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Thread: Archive through March 21, 2006 |
    
Silver Member Username: Dakulis
Spokane,
Washington
United States
Post Number: 805
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 04:11 pm: |
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Jan, Nuck and PF,
Thanks for the ongoing education, some learned and some over the windshield. It's enjoyable to follow along and learn.
Also Jan, just received your recommended Elvis CD and so far, it's great. Unfortunately, I'm still listening on the Heritages for now.
Nuck, I just got back in town and don't know if the AL is repaired yet or if I'm buying two new driver coils for these speakers. BUT, when I know, I'll let you know.
Dave |
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Relevant Product Info
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Bronze Member Username: Whatzzzuppp
Montreal,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 28
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 05:13 pm: |
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hi
if u please
i need help in downloading my reciver
anybody could help.
here is my e-mail
adamzoz@hotmail.com |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7525
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 05:18 pm: |
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"Does not the convenience of function negate the beauty of form sometimes?"
"Should'nt the linearity of the function dictate the future of the form?"
Even for an Italian those seem to be condradictory concepts. (http://www.ineedcoffee.com/03/mokaexpress/?page=2) The beauty of form is best perceived when it amplifies the convenience of use. At least during the last century that would be true. So, yes, the second statement is correct as of the moment the bourgeoisie of the Victorian era were effectively killed off by Stickley and Greene and Greene in America, Gropius in Germany, Meyerhold in Russia and Signore Bialetti in Italy. I would attribute the moment the world altered its course to the act of an insignificant Bosnian-Serb and the death of the Archduke but we now know the bomb was tossed underhand which is not good biomechanical form for an @ssassination.
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Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 698
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 06:02 pm: |
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Even modernists of the 20th c. who espoused "form follows function" gave into the seduction of ornamentation. Take for example Mies van der Rohe, the perfecter of the modern glass and steel skyscraper. Many of his buildings had nonfunctioning I-beams tacked on to the exterior walls to emphasize the linearity of the design and it's utilitarian appearance. He was essentially usually I-beams as ornaments.
I like John A's wife's description of the Primaluna amp as something that belongs in a museum of steam locomotives. |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1295
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 08:29 pm: |
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Where is Berny with a little animation of shovelling coal into 30 year old tube amp?
Jan, I doubt Ferdinand noticed the form of the assassin...function certainly dictated form in that case, although, at the time, a flaming paper bag of dung would have achieved the same result, powder keg and all. |
Bronze Member Username: Darkmusic
Dover,
Delaware
Usa
Post Number: 22
Registered: Apr-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:47 am: |
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Hello people!
I’ve had the opportunity (via Christmas gifts) to try out some different (than stock) tubes on my Jolida 707 integrated amplifier [the 707 uses 4 6L6 outputs, 2 12ax7 preamp, and 2 12 at7 drivers (all the jolida’s stock tubes are probably from China since most of the parts originate in that country)]. I’ve had the jolida since October and have put in approximately 4-5 hours a day listening (while reading and grading my students’ projects). I have a musical fidelity xray cd player (and xbox) and a pair of 1978 tannoy ardens. I know the sound of the jolida with its stock tubes in my system.
I switched out the stock 12 at7s first – I used nos Mullard at7s and after the first 20 hours or so they began to sound warm (the sound seemed to flow out of the speakers and the sound stage, both width and depth, seemed to open up, too – holographic may be a good way to describe it) with my Tannoy Ardens.
Next, I switched the stock 12 ax7s for some EHs – I’m not sure I noticed any change in sound.
I then changed out the stock 6L6s (probably from China) for some “winged C” outputs. Again, I’m not sure I noticed a change in sound (perhaps more pronounced bass).
After every tube set I changed, I listened to the new tubes for 20-25 hours (3-4 days or so) before changing out another set of tubes.
Finally, I changed out the 12at7 mullards for 2 12at7 nos rca’s (santa was very good to the “kid.”). After 70 + hours (two weeks or so) of listening there was a noticeable lack of “warmth” in the sound (the warmth disappeared as soon as I changed to the rcas). Actually, with the rca 12at7 tubes, the Jolida reminds me of my MA6100’s sound (especially in the treble and midrange). I have returned to the mallard 12at7s (but I am keeping the rcas – sorry people).
So…in the nos/ tube department, mullards sound warmer (to me in my system) than rcas. The sound might be different to another person listening to my system or to another person making the same tube changes in another system, right?
