Archive through October 19, 2005

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 869
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 03:17 pm:

What does that mean?

Relevant Product Info

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4894
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 03:54 pm:

It means I've been having problems with the forum log in.

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3587
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 05:47 am:

j.c. - Way back on the is thread, people looked for word to describe the effect of switching to tube amplification. I too am at a loss for words. I think it was Rick himself who suggested "fluid" or "liquid" which I personally thought was a good shot.

When you are settled in, if it is simple, go back to solid state for a few days. See how it sounds. There are words people seem to agree on for that....

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 870
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 01:37 pm:

Unfortunately it is not easy for me to compare unless I hook up the Denon to the Totems. I think that would be unfair though because the NAD (sold to my dad) outshined the Denon considerably. I guess wide open airy would be a good start to describe the tube. It's kinda funny Jan, you asked about the beginning and ending of notes changed with tubes and when I let my inlaws hear it last nigh , the first thing one of them said was how the notes seems to come in and out so much better. I tried to get more out of him so I might be able to share on here , but he couldn't really find more words. I got the jist of it and am starting to understand what you were saying about the emerging and departure of single notes played on instruments. What I find cool is the fact that at very low levels, the tubes still bring full bodied sound to the table. Amazing.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 872
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 01:45 pm:

Here is a pic if anyone's interested.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/3/153349.jpg

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 874
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 02:00 pm:

And after getting the 4 ohm taps working, it did sound better on the 8's.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 878
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 04:49 pm:

Sorry I though I put the pic here, here it is:

Upload

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 879
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 05:00 pm:

What is tube rolling?
how do you acomplish it?
what are the pros/cons?

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1244
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 08:54 pm:

Joseph,

I have a Jolida. If you want to send me a private email, I will help you cut through the chase.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 886
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:48 am:

Do you guys Bias you own amps??

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2577
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 12:01 pm:

Yes!

Most amps have the adjustment and the manual should run you through it.
It should be checked say twice a year once you've determined it is stable.

Also anytime an output tube is changed it should be rebiased.

If you want find out more about tube rolling without us stating it all over again
you should take some time and read through this thread, there is a wealth of info!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4929
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:02 pm:

The McIntosh amps I use have "fixed bias" and require no adjustment. I check it when I change output tubes but have never had to make an adjustment. Checking requires taking off the bottom plate of the amplifier. To alter the bias setting on a fixed bias amp would require soldering in new bias resistors.

You should be aware that all tube amps are not equal in their bias adjustment range. When you change output tubes you should know the "average" bias setting your amp prefers. Looking at tubes to purchase find tubes that have operational characteristics that fall within that range. If you put in an output tube that requires higher bias voltage/current than your amp allows, you'll probably be disappointed in the final sound of the amp. If you run tubes too close to, or beyond, their bias limits, you will drastically change the life span of the tubes. Sometimes "DRASTICALLY"!

There is, of course, no need to change bias if you change an input, driver or rectifier tube.

http://www.webace.com.au/~electron/tubes/screens.htm

http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=fixed%20bias%20McIntosh%20vacuum%20tube%20a mplifiers

On most amplifiers with adjustable bias, the operation is simple enough to allow the owner to do what needs to be done on a "maintenance" sort of schedule as Kegger suggests. After warming up the amp to settle the bias, it is usually suggested you check for any drift on a more frequent basis if the amplifier has included a front panel meter and switching for checking individual tubes. This could catch a problem with a bias resistor before it turns into a more expensive repair.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 887
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:39 pm:

My amp has user bias adjustment on the top of the amp and was wondering if this :https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/biasrite/br_page.htm looks like a good idea and also would the VI option be worth investing in?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4934
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 02:23 pm:

I'll let Kegger weigh in also but all you need is a multi purpose multi meter from Radio Shack or a hardware/electronics supply house for $10-15.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2578
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:12 pm:

I have to agree with Jan that other stuff looks a little gimicky and your adding something
to the amp that you don't know what it might do to the sound or create some unforseen
problem. I would just stick to a standard meter for about $30 max. If you want to spend
more on a better meter I certainly would not knock anyone doing that.

A nice meter that also has the HFE test for both pnp and npn transistors is pretty handy.

Look for one that has multiple ohm and voltage settings that go nice and low in
the millivolts and resistance so get nice accurate readings on low measurements.
Can be a very handy tool for many applications.

I personally have 3 meters 1 cheep one and 2 better ones "just in case" and the one I
like best is a beckman industrial DM27xL just seems right to me with how it does what it does!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 888
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:19 pm:

I was confused guys. I just got the manual faxed to me from Jolida and realize the little connector type thingy at the back of the amp is for the multimeter prongs . I have just completed the initial setting and made it 50.4-50.6 millivolts across the board. Is that sufficient? Manual says anywhere inbetween 45-55mv.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2579
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:54 pm:

Sounds about right to me!

