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Thread: Twilight of the Compact Disc |
    
Silver Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 589
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 02:39 am: |
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To anyone who values sound quality, and who is thinking of buying a CD player.
Ensure that any new player you buy is capable of playing DVD-Audio.
DVD-Audio, also known as "DVD-A", is now the medium that provides for the most accurate reproduction of recorded music.
Every DVD-Audio player will also play Compact Disc ("CD") Audio, and DVD-Video ("DVD-V") discs.
In addition to the DVD-Audio format, every DVD-Audio disc also carries the audio tracks in DVD-Video formats, that is, DTS or Dolby Digital, and usually both.
Therefore you can already play any DVD-Audio disc, and get excellent sound, on any DVD player.
But a DVD-Audio disc played on a DVD-Audio player gives more than excellent sound, it gives fantastic sound.
DVD-Audio renders CD obsolete for sound quality.
DVD-Audio is a 5.1 surround-sound format. But it also gives benefits in hi-fi stereo. Most DVD-Audio discs also carry a stereo version of the programme material, at higher resolution than is possible on CD. DVD-A players also allow a stereo downmix of the 5.1.
DVD-Audio Introduction provides technical and further information from the viewpoint of DVD/CD production, (Deluxe Global Media Services Ltd.)
I am an audio and music enthusiast, with no competing interest, commercial or otherwise, nor any connection with any relevant commercial organisation. |
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Relevant Product Info
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Silver Member Username: Gman
Mt. Pleasant,
SC
Post Number: 410
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 04:57 pm: |
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Speaking of which, last night I played my DVD-A disc of The Band's-"The Last Waltz" concert (originally filmed and recorded under the aegis of Martin Scorcese in analogue multitrack). The Band's guitarist and main songwriter, Robbie Robertson, performed the task of making the DVD-A disc, which also has cd stereo.
While I prefer watching and listening to the DVD-Video in surround, the DVD-A is excellent, with a few extra tracks the film omitted.
Great performances by The Band, and guest performers: Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Joni Mitchell, Muddy Waters, Dr. John, Paul Butterfield, Eric Clapton, and others.
Sadly, this was their final performance (hence, the last waltz). The performance by The Band members (particularly on their own songs) is drop dead amazing. The harmonies, the lead vocals, the amazing brass choir playing on some cuts, is a joy to both hear and behold.
The only other performance on DVD that is on a par with this is the Bruce Springsteen and The E Street Band at NYC disc, performed a couple of years ago at Madison Square Garden. It is a rock n' roll revival meeting at its best. Again, with great recording and performances.
Both are must owns (particularly the DVD-V's) for anyone remotely interested or intrigued. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 152
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 06:24 pm: |
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Gregory
Just recently acquired "The Last Waltz" on DVD-V from a discount bin after being reminded about it by yourself and John A. I barely remembered it from years ago and really enjoyed the 5.1 experience. The sound was quite good considering and the performances were great.
If you like contempory blues, I must recommend John Mayall's 70th birthday concert in DVD-V. The performances by Mayall, Clapton, Taylor and the Bluesbreakers were really something - their lead guitarist was outstanding. And the DTS 5.1 surround was superb. 130 mins of really enjoyable entertainment.
If only there was some Van Morrison performances on DVD-V! |
Silver Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 631
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:00 pm: |
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My Rantz and Gregory,
Thanks. I am going to look out for these recommendations. People have posted here that there isn't much material on DVD-Audio but try Google or equiv. I think I read somewhere there are now 700 titles.
I have bought a some DVD-A discs, just out of interest in the format, and have ended up learning and liking music I didn't previously know much about. It's a pleasure, and a bit like being back with buying my first LPs. Sometimes, you know, too much choice is effectively less choice. Unless you can just walk into one record dealer and see everything there is available. There are very few shops like that.
Gregory,
You said The Last Waltz on DVD-A also has CD stereo. Sure? If so, it is the first "Hybrid" I have heard about. The format link in my last post (April 12) says these are planned, and will have CD on one side, DVD-A on the other. That has to be a good thing.
