Archive through January 13, 2006

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 654
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 03:25 am:

KEGGER

How about just one

------yep-------

?

Relevant Product Info

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 11
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 03:06 pm:

After three weeks of listening and experimentation with the Jolida 707, the Musical Fidelity x-ray cd player and the Musical Fidelity x-box (cd buffer) with tannoy arden speakers, I have come to some interesting (and very subjective) conclusions:
1. Without the cd buffer, the speakers have more bass with the 4 ohm tap; however, there is more of a warm, open sound when the speakers are run through the 8 ohm tap.

2. With the cd buffer in place (and running the speakers from the 8 ohm tap), the bass really isn’t veiled or muffled (as I once thought) but rather it is farther back in the soundstage. In fact, with the cd buffer, the soundstage shifts from a rather 2 dimensional soundstage to a three dimensional, 180 degree (deep) soundstage. I have some recordings that sound like I could walk into the session and dance with the band. This is “trick” indeed. But I would like to bring the bass forward – perhaps different tubes for Christmas.

I would like to know how two 6112 tubes can/ could produce this deep soundstage. Anyone have any ideas?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6429
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 03:48 pm:

As far as the elecronics are concerned, soundstaging is mostly a function of maintaining the phase relationships of the signal from input to output. Probably the best way to explain what you're hearing with the X-box inserted in the signal path would be to say you are hearing what the tubes and the circuit around them are doing to the phase relationships of the signal. Some degree of change to the frequency response is likely to be involved in the effect also due to impedance changes in the X-box.

I believe MF once referred to what the tube buffer would do in the system is to "straighten out" the signal. It seems an odd way to consider what the buffer does since we usually want the electronics to merely pass the signal from in to out with the least amount of change as possible. It is nothing more than a buffer stage and as such its effectiveness is mostly in the improved match between output imedance of the buffer stage and input impedance of the amplifier. This also never made much sense to me since it almost implies MF has done a poor job of designing the X-ray player.

I think a call to MF might be either illuminating or obfuscating. Either way, if you decide to give them a call, let us know what they say.

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 660
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:50 am:

I've wondered about this as well. Theoretically a passive preamp should do the best job of transmitting the signal from the source to the amp. However I find myself prefering the sound of an active tube preamp. Not only does it seem to improve the soundstage as RAC suggests, but seems to provide more body to the sound--notes sound like they're produced by instruments and not electronics. It makes me wonder whether I just prefer the distortion created by a tube preamp.

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 661
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 12:00 pm:

On the tube rolling front, I just replaced the stock KT88 tubes on my Prologue 2 with Svetlana EL34s. So far, I've noticed a slight improvement in the upper midrange. Acoustic instruments and female vocals sound more real and airy. Bass is still there but sounds looser. Differences though aren't dramatic.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6435
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

Regarding the passive pre amp, the problem with the basic idea of passive units is they are seldom correct for what you are using then for. Throughout the signal path from source to speakers, the voltage representing the fluctuating signal is passing from stage to stage to stage along the way. Whether this is passing from one gain stage to another gain stage or from pre amp to power amp (still basically two gain stages), the impedance match between the two stages must be correct or else the transfer process will suffer.

Using a CD/DVD player as your source there is little chance for a too low output voltage from the player affecting the transfer. However most CD/DVD player's output impedances are designed to operate into the average input impedance of an active pre amp. (Pull up the specs on a few high end pre amps to see what this number averages.) The impedance is normally stepped down a notch inside the pre amp's circuitry (solid state more so than tubes on average) and will be sent through a potentiometer that can vary from 10kOhms to 150 kOhms in impedance. After passing through the VC, the impedance is again taken back down to the output impedance of the pre amp. The "ideal" output impedance for a pre amp is around 600 Ohms which should allow it to drive fairly long cables). To arrive at this figure, pre amps will often employ buffering circuits (which is what the X-box is - just a buffering circuit) to maintain a constant output impedance independent of voltage and frequency as it works into the input circuitry of the power amp.

