Archive through October 19, 2005

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 869
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 03:17 pm:

What does that mean?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4894
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 03:54 pm:

It means I've been having problems with the forum log in.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3587
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 05:47 am:

j.c. - Way back on the is thread, people looked for word to describe the effect of switching to tube amplification. I too am at a loss for words. I think it was Rick himself who suggested "fluid" or "liquid" which I personally thought was a good shot.

When you are settled in, if it is simple, go back to solid state for a few days. See how it sounds. There are words people seem to agree on for that....

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 870
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 01:37 pm:

Unfortunately it is not easy for me to compare unless I hook up the Denon to the Totems. I think that would be unfair though because the NAD (sold to my dad) outshined the Denon considerably. I guess wide open airy would be a good start to describe the tube. It's kinda funny Jan, you asked about the beginning and ending of notes changed with tubes and when I let my inlaws hear it last nigh , the first thing one of them said was how the notes seems to come in and out so much better. I tried to get more out of him so I might be able to share on here , but he couldn't really find more words. I got the jist of it and am starting to understand what you were saying about the emerging and departure of single notes played on instruments. What I find cool is the fact that at very low levels, the tubes still bring full bodied sound to the table. Amazing.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 872
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 01:45 pm:

Here is a pic if anyone's interested.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/3/153349.jpg

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 874
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 02:00 pm:

And after getting the 4 ohm taps working, it did sound better on the 8's.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 878
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 04:49 pm:

Sorry I though I put the pic here, here it is:

Upload

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 879
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 05:00 pm:

What is tube rolling?
how do you acomplish it?
what are the pros/cons?

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1244
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 08:54 pm:

Joseph,

I have a Jolida. If you want to send me a private email, I will help you cut through the chase.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 886
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:48 am:

Do you guys Bias you own amps??

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2577
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 12:01 pm:

Yes!

Most amps have the adjustment and the manual should run you through it.
It should be checked say twice a year once you've determined it is stable.

Also anytime an output tube is changed it should be rebiased.

If you want find out more about tube rolling without us stating it all over again
you should take some time and read through this thread, there is a wealth of info!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4929
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:02 pm:

The McIntosh amps I use have "fixed bias" and require no adjustment. I check it when I change output tubes but have never had to make an adjustment. Checking requires taking off the bottom plate of the amplifier. To alter the bias setting on a fixed bias amp would require soldering in new bias resistors.

You should be aware that all tube amps are not equal in their bias adjustment range. When you change output tubes you should know the "average" bias setting your amp prefers. Looking at tubes to purchase find tubes that have operational characteristics that fall within that range. If you put in an output tube that requires higher bias voltage/current than your amp allows, you'll probably be disappointed in the final sound of the amp. If you run tubes too close to, or beyond, their bias limits, you will drastically change the life span of the tubes. Sometimes "DRASTICALLY"!

There is, of course, no need to change bias if you change an input, driver or rectifier tube.

http://www.webace.com.au/~electron/tubes/screens.htm

http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=fixed%20bias%20McIntosh%20vacuum%20tube%20a mplifiers

On most amplifiers with adjustable bias, the operation is simple enough to allow the owner to do what needs to be done on a "maintenance" sort of schedule as Kegger suggests. After warming up the amp to settle the bias, it is usually suggested you check for any drift on a more frequent basis if the amplifier has included a front panel meter and switching for checking individual tubes. This could catch a problem with a bias resistor before it turns into a more expensive repair.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 887
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:39 pm:

My amp has user bias adjustment on the top of the amp and was wondering if this :https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/biasrite/br_page.htm looks like a good idea and also would the VI option be worth investing in?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4934
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 02:23 pm:

I'll let Kegger weigh in also but all you need is a multi purpose multi meter from Radio Shack or a hardware/electronics supply house for $10-15.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2578
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:12 pm:

I have to agree with Jan that other stuff looks a little gimicky and your adding something
to the amp that you don't know what it might do to the sound or create some unforseen
problem. I would just stick to a standard meter for about $30 max. If you want to spend
more on a better meter I certainly would not knock anyone doing that.

A nice meter that also has the HFE test for both pnp and npn transistors is pretty handy.

Look for one that has multiple ohm and voltage settings that go nice and low in
the millivolts and resistance so get nice accurate readings on low measurements.
Can be a very handy tool for many applications.

