Archive through April 25, 2006

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1218
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 08:55 pm:

Sem: Thanks for your comments, sir. When we lived in Colorado years ago I was bitten by a spider - but only had a quick trip to a doctor and some shots. Those spiders, it seems, can wreak havoc with people - never thought much about it.

But Franklin was in his late 70s, and not in the best of health. I guess it was his time to go. Sigh. So much for land mines, eh?

thanks again, Sem. . .

Respectfully. . .LarryR

Relevant Product Info

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1335
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 06:37 am:

Sorry to hear about Franklin. Just think about him now and again, and smile.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1220
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 07:27 am:

Rick: Thanks - now - get with the program, sir, and start polishing up those CDs! (grin)

Hope all goes well with you and your search for CD-player happiness. You're out of my league budget-wise, so I have nothing to add to what others on the forum have said, except: "good luck!"

As you've read, I await the newest Harman-Kardon player, and will be anxious to read any and all reviews. At least it is in my price range - and with my obviously handicapped ears, may prove to be just fine for my setup.

Respectfully. . .LarryR

Jazzwannabe

Bronze Member

Username: Jazzwannabe

Post Number: 18
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 09:12 am:

Jan - sorry for the late reply but here goes.

How does a group of players syncopate?

Normally, syncopation is left to the individual player. In a typical ensemble, e.g., trio or quartet, the pianist or guitarist or horn player will always syncopate his/her lines. There are no hard and fast rules on syncopation. What separates one musician from another is style. For example, George Shearing plays a sort of laid back, behind-the-beat syncopation. Erroll Garner combined triplets with dotted quarter and sixteenth notes. Ella Fitzgerald sung her lines between beats. So did Mel Torm�. It's not easy to explain in words. I suggest listening to any recording of a popular song by one of the aofrementioned artists and try to count in four's in regular meter (assuming the song is in 4/4 time). That's 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, and snap your fingers on 2 and 4. Listen to how the melodic line floats and bobs along the meter.

Most of the playing that you will hear is informal and usually, the main melody or lead sheet is the only guide that the musicians have.

In other ensembles, the melodic and harmonic lines are written down in structured arrangements so that everyone�s in-sync with one another. These arrangements, often referred to as �charts,� contain syncopated notes. For example, take the opening chorus on Count Basie�s chart of April in Paris. Or Les Brown's chart on "Sentimental Journey."

Written arrangements are not confined to big ensembles. The �Shearing Sound� that George Shearing popularized during his "quintet" days consisted of having the piano, vibraphone and guitar all playing in unison --- all same notes --- supported by brushes and bass.

Is there an agreed upon format for playing with others?
Yes. The generally accepted format is: a) state the main theme or melody; b) take turns improvising on the melody. Then they do the usual �trade fours�, that is, they play four bars of improvised lines each. Then they re-state the theme.

I assume all improvised solos are up to the individual musician; Yes.

...but what about as the melody is laid out at the front and back of a piece of music?
Please see my notes above regarding lead sheet and charts.

As an added note of interest, bossa nova has a more complicated and more interesting form of syncopation. Again, it�s hard to explain in writing, but I recommend the recordings of Antonio Carlos Jobim, Jo�o Gilberto, Gal Costa, to hear what I mean.

Don

Jazzwannabe

Bronze Member

Username: Jazzwannabe

Post Number: 19
Registered: Mar-06

Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 09:13 am:

On Monday night, we went to a �Tribute to Dave Brubeck� concert at The Old Mill Inn in Toronto http://www.oldmilltoronto.com/ featuring the John Johnson Quartet with John Johnson (alto sax), Gord Sheard (piano), Pat Kilbride (bass), and Mark Kelso (drums). Excellent performance.

There�s nothing like �live� acoustic music. There are no bass/treble levels to adjust; no delay settings to tweak. The imaging and soundstage are so natural.

Don

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1226
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:33 am:

Don: As usual - great posts, sir. Keep them coming, for all of us to learn/enjoy.

