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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3435
Registered: Dec-03
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All the best, MR!
Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3437
Registered: Dec-03
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Hi, Art!

I searched the entire BBC Proms schedule for the something by Bax, but there is nothing.

Listened to Vaughan Williams symphony No.2 on the radio tonight . Pretty good. I have tickets for his No. 1 "A Sea Symphony" for Saturday. I have four recordings of that, at the last count, but have never heard it live before.

Having extolled that on various threads it is probably time to quit. But the words reach me, and so does the music. Sorry if this is the wrong thread. Had a tough day at the office.

Jan, Possibly like Art, I now feel unsafe on "Do you listen". I pass on "Seamless". Seems to me it means "without seams".

There is still some serious stuff on "Do you listen" but it is in danger of descending into psychotherapy.

Words have no essential, inner meaning; they mean what we intend them to. Provided the receiver uses them in the same way; and, so, understands our intention.

If I go into a hif shop and say "what I want from a pair of speakers is the tangible and palpable presence of a star soprano, the glint in her eye, the sense of the fullness of her,,, and a whiff of her ..." then I am talking rubbish. - And about myself. They should phone for help, and get me thrown out.

The lady sings. The job of our hifi is to deliver the sound of her voice.

The rest comes from our imaginations. You can't expect loudspeakers to supply that.

If they did, you and I would be amongst the first to object!
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Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1218
Registered: Feb-05
Edit Post

MR - I'm sorry to hear about yesterday's misery followed yet more of the same. Time will heal. As for my back still the same. To repeat, "time will heal". I hope.

John A - Amen! I'm still laughing from a couple of those lines...
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Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4531
Registered: May-04
Edit Post



John - I agree. If you went into a shop and said all that, they should look at you with a bit of suspicion in their eyes.

However, if you now have misgivings about another thread, wouldn't it make more sense to post those feelings on the other thread?


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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3441
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Jan,

Yes. Done. Thanks!
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Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio
US

Post Number: 365
Registered: Feb-04
Edit Post

My best to the injured dogs. Backs and teeth can be very troublesome things indeed.

And to KEGGER, the Ultimate Tinkerer!

Picked up a couple of CDs that might be interesting to the group:

WILLIAM WALTON (Naxos 8.553869) containing "Spitfire Prelude and Fugue", "Sinfonia Concertante" (1927 version), and "Hindemith Variations."

WILLIAM GRANT STILL (Naxos 8.559174) containing "Africa (Symphonic Poem)" and "Symphony No. 1."

Both are surprising, illuminating and enjoyable.
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Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1220
Registered: Feb-05
Edit Post

I own both of those discs and just listened to the Still disc the other day. The Walton disc is especially fun. Can't sit long enough to elaborate at this time.
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2525
Registered: Dec-03
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How the dog's doin on this fine day? Hello to all!


To all who see my pile of audio gear, about 50% of it needs work but I'm learning
a lot and starting to get some of my old techniques and smarts back when
it comes to fixing a lot of this stuff. Just finished two marantz units, a nice 2270
receiver and a 1060 integrated amp that had 1 blown channel where it took 2 outputs,
6 resistors and 1 other transistor. Man it's scary firing something like that up for
the first time after you've done all that work and hope you got everything so
it doesn't fry everything all over again!
But it works like a charm with no sparks and all voltages are holding.

Well back to the grindstone as they say. Haven't been selling a lot but I've been
told summer around these parts is collection time "garage sales and whatnot" then
you sell in the winter, which is fine it gives me time to fix up some gear while I'm
collecting from uncle sam! So for right now not a bad gig.

Later!

P.S. larry it's starting to get mighty cramped around here! LOL!
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Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio
US

Post Number: 367
Registered: Feb-04
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Kegman, if you have a girlfriend please make sure she's not a neat freak. :-)
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Gold Member
Username: Myrantz


The Land Dow...

Post Number: 2165
Registered: Aug-04
Edit Post

John S

Kegger hasn't any room for a girlfriend :-)

And thanks for your thoughts.


Kegger,

We're kidding about the girlfriend - she'll need to have a blind eye and be thin. LOL!

