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Thread: Are there ANY benefits to BI-WIRING? |
    
Silver Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
USA
Post Number: 323
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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Are there ANY benefits to BI-WIRING? On the surface, I can't see the benefits to justify the added cost. So am I missing something? |
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Silver Member Username: Gavincumm
New York
USA
Post Number: 416
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 01:02 pm: |
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you are better off doubling up on the cost on a decent wire vs. using a cheaper wire to bi-wire. |
Silver Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
USA
Post Number: 325
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 01:19 pm: |
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Gavin, so there's no benefit IYO. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 6895
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 01:50 pm: |
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Place "biwiring speakers" into a search engine and you will get plenty of facts and opinions. After you read the articles you can try biwiring and decide for yourself whether you hear any benefits. That's the only way to make a decision that is relevant to your system instead of taking the word of anyone on a forum. Biwiring is system dependent and listener dependent. If the beenfits of biwiring are not in the area of what you listen for in a system, then there is little point in spending additional money. Most shops will loan a cable for experimentation.
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New member Username: Allen
Post Number: 7
Registered: Sep-05
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| Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
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Single wire or bi wire, its the same.Its the crossover that filters and distributes frequencies. Just my opinion. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2444
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:44 am: |
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Wrong. Follow Jan's advice. |
Silver Member Username: Rysa4
Post Number: 238
Registered: Jul-05
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:07 am: |
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I have ti agree with Jans comments here- system and listener dependent. The first part of that concise phrase to me has to do with some technical considerations that would make for quite the lengthy post. The second is subjective. Personally I view listening as a skill where perhaps ignorance can be bliss.
In any case, perhaps a discussion of the theory of biwiring is all about. Certainly not my strong suit, as I dont use biwires personally, although four of my speakers are set up for bi-wiring. AS I understand it, the theory is to separate higher frequency signal from lower frequency signal as one can interfere with the other. This lay oversimplified sentence is what I came away with after a light read a couple of years back. I was satisfied with my own sonic result as is with my reference audio system so I didn't go with bi-wiring. |
Gold Member Username: Edster922
Abubala,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 3391
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:08 am: |
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> Wrong. Follow Jan's advice.
ah...nothing so beautiful as democracy on the march!
lol |
Gold Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 1341
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:44 am: |
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Its a article in Stereophile or The Absolute Sound,about biwiring,Me I always biwire my speakers,and to my ears its always beena considerable difference,but its objective just like audio its self.See a small difference for the better is considerable to me,but to others its not,just like some people dont hear a huge difference between a good $ 1000 speaker and a good $10,000 speaker.In some peoples eyes or rather their ears a 10% improvement isnt much,but to some who is striving for ultimate audio excellence its a 200% improvement to their ears.So it comes down to a question of priorities as it does in anything in life,and only you can answer that,and whats important to you and whats ultimately feasable to you the individial. |
Silver Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
USA
Post Number: 339
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 09:10 am: |
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T
I already know that wine aficionados will spend hundreds of dollars on the proper glass to enjoy a certain bottle of wine.
If you can market a $100 cigar to a cigar smoker, I bet you there’s a way to marketing a $10 matchstick to that same person.
People who see things with there eyes that can't be seen by other people are crazy (or ill, depending on how PC you are), agreed? So doesn't the same hold true to people who hear things that other rational & reasonable people with healthy hearing can't hear.
I understand that there are certain intangibles that are totally subjective, that can't be measured, but I think the chronograph vs. wristwatch analogy makes sense, nice cables (not to mention amps, speakers, cd players, etc.), past a certain point are, I suppose, like nice watches, art; and art is totally in the eye of the beholder. |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2447
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 09:19 am: |
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There is a difference between "can't hear" and "don't know how to listen".
"nice cables (not to mention amps, speakers, cd players, etc.), past a certain point are, I suppose, like nice watches, art; and art is totally in the eye of the beholder."
Past what point and who decides? |
Silver Member Username: Exerciseguy
Brooklyn,
NY
USA
Post Number: 340
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 09:26 am: |
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Good point Art, but let's suppose that we're dealing with equally well trained ears, there is a difference IMHO between "hears" and "thinks they hear", that's my point. |
ererererer Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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I dont agree with the existance of a certain point where above it all equipment is art art art
To me its a passion of looking for the ultimate and closest to perfection sound and the only justification to set a breaking point is the money limitation
Once a person has the pasion for hi end money is the only stopper
If there is no passion anything above 250 mini component is too much |
Silver Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 708
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 03:18 pm: |
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I figgur that if you are at a listening point to identify specific qualities in wiring, you have a kick-butt system and/or a very well tuned ear.
If I am looking for marked improvements in my system, and cables do it for me, fine.
When I am at a point where I am happy with the sound, THEN try cables for whatever effect I want, then spand the bucks.
Unless, I use as supplied molded rca's, the improvement can't be night and day.
That said, I havn't had the chance to try cubicbucks wiring. |
Silver Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 709
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 03:23 pm: |
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On the same thread, I rewired my fronts as Frank Abela suggested, and found a large difference in the performance of my Psb silver fronts.
By replacing the binding strips with wire and splitting the source wires, the difference was measurable.