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2580
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:56 pm:

Just curious what were they running at?

In other words did you have to make much of an adjustment?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 895
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 05:29 pm:

I started from scratch(went all the way counter clockwise) so i don't know. but it did look a little different (the screw position) after I reset them.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4937
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 05:46 pm:

If the amp is fully broken in, I would allow it to run for several hours to really stabilize the temps in the X-formers and then do some adjustments and listening. Every tube and every circuit have a best point for every system. Just as with the adjustments to be made on a turntable or tweaking speaker placement, adjusting the bias on a tube amp can affect the perceived sound quality. Only you can decide what you hear and what suits your system tastes.

Run the tubes down in bias and the amp will run slightly cooler. So will the sound. The amp won't produce quite as much power but it also won't produce as much distortion component. Run the amp hotter with more bias and you push the point where the tubes cross over from = to - waveform just a bit further. The amp runs a little closer to Class A operation at slighly higher wattages. The amp will probably sound somewhat different at the two extremes of bias settings. You can always return it to the mid point if you hear no diffference. On the other hand, running the tubes at the lowest bias voltage possible to get good sound will, somewhat, extend the tubes useful lifespan.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4938
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 05:47 pm:

Tube rolloing and bias setting. Welcome to the world of tube neurosis.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 896
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 06:13 pm:

lol it is the ultimate for an obsessive compulsive.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2581
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 07:37 pm:

You talkin about me? LOL!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 898
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 08:12 pm:

Hey Jan, you into espresso??

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4942
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 08:52 pm:

I'm Italian; of course.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 900
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 09:43 pm:

I got a Breville espresso maker a couple of months back and it was a huge jump from the cheapy boiler krups I had. The whole espresso thing seems to compare to the hifi world. You can spend thousands on an espresso machine to get the "perfect" brew and crema. Anyway, I was wondering if you had made the jump to something a little better in quality and did you notice a big diff?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 903
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 10:03 pm:

Gonna start rolling my a$s of soon with some Sovtek 12AX7LPS on the pre side to see what happens. Gotta love the endless possiblities with tubes.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4949
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:07 pm:

j.c. - Re: espresso

Throw away the junk that does the brewing in a machine. Do espresso the way Italians do espresso. Either buy a $1,200 espresso machinatta or a $15 espresso pot. I, of course, use the pot. The machinatta is only for making dozens of cups of cafe at a time. I have several pots that make from one to six cups and a mocha pot also. It is placed on the stove and the water is steamed through the grounds. I gave my nephew one of these pots to replace what he was using from some automatic thing and he loves it. Bialetti Brikka is the best known of the pots but the one I use daily is the la Signora caffettiera. Much better espresso than any espresso maker I've tried.

http://www.bialettiusa.com/bialetti/products.html

As any Italian will tell you though, it is the coffee that makes the difference once you have the right pot.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2591
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 11:44 am:

Hey Jan picked up 3 dynaco fm-3 tuners a while back for a good price and finally got
around to checking them out well at least the best looking candidate.

Brought er up on the variac and she hummed and crackled but we left er running
to try and clear out the cobwebs. It did get a little better and got some reception
but when moved or bumped still crackled. So I began to check some solder traces and
found the usual of someone replacing the can cap with the twists that hold them in.
People just don't solder them to the chassis and it's a big source of hum. Then I found
a crack in the edge of one board so resoldered the traces. After all that it LIVES!

I really like the tone of this unit, very pleasent to listen to.

Havn't looked at the other 2 yet, one has an obvious problem of the tuner
dial melted and being u shaped so it won't turn. These were suppose to be 2 fm-3's
and 1 fm-1 but as it turns out all 3 are fm-3's, allright!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4963
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:08 pm:

Like most Dyna gear, the FM-3's were decent performers for the money spent. Have you had a tube tuner in your system before?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 906
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

"Gonna start rolling my a$s of soon with some Sovtek 12AX7LPS on the pre side to see what happens. Gotta love the endless possiblities with tubes."

Scratch that, gonna try some JJ's instead

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 912
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:37 pm:

You guys have to try Eric Bibb on tubes whoa! what a great sound.

Rick Barnes

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1245
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:44 pm:

Ok, easy.....slow down. Don't forget to breathe.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2597
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 05:13 pm:

Hope things are goin good there RICK!

Jan no I have not had a tube tuner, should be picking up my sherwood today that
was sent out to be aligned and gone through by the guy I'm getting it from.

I traded a PC for it and the unit was sent to another guy I know who has a buisiness
of restoring and aligning tuners and supposably the guy does good work and he really
likes this tuner. For what that is worth. I should know more by tommorrow.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 928
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 07:09 pm:

Hey guys, does it take some time for the pre amp tubes to break in?