Wow - a "live" CD, eh? (grin) My kind of ultimate enjoyment, for sure. And I'll bet you didn't take any Pledge with you? Hmm. . . .

PS - are you cleaning your CDs? Yep - we can use all the backup we can get on this issue.

LR

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4054
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 01:37 am:

Jan,

"Though how much jingoism was involved in the answer is open for debate."

Huh? (Weak smiley with raised eyebrow).

"Back beat", I think, is just stressing the weak beats continuously.

1, 2, 3, 4, ......

In contrast, syncopation is transient anticipation, or delay (thanks, Don!) of the beat, which is nevertheless maintained. There is also "rubato" ("robbed time"), where it isn't.

BTW In Reggae the bass plays continuously only on the weak beats and there is no emphasis at all on the strong ones.

_, 2, _, 4, ......

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4055
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 06:15 am:

"...this is in reference to Jan's quite excellent comments on CD-cleaning..." (Larry March 27, 2006 - 10:58 am).

Prompted by Larry's words, and being a less frequent visitor than I use to be, I have scanned the whole of the current, live thread, and cannot find the comments to which he refers.

I am left with the vague but uneasy feeling that it may be advantageous to polish CDs in time to the music.

Sorry for losing the plot, and perhaps making it all worse, but what is still on-topic?

Going back some more, Don wrote (March 14, 2006 - 10:43 am)

'As to making "playing chords respectable", I don't know what you meant by that. Almost every written classical music, whether it's by Bach or Debussy has chords and chord progressions, so playing them is/was inescapeable'.

Apologies for not responding before, Don. Before Monteverdi, roughly, written music was melodic lines. Where they were meant to represent different parts, to be sung or played together, they made up polyphony. As I understand it, Monteverdi, with Orfeo and the Vespers, wrote down chords, which previously had been the basis of popular music. So one could say that he made playing chords "respectable" (note quotes).

Earlier, and Jan seems to agree, quoting Bill Evans:

"It bugs me when people try to analyze jazz as an intellectual theorem. It's not. It's feeling."

Whose feeling? All music is feeling. If this is what distinguishes "jazz" then all we have is that "jazz" is what Bill Evans, or someone else, says it is. I can't see how that helps; deeply suspect.

My "Amen" is to Two Cents' The thought of music transcending cultures is an uplifting one. (March 20, 2006 - 08:19 pm).

I find that a decent HiFi makes all sorts of things interesting that I cannot otherwise get into.

Lord knows we need a bit more inclusivity in the world, these days. Audiophiles for peace and reconciliation. Hmmm....

If looks like Daniel Barenboim is going to attempt the "music saves" line with In the Beginning was Sound .

Pull quote from last lecture:

The Power of Music
We end in Jerusalem to explore power. Music has shown me that there is a fundamental difference between power and strength which could map a new journey for our politics.

A thread on this? Any takers?

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1237
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 08:57 am:

John A. - the only reason for polishing in time to music is for your own enjoyment - but Good Grief! do NOT try to shine those discs while listening to syncopated music, because you'll surely over-polish! (grin)

Respectfully. . .LarryR

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1238
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 09:08 am:

John A. - I was referring to the many comments that Jan has made regarding disc-cleaning - first, when we discussed Pledge vs. Vivid, then Pledge vs. the Zaino, and these comments have come over many months' time, not just in the current thread.

Jan has spent a lot of time and energy in testing the various compounds - some of which I sent to him - and he has determined that the disc-cleaning DOES make a marked difference. Most recently, he has said that Pledge does a very good job, though he opines that, in his experience, the Zaino does a little better job.

Sounds like I'm trying to put words in his mouth, for which I apologize - but that's basically his take on the cleaning experiments, I think.

The interesting thing to me is that everybody who has tried the disc-cleaning - whether it be 2C with his Pledge, or Jan with his formulas, or my LA friend with his home-made glop, or me with my long string of various polishes - has heard improvement in sound on nearly every disc.