One disc I have has DVD-A on one side and DVD-V on the other. This is also very good. I get the impression that disc makers have not settled on a way of getting both formats easily available on one side of one disc. Just for sound quality you would not choose DVD-V, but you might want it for the video footage.
I wonder why we never saw double-sided CDs?
Or single-sided LPs, for that matter?
Basic questions. I am enjoying the jolt of DVD-A! |
Silver Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 781
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:05 pm: |
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My Rantz and Gregory,
I am trying to find all who recommended "The Last Walz": Thank you! What a fantastic concert. What a fantastic band. What fantastic guests. What a tribute to all-round talented musicians. |
Bronze Member Username: Vulture99
Post Number: 19
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 04:31 pm: |
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I listened to a DVD-A disc for the first time recently, using my NAD T533 and T763, and PSB 5T speakers. All I can say is HOLY $^&@#!! Wow, what an incredible step up from CDs. I had no idea. The disc is a DVD-A sampler that came in a DVD player I bought a while back - I came across the disc when redoing my A/V system. It has various rock, classical, and jazz tracks. I was (am) completely blown away by the clarity, presence, and range of the music. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1036
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 08:45 pm: |
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Mike,
What a pleasure to read your post. I agree completely.
I wrote a review here of my new NAD T533. I am quite sure good people think I've become unhinged.
Also take a look, if you can, under the new category here "Home Audio: DVD-Audio and SACD".
Two questions for you, if you will.
1. What exactly is the sampler disc?
2. Why is this revolution in audio not more widely known and understood.....?!
I have had about a month to calm down a bit, but am still with you in your excitement. It goes on being like that. Completely fantastic sound, isn't it? I do not think I shall ever buy another CD, unless there are special reasons. |
Bronze Member Username: Kendrid
Post Number: 30
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
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"Why is this revolution in audio not more widely known and understood"
There is almost no marketing for SACD/DVD-A, and John Q Public does not care about sound quality. Want proof? Look at the number of people *paying* to download compressed music from iTunes.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1053
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:23 am: |
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Kevin,
Yes, but many people are also interested in getting the best sound. Look at this forum!
iTunes and MP3 are convenience formats, and many people place higher priority on that than we might. But there is no competition between those two, that I see.
In the middle is CD, with less convenience than iTunes, and worse sound than DVD-Audio. That was the thought behind the title of this thread. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vulture99
Post Number: 20
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 01:50 pm: |
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I think people have been conditioned that CD == music, and DVD != music. I'm guessing that most folks don't know or understand that DVD's aren't just for video - even many of those folks who are interested in getting the best sound. The masses probably don't care so much, like Kevin said.
I agree about not buying CDs in the future! Problem is, I listen to a lot of obscure music that probably won't make it to DVD-A anytime soon.
I'll try to remember to take a look at that sampler disc tonight and report back. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1058
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 02:37 pm: |
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I think you absolutely right, Mike. Most people think "DVD" stands for "Digital Video Disc". It even says "Digital Video Disc Player" on the back panel of the NAD T533. And the manual is not much help. As I said in my review, if I had something like that on offer, I'd be shouting it from the rooftops.
The DVD-A disc catalogues are mixed, right now, and fairly sparse. That is how it was in the first few years of CD - the people with special interests were early adopters, and the mass market was years behind; it is very conservative. As regards DVD-A vs CD, I am quite sure all this is going to change, and soon. Perhaps SACD will grow but have limited success, like the audio cassette. It was amazing the technology that was put into trying to get good sound out of analogue audio cassettes, which were not designed for sound quality in the first place. Dolby got successful by marketing a tweak for that, Dolby A, B, and C noise reduction, which helped it a bit. But it was still a flawed format, from the start. |
Bronze Member Username: Vulture99
Post Number: 21
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:41 pm: |
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The first CD I purchased in the 80s was Dark Side of the Moon. I bet I wasn't the only one :-)
I agree with you regarding your SACD/cassette analogy. I actually still have a NAD tape deck that I keep around because I have several hundred tapes - mainly bootlegs from my tape trading days in the early 90s.