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Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1230
Registered: Feb-05
Edit Post

MR, it's good to see you posting again. I can sit for a few minutes at time so here I am. You should see me sneaking rest at work, it's hilarious. Then again I'm a State worker, some would argue that there is little difference between when we work and when we rest....it's not true but what the heck.
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Gold Member
Username: Myrantz


The Land Dow...

Post Number: 2166
Registered: Aug-04
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Art,

I am pleased you can maintain your sense of humour with those back problems. Keep up the good wor - er I mean rest. I'm feeling a lot better today - a couple more and I'll be fine except for the fact that I'll look like some poor old homeless person for a while.
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Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1086
Registered: Oct-04
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MR - Mer & I are still rooting for you - (oh, please forgive that pun!) And from the sounds of it, you're at least "on the mend." Sigh. I remember all too well when they took out my four wisdom teeth (and seemingly, all my wisdom!)
Very similar to what you describe.

If our "positive vibrations" mean anything, they let you know that we care. . .

Kegger: One of Mer's "missions" this week is to "minimalize clutter" in her studio. We're using your pictures as examples of possible "after" shots. (grin) That's how bad it is!

John A. - yes, sir, I'm sure I'd enjoy a LOT of what London has to offer. Really would. . .
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Gold Member
Username: Myrantz


The Land Dow...

Post Number: 2175
Registered: Aug-04
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Larry & Mer,

Those were 'good, good, good - good vibrations'

(That's the Beach Boys Larry) Thanks guys. The X-rays revealed a couple of those wisdom teeth still lurking up there in the gums. Planning future havoc no doubt. Take care.

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Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1087
Registered: Oct-04
Edit Post

MR - surprise! I actually knew about that Beach Boys song! (gasp!)

Still sending positive vibes your way - as we look out to our East, and see, way, way off in the distance - FRANKLIN! He's coming! But probably won't cross Florida to hit us - WE HOPE! This is a year to remember - or forget?

Take heart - you've got lots of "Dawgs" out here cheering you on. . .
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Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio
US

Post Number: 369
Registered: Feb-04
Edit Post

The 'willie' sound on "Good Vibrations" was made by the Theremin. There's a documentary titled Theremin - An Electronic Odyssey
Fascinating.
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Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio
US

Post Number: 370
Registered: Feb-04
Edit Post

Arnold Bax Symphony No. 3
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3458
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Thanks, John. Count me in. I'll look out for both the Chandos and the Naxos.

Art - you know this one already, I guess?
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Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1251
Registered: Feb-05
Edit Post

I will listen this weekend. I have both versions but will listen to the Chandos. I'm not one for listening to the same piece over and over.
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2528
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Hey Johnny I am now a KEF fan too!

Just picked up a pair of KEF c40's and these babies are great! They may be slightly
on the bright side but mated with the Sansui 5000x receiver they sound fantastic!

Picked em up real cheap with some other stuff to put together some package deals
but now this pair of speakers and the Sansui receiver aint goin nowhere, EVER!
They are a little on the light side, but! I got a pair of stands with them also and these
babies just plain rock! Party on Garth!
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3469
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Great stuff, Kegger!

I have heard "bright" before, but, if KEF is bright, give me bright.

Here's the link on that model:

http://www.kef.com/history/1980/c40.htm

Yes, they sold stands to go with them.
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2529
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Yah I've been to that link john I ecspecialy like the quote:

"The C40 is very reasonably priced for such a precisely engineered loudspeaker, considering the size of the cabinet. It goes exceedingly loud, handles plenty of power besides, and has generous bass delivery, so it will be particularly appealing to the cost-conscious rock listener."

That alone would peak my interest to hear them. I also don't believe just because the
c40 is a little bright that all the KEF speakers would sound this way it's just
this particular model is a little on the bright side, but not realy a bad thing in
my oppinion when mated with the right equipment that does not enhance this quality.