Please note everyone - do NOT use any product that contains wax. Pledge does not. Zaino does not. Apparently Mr. Sheen does contain some bad stuff, and My Rantz wisely eschewed the product, and has seen fit to order - at GREAT expense - some Zaino.

I hate to think what will happen to me if Rantz rants when the stuff doesn't live up to his expectations! Whew! (grin)

There in the Center of the Universe, John, I'm not sure what product might be best for you - if you choose any at all, that is. Just remember: no wax, and no silicone. Polymers are very good.

If I were you, I'd at least start with Jan's apparently quite good solution - Pledge Clean and Dust anti-static spray. No lemon scent, and no Pledge for Wood. And either microfibre towels or Kleenex Viva. Most paper towels will scratch.

Respectfully. . .LarryR

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 2912
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 09:15 am:

Thanks Larry you just answered one of my questions without me even having to ask. Which Pledge product to buy. Hopefully I will remember while I'm at Fred Meyer today.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1239
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 09:36 am:

Art: please note that I have not tried this - but Jan has used it quite successfully. Also - be careful of which paper towel to use - only Kleenex Viva.

Better if you can find some microfibre towels - they are the best. Usually in car-polishing area of the stores. We get them at Sam's Club.

LR

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4056
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 04:02 pm:

Thanks, Larry. No time. Will be back. Nice of you to remember "centre of the universe" - just a little irony from many months ago.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1241
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 10:52 pm:

TEST RESULTS -MICROFIBRE RULES! Yep - I just finished doing some A-B comparison polishing with a half-dozen CDs.

On three of them, I polished with Kleenex Viva. Got the Zaino off alright, but had a bit of a time getting that clear sheen that I seek.

Other three discs I used the Viva to put on the Zaino, but then buffed it off with one of Mer's microfibre towels from Sam's Club.

No contest - the microfibre did such a superb job that I'll not be using the Viva towels again - period!

Still use paper for application, though. With a very light pressure.

One point to repeat - if/when you use the microfibre towels - wash them often - and do NOT use fabric softener in the dryer.

Jan - I believe you use a microfibre towel, do you not? Is this a small one for use in cleaning eyeglasses, or something else? My only concern with Mer's towels is the size - not very large, but somewhat cumbersome on the Cds - they are 15 inches by 15 inches in size.

LR

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 2918
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 12:42 am:

Got the Pledge and the microfiber towels today. I will be applying with the microfiber as well. I will give the treatment a try either this weekend or next.

Jan Vigne

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8081
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 12:42 am:

I use a pad which was supplied in a package of "Final". This was, to my knowledge, the first CD cleaner/treatment aimed at improving sound quality. It was sold back in the late 1980's. This pad came with the rubber disc which goes under the CD to be cleaned when the disc is placed playing side up in the jewel case. The pad has a velvet side for removing/buffing the clear Final product. It has a small handle to facilitate the cleaning and its size and shape make it impossible to not rub the disc in a side to side direction. This removes most of the Pledge or other treatment I would use. I generally finish up with a small microfiber cloth, about 8X10", and have noticed I can buff a better finish with it than any other cloth I've tried. If you work with an overhead light, the process is very similar to waxing your car. As you buff with the microfiber cloth, you will feel the surface becoming more slick and the prismatic effect of the light hitting the polycarbonate comes into "focus" as you get the final degree of finish. Since Pledge is a spray on product, I only have to use a small cosmetic sponge to spread the material before I begin buffing.

Asimo

Bronze Member

Username: Asimo

Ramat-Gan
Israel

Post Number: 65
Registered: Apr-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 03:41 am:

John A

My NAD C541 CD player starts to show its age. It does not read some of the commercial CD's. I think that after four years of faithful and enjoyable service it is time to replace or upgrade it.
I looked carefully at the least of sub $1000 CD players and found only few candidates

NAD C542
Rega Apollo
Arcam DIVA CD73

A little more expensive but possible

Cyrus CD6
Exposure 2010

From the above list the most interesting CD player in my opinion is the Rega Apollo.
I read some reviews, your reports on Ecoustics.com and other opinions about the Apollo like:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/113988.html

Going into product information I found that Rega counts much on the internal CD player CPU for extra error corrections and memory. I just wonder why my PC can't have same Hi-end sound from my Toshiba DVD ROM. It has a strong CPU, virtually unlimited memory and can be connected to Hi-end sound card (I have SB Extigy).
Up to now I have a nice sound from PC but inferior to my NAD C541.