I personally have 3 meters 1 cheep one and 2 better ones "just in case" and the one I
like best is a beckman industrial DM27xL just seems right to me with how it does what it does!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 888
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:19 pm:

I was confused guys. I just got the manual faxed to me from Jolida and realize the little connector type thingy at the back of the amp is for the multimeter prongs . I have just completed the initial setting and made it 50.4-50.6 millivolts across the board. Is that sufficient? Manual says anywhere inbetween 45-55mv.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2579
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:54 pm:

Sounds about right to me!

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2580
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:56 pm:

Just curious what were they running at?

In other words did you have to make much of an adjustment?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 895
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 05:29 pm:

I started from scratch(went all the way counter clockwise) so i don't know. but it did look a little different (the screw position) after I reset them.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4937
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 05:46 pm:

If the amp is fully broken in, I would allow it to run for several hours to really stabilize the temps in the X-formers and then do some adjustments and listening. Every tube and every circuit have a best point for every system. Just as with the adjustments to be made on a turntable or tweaking speaker placement, adjusting the bias on a tube amp can affect the perceived sound quality. Only you can decide what you hear and what suits your system tastes.

Run the tubes down in bias and the amp will run slightly cooler. So will the sound. The amp won't produce quite as much power but it also won't produce as much distortion component. Run the amp hotter with more bias and you push the point where the tubes cross over from = to - waveform just a bit further. The amp runs a little closer to Class A operation at slighly higher wattages. The amp will probably sound somewhat different at the two extremes of bias settings. You can always return it to the mid point if you hear no diffference. On the other hand, running the tubes at the lowest bias voltage possible to get good sound will, somewhat, extend the tubes useful lifespan.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4938
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 05:47 pm:

Tube rolloing and bias setting. Welcome to the world of tube neurosis.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 896
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 06:13 pm:

lol it is the ultimate for an obsessive compulsive.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2581
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 07:37 pm:

You talkin about me? LOL!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 898
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 08:12 pm:

Hey Jan, you into espresso??

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4942
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 08:52 pm:

I'm Italian; of course.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 900
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 09:43 pm:

I got a Breville espresso maker a couple of months back and it was a huge jump from the cheapy boiler krups I had. The whole espresso thing seems to compare to the hifi world. You can spend thousands on an espresso machine to get the "perfect" brew and crema. Anyway, I was wondering if you had made the jump to something a little better in quality and did you notice a big diff?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 903
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 10:03 pm:

Gonna start rolling my a$s of soon with some Sovtek 12AX7LPS on the pre side to see what happens. Gotta love the endless possiblities with tubes.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4949
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:07 pm:

j.c. - Re: espresso

Throw away the junk that does the brewing in a machine. Do espresso the way Italians do espresso. Either buy a $1,200 espresso machinatta or a $15 espresso pot. I, of course, use the pot. The machinatta is only for making dozens of cups of cafe at a time. I have several pots that make from one to six cups and a mocha pot also. It is placed on the stove and the water is steamed through the grounds. I gave my nephew one of these pots to replace what he was using from some automatic thing and he loves it. Bialetti Brikka is the best known of the pots but the one I use daily is the la Signora caffettiera. Much better espresso than any espresso maker I've tried.

http://www.bialettiusa.com/bialetti/products.html

As any Italian will tell you though, it is the coffee that makes the difference once you have the right pot.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2591
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 11:44 am:

Hey Jan picked up 3 dynaco fm-3 tuners a while back for a good price and finally got
around to checking them out well at least the best looking candidate.

Brought er up on the variac and she hummed and crackled but we left er running
to try and clear out the cobwebs. It did get a little better and got some reception
but when moved or bumped still crackled. So I began to check some solder traces and
found the usual of someone replacing the can cap with the twists that hold them in.
People just don't solder them to the chassis and it's a big source of hum. Then I found
a crack in the edge of one board so resoldered the traces. After all that it LIVES!

I really like the tone of this unit, very pleasent to listen to.

Havn't looked at the other 2 yet, one has an obvious problem of the tuner
dial melted and being u shaped so it won't turn. These were suppose to be 2 fm-3's
and 1 fm-1 but as it turns out all 3 are fm-3's, allright!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4963
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:08 pm:

Like most Dyna gear, the FM-3's were decent performers for the money spent. Have you had a tube tuner in your system before?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 906
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

"Gonna start rolling my a$s of soon with some Sovtek 12AX7LPS on the pre side to see what happens. Gotta love the endless possiblities with tubes."