Overall an excelent sounding speaker for the type of music I listen to and the
equipment it is presently mated to. Very nice indeed!
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Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4610
Registered: May-04
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The C40's were among the first wave of KEF speakers modeled after the success B&W had enjoyed in the US after tailoring their sound to the American market. Both speaker lines began sounding more like JBL's than the polite BBC clones they had been for decades beforehand. John's KEF's (Coda's?) and my 3/5a's (with KEF drivers) would not even have DNA traceable to the C40.


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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2533
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Well that might explain it Jan as these are not a laid back speaker by no means
and more of a "loud" in your face type, like you say more like a JBL. But I do like them.

Not a fan of the Bic venturi formula II'S are we?
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3476
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

My Coda IIs might be in the same ballpark; I use them as surrounds. But the Corellis...

http://www.kef.com/history/1970/corelli.htm

I must try them with my PrimaLuna amp, one day.

Here's a nice link on KEF.

http://www.kef.com/allhistory.asp

Here is a current thread on speakers that seems to be in the wrong category:-

What Defines a "Reference" Loudspeaker?
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2534
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Interesting "What Defines a "Reference" Loudspeaker?" there John.

I see you still can't fathom the thought of using a speaker that sounds bad to make
a recording! As I said before I don't neccasarily condone it but I do understand it.

Anyway I agree it is a strange way to think.
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3480
Registered: Dec-03
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That's right Kegger - I cannot get my head round that. We had this sort of discussion on "Do you listen" when Jan said Mick Jagger used a car radio as a reference, or something. If you want the most accurate recorded sound of a car radio, you want to play it through a really good hi-fi; not through another car radio. Seems obvious to me! I know I am in a minority on this!
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3481
Registered: Dec-03
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By the way, Kegger, I thought that guy's "Sound on Sound" link was good. It brought up the Yamaha "Near Field" monitors I so much enjoyed reading Jan's posts on...! Priceless; still chuckling about those. You are all right with KEF, Kegger. They are not saying "only for rock" - they are saying, sort of, if you like it loud with good bass extension as well general sound quality, look what good value these are. They'd probably do Mahler OK as well.
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2535
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

OH I know John I know a little about speakers and understand that if there good
they will work well on many types of music. I just meant had I read that caption
when looking for speakers they would of peaked my interest to look at them as it
sounded like by there description that it may be a speaker that leans towards my
preferences "plus" would lend it's hand in the reproduction of music I enjoy.

Did not take it as "these are for rock" but more of if you listen to rock these
may be someting you'd like to check out as they do other things well to but for
the cost consious rocker you may want to give them a listen as there loud/effecient
with a good bass extension. Heck
that description sounds good to me, would probably peak MY rantz's interest also!
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3537
Registered: Dec-03
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Some recent posts are missing. Last one visible is from Kegger Monday, July 25, 2005 - 03:20 pm. This is a test. I came here to reply to his post (e-mail notification) Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 04:50 pm. It is not here! Anyone else have this problem?
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Moderator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 576
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

In our attempt to cleanup the offensive postings, it appears some valid posts were inadvertently removed from this thread. I apologize.
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3540
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Thank you, admin. I think it is a price worth paying, personally. Regulars here probably still have the e-mail notifications.
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Unregistered guest
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Thanks Admin


John you asked a question about a tripod on an unlevel surface. You were interested in the male/female approach to the problem, I think. I can't find the post. This thread has a chunk missing so I'll reply here.
A reason for the tripod configuration would be because you need stability and the ground isn't level. The classic example is for a camera. But your interest is in the different ways men and women approach the problem. Is that correct?
Men tend to be left brained and women tend to be right brained( very broad generalization ). Men collect the pertinent facts and make conclusions. Item A + B + C = ? A fast process. Women collect facts from the big picture and then eliminate what doesn't apply. Item A + F + M + C + G + B then process leaving A+B+C= ? A longer process but a very through one. No value judgement here just a difference. Equally valid. Yin/yang. :-)

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Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4748
Registered: May-04
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Oh! Yin/yang. Very nice!!!
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Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

Take the Eh Train

Post Number: 320
Registered: Jun-04
Edit Post

I thought I'd post this item for anyone who might be interested.