S.M
Waiting eagerly to have your report about the single drive speaker

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4061
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 05:30 am:

Asimo,

Thanks. I have asked similar questions about computer CD drives and storage. There is an in-built DAC and amplifier to consider. But generally, I do not know why there is a difference in sound between CD players.

If one has an amp or receiver with a digital input, and uses it, I cannot see why playing from an exact disc copy, stored on a magnetic hard drive, is any different from playing the original CD. This is just one reason why I cannot take this disc cleaning question very seriously, with all due respect to Larry and others who swear by it. "Turns out he cleans every single new CD at least three times before playing." This seems to be a behavioural disorder of some kind. Personally, and not to claim invulnerability, my own obsessive-compulsive tendencies focus on speaker positioning.

By the way, I can recommend the Apollo for "classical", my main interest. It has digital output, as both electrical co-ax and optical "Toshlink" (surely a little Rega joke?). My amp at present has only analogue input, so I cannot experiment. Anyway, I am more interested listening to music these days.

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1337
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 07:45 am:

Kleenex Viva.........microfiber towels?

Sounds like the Barnes theory of rubbing your cones with only a terry cloth sock..........

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4063
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 07:50 am:

In passing, has anyone else noticed the claim on behalf of Apple Computer that iTunes are not recorded music, but "data"?

Going back to the sort of recorded music (or data) that might suggest that SACD is waiting in the wings. And with reference to the point, made early on this thread, that the medium can get in the way....

Pentatone Classics:

PentaTone will release all its recordings on hybrid Super Audio CD (SA-CD). This is a CD with two layers. The first layer carries the traditional CD signal and the second layer the surround sound signal.....

The founders of PentaTone believe that 5-channel surround sound will gradually replace today�s stereo sound, because surround sound provides an extra dimension to the musical experience. Hearing is believing. Not only the artists and the audiophiles are convinced. Everybody who attends a demonstration confirms that the experience is more natural and superior compared to stereo sound.

Nothing there about benefits of SACD in 2-channel.

They have the extraordinary, young German violinist Julia Fischer on their books. There was an interview with her this morning on "CD Review", with some extracts. Nice stereo balance in the interview. Very detailed and pleasing sound in the extracts. Except the Bach solo violin B Minor Partita BWV1002. Somehow they had achieved a wide stereo separation between the the upper and lower registers of the instrument, giving the impression that Miss Fischer, or her violin, was part of a conjuring act, and had been sawn in half.

Gorgeous playing. But no mono button anywhere in my current system.

It is just possible it sounds better in 5-channel, but I doubt it; with engineering like that, they could just have decided on one channel per string, with one left over for breathing or something.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1242
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 09:13 am:

Jan - as usual, you have cut to the chase and have explained everything cleaning-wise in an orderly manner. Good one, sir - and I hope everybody reads your posting.

Art: holding breath until I hear the results of your experiment. . .wishing you "great sound."

Asimo - good to hear from you again - and I hope your player-search results in fine sound for you!

John A - sigh - I understand your reticence in entering the cleaning-polishing cycle. My LA friend may, indeed, have a screw or two loose - but he's in high demand as a recording engineer, his personal, uh, "traits" aside. (GRIN)

As he won't reveal his cleaning glop contents, I have no idea just what "three times" actually means. I suppose it may be a multi-part system?

In fact, I clean every disc I have essentially three times. Twice with the Z-14 and then once with the Z-6. Maybe he does similar acts? I'll ask him again, but don't hold your breath for an answer!

I am again surprised and delighted at the difference that the microfibre (or microfiBER) cloths make. I had only used them on occasion in the past - but now will make them permanent replacements for the Viva - which will go onto the kitchen paper-holder.

