knowing the bad matchup to start), but trying the Ling's with a fair tube amp would be nice.

The budget is the hard part(as always). I wanted to start small, and tinker a bit(ST70), however, I may as well go better with a better amp, although you have a soft spot in your heart for the Dynaco.

Remember, in the end(maybe years) I do like to Rock.

Tip O' the glass.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8306
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 06:19 pm:

How about a DIY tube amp?

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2260
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 08:02 pm:

I am wide open, iron in hand, awaiting the post, Jan.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8307
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 09:06 pm:

Well, I was going to suggest a Bottlehead design, but they seem to have gone to fairly small wattage amps. That probably won't work unless you want to go to a high efficiency speaker. Take a look and ignore the funky site.

http://www.bottlehead.com/

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8308
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 09:09 pm:

Otherwise, I would begin with an ST70 and check ouy Curcio's site for mods.

http://www.curcioaudio.com/cust_3.htm

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2265
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:01 pm:

I have looked at bottlehead before and kind of put them aside, as the amps are not quite what I might listen to.

The curcio site piques my curiosity.

Would such high powered amps surennder a lot of quality at normal(8w) levels?