I’m thinking that tube sound/ choices cannot be generalized for other systems because the sound experience is subjective (to the listener) and all systems are different. Is this correct? An interesting hobby…
On another note (A#?): I am experiencing a static electricity problem in our sound room. I seeming to be throwing sparks on all metal I touch (does that mean that I’m too positive or too negative?). I have been trying to discharge current before I touch the jolida and the cd player, but it does not always work – I sparked the cd player last night and it’s digital read-out function shut down (I had to power down and up and it returned to proper readout). How do you all keep this problem under control?
Thanks!
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Bronze Member Username: Darkmusic
Dover,
Delaware
Usa
Post Number: 23
Registered: Apr-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:53 am: |
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One last bit of info regarding the static electricity: we have synthetic fiber (yuck) carpet in the sound room. This is probably the source of the problem and the carpet will not be changed out for quite some time... |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7526
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
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You can buy a small floor pad to place in front of the equipment stand that breaks the current flow. Most office supply shops should have these in stock or available. You can also use an anti-static spray on the equipment to minimize any further charges. Several of the audio after market retailers still sell the ZeroStat gun which will remove the static charge from anything you aim it at. Finally, you can place something else in the location of the system that you can discharge to before touching the system. This is a fairly common problem during the winter months when the air in your home is somewhat lower in humidity than at other times. Some people prefer to keep a small humudifier running to take care of that part of the problem.
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7527
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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Thanks for the information. Your example of tube swapping is unfortunately peculiar to your own system and the circuit in which the tubes are placed. I put some Svetlana Winged-C 6L6's into my Mac amplifiers last year and the improvement was obvious even when the amplifiers were cold. However, the Svetlanas were much more reminiscent of the Golden Dragon tubes (one of the best I've had in the Macs) I had used several years previous rather than being similar to the Sovteks I was replacing. In my MC240's the 12AX7's will usually make a shift in the system quality almost as great as replacing the outputs. Not so much in terms of colorations but, as you implied, in the manner in which the music is presented. Particularly with driver tubes the ease with which the music plays in altered perceptibly. Individual instruments will take on a more three dimensional character, large and small dynamics will improve and the ability to listen through the system is enhanced. Along with all that, and most likely accounting for much of the "effect", is a noise floor that changes in amount and character. The "rightness" of the sound is what separates a good tube combination from a poor mix. As with all other aspects of the system, finding tubes which compliment each other's prowess is the key; far more than just swapping out tubes. In a system other than yours, or with other tubes in the circuit, the RCA's might be the perfect choice. I will say I have seldom found what I consider to be the best combination when I mix and match various brands of tubes in one amplifier. I don't always run the same small complement of signal tubes as I do outputs but the best sound I've had through the 240's has come from similar tubes brands being in place in as many locations in the amplifiers as possible.
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7528
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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2c - Why don't you explain more why some music sounds better with a particular tube type. What is it about the sound of an EL34 that you think does or doesn't work well with some music? And do you think it's just the tube type or something else in the combination of system pieces that contributes to what you are hearing?
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Gold Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1314
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
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I keep a ground strap at the amp, wrist type for just that reason, RAC.
Depending on the thickness or your soul, of course.
Soal? |
Bronze Member Username: Darkmusic
Dover,
Delaware
Usa
Post Number: 24
Registered: Apr-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:48 am: |
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Jan and Nuck:
Thanks for the electro-static advice.
I'll go to staples asp.
I have another question regarding preamp and driver tubes:
In my j707, the 12ax7 is designated preamp tube and the 12at7 is designated (power) driver. Are there preamps that use the ax7 as a driver tube and the at7 as a preamp tube (the opposite of the 707 design)? Or maybe the tube choice/ compliment is the designer’s option?
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Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 700
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
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Jan,
It's hard to isolate each distinct sonic difference between the EL34 (Svetlana) and KT88 (Chinese made Genalex copies). The main difference I hear between the two is the EL34 seems to offer a little more harmonic richness to the midrange, particularly noticeable on vocals. The KT88 sounds slightly "flatter" in this range, not necessarily thin. Dynamics and bass resolution are slightly better with the KT88s. I prefer the El34s because I value a more believable presentation of the midrange at the expense of a slightly tubby sounding lower bass and reduced dynamics. On the PL2 the differences aren't huge. I wonder if it has anything to do with the autobiasing feature?