There are several potential problems with substituting a passive pre amp for all of this circuitry. The first is the volume control chosen for the passive design. No potentiometer can be at the same impedance and operate properly. By its very nature, the potentiometer is always changing its impedance to vary the output level. This means the best match to the iput is at one position only on the volume control. (A simple pot as opposed to a stepped resistor vc makes matters worse since "all" of the pot's resistance is in contact with the output at all times. A stepped resistor vc places just one resistor in the signal path at any one volume setting.) Using this arrangement the passive vc/pre amp will be "correct" as far as the CD/DVD player is concerned when you play at the correct volume level for the impedance match and at no other point will the input and output match properly. The input impedance the player wishes to see is seldom the output impedance the power amp wishes to see. With an impedance mismatch between the passive pre amp and the power amp's input circuitry, any anomoly in the interconnect cables in the way of higher than average capacitance, inductance or resistance will further affect the transfer between the two "circuits".

All of this means that with the possible exception of only one point on the vc, if the input and output impedances are fortunately matched, will the passive pre amp's function be correct. The incorrect values will affect frequency response and dynamics for the most part.

A new generation of passive designs is being marketed with stepped resisitor vc's and autoformers on the outputs of the vc's. These autoformers maintain a constant output impedance and act as a simplified passive buffer between the pre amp and power amp. Unfortunately, a very high quality autoformer with minimal signal loss or alteration is expensive and you have put the passive design back at the price of an simple active circuit pre amp or higher. Usually the passive will still have less flexibility than the active device. So this option has tended to appeal to the hair shirt, 2.5 watt S.E.T. crowd who want the simplest, straightest signal path possible. (No offense meant to anyone using a S.E.T.)

The next option is to use a passive pre amp in an integrated amplifier where the universality of the pre amp circuit is not an issue. The new Exposure integrated has such a pre amp "circuit".

Of course, there are plenty of people who think audiophiles just like certain "pleasant" distortions in all of their equipment.

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 12
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 11:37 am:

Well, musical fidelity did not provide an answer/ response to my query. But I have been thinking about the xbox and the jolida: Shouldn’t the preamp section of the jolida perform the same function as the xbox?
Well, I thought the preamp should (add depth to the soundstage), but it doesn’t sound like it to me.
The more I think of the jolida-xbox-xray combination, the more I am vaguely reminded of the brief time I spent with a Carver Hologram Generator. Hold on; let me finish: I am not advocating the use of the HG, but what the device did to some systems was interesting at first (depending upon the source material) but then the experience became annoying.
I seem to remember the HG creating a deeper soundstage. I first heard the device used on my father’s system: audio research pre and amp and huge Fulton speakers (the memory of the sound that system produced --without the HG--still makes me smile). I briefly used the HG with a MA6100 and tannoy speakers in the early 1980’s. I remember that the HG delayed the channel signals somehow.
That sense of deep (180 degree) soundstage and instrument placement I hear with the jolida-mf setup is reminiscent of the HG effect (but not annoying).
Anyway...just ramblings between classes...
Jan, are you now associated with Alegria Audio?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6519
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 12:59 pm:

"But I have been thinking about the xbox and the jolida: Shouldn’t the preamp section of the jolida perform the same function as the xbox?"

Certainly you would hope it would. Not all pre amps contain buffer stages. Most do, but some designers feel buffers are an additional level of circuitry the signal must pass through and therefore distain their inclusion in a "well designed" product. Normally this scheme works fine if you are mating their pre amp with their power amp. Of course, this overlooks the majority of those audiophiles who prefer to choose separates on the basis of picking each component they feel suits their needs most satisfactorily.

You probably will find the outboard buffer stage adds some pleasant effects on some recordings. Most of what you will hear will probably depend on the level of simplicity used in the recording.

*********

I assume you ask about my relationship with Alegria Audio since I have suggested their product on several ocassions. No, I am not associated with Alegria in any official capacity.