John - your comments re the split sound apparent in the violin playing - - hmm - - I remember that, years ago, I had a similar experience. Turned out my front speakers were out of phase. Might be sure that yours are spot-on in that regard? Just a thought.....

Rick: remember, I bought those cones on your recommendation - but they did nothing for me. However, I still religiously polish them (under the subwoofer) - WITH AN OLD SOCK. (grin?)

Respectfully. . .LarryR

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1339
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:29 am:

Wrong cones Larry.......... I keep referring back to an old obscure post that suggested you rub the cones of your speakers with a terry sock to "break them in". I still find that post very funny, on many different levels. Cheers!

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1243
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 01:28 pm:

Rick: story of my life - wrong cones! (grin) Yeah, I remember that all too well, as it was one of my forum-mates on another forum who said that putting pressure on the Polk speaker cones helped to break them in and make them smoother - and then (I forget where) somebody else chimed in with the "rub the woofers with terrycloth" - in either case, it sounds like a nut-case to me! rubbing the cones? Wellllll - I asked around and got the general answer that doing such would be a very good way to waste money and ruin the speakers! Hmm. . .

Meanwhile - I am finding even greater success with the CD-cleaning, now that I've given up on Viva in favor of the microfibre (ber?) cloths.

Jan - I located five old, old CDs that had never been cleaned with anything - and started experimenting. First pass with the Z-14/microfibre - I got some yellowish gunk off, and even when polished, the CDs had a "drag" to them. Hmm. . .polished with a second coat of Z-14, and now the surface was smoother, drag-free, and had a much more mirror-like finish. Finished off with a wisk of the Z-6, and the CDs looked like entirely different things. Comparing uncleaned with cleaned - rather amazing! Now - to sound-test them to see/hear any differences.

these CDs are from the early 80s - so I expect the sound to be horrible, anyway - but hope springs eternal. Will report. . .

Respectfully. . .LarryR

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4066
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 01:43 pm:

"Turned out my front speakers were out of phase. "

Thanks, Larry. That was not it, though.

It was those darned recording engineers. Give 'em a new toy and they use Miss Fischer and BWV1002 to show off what they can do....

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1245
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 02:03 pm:

John: Recording engineers - never trust them! (do you read this, friend Verne? GRIN)

New toys - yep - look at what Apple and others are doing with "our" sound! Talk about new toys! The way things are going they'll put symphonies in gobs of Silly Putty - or something equally insane. . .

Sigh.

LR

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 2928
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 09:06 pm:

Funny thing happened this evening. I was putting up a new mirror in the dining area and I noticed that the plastic that the mirror had been wrapped in by the furniture store for delivery had left a film on the mirror. I thought that this might be a good opportunity to put the new Pledge to the test and so I attempted to clean off the film with the Pledge and guess what happened....it just kind of smeared the film around without removing it, bummer. So I went out into the garage and found the the Pro 409 (which I don't even think is available anymore) and put it to the mirror and it just wiped the film right off. Now what is an oft anxiety prone audio buff like myself to think of all of this. Damned if I know.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1246
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:17 pm:

Art: First, I think that Pledge is not meant for glass - and second, the plastic residue may have just interacted with the Pledge. the 409, being a MUCH srronger cleaner, obviously cleared things up.

Even the Zaino company makes two separate products for glass and plastic - and says they are not interchangeable. Not sure why. . .

I have said that I've not used the Pledge, so first-hand experience I must leave to Jan.

Please don't get freaked out - if Jan says the Pledge Clean and Dust anti-static formula works, I believe him. But he's using it on polycarbonate, not glass.

Please try the Pledge on a CD that you're not fanatical about - something you'd be OK with losing. And then be your own judge.

Let us know soonest - and thank you, sir. . .

Respectfully, . .LarryR

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 2938
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:40 pm:

Actually the Pledge claims to be for glass as well as other surfaces.