I think RAC's post points out how the results of tube rolling really depends on the system. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7535
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:40 pm: |
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"Or maybe the tube choice/ compliment is the designer’s option?"
Yep!
The 12AX7 is the classic pre amp tube. The entire 12 series tubes are based on similar design goals and vary in only a few specifications. Get out your RCA Tube Guide and compare the differences.
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7536
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:50 pm: |
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2c - That's a good basic description of the EL34 vs. a KT88. Of course, there are variations in each tube with the EL34 being the North American designation for a tube type while the KT88 is a European variant of a 6550 (American) tube. There are also military and heavy duty examples of both tubes along with some specialty variations of most tube types. A KT88 sounds somewhat different than a 6500 also, the KT designating a "kinkless" tube type.
In between both pentodes is the 6L6GC/KT66 which, by many designer's estimation either captures the best of both the EL34 and the 6550 or does justice to neither and has a characteristic sound all its own. The EL34 and 6550 are typical examples of a pentode output tube. The 6L6GC is more frequently described as a Beam Power output tube or, more correctly, a tetrode.
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Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 702
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:12 am: |
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Jan, I've read that military grade 12 series tubes generally sound better than the commercial grade tubes. Do you find this to be true? Does it also apply to output tubes? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1338
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:15 am: |
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And are the mil spec tubes better due to standard 200% testing, or are they $800 toilet seat? |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7541
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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Like most things military, the tubes designed for use while bombs are dropping is overbuilt for reliability and longevity. Most of the small signal tubes designed for military use will be considerably less microphonic. The latter attribute is, I think, what appeals to many consumers, particularly when using the tubes in a pre amp. Many of the small signal tubes rated LN (low noise) will come from military spec designs. As with all things tubes, it is difficult to generalize about military spec tubes but that should cover the benefits you're likely to find in those designs.
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Gold Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1344
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:15 pm: |
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At least the common man can get something for all the tax dollars fed into the machine.
Sorry if that's too personal or political, but glass half full, take what you get.
Jan you are a proud Texan, but voted for the other guy, ja?
Ya gotta come visit Canada, if you want to see a really screwy place. |
Bronze Member Username: Darkmusic
Dover,
Delaware
Usa
Post Number: 25
Registered: Apr-05
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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"The 12AX7 is the classic pre amp tube. The entire 12 series tubes are based on similar design goals and vary in only a few specifications. Get out your RCA Tube Guide and compare the differences."
Unfortunately, Santa didn't drop that book into my stocking...
Jan:
Could/ would the 12aux, 12ax7 and 12at7 tube-types be safely interchanged/ swapped out in preamps (and/ or tuners or cd players)? I am not contemplating performing such an action with the j707; I'm just curious (and I do remember what happened to "the cat").
By the way, I've connected the Ling IIs back to the j707. Wow. Good vocal presentation and imaging. The soundstage seems to change depending upon the cd/ engineer... It seems a shame listeners are not given an opportunity to re-mix albums (I'd like to have a go at Exile on Main Street and Leon Russell and the Shelter People!) -- though I did here of a new cd release that gives the buyer the option to download software to remix the tracks.
Have a good afternoon people!
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7548
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:56 pm: |
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More often than not, I've found the highest recommendations go to the military tubes from Russia and the smaller European nations. American military tubes were an almost extinct breed not long after WWII and TI was put on the map. By that time, Williamson, McIntosh, Marantz and Hafler had gone out of their way to get the most out of a lowly Sylvania 12AX7. Then came Pentodes!!!! Then came silicon!!!!!!!!!!
A Texan? Not by any native Texan's accounting. I was born in (Southern, don't call me a Yankee) Illinois and spent the first 26 years of my life there. When I arrived in Dallas in 1978, I was shocked to find the politician who would be a conservative Illinois Republican would be considered a wild eyed Democratic Liberal in the Texas legislature. As to the "other guy", I've made my views known regarding "the guy".
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Gold Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1350
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:14 pm: |
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I dig. No more politico.
But you really should visit Canada. |
Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 66
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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Well. I have a used pair of Six Pacs on the way from Audiogon. I am really looking forward to trying triode sound! I also ordered an AES AH-3 DJH from Upscale:
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=28&catid=29
I will have an A/B/C/D comparison. What I don't prefer gets sold (or returned to Upscale).
