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Thread: Archive through June 29, 2005 |
    
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1930
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 04:27 pm: |
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"How can switching preset stations on the TUNER affect the AMP left channel...?"
Stop listening to the socialist broadcasts LOL! |
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Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1168
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 04:56 pm: |
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Very good Rantz, very good. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 3955
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 07:10 pm: |
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If the problem never occurs when the tuner is plugged into the Sony, the problem has to be in the PrimaLuna. The best guess I can make is a bad contact that reacts to a small shift in voltage. At the price range of the amp I am going to assume it is a purely mechanical switch. If the contacts of the switch are not making good contact, the result is much like a dirty contact. A diode effect is created where signal is not passed until the contact is restored. This is quite strange and not a common occurence, but it wouldn't appear to be much else if the signal can be restored by "jiggling" the switch contacts. It may be a bad switch, it may be nothing more than a dirty switch. It could possibly be a cold solder joint at the connection to the switch itself acting as the diode. But if a bit of voltage change will cause the problem and a clean contact will restore it, in a mechanical switch I can't think of any other reason for this to happen.
If the switch is purely electrical and only controlled by the position of the switch, then the problem would be in that circuit.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3183
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 01:04 pm: |
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That's really good, Jan. I was thinking vaguely in that direction, but you are streets ahead, as usual. I have not encountered this sort of problem before, and will take it up with the dealer. The signal is perfect, and stable, after jiggling the control, just once. Also it is "all or none"- there is no intermediate position with any sort of degraded sound. I think our friends MR and Rick are getting political, again... I will take a closer look at the switch when I take the unit apart. BTW there is none of this "voids the warranty", "no customer-serviceable parts inside" nonsense, in fact there are directions about how to get in there to replace a fuse etc. should the need arise. I understand the phono card accessory even requires soldering in. Good. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 3983
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 05:01 pm: |
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Rick - Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about fans. There is no truly quiet fan that I know of. The best option I've found is to run a 220-240 volt fan off of 110-120 volts. This knocks the speed down to half and the noise with it. Since it only requires a bit of air circulation to make a noticeable difference this is usually the best solution. You will do best having the air drawn across the tubes by placing the intake side of the fan at the top of the tubes and exhaust the heat away from the tubes. It is far less efficient to use the exhaust side against the tubes. I put an inline switch on my fans and turn them off when I am listening to anything where the small amount of noise might intrude.
I deal with a local outlet of a company called Graingers for products like this. They may not have stores in your exact area, but they have 17 locations in New York. Start there and see if they can help further.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml
With the proliferation of computer fans on the market, I don't see why you can't take an exhaust fan designed for a computer and run it off a wall wart type transformer to knock the volatge down to what you need. Probably any computer shop with a DIY department can help you there. Kegger may also have some resources in this area.
http://www.1coolpc.com/
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 3990
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 12:29 am: |
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Has anyone heard from Kegger? |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1957
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 01:05 am: |
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I was just thinking the same thing - I hope he hasn't electrocuted himself!
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2477
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 02:26 am: |
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Sorry guy's just a quick one right now to let everyone know I'm alive! THANKS!
Were experiencing power outages here lately. I don't want to plug much in
it's been going on for 5 days now! And I've been trying to fix some things
around here since I could use the money and have all the time in the world.
"Won't get into that last bit right now" But I've got plenty o time! |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1959
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 03:45 am: |
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Oh no - not bad news I hope Kegger. Get back when you can. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1170
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 09:08 am: |
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Oh no Kegman! A temporary situation I hope....... |
Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1171
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 09:10 am: |
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Jan,
Thanks for the info. I'll let you know what I do. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3196
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 03:48 pm: |
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I now have the new PLPL2. I am quite sure the old one got better during the two weeks I had it. If the dealer uses it for demos, they gained something from my home trial... I shall evaluate the new one. Plus the mains cable and the white gloves. I will also look for the map of Italy. I did not have time to ask about power cables. Will do this at another time.