As you should know, I seldom make product recommendations on the forum. I virtually never get involved in whether one receiver is "better" than another. I abstain from suggesting speaker "X" mates well with amplifier "Y". However, my experience with the Alegria product and with Tim indicate a company that is well worth pointing out to other members of the forum. Everything I've heard from the product, and the ideas I've exchanged with Tim, suggest this is a company that should be getting a bit more press on the forum than he has been allowed by those who have benefited from his generousity.

Obvbiously Tim didn't send a pair of speakers around the country just to have another demo pair of Lings available. He got some benefit from the exposure also. However, for the quality of the product I heard, considering the price of the product I heard, I think Alegria is well worth suggesting. Tim and I are 1500 miles apart and we have never met face to face nor even communicated on the phone. What I read from Tim and the response on the DIY speaker builders forums to the drivers and the technology he employs indicate he and I would probably like most of the same products as we apparently listen for similar qualities in our systems.

Certainly you wouldn't ask if I were in the employ of Quad because I've ocassionally suggested they are a great speaker. Nor would you ask if other people who push their favorites at every opportuniy are employed by Panasonic, Ascend, JBL, etc.

Just curious, but why did you ask me?

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 13
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 11:29 am:

Jan:
Although my tannoy ardens have been with me (or in storage) since 1978 (each speaker has been re-coned once), and I love their sound, they are just “so d*** big. Thus, I am beginning to read up on speakers – floor standing and smaller. I have been looking at totem and spendor, but then…
I have been following discussions on ecoustics, and on the “ling thing” thread it appeared to me that you wrote the set-up instructions for the Lings (and had heard them and reviewed them, too). I remembered that you have a pair Rogers (similar to spendors, yes?). And I thought, well…if you found the Lings interesting (enough to write setup instructions), perhaps I should do some reading (and research) in that direction. I have been impressed with your questions and answers on the forum, thus I thought that if you found the product interesting enough (perhaps interesting enough to be connected with the company), I would give the company/ products a closer look. Thus, I asked if you were now associated with Alegria.
On the other hand, my cynical nature often suggests to me that everyone is selling something; thus I listen; I filter from as many sides as possible (as Walt Whitman might say), and then I decide (or sometimes I don’t decide) for myself. I am trying to moderate my cynical nature, but it is a continuing and often discouraging process…%).
I remain, however, very curious about the Ling I and II and the Emma.
Music is most amazing hobby!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6525
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 12:37 pm:

I would certainly encourage you to look at the products from Alegria. I think the company has some outstanding values as Tim has priced his product to get his foot in the door more than he has to make a living at this point. Drop him a note and I'm sure he'll be happy to give you more information on his line of speakers.

I wrote the set up instructions for my specific audition of the Ling. Though I would expect them to be relevant to anyone using the Ling, the instructions I provided were for what I wanted the speaker to accomplish. They were posted largely in response to not only what I heard but also to some previous comments by listeners who thought the Ling to be too reserved. I suspected those listeners had just plunked the Lings on a stand and not given much, if any, consideration to how set up affects the final outcome. I hope my comments indicate you should work just a bit to get a speaker to sound good instead of just following accepted tweaks, as if all speakers were the same. It is a theme I echoed not that long ago on a thread concerning tweaks where I suggested you actually listen to the results of the tweak and that you have a direction in mind for what results you want to achieve instead of just doing every tweak and assuming they all are beneficial to your situation.

I spent two weeks with the Lings in two systems in my house. The time in the HT room was minimal and gave me an idea what to expect. In the main stereo system, the Lings did impress me. They have some seriously obvious design benefits that at times put them slightly ahead of the Rogers. That's not bad considering the "legend" of the LS3/5a's and the respective price difference between the two speakers. They also have some obvious disadvantages; but none so serious I couldn't think of any other speaker in the same price range merely trading one flaw for another. I think my assessment of why someone shouldn't consider buying the Lings is fair. If your situation doesn't have those limitations, then the Ling certainly impresses for a very small price. I understand Tim has incorporated some changes since the Ling audition has ended; and this has probably resulted in a slightly better product than the one I heard. And, of course, if your budget can stretch to the slightly higher priced speakers Tim is producing, many of the limitations of the Ling will be mitigated by the benefits of more cash being devoted to solving problems inherent in any budget design.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6526
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 12:40 pm:

All that said, I realize the under $1,000 price range is very, very competitive and there are more than a usual share of excellent values in speakers for that amount of money. That the Ling is fairly unique in its approach to sound is still an appealing quality to me. Despite their sometimes too obvious limitations, single driver speakers of any kind intrigue me to no end.