Scratch that, gonna try some JJ's instead

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 912
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:37 pm:

You guys have to try Eric Bibb on tubes whoa! what a great sound.

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1245
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:44 pm:

Ok, easy.....slow down. Don't forget to breathe.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2597
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 05:13 pm:

Hope things are goin good there RICK!

Jan no I have not had a tube tuner, should be picking up my sherwood today that
was sent out to be aligned and gone through by the guy I'm getting it from.

I traded a PC for it and the unit was sent to another guy I know who has a buisiness
of restoring and aligning tuners and supposably the guy does good work and he really
likes this tuner. For what that is worth. I should know more by tommorrow.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 928
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 07:09 pm:

Hey guys, does it take some time for the pre amp tubes to break in?

Hooked up some JJ TESLA 12ax7wa tubes and while the bottom end is sweet, the mids seem to break up easier than what I had in there (don't know what brand was in there but I think they are Chinese, so then cannot be better). Thoughts?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5010
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:22 pm:

Microphonics!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 932
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:26 pm:

look it up huh?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 933
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:35 pm:

will it change , or do I have a bum set. The others didn't break up like this.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2608
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:39 pm:

joseph coulson in my experience the tesla's do have decent bass and mids but
the high's aren't that great.

If you go back through this thread both jan and I have given our thoughts on tubes.

Just a quick feneral rule of thumb from ME is that output tubes don't make
as much of a difference as input tubes and that the newer output tubes are pretty good.
But for the most part I don't like the new input tubes being made today.

So if you want a better sounding tube I suggest you get some older tubes.
Telefunken and bugle boy are some of the best all around tubes whjile the mullards are
great bass and midrange but all of them are pretty expensive so I usually suggest
looking for some RCA's as I feel they are the best bang for the buck and have a
pretty good all around tone!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 936
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:56 pm:

I think I got scared all of a sudden , but I really think it may not have helped that the first cd I threw in was "heavier things" by John Mayer. As nice and clear as this cd is, it is recorded very high and the one song that caught my attn. has a heck of alot going on. I will look for some RCA's though Keg, thanks. It does sound better than the Chinese ones though, I put some Ottmar in and all is well in Jolida land.

Do you guys know where I could get some kind of decent wood holder for the tubes I am going to acquire?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 937
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:01 pm:

Jan I am sorry for bringing up that old post of Tawauns. He just really aggravates me with all of the inconsistency he throws around. It won't happen again.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5014
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:24 pm:

Okey dokey.

I don't know what sort of wood holder you're looking for.

All tubes are microphonic to some extent. How they react in a ciruit is a function the the tube, the amplifer, the support system and the music. If things are clean(er) with the Ottmar, then the problem has at least something to do with microphonics. Give a quick check for microphonics by placing the volume at a medium low setting with no active input selected (i.e., no music playing). Tap the glass envelope of the tubes with the eraser end of a pencil. The more microphonic tubes will show themself. If this is the problem, you can try to isolate the amplifier farther away from the speakers or switch to less microphonic tubes. Catch 22 is the finer elements of the tube that make it sound good also make it microphonic. Get one, get the other.

A quick, cheap simple fix is to get a few tennis or raquet balls and cut them in half. Use these as supports for your amplifier. They're not $300 roller balls, but cost effectiveness scores very high.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 938
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:17 pm:

Well, it's not the tubes. Didn't really hear anything when tapped. Do tubes go through the usual break in process? maybe I cranked them too soon out of the box?

Maybe you guys use something to keep the tubes in for easy access, without having to rebox and stack the original cardboard boxes for storage?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5022
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:48 am:

Tubes have to be nice and warm before they sound their best.

Since I don't do too much tube rolling any longer, maybe Kegger has an idea for you. I put my unused tubes in their boxes in the closet.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2613
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:53 am:

Well this may sound weird but I use a couple of fishing tackle boxes.