Just received an e-mail from AVguide.com saying that they now offer all their online content for free.

http://www.avguide.com/index.jsp
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2553
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Well it is a little clearer on here! Man was that guy just an idiot with no care
for anyone else but his own sick humor! Looser!
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2554
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Back to the girlfriend thing there that MY Rantz and John s. were saying.

"she'll need to have a blind eye and be thin"

Blind and thin, that's fine with me, sounds like she wouldn't get in the way of my work!
Now if she was mute to then we would really have something.
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Ok just kidding with the girlfriend thing I don't mean to deragde any women or offend
anyone, just poking a little fun and hope others can understand.




















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Unregistered guest
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Kegger Kegger Kegger

The woman you discribe...
has ears....that's good. She can hear the results of your work. But being mute she will have to write her responces...too much reading.
She can't see the beauty of your restorations...would have been nice feedback.
She is thin, the better to move around freely in the cramped space.. that's good.
You get to choose your ideal woman, of course, but it seems to me that a whole fully functional woman would be a better choice. :-)

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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2555
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Margie good point, I didn't think of the reading thing, darn it!

Well back to the drawing board, maybe I'll have to watch wierd science to get some tips.

LOL!
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Unregistered guest
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Wierd Science......excellent!!

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Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4780
Registered: May-04
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" ... it seems to me that a whole fully functional woman would be a better choice."



Didn't they use that exact phrase in Stepford County?





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Unregistered guest
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Scary....I didn't see Stepford.

Am I channeling a troubled spirit?

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Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4781
Registered: May-04
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As they say in Stepford, Margie, we'll never tell.
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Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio
US

Post Number: 397
Registered: Feb-04
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By the way, this looks interersting:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Apr05/Blake.htm
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3605
Registered: Dec-03
Edit Post

Yes, it does, John, Thank you. Those events dominated the 20th Century. It is impossible to understand many aspects of our culture and times, including the aims of composers of many kinds, without them. There are people still living who remember WWI, and who served in WWII. We have the recent 60th anniversary of the end of that. Many of the Old Dogs generation feared WWIII. It has not happened. Yet.

The original question that started this thread was Jan's

"As an aside, am I the only one who thinks music almost always sounds better when you listen just in stereo. How old I feel."

I think this question and related ones are now more actively discussed on other threads. Probably they will repeat some of the issues discussed here.

For example, Do you listen under "Speakers" and Which way to spend under "Receivers".

I shall be happy to continue, here, or to chime in on those threads, if I can.

WIth the hindsight of this thread, "Which way to spend" seems to me to confound many separate issues. For example, one does not have to reject networking of digital audio files if one enjoys and values tube/valve amplification.

The real issue, it seems to me, is telling the difference between what is really new and potentially useful from what is hype and already planned to be obsolete in a few years' time. As regards music, downloading files is here, now, and seems to be more and more what people want. It is a separate issue from resolution and from number of channels; you can copy and stream high-res audio files if you want, and have the bandwidth and storage space. Even the current iTunes will handle 5.1 DTS without loss if set up correctly. Couple this with "Podcasting" and we really are looking at a revolution in the capabilities we have for playing recorded music. Which of these will last is anyone's guess, and should up to us: the listeners; the customers.

The market is being led at the moment by a priority for number of "Songs" or files as against sound quality, but it does not have to be that way. One member of my family has just played a classic "Who" album from MP3 files made from the (legally purchased!) CD, through iTunes and a wireless network, to our Primaluna Prologue amp and Quad ESL speakers. It sounded pretty good. I'd prefer the CD and, even more, the LP. But with some hardware and software I am sure I could make a digital copy of the LP indistinguishable from the original, and beam it to the audio hardware without loss of quality. All the evidence I see is that this is what the recording industry is bent on preventing; and many of the recent "innovations" are mostly disguised attempts to prevent people sharing music.

Also, the stereo vs surround question will sort itself out in due course, I am sure.

I also value the separate discussions of music that have spun off from this thread. Re-creating musical performance is the real aim and purpose of hifi, at least for me. I continue to think that live broadcast is under-rated, compared with playback of recordings, both as regards sound quality and as regards the shared experience of the actual performance.