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 659
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 02:31 pm:

Jan,

Very nice updates and thoughts on your time with the Lings. I'll have to check in with Tim to find out what "tweaks" he incorporated. I must say that you set-up instructions on the Lings led me to change my set-up of my Ascends for the better, at least on the fronts; the rears are stuck where they are but, at least, they're at ear listening level and in close to a decent position. However, the above wasn't the real point of my post.

The Fisher amp is coming along and should be completed by the end of November. The reconing of the Altecs are also going to be completed by then and my friend will bring them over and assist in the set-up, including loaning me a very good SPL meter. I've got the CD player waiting and a number of my reference CDs available for a listen. So, I was just providing an update on my life since I've been buried and haven't been able to spend much time on the forum.

I'll check in as time permits and changes occur. Thanks, Dave.

Timn8ter

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 629
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 03:49 pm:

Talkin' about me in front of my back eh?
Hi Randy!
Jan and I have kinda hit it off on the audio front. I appreciate that Jan is "mature" in the world of audio and like his approach to things. As Jan has said, we have no relationship beyond that. Following Jan's feedback I made a minor adjustment to handle some of the backwave reflection of the main driver inside the cabinet. It's a subtle difference but one I felt was worthy of incorporating as part of the regular design.
Unassociated to that I've also recently revisited my Rosa LCR and improved the crossover design. The results were both unexpected and very satisfying. I'm not usually a big fan of d'Appolito configurations and built this one with home theater in mind but I have to say I'm impresssed with the presence this speaker creates when playing music. Even my wife (she who knows what she likes) used the term "presence" when she heard the speaker before I said anything. That surprised me because I've never heard that word come out of her mouth ("presents" perhaps but not "presence").
This throws one more option into the mix as if there weren't enough already.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2682
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:31 am:

------yep-------

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2683
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:35 am:

Sorry to those that have asked about me and my deepest thanks!
"including emails"

But how's it going in tube land?

(SM I saw your post in the dog's thread good to see your giving movies a try)

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 15
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:17 pm:

Kegger:
Welcome back and a "thank you" dating back to 30 September on this thread.

My Rantz

Bronze Member

Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 64
Registered: Nov-05

Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:28 pm:

Kegger

So it's true - you ARE still alive. Good!

:-)

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2684
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 02:44 am:

Yes Rantz I am sill alive and KIKIN! I see you have some new toy's.
No tubes though,,,,,,,, YET! LOL!

RAC you are welcome, hows yur tubin goin?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6889
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:03 am:

Kegger - It's good to hear from you. How's business?

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2685
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:23 pm:

OH I'm still trying to find something and will hopefully have something here shortly.

Thanks for askin!

Nobody's got anything new to add in tubeville?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6899
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:33 pm:

Nope!

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2686
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:16 am:

Jan "or anyone else" have any experience with ADS speakers?

Here's a couple pic's of the pair I'm using.

They are a sealed 3-way design with a 10" woofer and dome mid/tweet.
"yes they need a little more power then the 300B can give them" LOL!
Either the rogue 88 at 60wpc or the GTA se-40 at 40wpc do fine on them.

Upload

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 734
Registered: May-05

Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 02:28 am:

Something new in tube land, finally.

I spoke with my buddy yesterday. It seems he has finished the amp but hasn't had a chance to play it with the Altec Lansings. His parts supplier in Florida provided the wrong parts for the Stonehenge IIs, he sent the Stonehenge III parts instead. BUT, he got the right parts on Saturday and he's got the speakers almost put back together.