As they have ample storage in the bottom for boxed stuff plus individual trays
for tubes I like to test or just rotate. Plus I have an old tube caddie full.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 939
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:41 am:

perfect

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5032
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 03:20 pm:

One of the problems I've run into with new tubes is the market for vacuum tubes is still dominated by the musical instrument business. This is especially true in the more popular tube numbers where EL34's, 6L6's, 12AX7's and so forth are used in guitar amplifiers. What the consumer audio market wants from a tube is very different from what the musician wants. Where a consumer will dispose of a tube as distortions rise and the tube is considered worn out, the musician will consider that same tube just getting broken in. The way a tube distorts when overdriven is a consideration for the musician they will seek out. That a tube distorts at all is unpleasant for the "audiophile" to consider.

The first set of replacement tubes I purchased back in the early 1980's were from Groove Tube. Their business was predominantly geared to musicicans as the home audio market hadn't swung back to tubes at all from the 1970's. The output tubes I purchased were graded "1" through "10" to indicate their "softness" or "hardness" which indicated how prone to break up the tube was as it reached its limits. The softer the tube the "sweeter" the distortion product and the longer it took to tip into distortion. The harder the tube, the more hard edged distortion the tube produced and, like a transistor amplifier, the sooner it went into clipping. The closer the tube grading got to 10, the more it supposedly duplicated the sound of a solid state amplifier.

When shopping for tubes, whether input, driver, rectifier or output tubes, it is best to inquire what the characteristics of the tubes are before you pay your money. A simple question as to where will the tube work best could be important.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5044
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 12:11 pm:

I will paste this here from another thread since it is relevant to this thread also:

As long as you are staying with the same type of tube (12AX7 to 12AX7) you can replace any rectifier, input or driver tube without any adjustment to the amplifier, pre amplifier, tuner, CD, etc. The operational characteristics for small signal triodes are established and do not vary enough from manufacturer to manufacturer. You will, however, find a noticeable difference in sound quality among different manufacturer's tubes and even within a group of similar tubes. One 12AX7, while designed to the same overall specs as every other 12AX7 may be designated for low noise, low microphonics, military use or other qualities. You will find letter or number dsignations behind the 12AX7 type to differentiate these special purpose tubes. 12AX7 is a designation given to a tube manufactured in the US or meant for use in the US. Other countries will make similar tubes that swap out with the 12AX7 but have different letter/number designations. (http://www.hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/tubecode.html) In small signal tubes, these can be interchanged with no problems (typically).

When you get to large signal output tubes, you need to be more careful about what goes where. While you can generally swap a KT88 for a 6550, all output tubes will run at different bias levels. Bias can be thought of as the voltage or current through one section of the tube's elements that attracts the oppositely polarized electrons to flow from another element thus affecting gain. Read the last week's worth of entries in Tube Talk for more on bias.

The subject of tubes covers way too much territory to give definitive answers too many times. Read up a bit on tubes and you'll get a better idea of what to expect.

http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
http://www.vintagelectron.com/
http://www.lh-electric.4t.com/tutorials.htm
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14178/
http://www.vacuumtube.com/tubes.htm
http://hometheater.about.com/od/vacuumtubeaudio/
http://www.tubedepot.com/
http://www.tubedepot.com/whisbipo.html
http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/

If you cannot find the information you desire somewhere on the world tube depot site, it probably isn't there to be found.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 944
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 04:10 pm:

Wealth of info as always Jan , thank you.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5086
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:10 pm:

j.c. - Consider yourself a rich man:

Tube (Valve) Amplifier Manufacturers
Supratech Triode (beautiful SET amps from Australia)
Wavelength Audio (SET amplifiers)
Moondog Audio (SET amplifiers and horn speakers, Ron Welborne)
Aprilsound (SET amplifiers)
Bottlehead (parallel feed amplifiers)
David Berning (zero output transformer ZOTL triode amps including the new incredible microZOTL)
Decware Zen tube amp
Moth Audio (SET amplifiers, high efficiency speakers)
Vacuum State Electronics (Allen Wright) high end single ended and balanced kits, cables, and more
SAS Audio Labs
Tube (Valve) Amplifier Design
The Joelist (Sound Practices mailing list) website by Tim Reese
Joelist file server
Steve Bench's page (tube amp designer and experimenter extraordinaire, lots of information)
Duncan's Amp Pages (lots of info including tube database)
Bob Danielak's Darling amplifiers using 1626 output tube
Audio Amateur (Glass Audio magazine, Audio Electronics magazine)
Svetlana tubes and circuits
Tube CAD Journal, online tube design e-zine
Software for Tube Audio
Glass-Ware tube audio design software including Free Curves software
Duncan's Amps software including the amazing Power Supply designer ! (free)

http://melhuish.org/audio/links.html

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 956
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:11 pm:

T U B E S !

diablo

Silver Member

Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 206
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:20 pm:

jc
Since you are originally from England, shouldn't that be
V A L V E S ! ??
:-)

Regards,
diablo

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3643
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 11:33 pm:

diablo,

I told 'em "thermionic valve" made sense, and "vacuum tube" did not, imho, early on this thread. But let us not fight, again, a war of words! "Tubes" is now international English, we have to agree.

Get your Quad II monoblocs running, and we can start to take sides on Quad vs McIntosh. What a pointless civil war that would be (smiley).

diablo

Silver Member

Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 207
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:47 am:

Surely, a 'vacuum tube' is one of those bendy things that get attached to a Hoover? ... oh, never mind.

I've been doing some more investigations and a little cable making. Will be seeing if the monoblock which did work, still does. Maybe tomorrow. This is to assess whether or not I like the sound before going any further.

Been looking at prices of Quad IIs on Ebay and elsewhere. Seems like �200 to �300 each for reasonably decent ones on Ebay. Same for some which seem fairly poor. It tends to be �500 from specialist dealers. They are not as cheap as I thought, but may be still be worthwhile - a lot cheaper than the new versions.

Their seems to be a fair amount of interest in them from all over the world, mainly Japan. I suppose that isn't too surprising - they like their valve stuff over there.

I might put up a web page, with details of what I do, if I decide to go on with the project. Not for any altruistic motive of helping others - I'm not nearly nice enough to do that - it will help to force myself to document what I'm doing for my own future reference. :-)

Regards,
diablo

p.s. McIntosh are rubbish!!!

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3647
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 01:09 am:

Yeah, but they keep the rain out.

"....one of those bendy things that get attached to a Hoover? "

That's what I said!

Or "vacuum cleaner", as they are more correctly described....

Yes, keep up the good work!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5091
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:22 am:

diablo - Send me all your rubbish.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 958
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 07:40 am:

Actually, they shouldn't be called vacuum anything. 'Cause they don't suck!
Jan, sometimes I think your a flash git and other times I think you've just gone and joined the barmey army!

vince mirabelli

New member

Username: Vm8444

Post Number: 1
Registered: Aug-05

Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 01:23 am:

hi there,,I just recieved my primaluna one today,,anybody try tube rolling with this amp,,I heard this amp with my maggies 1.6 in the store and I was sold,, I use to run a 25 watt audio innovations tube amp,,and that was pretty loud for me ,,but I wanted a little more,, so taz from a previous post no worries here ,,the prima one at 35 watts will drive the mmg's really well..I
KNOW BECUSE i TRIED ,,to all you naysayers out there na na na na na

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 969
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:15 pm:

Wow, what an insightful post vince.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2629
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 01:35 am:

For anyone interested, I picked up a pair of unique speakers today.
Yah I know realistic speakers must be garb right, well that's what I figured
but there design and the price made me grab em ($3 for the pair used of'course)

Well they are a larger then normal 2-way (8" woof 3" tweet) with a 10"
passive radiator and they are also an attempt at being time aligned as the
top portion of the cabinet where the tweeter is mounted is set back about 2".

After taking them apart to inspect, a very intersting xover reveals it'self, the
woofer is run full range (no xover) and all the tweet has is 1 cap! Now if that
isn't a pretty minumal xover then I don't know what is. After checking them
out on the garage setup I see why they have no xover on the woofer as there
is no highs comming from that unit and the mids that are there sound great.
My guess is the 8" driver rolls off naturaly to a point then the tweet takes over.

From the limited testing so far this speaker system has some potential and I
am curious to try these on the 300B with some jazz and acoustical music
(as I do not see them being a loud/big rock speaker).