The DVD-A disc I mentioned came packaged with a JVC DVD player a couple of years ago. I totally forgot I had it until coming across it recently. It was a promotional disc (not for sale), entitled The DVD-Audio Experience. I Googled for it and found a press release, of all things: http://www.jvc.com/company/press.jsp?pressType=1&item=197 This lists most of the artists on the disc. The two tracks that impressed me the most were Dvorak's Symphony No. 9 (Mvt. 4) and Lucky Man by ELP.
I've never been a great fan of classical music, but the classical tracks from this disc have me thinking I might get a few classical titles on DVD-A! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1061
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:20 am: |
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Thanks, Mike.
When Cd was still fairly new, I bought a Marantz player, and two CDs came with that. Dire Straights and a version of the Dvorak New World Symphony. I suppose they want to show what a new medium will do.
Not so long after, I bought a Sony Walkman Pro as a tape deck. It's OK for recording live, with a microphone. It doesn't do music well, only speech. I've taken it back a couple of times because of flutter, but the Sony Center insists it is me, because it is up to spec. Mostly, however, I find the result of recording Cds etc. is an awful lot of wasted time and a tape which, on a good day, might come close to the CD. I never got into DAT etc. Now, if I want something off the radio etc., I use the VCR. It sounds much better. So it should, look at the width of the tape, and it's one-sided, too.
In my opinion, orchestral music is too complex to be accessible if the sound quality is not good. You just can't hear all the different parts. DVD-A really takes that on one stage, and especially in 5.1 multichannel. As I have said too many times on other threads, Naxos has a small but growing catalogue of classical DVD-As. They are good quality and amazingly cheap. If you liked the Dvorak, a good choice as a DVD-A orchestral showcase might be the Naxos Holst's The Planets. Played REALLY loud! Great piece of music, too. |
Bronze Member Username: Kendrid
Post Number: 31
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:35 am: |
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I've participated in threads like this at home theater forum . com and it never ends. Still, I don't think DVD-A or SACD will ever be mainstream.
I realize that is a 'tough' position to take, but people *really* don't care that much about sound quality. This forum is nothing (no offense) compared to avs or HTF, but still compared to the number of shoppers at Best Buy or CC we are drastically outnumbered.
I have a lot of techie friends who *should* be into these high-end formats, but they all literally laughed when I explained them to them. "MP3 is good enough" is what 95% of them said.
I personally don't like surround music, mainly because most mixes are very fake and to get the same speakers all around my system would be very costly. Still, with 2.1 DVD-A or SACD I doubt most people would hear a difference, and even if they could they would not care.
You have to step away from the forums and look at the rest of society. Listening to music on a decent system has gone the way of the dinosaur. It is sad, but very true. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1063
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 01:47 am: |
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Kevin,
I think you are mostly correct, but do not see it as a problem. High priority for sound quality has always been a minority view. And why not? People choose what they want. Personally, I do look at the rest of society. But let's stick with audio, it is the special topic of interest, here.
Around 1960 or so, people must have written much as you do, but about about stereophonic sound reproduction. Most people could not see the point, and almost all records were in mono, anyway. Stereo eventually took over completely. Even by the end of the reign of the LP/single (around 1985), when all records were stereo, many people were still playing them on all-in-one units with one speaker.
People also got pleasure from listening to music on tape cassette players and, later, CD players of all sorts. It will continue. But, eventually, one medium pretty well disappears, because its disadvantages are clear to everybody, and there is no extra cost in getting a better one.
I don't know where things will be in, say 2025. Almost certainly our children/grandchildren will look at people's large and treasured CD collections, wonder why anyone bothered with CDs, and feel pleased to be born at a better time. What THEY will take for granted, I do not know....
For now, DVD-Audio is a big, easily discernible improvement in sound quality over CD. And, for anyone with home theatre/cinema surround-sound, where there is a huge market take-up going on right now, the extra cost of getting DVD-Audio is very small. The CD has been most people's way of getting the music they like for about 15 years. Before that, the LP/single record had about 25-30 years. The LP gave better sound than the shellac 78s that went before. The CD didn't give better sound than the LP, not in itself. 15-20 years is not bad for a medium that was a retrograde step for all except convenience. But it is now beaten, hands-down, from both directions.