Jan, we touched on this before, but is the Six Pacs 80dB S/N ratio any cause for concern? I really cannot handle noise or hum. If they hum, right back on Audiogon they go. The PL stuff is dead quite and S/N is quoted at 101 - this seems like a simple spec but I don't know how closely those two facts are correlated.
Dick Cheney should be allowed to shoot anyone he wants.
Paul
P.S. Jan, do you agree that amps that can switch triode/ultralinear are a bit gimmicky? I mean, it can really only do one or the other really well, right? |
Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 67
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 01:42 pm: |
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Well. I have a used pair of Six Pacs on the way from Audiogon. I am really looking forward to trying triode sound! I also ordered an AES AH-3 DJH from Upscale:
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=28&catid=29
I will have an A/B/C/D comparison. What I don't prefer gets sold (or returned to Upscale).
Jan, we touched on this before, but is the Six Pacs 80dB S/N ratio any cause for concern? I really cannot handle noise or hum. If they hum, right back on Audiogon they go. The PL stuff is dead quite and S/N is quoted at 101 - this seems like a simple spec but I don't know how closely those two facts are correlated.
Dick Cheney should be allowed to shoot anyone he wants.
Paul
P.S. Jan, do you agree that amps that can switch triode/ultralinear are a bit gimmicky? I mean, it can really only do one or the other really well, right? |
Gold Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 1371
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 05:34 pm: |
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Given the choice, Paul, I would rather be shot by Sela Ward or Joe Walsh.
Unfortunately, being shot seldom includes the choice of inflictor.
Let usknow about the six's. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7557
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 05:51 pm: |
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Anyone who wants should be able to take a shot (verbally or in print) at Dick Cheney. And anyone he tells to sign legislation.
Yes, I think switching from pentode to triode operation is gimmicky. Ultralinear was adopted by Hafler to supposedly give the benefits of triode operation to pentode power. Mixing all the various configurations at the flip of a switch (not to mention adding or subtracting NFB) is, to me, simply an exercise in either marketing or audio nervosa. Why are you anxious to hear the "sound" of triodes? It is this idea that you should be looking forward to a sound colored by the operational techniques of your system that I find disturbing. And I'm usually one of those "anything goes, if it feels right" liberals. I understand I'm taking your words a bit too literally here, but this marketing of tubes has reached a ridiculous degree in my estimation. I'm not at all for analytical sounding systems and I can't tell you I have ever enjoyed a pre amp as much as a Conrad Johnson PV-5 with all its tube sound intact, but, please, are there no limits to what the audio manufacturers will do to sell product?
Don't worry about the specs. The numbers you see don't even include the mechanical buzzing of transformers. If it makes noise, send it back.
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Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 68
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 06:05 pm: |
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Well, Jan, I think you're misunderstanding me. Why do you assume I'm talking about any sort of coloration when I speak of "triode sound"? Do you contend that there are no general differences between triode and pentode/ultralinear, or tube/transistor for that matter, outside of colorations? I know you don't think that!
I'm not looking for "pleasant distortions".
I'm not looking for the "classic" forward midrange of tubes which IS coloration.
I'm looking for the ultra-magical midrange warmth and vast soundstaging that many speak of in regard to triode amps.
My PL gear already gives me tons of that sort of magic. It is truly magical for me - qualities I have NEVER heard out of solid-state equipment. The lushness, the realism of the soundstage, etc. I NEVER tire of listening to music anymore! Many people claim that triode operation REALLY excells in these areas and, well, I want to see for myself, in my system. So, I bought some gear that I can sell for what I paid for it if I decide against it. I sought out and bought what I think is possibly the best example of a moderately-priced all-triode monoblock of reasonable power (>=40W).
Hope that makes more sense.
I do agree the neg. feedback switch also smacks of gimmicky-ness. Apparantly Mr. Had considers it educational - he strongly favors NO negative feedback and designed the amps to sound good that way.
Paul
P.S. If Cheney shot me in the face, I'd ask him to autograph the shell.
Actually, I consider voting a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils.
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7563
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 08:11 pm: |
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I disagree with your asssessment of voting. You shouldn't have to pick the lesser of any or all evils. You should have your ideas and believes firmly in place when picking which direction you wish to take the country, state or city. Personally, I think it is regrettable that too many people vote against a particular candidate instead of voting for a direction in which to move forward.