Then, he's going to break them in for a few hours, 5 - 10 and then we're going to bring everything over here on Saturday and set everthing up and put my new/old Arcam CD player in the mix and see how it all comes together.

So, I haven't heard any of this before paying for it but the total out of pocket for everything is under $1000 so I don't see how I could go wrong since I can sell everything and get my money out of it or make money, if by chance it doesn't sound as good as I think it will.

So, I'm not excited or anything. I'll report when there's more to report. NO REALLY, I'M EXCITED, yeah tube envy!!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6901
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:39 am:

ADS was considered a very good speaker line back in the day. They enjoyed recommended product status in many of their speakers. I never sold the line, just against them. There was a tie in with Braun as to who would get what products and what naming rights when ADS ceased the distribution of the Braun products under the ADS badge. This finally sunk ADS since Braun had more financial power to bring to the table. The same speakers were rebadged and sold in North America as Braun for several years and eventually left the US market for greener pastures.

While not exclusive to the ADS/Braun line, the speakers sported dome midrange drivers which was quite unusual at the time. Their first claim to fame was during the period when mini monitors were popular and they produced an aluminum enclosure for a very small speaker that produced substantial bass response for the package size. The parts and construction quality were very good for the time as you can tell from the basket on the woofer and the air core inductors in the Xo. There are still plenty of ADS users who either have their speakers or regret parting with their speakers.

What are you doing to that pair?

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 16
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 02:55 pm:

After two months with the Jolida 707, I can say without hesitation that I like it (a lot). With the Musical Fidelity CD player and tube buffer (and even without the tube buffer) and the Tannoys, I believe that I am ready to kick back for another twenty years or so (that’s how long I had the MA6100/ Tannoy combination). I hear a lot of sound/ a lot of detail and a lot of warmth (no edginess – I hear that now when I listen to the 6100). On most recordings (even mono), it often seems like I’m in the studio (or on a small stage) with the musicians. (I need to listen to more orchestra music, though.)
I connected the Ling two-ways to the Jolida last night.
(The Lings have done two weeks in our HT system and have performed wonderfully: our PBS station ran a Springsteen documentary (ca. 1975) last week and it sounded fantastic; Lennon in Toronto (1969) and the Canadian Express (1970) DVDs also sound impressive.)
Back to the Lings and the Jolida: it took me a while to set them up in the “sound room,” but when I located the correct placement I smiled.
There is not as much sound as the Tannoys (but they are 15 inches in diameter, too); what there is, however, is impressive (way to go, Tim!). It does take more power to drive the Lings, but they produce fine sound, especially vocals and midrange instruments (like resonators, classical guitar, and muted trumpets). I have some solo piano that really sounds remarkable through them, too. Tonight I’ll feed them some jazz and string quartet pieces and see what they do. I will try some large orchestra, too (eventually).
Now, let’s talk tubes. I thought I would treat myself to some new glassware for Christmas – I was thinking about two matched sets of KT66s (for the bottom, without mucking up the midrange and high end too much). Are Sino and Sovetek the only two brands available in this flavor)? Can anyone explain the (subjective) difference in sound between the KT66 and the 6L6 tubes? I am interested in any possible tradeoffs any of you might have noticed (e.g., do I give up high end for more bottom with one particular tube type?).
It’s time for me to go … I have final exams to grade. (happy face with bullet hole in forehead!)

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2687
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:33 pm:

Just a quick response to Jan then I'll get back to the others.

First of all I had to open them to see what they were made of and if
any tweaks or upgrades presented themselves, I was fairly impressed.
I may replace some of the caps and possably look into resistor upgrades. (same values)

I've found quite a bit of info on the company and the men behind it, some of
them have gone on to other company's, including one of the lead designers
is now the newer company Aerial Accoustics. There's a fairly loyal following.

Somehow I've managed "through trades" to get 3 pairs of these L880's spks!
I've also gotten a few smaller pairs plus some spare parts to build a matching
center channel using the same midrange/tweeter/xover and 2 8" ADS drivers.