Unfortunately I clean up my collection often enough that I wouldn't be okay with losing any of it. But I'm not really worried I just wondered if the Pro 409 would work better. It is supposed to be a multi surface cleaner much like the Pledge. Don't worry I will give the Pledge a go.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1248
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:46 pm:

Art: I'd be worried that the 409 is too harsh for the CD surface. From my experience with 409, it can soften some plastic. I'd not recommend it, sir!

Only my very humble opinion. . .

LR

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 2939
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 12:04 am:

Oh no I wasn't going to use the 409. Seems a bit too effective for my comfort.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1250
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 11:37 pm:

Jan V. - I know you're very busy, but just wondering if you've had a chance to compare the sound on the two Evans discs yet? I'll be interested in your comments, because this is a case where I hear differences that I can explain. Not so with many CDs.

Also - today had a chance to compare two of my guitar CDs - one released in 1985, the other a SACD re-release of an analog 4-channel recording. The differences were amazing - and brought home to me the possibilities that the liddle silver discs have to offer.

I know that many of the Dogs are getting, or already have, upscale CD players. I wonder if even they could make that 1985 CD sound "almost like vinyl," as so many people on various forums have claimed.

BTW - I have nothing but rave reviews for these microfibre (yes, that's the spelling on the package, which, in reading the fine print, comes from England) towels. They make the CDs shine like the apple I gave to Miss Knittle in fourth grade. Wanting to make a good impression on the "old lady" (I'm sure she was all of 21) I took a friend's advice and polished the poor apple with generous applications of car wax! Wowzer - whadda shine! (grin)

Didn't help me much, however - several days later I was sent to the cloak room again - for some infraction or other. . .sigh.

Respectfully. .LarryR

Jan Vigne

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8125
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 02:58 pm:

Still listening, Larry. I would like to compare the CD you sent to the box set of Village Vanguard performances before I make any comments. Though I would say, from the double disc you sent, Shelley Manne and Bill Evans are an odd pairing. They seem to have little in common and appear to go into a piece of music from entirely different directions and end in very different locations. Having heard several other SM performances now, I have not placed him on my "to buy more of" list. I understand he did quite a bit of film work and in that context I can see his style of drumming being quite useful. However, on these two recordings he always sounds as if he is trying to get Evans to do something which Evans doesn't really want to do. Possibly this was a pairing that sounded like a good idea in 1962 and never truly came to fruition.

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1254
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 04:48 pm:

Jan: Right-oh on all points, sir. I have read several places where Manne "pushed" Evans out of his shell. After hearing Evans with other drummers, I agree with you that this pairing was not meant to be, long-haul.

Manne needs to get out and SWING - non too gently, either. I think he's at his best soaked in sweat and buzzing. . .

I await your appraisal, sir. . .

LR

Two Cents

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 746
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 05:44 pm:

Manne can swing hard as heard on his live recordings at the Blackhawk and his own club, Shelly's Manne-Hole. He can also be a sympathetic sideman as heard on Sonny Rollins' "Way Out West" (highly recommended for the music and sound quality). His trio work with Andre Previn is also fine, including their classic recording of "My Fair Lady". Most of his work is solid if not spectacular, although there are a few real duds in his discography. I just felt a need to defend him because he was one of the first to introduce me to jazz, which has led to a wealth of great listening.

Larry, I'm surprised that you're drawn to Charles Lloyd. I didn't think he'd be your cup of tea. What I've heard of him (3 albums from the mid-60's), he sounds more like Coltrane than Desmond. If you like Desmond, you should check out early Jimmy Giuffre, especially the "Jimmy Giuffre 3". He's got a cool, smooth, swinging style that you might enjoy.

As far as the CD cleaning, I've only cleaned a few since I listen mainly to LPs these days. But I have to report that results vary depending on the disc. I heard the biggest difference on the first disc I tried and smaller improvements on others.

Heard from a friend about a cd scratch removal process involving butane and rubbing alcohol. Has anyone tried this?

My Rantz

Silver Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 486
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 05:50 pm:

"Heard from a friend about a cd scratch removal process involving butane and rubbing alcohol. Has anyone tried this?"