The extremely limited info I have found for these speakers so far (Optimus-40)
Power Input: 75 Watts Max
Frequency Response: 40 Hz to 20,000 Hz
Sensitivity: 89 dB @ 1 W/m

Wish I could get a phase and impedance chart for them to really try and determine if
weather they fit the mold of a "tube friendly speaker" but the simple xover and decent
sensitivity have me intrigued though, keep yu posted.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 1026
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 09:18 pm:

Will give you guys a report on the difference between Sovtek 6550 and Electro Harmonix KT88's when I get them tomorrow. The Sov's are decent but seem to push the midrange to uncomfortable levels when the amp is pushed. Looking forward to seeing how the E H's work.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2659
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 09:37 pm:

joseph your a regular tubaholic. I like it!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5310
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:16 pm:

j.c. - I appreciate the information and your enthusiasm; but you know the sound of a tube is the sound of that tube within that amplifier's circuit; right?

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3729
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 01:13 am:

vince,

Going back a few posts, "Two Cents" did some tube replacements with a Prologue Two, I think. Glad your Prologue One works with MG 1.6. "Art", on another thread maintains Magnepan speakers need lots of power. I find the 40W of the PL2 is more than adequate for my speakers which notionally require 50W minimum. I understand there are those who prefer the EL34 output of the PL1, and the power rating difference between the two amps is a mere 5 W.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 1031
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 07:44 am:

I do Jan, and I see no other way to find out whether that sound is different besides buying up all the tubes in the known universe and trying them. (puts little finger to side of lip like Dr. Evil)

P.S. Jan I already have the Sovteks, that's why I made that call.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 1056
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:57 pm:

I love the smoothness of these new E H KT88's vs. the Sovteks. They seem to be more consistent throughout the volume range than the Sov's. And I realized that it was not the 12ax7's that were breaking up at high levels. All the 12ax7's I have accumulated over the past couple of weeks sound really good. The NOS ones seem to have a slight edge with the Electro hr's coming in a close second. All in all, wonderful sound. And hey, how can you beat $600 for the amp!

Andy Summers

Gold Member

Username: Thx_3417

Post Number: 1187
Registered: May-05

Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:17 am:

-CRYBABY-

Bed-time.....

Rock-a-bye baby, in the tree top
When the wind blows, the cradle will rock
When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall
And down will come baby, cradle and all

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5362
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:37 am:

Hey, Ashley & j.c. - Find a thread of your own. This crap is getting old.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 1058
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:58 pm:

Jan , I have not ventured outside of the specific threads with this idiot, I cannot help it if he wants to ruin every thread.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 1060
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 01:03 pm:

Anyway, I think I have changed my mind on the pre tubes, even though the Electo's do not have the lower end extension that the NOS USA ones do, I prefer the sound and depth (do not know how to describe what I am hearing short of calling it depth.

Anonymous

Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 09:07 am:

Thanks for a most interesting thread, Rick. You are missed.

http://hometheater.about.com/od/vacuumtubeaudio/a/vacuumtubeaudio.htm?nl=1

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5859
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 08:38 pm:

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 552
Registered: May-05

Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 08:50 pm:

It appears that this thread may be dying. But, speaking of truths, here's one I just discovered.

Never forget who your friends are. As many of you know, I'm heading off to SLC for several reasons, however, included in the trip is the opportunity to go into a real audio store and listen to real audio equipment. (You guys know that I've proclaimed Spokane as the audio desert.)

Anyway, I called a long lost buddy today that I had mentioned before. He's an electronic wiz and he buys old tube amps, fixes them up and sells them all over, usually to Asia. (Yes Jan, he has a number of Macs in the house, a couple of old Fisher models and some old H&K.)

I told him about my difficulty with the whole HT and combined music system. (Now, I know you guys have never heard this before. LOL. He said, "Don't spend any money in SLC on that crap. You'll never be able to get decent music out of a multi-channel amp and pre/pro.")

Then, I told him the story of my old Luxman tube amp and AL Stonehenge IIs. He said, "can't do anything about the Luxman you tossed, even though you weren't too bright on that one, but I repair ALs, Klipschorns and EVs all the time."

He told me to bring 'em over, he'll buy the parts and do the repair word for nada and I have to do is reimburse him for the parts.

Then, it gets better. He says that after he fixes the ALs up, he'll pair them up with one of his tube amps and if I like what I hear, he'll set me up very reasonably and I won't be spending a bunch of money. (Of course, he says I still have to fight the WAF over placement of the humungous speakers and 2 channel system somewhere in the house.) And, he says if I'm not happy with the end result, I don't have to buy the amp, he'll buy the speakers off me at a reasonable price and sell 'em for more than enough to make back his labor and he'll sell the amp to someone else at a huge profit.