The CD is on its way out. It is easy to see. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 265
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:23 am: |
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"The CD is on its way out. It is easy to see."
John A - As with most of your interesting contributions you may be quite right with that statement, but we also say that we, as people start dying from the moment we are born. So I think that if a day is the life of the cd, then maybe it is closer to noon than it is the twilight.
And really, the CD was only a retrograde step for some. For those people who never had quality HiFi and turntables, the cd is certainly a marked improvement over LP's. Many of us in our youth played LP's on our parent's combo players (which, for many, were more of a furniture item than a music device) or portable players that looked like beauty cases (and in my case a horrible Sanyo Quadraphic outfit). Granted that some had the passion for quality sound and will agree that LP's do deliver better sound than the CD. But, the transition to yet another singular format now is much more complicated given the fact that CD players are much more common than record players ever were: in cars, boats, discmans, cheap portables, compact home systems, and component systems ranging from low cost to the ridiculous. Many people have these multiple sources to play CD's, so one format that can simply be played on any DVD player (let alone the universal ones) would not yet be practical - at least for another generation or so.
IMHO I think CD's will be around with all the other formats until there is a real revolution in the way we listen to music - may it will be in the form of a pill - but it would be a bitter one to swallow just like we all had to swallow the promises of the CD.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1090
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:35 am: |
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My Rantz,
I agree with all you write. Thanks, and welcome back!
CD got a big boost when you could buffer enough signal and provide effective shock protection during playback; that was what saw off the audio cassette, for "Walkmen" and in cars, I think. And now you can easily burn CDs, too: no consumer could do that when they were first introduced, it was very hi-tech. We should also remember that the format (12 cm silver disc) was, and is popular, and that led to the DVD.
I don't think a pill will do it. I suspect internet streaming will win in the end, possibly by satellite. I think the industry thinks so, too, and most of the new thinking is going into ways to be able to sell content independently of the medium that carries it. My personal view is that this is a "hidden agenda" of SACD: the "quality" factor is just a more acceptable sales pitch.
You can get acceptable radio on the internet, today, at 56 kbps - that's roughly 3 MB every minute When you play a CD, you are effectively "downloading" about 15 MB every minute. With DVD-A, it goes up another big step, to around 100 MB per minute. When ordinary people can take that sort of bandwidth for granted, and it is at their personal disposal, then the world will be quite a different place. Personally, I would nominate Tim Berners-Lee and friends for a Nobel prize. The internet is the real revolution.
My whole point is that DVD-A, not CD, provides the first digital format that delivers the resolution required for high-quality sound reproduction. If that is what you want. I agree, most people don't much care, but I don't see why they should, really. I am not on any sort of crusade.
We live in interesting times. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 267
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
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"I am not on any sort of crusade"
John A - Thanks, but come on old chap! You are on a crusade - the DVD-A crusade - and I applaud you for it. Also I most certainly do get your point, I was only making it a little more subjective. I'm chapping at the bit to get a player (it will be a while longer now after the holiday) and quite frankly I don't care if DVD-A (and the evil SACD) remain in a niche market providing there will be an abundance of choice. If, as you say (and I do believe you) these formats can deliver an appreciatable difference from my best CD recordings then I'll be in audio heaven.
And I also want to thank you, seriously, for all the information you've posted about the DVD-A format. It will be of enormous benefit in my selection process as you've clearly pointed out there many variations in the format worth considering.
Yes, the internet is the real revolution (I wasn't serious about a pill) and future audio download options may be mind boggling, and that may well be the future of our supply source but imo I see that as just another negative the internet will be creating for the future. Okay, surf for the information, but let's get some exercise, go out and browse, and buy it from an employee. Who knows? You may get a smile and be told to have a nice day - and help keep someone in a job!
We certainly do live in interesting times.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1098
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 12:13 am: |
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My Rantz,
Thanks. You are most kind, and make me feel quite at home here.