So I wll be putting 6 of these and the new center into my multichannel setup.
I will also finally remove the rest of the tube amps except the main front and
put my parasound 5 channel amp back in, "maybe keep tube for center" as
like we had talked before the other channels are a little overkill, besides not
being very practical as far as heat and having to many amps to turn on. LOL!

These really are a very nice speaker with a great real wood exterior cabinet.
The only thing that bugs me slightly is they are not mirror image so I may
take a pair that I use for the mains and turn the cabinet upside down to get
the woofer at the top then take the midrange/tweeter out and put then in a
seperate smaller cabinet fixed to the cabinet sitting just above the woofer.

Either that or I may try stacking 2 with the top set upside down while using
2 amps, that way you kinda get mirror image sets. "double advent style"

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6904
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:08 pm:

I don't think I've ever seen anyone describe McIntosh as "edgy".

I am guessing the Jolida requires 6L6 tubes; or have you decided to experiment with different tube types?

I ask because I don't understand, " ... for the bottom, without mucking up the midrange and high end too much." The bottom? What am I missing here? If I'm supposed to be remembering something here, I'm sorry but I don't. Why would you be "mucking up" the mids and highs?

The 6L6 tube is typically referred to as either a beam power tube or as a tetrode. (Ocassionally I've seen it called a pentode, but that is not a correct description of the 6L6 tube type.) The concept of the beam power tube was to create a tube which would be compact in size, produce higher power than a triode and a lower distortion product than a pentode. By putting "beam power vacuum tube" into a search engine, you should get several articles describing how this was accomplished.

While vacuum tubes are inherently the most linear amplification device available, the 6L6 tube, and its variants, have a "kink" in the upper harmonic structure. The KT-66 was a European design that eliminated the "kink". Therefore the designation "Kinkless Tetrode".

Trying to explain the difference in sound quality between all 6L6's and all KT-66's is like describing the difference between all ribbon tweeters and all isodynamic tweeters. You can make broad statements that can be contradicted by any particular variety of tube. In general, the KT-66 will be a slightly more neutral tube though that is very dependent upon the circuit the tube is placed in. The "kink" in a 6L6 is in the upper harmonics and not generally audible with most music material. So do not let that dissuade you from looking at 6L6 designs also. If the choice is between an excellent 6L6 and a less well done KT-66, I'd easily take the 6L6 (and have on many ocassions).

The 6L6, as you have discovered, is the more popular tube type. Lots of guitar amplifiers still use 6L6 tubes because of their "typical" sound. While not much used in consumer audio, the 6L6 has dedicated followers who believe it to be the ideal tube which combines the sweetness of the best EL34's with the punch of the best 6550's. Top this off with lower distortion (mostly even order harmonics and low I.M. distortion) than either of those tubes and the 6L6 is a potent package.

If you are reading about tubes which are patterned after the "classic" RCA or Slyvania designs, you will find a tube with a bit of emphasis on the deep bass and a not overbearing or thin treble. Newer tube designs have been produced for the guitar amplifier market and will probably not have the bottom end response of the best 6L6 designs. (Though, as I said, that is a very broad statement that can be proven false in several cases.) The Golden Dragon KT-66 was one of the best tubes I've heard in my system. While not a totally new design, it was patterned after the Gold Lions from the 1960's, it was not a completely traditional design either.

I've used tubes long enough, and heard enough solid state, that I consider tubes to be neutral and transistors to be wrong in most cases. Therefore, the idea of "giving up" high end is not anything I consider with tubes. To me there is no "tube sound". There is sound that is wrong, but not necessarily due to the use of tubes.

Ideally you should be looking for a neutral sound unless you are intentionally adding colorations to the sound. In this respect, I consider the 6L6 to be an excellent tube and the KT-66 (in it's best examples) slightly better if the tube is inherently better. I've had Chinese KT-66's which couldn't hold a candle to a good 6L6. However the two best output tubes I've had in my Mac MC-240 amplifiers have both been KT-66's. I'm currently running Svetlana's and I think the sound is terrific. Stay away, however, from the Sovtek 5881's. They are a poor sub for the 6L6 and, in my experience, have a short lifespan.