There seems to be a growing number of tube-output CD players. For example, there is a Jolida JD-100 reviewed in July "HiFi News". |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1966
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 05:29 pm: |
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Congratulations John, I hope you have many years of musical pleasure with the PLPL2 and we'll look forward to a 'glowing' report.
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Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 625
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 07:01 pm: |
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Kegger,
Good to hear you're still around.
John A.,
Sorry for the late reply. I've experienced no crosstalk problem or channel dropping out with the PL, but then again I don't have a tuner hooked up to it. The PL has been foolproof for even this fool thus far. Hope yours delivers an equal measure of satisfaction.
All the best. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3197
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 01:01 am: |
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Thanks MR. Thanks also, 2c. They said in the shop that they really only ever hook up one input, so would not have heard crosstalk between input channels. As I said, it is a glitch I can live with. Before I took it back, I had the inputs: CD; Tuner; Aux 1 for TV; Aux 2 for Airport Express Base Station. My dear old FM tuner works well, but picks up RF from both of the Auxiliary sources, and also some noise from the CD player. This is not an amp issue. It could be the antenna I am using. Absence of interference will be one of the advantages of digital radio, I expect.
It is always sobering to visit that dealer. They had Acoustic Research 200 monoblocks on display, apart from every McIntosh I have ever heard of and many exotic brands I have only ever seen pictures of, in magazines. The AR are 200 W tube power amps, making the PL look puny. Mrs A came with me and was incredulous that people have so much money to spend on "absurdly ugly" equipment... (She still questions my sanity over the PL, but my word does it sound better than the Sony ES, to which I reverted, briefly, while the PL was in transit - what a contrast) |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3209
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 02:16 am: |
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I have opened the box and installed the new PrimaLuna PL2. After some days back with Sony ES, I can be completely sure that all amps do not sound the same (Gregory?). And it is not subtle. "...But some are more equal than others" does not apply.
And the PL wins, hands down. No question. Huge improvement.
No glitches so far. I have not checked for channel crosstalk yet, but the stereo is stable on Tuner input.
I am also now the proud owner of a pair of white gloves. However, no manual. Nor map of Italy. Also; it came with a serious-looking power cable with a continental European plug, requiring use of an adapter here, where we have superior, square-pin plugs with fuses, though the same basic supply (~230V at 50 Hz). The box appeared to be unopened, and also contained three spare internal fuses. Nice.
The amp itself has different tubes/valves: they now have "PrimaLuna KT88" etc. etched, or maybe printed, on the glass, and look somewhat different. I should have made note of the previous ones. They are definitely different. Also wrapped differently, each having its own sheath of foam, on delivery. No manual means someone, somewhere, might just use the amp with the foam wraps still in place. That would be serious.
Speaking of valves, there is manic review of "EAT" ("European Audio Team" - 'strewth) KT88s in July HiFi News. Made in Czech Republic. £288 per matched pair.... Wonder of these are those?
That's about it. Fabulous amp. Wonderful sound. Recommended. I'll chase the dealer about the manual, an essential item.
Thanks again, friends. Count me in.
I must repeat that I have not compared the PL2 with any solid state amp of similar price, so cannot be completely sure, from my own experience, that this is a tube phenomenon. But I'd wager it is, and can honestly report the sound is blo*dy marvellous, for whatever reason.
Who'd have thought it....? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2479
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 02:31 am: |
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Good stuff John welcome to the family!
Rantz where's yours?
And Larry how bout you? |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1980
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 03:43 am: |
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Kegger
No, I won't be joining the 'Tube" family I'm afraid, in my solid state life's just to darn good to risk going downhill. [grin]
Hope things are okay for you Kegger????
John,
You probably feel like I do at present: the B&W's are run in and the collusion between them, the DVD-2900 and the SR-7300 has created sound so sublime it's almost surreal. If I change anything, it may be the Sr-7300 for the SR-8500 but it would have to rain money for that occurrence. Enjoy!