I am not at all on a crusade; in the sense that I really don't mind what people do with their own time and money: I have no wish to tell people what to do. When I read/hear what I think is nonsense, I try, politely, to enquire why the writer/speaker holds that view. One of us must be wrong: it could be me. When it seems fairly clear that nonsense is being defended, knowingly, for some hidden objective, I confess I can look maybe like a man with a mission. But, in the end, people believe what they want to, too. And that is a good thing, and should also be defended.
I knew you were not serious about "the pill", of course - you set yourself up for a nice metaphor. Accidentally, we touch on the other thing (apart from the internet and satellite telecommunications) that has changed everything, irreversibly, it seems, within our lifetimes, namely oral contraception. Let's not get into that, not here!
Home audio is of limited interest. So it should be, in the broad scheme of things. I keep thinking that music has something to offer, though.
What I continually puzzle about is how I can learn so much, here, from people literally on the other side of the World, whom I shall probably never meet. In a perfect world we would all probably live and work among like-minded people. Making written contact with such people on an internet forum is entirely new to me. There are worse ways of spending one's time.
I learned about DVD-Audio here, on this forum. I just pass on what I find, adding my own experience, just because it seems there are people who might be interested, as I was. The first post on this thread is one of my attempts to draw this little revolution to anybody and everybody who might be passing, and be interested: worrying about brands of CD player, today, makes no sense, to me. Barriers to understanding are sometimes quite simple, and lie in the way that people understand each other, or fail to. On the issue of DVD-Audio, it is clear that the penny has not yet dropped for a lot of otherwise clever and sensible people. "The industry" can hardly be surprised! It seems to me it mostly takes us for mugs, but that is my crusader tendency, again. I shall watch out for it.
Soap box? Yes, I plead guilty. Crusade? No, not really.
There is supposed to be an ancient curse "May you live in interesting times".
Seems it's fallen on us all, today. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 270
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 01:09 am: |
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John A
Well okay, let's call it a soapbox and I'll get on it also when I get to hear what you are hearing now. As I said previously, it may be up to us and others here and on other forums to spread the word. But, you're right, people will either get it or they won't.
Oh and congratulations Gold Member - jeez I could have some fun with that John, but being the gentleman that I am . . .
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1103
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 06:14 am: |
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Thank, My Rantz. Yes, I, too, thought of Austin Powers....
All the best. |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 13
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 02:42 pm: |
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John A.,
I read with amusement the Ode to John A. and the repartee that followed.
I have only one DVD-A at the moment. It's a reissue of "Chicago II", you know, the one with "Colour My World" and "25 or 6 to 4." I bought it more out of curiosity than a need to replace my remastered CD. Even on my current home-theater-in-a-box, this DVD-A version opened my ears to details that I didn't realize were there. I can only imagine how it would sound like when I finally get my new HT system with the PSB Image lineup. I also had the opportunity to listen to the SACD of Dave Brubeck's "Time Out" at a store. Very impressive, but...
Back to this thread, is the Compact Disc in its twilight years? I beg to differ. IMHO, there are recordings that when remastered for the DVD-A or SACD format could expose the original recording's sonic limitations. The Dave Brubeck SACD "Time Out" is a perfect example. I thought the SACD sounded too wide and it spread out the playing rather thinly. Is it a remastering fault? Maybe. But recordings made in mono or during the infancy of stereo could end up sounding this way. I think collectors will shy away from the all-revealing DVD-A format for old recordings. Remember how some vinyl purists shunned the then nascent CD format, calling it a "cold medium?"
Whether DVD-A or SACD wins in this new format wars is inconsequential to me, personally. My belief is that the music comes first, the medium second. What I do lament these days is the increasing dearth of good music material. As a 40-something amateur jazz pianist wannabe, classic rock fan, and budget-constrained audiophile, I can only wish that there were more musically satisfying choices that are on DVD-A or even SACD, for that matter. For now, I'm content with remastered, 20-bit (whatever that means) CD reissues of the greatest albums of the last 40 years.