Hooked up some JJ TESLA 12ax7wa tubes and while the bottom end is sweet, the mids seem to break up easier than what I had in there (don't know what brand was in there but I think they are Chinese, so then cannot be better). Thoughts?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5010
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:22 pm:

Microphonics!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 932
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:26 pm:

look it up huh?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 933
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:35 pm:

will it change , or do I have a bum set. The others didn't break up like this.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2608
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:39 pm:

joseph coulson in my experience the tesla's do have decent bass and mids but
the high's aren't that great.

If you go back through this thread both jan and I have given our thoughts on tubes.

Just a quick feneral rule of thumb from ME is that output tubes don't make
as much of a difference as input tubes and that the newer output tubes are pretty good.
But for the most part I don't like the new input tubes being made today.

So if you want a better sounding tube I suggest you get some older tubes.
Telefunken and bugle boy are some of the best all around tubes whjile the mullards are
great bass and midrange but all of them are pretty expensive so I usually suggest
looking for some RCA's as I feel they are the best bang for the buck and have a
pretty good all around tone!

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 936
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:56 pm:

I think I got scared all of a sudden , but I really think it may not have helped that the first cd I threw in was "heavier things" by John Mayer. As nice and clear as this cd is, it is recorded very high and the one song that caught my attn. has a heck of alot going on. I will look for some RCA's though Keg, thanks. It does sound better than the Chinese ones though, I put some Ottmar in and all is well in Jolida land.

Do you guys know where I could get some kind of decent wood holder for the tubes I am going to acquire?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 937
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:01 pm:

Jan I am sorry for bringing up that old post of Tawauns. He just really aggravates me with all of the inconsistency he throws around. It won't happen again.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5014
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:24 pm:

Okey dokey.

I don't know what sort of wood holder you're looking for.

All tubes are microphonic to some extent. How they react in a ciruit is a function the the tube, the amplifer, the support system and the music. If things are clean(er) with the Ottmar, then the problem has at least something to do with microphonics. Give a quick check for microphonics by placing the volume at a medium low setting with no active input selected (i.e., no music playing). Tap the glass envelope of the tubes with the eraser end of a pencil. The more microphonic tubes will show themself. If this is the problem, you can try to isolate the amplifier farther away from the speakers or switch to less microphonic tubes. Catch 22 is the finer elements of the tube that make it sound good also make it microphonic. Get one, get the other.

A quick, cheap simple fix is to get a few tennis or raquet balls and cut them in half. Use these as supports for your amplifier. They're not $300 roller balls, but cost effectiveness scores very high.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 938
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:17 pm:

Well, it's not the tubes. Didn't really hear anything when tapped. Do tubes go through the usual break in process? maybe I cranked them too soon out of the box?

Maybe you guys use something to keep the tubes in for easy access, without having to rebox and stack the original cardboard boxes for storage?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5022
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:48 am:

Tubes have to be nice and warm before they sound their best.

Since I don't do too much tube rolling any longer, maybe Kegger has an idea for you. I put my unused tubes in their boxes in the closet.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2613
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:53 am:

Well this may sound weird but I use a couple of fishing tackle boxes.

As they have ample storage in the bottom for boxed stuff plus individual trays
for tubes I like to test or just rotate. Plus I have an old tube caddie full.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 939
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:41 am:

perfect

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5032
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 03:20 pm:

One of the problems I've run into with new tubes is the market for vacuum tubes is still dominated by the musical instrument business. This is especially true in the more popular tube numbers where EL34's, 6L6's, 12AX7's and so forth are used in guitar amplifiers. What the consumer audio market wants from a tube is very different from what the musician wants. Where a consumer will dispose of a tube as distortions rise and the tube is considered worn out, the musician will consider that same tube just getting broken in. The way a tube distorts when overdriven is a consideration for the musician they will seek out. That a tube distorts at all is unpleasant for the "audiophile" to consider.

The first set of replacement tubes I purchased back in the early 1980's were from Groove Tube. Their business was predominantly geared to musicicans as the home audio market hadn't swung back to tubes at all from the 1970's. The output tubes I purchased were graded "1" through "10" to indicate their "softness" or "hardness" which indicated how prone to break up the tube was as it reached its limits. The softer the tube the "sweeter" the distortion product and the longer it took to tip into distortion. The harder the tube, the more hard edged distortion the tube produced and, like a transistor amplifier, the sooner it went into clipping. The closer the tube grading got to 10, the more it supposedly duplicated the sound of a solid state amplifier.

When shopping for tubes, whether input, driver, rectifier or output tubes, it is best to inquire what the characteristics of the tubes are before you pay your money. A simple question as to where will the tube work best could be important.