2C, no, but I have heard some use Brasso.

Jan Vigne

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8136
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 06:26 pm:

I won't say I dislike Manne's style but I find a little can go along way. He spends too much time up on the cymbals which I guess was part of his signature. In a film or TV score, I think that works on many occasions. If you have an album which starts near the top and builds, maybe I'd hear something different. I suspect his style is more impressive in live performance than I give him credit for here. I have seen his style described as ultimately "musical". Possibly, but not when paired with Evans and most particularly not on the "Empathy" recording. Possibly this is an apt title as the album progresses from a position where Evans seems to be leaving most of the notes unplayed. As the album moves to the end, Evans is playing with a fair amount of swing and Manne's lively drumming technique seems far more appropriate to the mood of the final two selections than to the first few. I notice on the first link of a Google search, his time spent with Evans isn't included in the "performed with" section. The liner notes for "A Simple Matter of Conviction" indicate this is only the second, and last, time Manne recorded with Evans. Does anyone know any more about the history between these two performers?

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Shelly_Manne.html

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1255
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 08:54 pm:

2C - yep - I've got "Way Out West," and have played it many times. good, solid, balanced CD - great sound, and you can tell the musicians really "got together" for the session. Fine CD. . .

Lloyd - well, maybe I overstated my acceptance - I find his style sorta lacking in substance - but then again, it varies from disc to disc. What can I say? I won't be buying a ton of his CDs - but like to dip into it a bit. . .

Jazz has, for me, certain limitations, depending on my mood at listen-time. I'm rather fickle that way, I'm afraid - and the older I get the more coherent I want my jazz to be. No fusion, thank you - and the likes of early Coltrane, Desmond and others please me on a grand scale.

I'm really getting more and more into the "trios" recordings, both jazz and classical. Seems to me to be a great balance.

LR

Nuck

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2036
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 10:51 pm:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/artslife/story.html?id=95adbbbd-4c10-4dd 5-bda7-cc68fd7137fb

News From the Great White North.

My Rantz

Silver Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 519
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 03:12 am:

Well since you guys have been spreading the good word about Bill Evans, I purchased my first CD of his this weekend.

Man, it sure got my toes a tappin'!

Mr Evans can certainly hold his own over the keys whether playing soft laid back jazz or ramping it up with some blues.

This particular album from ESC Records is called "Big Fun" and for sure he and the other musicians are having big fun recording these well engineered pieces.

Funny, he does some interesting things on this album, like backing guest artist Willie Nelson as he croons Steven Stills's "For What It's Worth" and on two other tracks he does the same for Les McCann whose voice seems well matured in a vat of bourbon and nicotine.

The other thing you all might find in this album that probably won't appeal to some of you is that Mr Evans gets into 'fusion jazz' a bit here - and does so very well imho. There is a guest pianist on this album called Clifford Carter who seems quite adept at his trade but doesn't seem to get out in front too much, but I guess that benefit belongs to the main artist and rightly so.

Anyway, I recommend this fine album produced and arranged by Bill Evans and with his band of talented friends I hope he comes back soon and does another. Hopefully it will be as good as if not better than this 2002 effort.

Bill Evans seems equally at home on soprano, alto, tenor and baritone saxophones and you guys thought he was something special on a piano.

Did I getcha?

Gold Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1282
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 09:33 am:

Rantz: So - what's in a name, anyway? (grin) Yeah, big fellah - you got me alright. Wondered how BE could come back after all these years. . .

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14599

And Have a Nice Day - er - Night! (double grin)

LR

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4102
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 04:25 pm:

On "March 31, 2006 - 06:15 am", above, I was "the eternal skeptic" about Daniel Barenboim's Reith lectures.

Please listen, Old Dogs. He's got it. He understands. Improvisation. Hearing or listening. This week; London. Next week; Chicago. Who should listen; everyone.

Larry once asked "Who is Willard White?";- Tune in, even if just for the questions at the end.

In the Beginning was Sound.