Maybe I'm getting old and I've crossed the line between the Then and Now, and thus, I'm suffering from this "generation gap." I hate to admit it, but I find it increasingly difficult to appreciate today's alternative rock choices. I tend to compare them with the Led Zep, Deep Purple and Beatles albums that I have. Thankfully, there are great new jazz albums that come out every so often. But I digress...
I respect your views on DVD-Audio and the enthusiasm you've shown in this particular forum. Keep posting. I'm listening.
Cheers! Enjoy your summer. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1477
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 04:42 pm: |
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Ojophile,
Thank you. A pleasure to read your post.
"My belief is that the music comes first, the medium second."
I agree totally. The first and highest priority of the medium is to get out of the way; to be transparent.
"Maybe I'm getting old and I've crossed the line between the Then and Now, and thus, I'm suffering from this "generation gap'."
One of the threads I like is Teaching and old dog new tricks.... When you get to a certain age, you no longer care what people think. The real subversives are on that thread, imho.
You keep posting, too, please, Ojophile. Whence the name....?
All the best. |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 14
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 05:31 pm: |
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John A.,
Hello again. Just woke up from a nice afternoon nap, an indulgence on Father's Day.
"Ojophile" is formed from my own initials OJO + "phile" to make it sound like "audiophile." But since the day I was born, I've always been known as 'Don'. I'd be honored if you called me by that name, too.
Am I in good company here? I just read "Teaching an old dog..." and saw Pink Floyd and Schubert. In "Ode to John A," there's mention of Dylan a.k.a. Zimmerman, Edgar Winter, and 'In-a-gadda-da-vida'? Quadrophonic? Yes, I remember those artists, titles, and fads! These days, I try to be cool by knowing at least the names of the bands that my 11-year old son listens to: Limp Bizkit, Sum 41, Linkin Park, Three Days Grace, etc.
When you get to a certain age, you no longer care what people think.
Amen. |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 16
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 05:52 pm: |
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To anyone who might want to know more about DVD's and DVD-A's, here's a no-frills, comprehensive text-only website:
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1479
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 10:59 pm: |
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Don,
Thanks. I only recognise the old bands/artists. Our boys like Red Hot Chillie Peppers and other things I cannot actually remember.
Excellent link. Thanks. DVD-Audio is there under What about DVD-Audio or Music DVD?. I think that link could usefully be posted somewhere at a high level on this board |
2muchmujik Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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It is definitley true that DVD-A is one hell of a music medium. The depth, soundstage and sheer richeness of the sound produced by DVD-A could knock-out the best CD recording available. I infact compared Eagle's Hotel California DVD-A and CD..and DVD-A was really something. Then I swicthed to DTS version provided on the DVD-A; somehow I found the DTS version much better sounding than DVD-A. Don't know whether any of you guys have reached the same conclusion i.e. comparison between MLP and DTS versions? Incidently DTS is also quitely eshtablishing itself in the multi-channel music race.
Whenever I go to a music store you find the DVD-A's stacked up in a small section. This scenario puts me off whenever I think of buying a DVD-A player. I enjoy listening to rock. The catalogue of the artist/bands available does not include any of the stuff that I listen to e.g. Alice in chains, Faith no more and more recently Tomahawk, Queens of the stone age etc. Till then, for me CDs are here to stay. |
New member Username: Rockroll_ninja
Post Number: 1
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 03:24 pm: |
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Uh huh. I feel fairly confident that thanks to anti-piracy concerns and industry inability to make up its mind on the next mainstream format (HDCD anyone?), CD will be around for another decade easy. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1642
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 08:32 am: |
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G Lundy,
"CD will be around for another decade easy".
Of course. Just like LP is still with us, two decades after everyone switched. I know people with whole libraries of Open-reel tapes, too. |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 22
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 06:38 pm: |
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"Make it and they will steal it," to paraphrase an old builder's slogan.
It didn't take long before the technology to copy audio and data CD's came out. The same is true with DVD duplication. Now, they are boasting of a real "dual-layer" duplication software.