The best advice on trying new tubes is to buy from someone who will work with you and give you specific information as available. Remember the tube is only a portion of the gain/output circuit and will respond differently to different circuit topology, transformer types and bias voltage/current.

One note to mention that is critically important, make certain the bias voltage for your amp is in line with the maximum voltage allowed for the tube you want to use. Never push the tube's bias voltage or current or you will shorten the life of the tube and possibly cause damage to the amplifier. If your amplifier has adjustable bias, you can alter the sound of the tube slightly by adjusting the bias around the center voltage.

There is no way someone can tell you what a particular tube sounds like in any given amplifier unless they have heard that combination. General descriptions can help you choose what tube you should try. However, only buy tubes from a shop which will allow a sideways swap should the tube you pick not be to your liking. That is unless you are very certain what you have chosen is the tube sound you want to hear. I recommend the Svetlana tubes as a very good choice. Buy a matched quad set.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2688
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 02:12 am:

As usual well said JAN in tubeville! And I would just reiterate something
that he's said and that is there are general charicteristics about tubes but
they do not hold true in every circumstance or every curcuit let alone have
the same reaction to every system or every speaker, so your milage may vary!

I still have yet to try a kt-66 just because I don't have the cash for good ones.
"about the only tube tube I don't have"

----------------------------------------

Dakulis I'm sure that combo will sound wonderful, if I was you I'd be going crazy
waiting for all this to get together, so do fill us in when you get it together.

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 667
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 03:17 am:

Kegger,

Good to hear from you. I owe you thanks on your recommendation on the RCA 12AX7 tubes. I was able to find a pair of NOS at a local shop that specializes in vintage gear. They are worlds better than the EH and Sylvanias I've tried.

Hope all is well.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2690
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 04:58 am:

2C SUPP!

Good to hear there workin out.

Hope all is well with you to sir!

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 17
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 08:51 am:

Jan:
I used “edgy” to describe the 6100 in comparison to the jolida which sounds “warm” too me (my wife described it as “lush,” but it doesn’t drink too much). (Words are strange creatures.) I suspect I have been seduced by the joldia’s sound.
Many thanks for your opinion of the 6L6s. I am learning.
I also appreciate the idea of “neutral sound.” That phrase reminds me of my reaction to the Lings when I heard them with the jolida: I thought that a veil had been lifted off the music and the sound opened up. I do not remember if the veil metaphor comes from Hawthorne or a review of Tim’s speakers that I read, but it describes my experience.

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 18
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 09:19 am:

I am trying to learn a new (audio) vocabulary and my word choices are not always correct/ clear in meaning (as you all may have noticed). I am trying to correct this problem.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6906
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:05 am:

Yep, that veil thing originated with "The Scarlet Letter".

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3828
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 02:38 pm:

Hi, Kegger! Good to read your posts again. Old dogs seems to have come full circle.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2691
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 04:33 am:

Yes John thanks for the welcome, sorry to not have gotten back with you.

You know how things go! Take care sir!

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 741
Registered: May-05

Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 03:47 pm:

Still waiting on the ALs to be reconed but I am enjoying the education on tubes so keep it up all. Thanks, Dave.

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3830
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 05:54 pm:

Take care, Kegger!

I am slow to respond partly because I am getting e-mail notifications many days after the posts. It could be a full mail-box. Also I have less time these days. But I still read with interest.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2692
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 01:46 am:

It's not you John it's the site, I don't recieve the emails till later also.

Bronze Member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 19
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 11:51 am:

A joyous noel to you all.
Peace.

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 757
Registered: May-05

Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 02:17 pm:

RAC, Kegger, John A, Jan and Company,

Likewise, a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and best wishes for each of you and your families. From the great white northwest. Dave