If you truly believe Cheney would bother to autograph anything presented by a middling citizen, I think you have misunderstood how Dick feels the party and the government works.
I admitted I was probably taking your comments too literally. It is the marketing of colorations that I object to. People are set up to experience tube "magic" and are often disappointed when they either hear old school tube warmth or new school coolness in a tube product. Much of my disappointment, however, stems from the fact that people all too often pick the sound of their systems with no reference for real music. It goes back to using the stereo in your truck or Lexus as the reference for what music should sound like. It is a long standing problem I have and I sometimes let it interfere with my opinions of what other people might like. You, and everyone else, are free to own and listem to whatever floats your bladder. I certainly do! However, if it is tube coloration you are after, don't mess with all this middlin' crap; go directly to a CJ PV-5 or a Marantz 7C. I can promise you audio bliss and a positive return on your investment. Unless you prefer Mott the Hoople (sp.?) to Sinatra there is nothing I've heard, or know of, which will seduce you quite like these products.
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New member Username: Wafflesdos
Post Number: 1
Registered: Feb-06
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 12:57 am: |
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Hi every body. I have a L5 solo baric running on a Rockford 700s. It work fine for a day until there was a burning smell comming out of the speaker. The coils are still intact, but I unistall the sub inmediatelly. I had the sub running at 4 ohms (two coils in series) and my amp bridged. The amp only pushes 350 continuos watts @ 4ohms, so, What's going on? help |
Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 69
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
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What is the deal with the random, unrelated questions in this thread? Why always THIS thread?
Raul, unless you are having a problem with a tube amp, or tubes, or perhaps a tube top (?), this isn't the place. Thanks.
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Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 70
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 11:18 am: |
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Jan,
I didn't offer an assessment of voting nor anything I was seeking an opinion on. :-} I was speaking of my view of the current two parties. I have deeply held convictions indeed but the problem, over which I have no control, is that neither party comes very close to realizing them. Thus, my choice IS between the one I dislike the least (and, unfortunately, that happens to be not the side you're on). Anyway, we should probably cease on this tangent before we run amok, eh? I'm not easily offended at all but I did read the entire archive of this thread including that instance of one of the sr. contributors leaving (temporarily, I think) over political arguments!
You've confused me the 2nd part of your post because I am not after tube coloration, which I thought I'd stated. Although, I can't say I heard it and probably those amps in question do sound wonderful. But, I do hold that any colorations are antithetical to the audiophile spirit and should be avoided. I think you agree, no?
I'd imagine most people feel this way (or at least most reviewers) and that is why "new school" tube gear doesn't have this sound?
Paul
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Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2770
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
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Politics lead us into trouble before perhaps we should save it for another thread at another forum. I for one have decided to not talk politics here as it leads to hard feelings between good people and it's not worth it to me. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7578
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 01:38 pm: |
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This thread gets the laziest "I don't want to read anything that doesn't relate to me" type of questions for that very reason. They see "Amps" and figure it must be car stereo since they don't have the common sense or ability to scroll down to "car stereo" on the forum. These are the people who share the road with you.
"I'm not looking for the "classic" forward midrange of tubes which IS coloration."
We will now begin splitting hairs. Old school tube sound. New school tube sound. I agree there is most often a distinct difference in those two approaches to designing, marketing and buying audio equipment. It is the present day marketing and how that marketing affects the design and selling of tube equipment which I most disagree with and the idea that too many listeners buy what they consider a "sound". (I certainly have raised objections to the inaccurate but basic concept promoted all too frequently on this forum that pairing a "warm" sounding amplifier with a "bright" sounding speaker will assuage the problems inherent in both designs.) Obviously, I'm not one who believes the overly simplistic concept that any well designed amplifier ... not driven into clipping ... double blind test ... yada, yada can't pick which is playing, etc. I made my living for twenty five years knowing there were people who could hear, appreciate and understand the auditory and perceptual differences between a Yamaha receiver and a McIntosh power amp. However, the more you listen through top notch amplification, the more you must come to the conclusion there are essentially only colorations which affect what you hear when you compare one excellent amplifier to another excellent amplifier. They are colorations we seldom can measure and colorations which can be pleasing to one listener and unpleasant to another; but they are colorations none the less. It might amount to nothing more than a similar preference for sitting in the first three rows at one performance hall or the middle dozen rows at the same venue, but we all choose the colorations which we find most pleasing to us. In my mind we should accept the fact that colorations are what we choose no matter how neutral we wish our systems to pretend to be. Unless we turn our listening room into an anechoic chamber we can hearing little but the various forms of coloration the room insists upon adding to even the most neutral component's sound.