DVD-A and SACD will continue to duke it out, much to the chagrin of prognosticators and much to the delight of audiophiles seeking a better alternative to the current CD format. In the end, we will all see a better format than the CD. And someone with the right technical skills and know-how will come out of the wings and proffer a duplication software. Much to the chagrin, this time, of the recording industry. A losing battle, isn't it?
CD will stay for another decade, sure, because there are old recordings, "classics" if you will, that do not need new technology to be enjoyed. They only need ears that know how to appreciate good recorded music. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1649
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 11:14 pm: |
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Don (aka Ojophile),
In my opinion you are correct. Copyright is unworkable. I think the recorded music industry is refusing to face the fact that it has to move on, and, to survive, needs to find and supply a product that people will wish to buy.
As a long-time collector of LPs and CDs, with discs bought, usually after some thought, and then kept, for decades, I think the industry undervalues the package it sells. You could never photocopy LP sleeves, with their gorgeous artwork. I have had people borrow my CD's and the booklet comes back with the spine broken, flattened in a photocopier, but it is not a sensible use of anyone's time to cut and trim the copy to make a neat booklet in a jewel case. The pirated DVDs I have come across are awful; no-one who likes movies would waste their time watching one, even for free. So I think "the industry" should use its economies of scale and manufacturing to mass-produce a quality product, and then let the market decide. The problem is, they are risk-averse; they want guaranteed sales. Why they think they are entitled to these is beyond me.
DVD-A is potentially such a quality product, and a good example of failure of nerve by the industry. The cases are bigger and more attractive than CD's; the booklets are bigger, and people who want to burn DVD-As in low-res formats only wish to do it to play on iPod or in their car - copying is not a threat to primary sales.
And, after all that, the musicians, with rare exceptions of super-popular groups, make very little from recording. For them, it is promotional material. The more people have of it, the better for them, because the more likely people are are to go to concerts. I do not know a real musician with serious intent in any genre who regards any one listening to his or her music as "theft". It is the middle-men who want to own both the producer and the consumer.
Good riddance, if that's their attitude, in my opinion. |
New member Username: Destro713
Chicago,
IL
U.S.A.
Post Number: 5
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 01:29 am: |
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"I do not think I shall ever buy another CD, unless there are special reasons."
What if there's an album that you want that doesn't happen to be one of the 700 DVD-A discs in circulation? Is that a "special reason?"
I find it rather disturbing that anyone would base their music listening decisions on delivery medium first, content second. I mean, c'mon... what would you rather read, a fantastic novel, or a trite novel that's printed on really fancy stock? |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1687
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 05:15 am: |
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Destro,
Thanks. Yes, that is a "special reason". Since I wrote that, I bought a 5-CD box of the complete Shostakovich String Quartets. It will be a long time before they come out in DVD-A, I think, and I want to get to know them, now.
Your book analogy is not good, imho. If you have novels printed clearly so you can concentrate in the content, others where you have to try to figure out what the author intended behind the fuzzy printing, it is not irrational to choose the former, just for that reason. There is a fantastic quantity of good music around these days. Starting with a recording format you like is starting, at least.
BTW I only discovered Shostakovich, very recently, because there was something of his I got on DVD-A, just because it was a DVD-A. I would never have made that step, otherwise. There is so much "choice" with CD, that there is no choice - they are all incompetition with each other, so they mostly make versions of the same thing. It is a bit like US TV channels, in my experience....
Also, there are great things not yet in the DVD-A catalogue. That is something to look forward to, don't you think....? |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 23
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 12:52 am: |
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It simply shows that John A. can have his cake and eat it, too.
When the CD became the de facto medium, I said to myself I would never buy another LP. I haven't done so in over 15 years. But it took that long to make me realize that many LP's will never make their transition to CD because (a) reissue producers don't see them as economically viable and feasible; (b) the surviving artists or their estate can not afford to produce the reissue; (c) the artists were one-hit wonders; (d) the old labels are long gone; and ergo, (e) so are the old master tapes.