That was at the load end of the circuit, and I still don't know why a difference was made, but very much so.
Perhaps if Christopher tries this(if not already), it might point out potential.
Replace strips with speaker wire, apply + wire to high side +, apply - wire to bass side -.
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New member Username: Allen
Post Number: 8
Registered: Sep-05
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| Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 12:53 am: |
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>wrong. Follow Jan's advice
That is why I chose Dynaudio because I don't believe in bi-wiring too.And why I need to follow his advice?Filters allow to pass and reject audio frequencies and speaker wires only act as a medium to carry audio signal.And why there are no tri-wire in a three way system? |
Bronze Member Username: Onimushalord
Post Number: 24
Registered: Nov-04
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| Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 08:00 am: |
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There are triwire systems even amongst the high/mid end speaker manufacturers eg.
ATC SCM35 is triwirable (the 2 ways are biwirable)
Epos M22 (anoter 5 star award winner) is also triwirable
Not that triwiring is superior or anything as you also realise lots of other manufacturers don't bother about that, not to mention the hassle & cost(imagine the cost of 3 runs of Nordost Blue Heaven II), but it is at least present if tweaking comes into mind, knowing that audio tweakers are not uncommon in the hifi arena.
*Personally* I biwire all my speakers (if they are biwirable) as I do hear a difference, not much on some speakers but fairly obvious on a few. Think of it this way, the debate is usually on whether biwiring is superior to single-wiring or no difference, BUT hardly do you hear that single-wiring is better than biwiring. It goes to show that if you biwire properly, you either get better sound or same sound as single-wiring, but if you opt for single wire, you either get same sound or inferior sound. However, there have been some incidents whereby biwiring improperly(mismatch or using different cables types for both upper/lower posts) have resulted in phase shift problems due to sound reaching the Xover at different time for both the highs and lows. Use the same cable when you start off and play around as you build up.
Cheers |
New member Username: Hartley_zodiak
Chitenanger,
Yes
Guamm
Post Number: 2
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:42 am: |
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Triwiring is pretty good, but biwiring imho is a little bit better. Single wiring is better still. But the best of all is no wiring at all. It just gets in the way of the sound. |
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| Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:44 am: |
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Triwiring is pretty good, but biwiring imho is a little bit better. Single wiring is better still. But if you want truly great sound, I highly recommend no wiring at all. My speakers sound far better this way. And those pesky wires just get in the way. |
New member Username: Hartley_zodiak
Chitenanger,
Yes
Guamm
Post Number: 5
Registered: Dec-05
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| Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 01:12 am: |
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.
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Great for listening to John Cage
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Silver Member Username: Mixneffect
Orangevale,
Ca.
USA
Post Number: 696
Registered: Apr-05
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| Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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Who cares?
The signal is split either at the amp, or the crossover.
When you have more wire, it adds inductance and resistance.
So, if under normal circumstances you have one 12 gauge wire set (per channel) from the amp to the crossover, and then it is split so that the tweeter is wired using one set of wires, and another set going to the woofer.
Now, bi-wiring you would have two sets of 12 gauge wires (per channel) from the amp to the speaker terminal. This means that you have more wire. Once inside the enclosure, you would still need to run separate wires to each. More wire = more inductance. More wire = more resistance.
If current or voltage drop is a concern, then just run better (cleaner) or bigger gauge wire. In home audio applications where the amp and speakers are so close to each other, current/voltage drops are not even an issue.
IMHO bi-wiring is creating more damage than it is helping.
Bi-wiring is a marketing scam.
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Silver Member Username: Mixneffect
Orangevale,
Ca.
USA
Post Number: 697
Registered: Apr-05
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| Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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If you really want to get critical, then get four mono block amps and run each mono block amp to a differenbt driver. This would only apply to two-way systems.
For three way systems you would need six mono block amps.
No need to explain the drawbacks of signal spliting.
As you may know, multi amp output pre-amps are hard to come by and not recommended for real hi-end audiofiles.
KEEP THINGS SIMPLE ! |
Silver Member Username: Rysa4
Post Number: 241
Registered: Jul-05
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| Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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AS long as the total length of all wire is less than about 50 feet, the additional inductance and resistance you mention in a 12 gauge wire alone will not in anyway impact audio signal transmission. and thats being conservative a far as the length goes. |
Bronze Member Username: Frostyda9
Calgary,
AB
Canada
Post Number: 71
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 08:43 pm: |
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"By replacing the binding strips with wire and splitting the source wires, the difference was measurable.
That was at the load end of the circuit, and I still don't know why a difference was made, but very much so."
IMO, depending on the speakers (and the quality of the strip), replacing the jumper strip with, say, #12 copper can make an audible difference. I have found that experimenting with crossing the inputs (as you mentioned) can yield audible results as well.
It's a fact of life that even the purest gold strip will be less conductive than it's copper equivalent.
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Silver Member Username: Nuck
Parkhill,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 769
Registered: Dec-04
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| Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 08:49 pm: |
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Frosty, the circuit is STILL parallel, and i found, no doubt a LARGE difference in response, measurable in low driver excursion!?
I always figgured 1over/1overR1+ioverR2 etc etc.
I canna figgur.
One of many things by the way!
Merry Christmas. |