I find the marketing of "tube magic" to be excessive and misleading to the audiophile public as a group. Quite a lot of this stems from the concepts of defining and delineating what we hear only to put that experience into words we read and assimilate by way of our personal experiences. (A very long thread which drew many hostilities was not long ago devoted to this concept.) Words are used to create the desire for something different than what we presently own. I have no problem with marketing as such, it serves a common purpose, provides insights into the sometimes fanciful world which is the creative process, crosses the line into art when done well and, at a much lower level, I have spent some amount of time writing those very words to promote stores where I was employed and products I wished to sell. My problem starts when those words create an impression that there is something amiss with what we presently own and there is a solution at the end of your credit card statement. (No, I'm not making any judgements about debt in America, it was merely a figure of speech.)
I've already made it known that most of the clients with whom I dealt while selling audio admitted to never hearing live music and cartainly never to any music that wasn't amplified. I have also made my preference for holding live music as a personal reference to be indispensible, in my opinion, when judging audio equipment. So, many of my opinions and biases relate to the dichotomy of those two facts. I don't expect anyone else to hold the same beliefs as I do, just to accept that these are well reasoned, or so I would like to believe, impressions I have spent time debating in my own sales career and in assembling my personal system over the last few decades. I make no pretense to not owning forty year old amplifiers which I've had in my possession for over twenty years. How that colors my thoughts, I will leave to the reader to judge.
Without rehashing too much of what was said in the thread "Do You Listen" and trying to keep this relatively brief, I would suggest we consider what old school tube sound might be. Tubby, loose bass; rolled highs and foward midrange are good beginnings for any discussion of old school tube sound. For the most part, not what many listners would consider attractive when stated in those terms. But, old school it is because that covers the generic sound of most of what preceeded the revivification of vacuum tubes in the late 1970's. At that time old school tube sound was still very much in evidence in many of what are today considered the ruminations of new school tube sound. A CJ PV-5 is an excellent example of what old school tube sound offered in the late 1970's against the likes of a steely, impersonal solid state amplifier. Tubes would not have been revived had transistors not failed up to that point. in the same fashion as today, once tubes were back in the marketplace, reviewers were quick to point out solid state amplifiers which sounded more "tube like". Seldom was the reverse image to be conceived.
Old school tube sound for the most part however ignores the many examples of excellent tube gear sold during that Golden Age of thermionic design from the late 1950's through the early 1970's. Irregardless of the fact that a Mac MC275, Marantz 8B or Citation II will fetch I've-got-more-than-you sums of money on the used market for whatever reason the buyer chooses, they were good sounding amplifiers in the first place. They all originally used what are now considered the Holy Grail for tubeophiles; NOS tubes. Except the tubes weren't new "old" stock at that point, they were new tubes. No one then sought out grey plates, black plates or flat plates with the same zeal or iconic value with which those very items are promoted today.
Quickly, my point is the new old stock/school tubes which today we snatch up at fantastic prices are the very tubes that were part and parcel of old school tube design. (To be fair, I have NOS tubes in my pre amp at this very moment; though they were purcahsed when they were far closer to new stock than old stock. And an octet of NOS Gold Lion KT66's from the 1960's are still the best "sound" I've literally pulled out of my MC240's. Unfortunately, they were not mine and could only spend the weekend with the Macs.) The very tubes we adoringly insert into our new school amplifiers to inject some old school "magic" seems, to me at least, to be at odds with what we say we want and what we own. We take from the old, which we reject out of hand, to use in the new, which we hold in solemn respect as separate and better than the old, in order to make the new seem more old. Some how. Further we take the very old school concept of single ended triodes and want them to be a new school design while using old school output tubes in the amplifiers. I hope you see where I'm going with this.
It is not the tube nor the topology that creates "magic", it is the colorations, both physical and spiritual if you will, of the circuit as a whole. It is the "sound" and "magic" of a paper in oil capacitor or a choke regulated power supply which we want; and fortunately both are becoming in vogue once again. We rewire a pentode to sound as if it were a triode. But now we do it all at the flick of a switch. In. Out. In. Out. Listen again!