Another reason I haven't bought another LP is that I no longer own a turntable. But someday, I will buy one again for the reasons I stated above. I have vinyl albums that will never be in the millions of CD's that are in circulation.
I'm sure John A. agrees with the rest of us that the music comes first, the medium second (I'm repeating myself here). |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1691
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 03:07 am: |
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Ojophile,
I am in total agreement.
My wife bought me "Blonde on Blonde" (Bob Dylan) a few years ago. A nice thought. She did not know it was an SACD (neither did the record dealer) and therefore we could not play it. About a month ago I bought that album on new vinyl LP (http://www.simplyvinyl.com/), my first LP purchase for about eighteen years, I think. Excellent. Fantastic quality pressing; better than they used to be. Original sleeve, too; every detail. I wish they would do "classical". Everyone agrees there is no market for new classical LPs, I don't know why. The old ones, in good condition, cost a fortune.
BTW there is one classical label called "Nimbus Records" which went in to receivership a year or two ago. Some of its employees bought it, complete with all its master tapes. Many were recorded in four-channel, for "ambisonics", which never happened. They plan to begin releasing them in a surround/hi res format. (I don't know which - I have told them my opinion!). Nimbus was first in, in UK, as an independent CD mastering company; they switched early. Their LPs were superb.
BTW there are some excellent new turntables around. The UK magazine HiFi News is very good for reviews etc. A lot of people, somewhere, are still listening to music on LP. |
Bronze Member Username: Kyle___berg
Post Number: 23
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 02:14 pm: |
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DVD-A...yum........ |
New member Username: Destro713
Chicago,
IL
U.S.A.
Post Number: 6
Registered: Jul-04
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| Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 12:04 am: |
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I guess the fundamental difference between me and John A. is that he listens to classical and I do not. Classical is much more details-oriented than virtually every other type of music, which makes its enjoyment much more dependent on fidelity. I have never, and probably will never, bought a piece of music because it sounds good on a technical level. I'd rather buy a standard, 16-bit CD of an album that I've been looking for than just pick up a DVD-A disc on a whim by an artist I'm not familiar with.
Also, I do have some issues with the fact that SACD's and DVD-A discs can basically only be played on home systems. There's so much more mileage to be squeezed out of a standard CD simply because they can be listened to virtually anywhere. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1710
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 06:32 am: |
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Destro,
Thanks. I listen to all sorts of music. I am not sure classical is necessarily so much more details orientated, but it is usually acoustic. The other thing about classical is you are not stuck with one particular group or performer, so you can choose on the basis of format, if you like.
I take your point about the versatiltiy of CD, also you can easily make an .mp3 or .aac version of a standard CD ( I have a son with 100s of CD tracks on an iPod). I think this will happen with DVD-A, too, but Sony-Philips have absolutely no intention of allowing consumers to edit and copy SACD files, have said so, and in fact I think this is the main point of SACD, but that's another subject. |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 444
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:48 am: |
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John A
The latest SACD's are hybrid ie: have the cd layers making what you believe is the main point of SACD a little far from reality and also making it an extremely versatile format as well. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1712
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 01:38 pm: |
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My Rantz,
Good point. Perhaps I am a bit behind with the latest developments. The first SACDs were stereo only, and "those guys" said they could not make hybrids - but it was a bid to get people to upgrade their collections, I think. Still the SACD format is far from versatile; it is the CD layer of those discs that you can copy, play in a car, etc. |
Larry R. Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:31 pm: |
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May a "newbie" chime in here a minute? I'm reading with pleasure and education your well-thought-out postings: quite a step up from another forum which I access. As a retired fine arts reporter, I know a lot about music, and NOT a lot about electronics. I DO know that a successor to the CD is desperately needed, but am not on any "soapbox" about which format. They both sound very good to me - mostly classical and opera for my wife and me (married 23 years!) But may I ask a technical question here? I have a new Onkyo 701 receiver, and am using Polk RTi6 speakers. AND a JVC XV-N55SL DVD/CD player - which appears to give really awful CD sound. Do any of you know about his animal - and what I might do? Looking forward. . . with pleasure. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 1718
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 02:41 pm: |
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