Somehow it seems the world is moving away from music, not closer to it; technology is becoming a barrier, not a bridge. This prompts me to write "How old I feel". But it could be me. I am never quite sure about that. Other people may have a different view. As I wrote earlier, who knows if the creative musicians of the 21st century are not now forming their dreams and inspirations from ripped, shared, MP3 files, played through headphones? Stranger things have happened.
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Gold Member
Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3606
Registered: Dec-03
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PS, Jan, before you ask (again!), I can certainly copy that to "Which way to spend", but I doubt it will be well received, there. I am still nursing bruises from my attempts to express the view that music is real, and the whole point, on "Do you listen". People agree with that, mostly, if asked. But many still seem reject - sometimes angrily - the notion that there is, or was, somewhere, once, a live performance, that speakers (like subwoofer cables) have nothing to do with it, and that the most our audio technology can ever hope to do is to make a credible copy of that real event.
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Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio
US

Post Number: 404
Registered: Feb-04
Edit Post

Thanks John for your thoughtful and erudite (as always) post.

One of this book's angles is the gramophone's good and evil role as public morale booster on one hand, and as a propaganda delivery system on the other. I've never been a conspiracy theorist, so the thought seems foreign to me. After all wasn't the original reason for the thing the re-creation of sound? Maybe the book gives more due to the gramophone than it deserves. I'd like to read it, but it is not available on this side of the pond yet. Here are two paragraphs from different reviewers:

"Despite the descriptive title, I did not really know what to expect when I started to read this book. In fact I found it to be one of the most fascinating books I had come across for a long time. The gramophone record was born in 1898 at about the same time as the US went to war over Cuba. For the first time records were used for morale-boosting patriotic purposes to aid warfare."

"The book has a wide remit: to capture not only the spirit of the times discussed, place historical events in context, explore economic and political factors, but also to capture the domestic and propagandistic role of the gramophone in the heyday of the development of acoustic, cylinder, 78, 45 and up to early LP formats. You get a real sense of the gramophone at the very heart of things, held in high esteem by parties of all political and social persuasions to spread the message, boost morale, yet provide solid entertainment catering to public demand. Whilst each of these concerns is dealt with in turn, in addition a sense of the personalities both on and behind the recordings comes through. Extracts from diaries and memoirs aid Blake’s task here, particularly with regard to Fred Gaisberg of HMV."


*********************

"The real issue, it seems to me, is telling the difference between what is really new and potentially useful from what is hype and already planned to be obsolete in a few years' time."

Well, time does have a habit of marching on and all things become obsolete eventually, planned or not. There's always going to be sizzle and hype, because it's all about the money. This may be naïve, but I don't think anybody plans obsolescence for the future, mainly because it's all about the money right now. But you are right, the internet file sharing phenomena will render the traditional record label business model obsolete, thanks to the digital age we now live in.

The real problem is, and always has been, the relatively small number of people who actually listen to and love music. Most people use music as background mood setter or worse, as a social status enhancer. I cannot prove this bleak outlook with statistics, it's just my opinion. How've sales on high-resolution audio music been going lately?

"Also, the stereo vs surround question will sort itself out in due course, I am sure."

Yes, as was the case with the mono vs stereo question. I remember my father, an audiophile of limited means, grousing about stereo many years ago. "Next thing you know, they'll be putting speakers in all four corners." Not long after that, I watched as he soldered together his first stereo Dynakits. This was back when "soundstage" was two words and not a cliché. (For a while in those days, one paid $1 extra for the "Living Stereo" edition vs the mono disc. And of course it was nothing but a conspiracy to make more money.)

"Re-creating musical performance is the real aim and purpose of hifi, at least for me. I continue to think that live broadcast is under-rated, compared with playback of recordings, both as regards sound quality and as regards the shared experience of the actual performance."

Isn't accurate sound reproduction always been the holy grail of any audiophile? And isn't the live performance the model for that? I know this has been discussed in Jan's "Do You Listen" thread, but the issue seems just that simple and crystal clear to me. Yet how many audiophiles achieve that end? Does anyone have the means to recreate th