I admit to taking all of this entirely too seriously. Much of it comes from when I was selling not to people who wanted a better stereo system but to those people who wanted magic at their fingertips. Not to people who wanted their systems to emulate what they had heard at the performance hall last night but to recreate in their room what they had read about in this month's audio rag. (I always enjoyed dealing with those people who wanted a modest system, had never heard of Stereophile or Absolute Sound and seldom were seen again once they were satisfied. It wasn't all that good for my wallet but it was satisfying to my way of thinking to have a few customers a month like that.)
Unlike some people, I cannot look into your eyes and envision your soul. I have no idea whether your intentions for buying a new amplifier are for the sake of the music or the sake of a new toy. That really isn't for me to judge and, PF, if you feel that is what I am doing in your case, I suspect and hope you are incorrect. It is your money and you can do with it as you please. It is the manner in which the products are promoted to an often unsuspecting and uneducated public that I am objecting to. And I am objecting to the public's gullibility in accepting such ideas.
To go further with this train wreck of a thought will require more space and effort than I think I can muster here. It comes down to a perpetual debate between anyone interested in music and/or audio. There will be no resolution. You must hear what "triode sound" is before you can understand and discuss triode sound. I perfectly understand that and I am as addicted to audio gear as the next person in line for that now discontinued (NOS) Black Gate capacitor being auctioned on eBay.
To put it as simply as posible, I think most audiophiles put the cart before the pentode and too often miss the whole point of the issues at hand by focusing on what the magazines and web sites want us to buy into. Any more thought than that on the topic will have to wait. I'm working on several nights with too little sleep and my best discretion says go fire up the LaSignora espresso pot and read what a mess I've made of this reply at a later time in the day.
'Til then!
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Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3929
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 02:26 pm: |
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That is a generous and wise reply, Jan.
"Do you listen" was one of the most challenging and interesting threads, here, in my opinion.
We saw there that very many HiFi owners think of a recording as the ultimate source of music, and do not consider live music as a reference for how their systems sound.
I agree that this is not "right" or "wrong", but is very difficult to see how to evaluate what is good or bad if there is no reference at all on which people can agree; that is, if there is nothing outside the various audio systems, to which the sounds they produce can be compared. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 7583
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 06:01 pm: |
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I would hope my previous reply would state the rather obvious case for many audiophiles being a curious but oft times schizophrenic lot. Nothing new there, really.
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
Orlando,
Florida
USA
Post Number: 1298
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 06:15 pm: |
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schizophrenic lot......
Ya think???????? LOL! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3934
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 05:03 pm: |
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I wonder who had the better HiFi, Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde...? |
Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 71
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 06:29 pm: |
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I was auditioning at my fav local dealer last year and he introduced me to the other customer in the store - "Mr Hyde". And it turns out Mr. Hyde owns a pair of $30,000 Tannoy Kingdom speakers. No lie.
Well, that was worth posting, right?! |
Silver Member Username: Dakulis
Spokane,
Washington
United States
Post Number: 819
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 06:31 pm: |
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John A,
They had very different listening tastes those two and I doubt that you could ever convince either one that their system was worse than the other's, even if it was the same system. However, I also suspect that you would likely reason more with the doctor than the mister, and live to talk about it, anyway!!! LOL |
Silver Member Username: My_rantz
Australia
Post Number: 284
Registered: Nov-05
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| Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
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"I wonder who had the better HiFi, Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde...?"
Okay, I'll add my 2cents worth to this frivolity. It is a well known fact that Mr Hyde was partial to 'Hi' while Dr Jeckyll was into 'Fi'
It was only during the transition phase when they were as one was it really possible for them to appreciate "HiFi" but unfortunately they had a whole lot of other stuff happening during those phases.
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Bronze Member Username: Paulfolbrecht
Post Number: 72
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 01:58 pm: |
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Hi Jan,
Finally got around to digesting your post. Had only a few minutes here and there over the weekend.
1st reaction was that I'm surprised to hear you stating that "it's all about colorations" (that's a paraphrase). I just thought there was more to it than that - more to the differences between various amps. Certainly soundstaging and the closely related concept of imaging can be affected by the amplification used, no? Perhaps you are suggesting that differences in coloration actu | |