Truth=honesty, no? PRETTY COOL and I'll report back if this goes even half that well.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5873
Registered: May-04

Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 09:30 pm:

Good luck, Dak.

Timn8ter

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 548
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 09:58 pm:

Super duper!

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3775
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 01:27 pm:

Yep. Good luck! "SLC" equals "Salt Lake City"....? "AL"..?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5890
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 01:54 pm:

AL = big box!

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 553
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 04:38 pm:

AL = Altec Lansing, Stonehenge IIs. These puppies aren't as big as Peter's Klipschs but they're pretty honkin' big, just about 2/3s the width of the AL Studio Standards, about 40" x 24" x 24" and probably 60-75 lbs. a piece.

They come in solid oak cabinets, have 12" woofers and a mid and a tweeter but no horns, which the Studio Standards had. Anyway, in their day, they sounded very good.

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 554
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 04:46 pm:

BTW Jan, John A, JC, Diablo and others,

WOW, incredible information on this thread. If I head down this road, I'll need some serious additional education on tubes, it's been a long time since I was there. But, I'll read first and ask later, so as not to annoy too much. Thanks again all, Dave

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5892
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 05:26 pm:

A lot of what you need to know has been covered on this thread. Any questions you have, just ask. And, of course, tubes sound good with newer, smaller speakers also.

R A Clack

New member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 6
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

Jan, Kegger, and Rick (alphabetical order):
After months of reading and re-reading "old dogs" and "tube talk," doing research, and listening to amplifiers and a lot of music, I ordered my new integrated -- a Jolida 707 (my MA6100 will soon become part of our A/V unit). I have you three (specifically) to thank -- for advice, cautions, and anxiety (joking). Since Jolida seems to be a bit "backed up," it will probably be two weeks before the unit arrives. I'll let you all know what happens.
I have learned a lot from all who have contributed to this thread.
Thanks Pardoners!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5904
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 01:27 pm:

That's why we hand out silver bullets, RAC. What do you teach?

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3776
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 03:38 pm:

Cracking thread, chaps.

R A Clack

New member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 7
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:18 am:

"What do you teach?"
Students... but occasionally a small rodent wanders into the classroom (sorry, it's my standard response).
I teach college composition, world mythology, and American literature (1492-1980's).

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5952
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 12:45 pm:

So whatever happened to J.D. Salinger?

Rantz

Unregistered guest

Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:23 pm:

Tube nuts look here:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/165993.html

RAC

New member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 8
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 07:38 am:

"So whatever happened to J.D. Salinger?"
I believe he is preparing for a poker game with Ginsberg, Kesey, Kerouac, and Thompson.

"Eventually, everyone has to cash in his chips."
--I do not know who said it, but it seems about right.

RAC

New member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 9
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:36 am:

Greetings from Dover!
The J707 arrived last Friday. I have been listening to it quite as bit. When I first connected it up and began listening I was disappointed � my bass had disappeared. So I thought, well, this is not what I heard in the shops I visited, but maybe my Tannoy speakers have something to do with the problem. The bass sounded muted and way way back in the soundstage. I tried switching speaker taps from 8 to 4 ohms. Some bass appeared, but not enough (or as much as I heard at the shops or with my MA6100). I switched back to 8 ohm and attempted to live with the sound. The tubes seemed to opened up while I was listening to Bonnie Raitt (a nice experience, even with muted bass even at an elevated volume).
I was one unhappy camper until Wednesday morning when it occurred to me to disconnect the tube buffer (xboxv3) I was running between the cd player (xray) and the 707. Once I connected the cd player directly into the 707 (Wednesday afternoon) I smiled � the bass had returned (though the highs and midrange are not as �warm� as with the buffer connected). As far as I can tell, the tube buffer works well with a solid state amplifier (like the MA6100) � it warms up the music. With a tube unit (like the 707) the buffer seems to add a �veil� (or filter) to the music � I almost enjoyed the highs and the midrange because the sound was so different, but oh did I miss the bass on my reference cds (Mitchell�s Don Juan�s Reckless Daughter � bass by Jaco � and Ray Hubbard�s Growl). In fact, I discovered that I was giving myself a headache as I listened for the bass and not the music.
Of course another explanation is that I am imagining all of these differences.
Tonight I will try the 4 ohm taps again (this time without the buffer).
And now a question (from a newbie): If tubes are used in both preamp and amp (or in an integrated amp), why should tubes be used in a tuner, cd player, or phono preamp? The �fast� answer is that �it sounds good to the listener,� but aside from that response, what are the �electronic� benefits? Let me ask the question another way � if there are tubes in the preamp (for a nice warm and open sound), what sonic benefits are there to using tubes in the other devices?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6135
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 03:55 pm:

Ideally tubes should not sound like "tubes". That some manufacturers promote their products as ways to introduce "tube sound" into your system is a disappointment to those of us who enjoy the musical values of tubes and are not looking to add "warmth" or remove "CD sound" from our systems. However, if that is the sort of product that is introduced into the system, a little can go a long way. Too much can make the system just as unlistenable as too much of any one quality in an audio system.

Let the system work for a few days and then you might want to consider tweaking your system around the sound of the new amplifier. I don't recommend being obssesive about the affair but tube porducts can be tailored to your tastes with the use of different tubes.

The advantage to using tubes, particularly in a tuner, would be the overall linearity of a tube used as a gain device or a tuning device. One of the most well respected tuners of the last half century is still the tube based Marantz 10B. The tube based McIntosh and Fisher tuners are sought after at high prices as are many other classic tube based designs. The simplicity of tube based circuits generally is a good enough reason to consider tubes against the more complex solid state devices.

Everything has its place in audio and everything has trade offs which means there is no right or wrong when judged against how the device is used. Transistors have their place and if tubes are used just to have the system not sound like solid state amplification is used, then you can easily get into trouble with tubes or with any other device.

RAC

New member

Username: Darkmusic

Dover, Delaware
Usa

Post Number: 10
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 07:34 am:

Thanks, Jan. Fall break arrives at my institution today -- five days of "peace, love, and music" and two sets of freshman compostion projects to critique! It will take quite a bit of Coltrane and Davis to pull me through!
Have a good weekend!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6138
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 09:52 am:

Try some Blossom Dearie. You can't be anything but smiling from the inside after 35 minutes with that lady.

Two Cents

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 650
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 08:43 pm:

Argh! I'm sad to report my first bad experience with tubes. One of the stock KT88s on my Primaluna P2 went bad in less than a year. I hear a loud pop every time the amp powers up. After rotating the location of the 4 tubes, I identified the bad one. That'll be $35 down the tube (pun sadly intended).

Is the extra hassle and expense worth the tube sound? Helll yeah!

John A., how's your P2 holding up?

RAC, I don't know about the combination of a tube cd player/tuner with a tube amp, but I can certainly recommend a turntable with a tube amp. There's something about listening to vinyl through a tube amp that just makes my ears want wrap themselves around the music and give it a tender hug.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3794
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 02:56 am:

"John A., how's your P2 holding up?"

Excellent, Two cents. I understand I shall have to replace output tubes eventually. Mine works perfectly, I think is nicely run in, and shows not a single glitch of the demo unit, all down to a faulty input selector, I think. No problems at all. Still recommended.

Good to hear from you!

Anonymous

Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:28 pm:

Help, I am trying to install a rockford 100 amp with 2 rockford 10" punches. but the problem I'm having is that my speakers in the car are now getting to much watts & not getting much to the subs is there a simple fix to this. I use to be able to turn the volume up to 35 and now if I go to 15 I fill I blow them. But if the speakers are disconnected then I can turn it up and get a little hit but its distorted. Please add any input at all. I need help bad!!!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6210
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:35 pm:

You certainly do! And you are not going to find it here. This portion of the forum is clearly marked "Home Audio".

Anonymous

Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 01:22 pm:

Sorry, Where do you suggest I go.

gritty

Unregistered guest

Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 01:59 pm:

Uhh car audio!

Two Cents

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 651
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 07:46 pm:

Were tube amps ever available in cars?

I know that turntables were an option on some cars back in the golden days of stereo. A car tube amp isn't nearly as wacky.

John A.- Glad to hear your P2 is working excellently. Now you just need to retrieve your turntable :-)