I thought Larry would be back by now - hope everything is okay in his camp. Larry - talk to us!
Rick - are you lost in Orlando. Should we send out the air-boats or something?
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1176
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 06:29 am: |
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Hi All,
I'm still in New York. The Barnes family has been crazy busy the past few weeks. The house is about to go on the market. We will be residents of Orlando in the very near future. Do you think I'll be hot in that Goofy suit this time of year?
Thanks Rantz!
John,
Welcome to the club, and many hours of sublime listening. Cheers!
Kegger,
Is everything OK?
Stay well everyone................back to you soon.
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4060
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 09:34 am: |
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Rick - You get to play Goofy or be Goofy? |
Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1177
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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According to my youngest daughter, both. LOL! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4065
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Better that than Scrooge McDuck! |
Silver Member Username: Joe_c
Oakwood,
Ga
Post Number: 415
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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Jan have you seen the new tube surround amp from akai?? if so what do you think? |
Silver Member Username: Joe_c
Oakwood,
Ga
Post Number: 416
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 01:27 pm: |
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I read about it in my ht magazine and have not heard anything since, here's a link to the articlehttp://news.designtechnica.com/featured_article16_page6.html |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4067
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 03:52 pm: |
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"One of the most unique audio products introduced at CES was AKAI’s new AVR8500 ($899) and AVR8510 ($1,199) 7-Channel Vacuum Tube Audio/Video Receivers. Using its patented “Blue Tube Thermionic” design, it brings the “warm” sound of tube technology down to realistic price levels. Both receivers use 7 Dual Triode Vacuum tubes (one for each amplifier). Except for the included amplification and a universal remote on the 8510, both models include identical features. Model AVR8500 is rated at 100-watts x 7, and model AVR8510 is rated at 125-watts x 7. Besides including all current surround sound modes from both DTS and Dolby, both models also include HDMI switching capability."
***************************
"7 Dual Triode Vacuum tubes (one for each amplifier)" means a small signal triode such as a 12AX7 or 6DJ8 placed in the signal path somewhere. Hopefully. Many years ago Luxman had two integrated amplifiers in the mass market that boasted tubes in the circuit. Luxman was well known in the high end for their earlier tube amplifiers which had been designed by Tim deParravinci. Since Lux had decided the modern consumer didn't want to deal with tube aging or reliability problems they placed the tubes outside of the signal path. The front panel of the amplifier had a small window where you could see the tubes glowing, but they did nothing more than that.
For the price and features projected these are bipolar transistor amplifiers that are more than likely full of IC's. So without hearing them, I don't think too much of this game Akai is choosing to play. This might be good news to anyone who remembers Akai as a state of the art tube based open reel tape deck. But it would appear to be trading on a name and reputation where most buyers in the HT market probably have no memories to fuel.
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Silver Member Username: Joe_c
Oakwood,
Ga
Post Number: 417
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 04:47 pm: |
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So in your opinion the tubes are really on the signal side if at all and not on the power side? Considering there are 100-125 watts of power for each tube, there must be something fishy going on huh? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2480
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 04:48 pm: |
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I agree JAN completly but reserve some hope for the unit and people who may be interested.
I'm wondering/hoping if maybe the preamp section is using like a 12at7 or 6922
per channel then if it had preamp outs you'd have a 7.1 prepro that was tube in
it's amplification and you could externally amplify if it had preamp outs like
most units nowadays do, that would be cool and something I'd be very interested in!
I'm trying to find out more about it.
Having tubes in the preamp and solid state in the amp section is not all that bad
considering what else you could do with the right inputs and outputs! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2481
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 05:06 pm: |
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Joseph what Jan is saying is that the tubes might just be there for looks and
not really doing anything or they could be in the preamp section which would be GOOD!
Then there using solid state in the main amp section to get the 100-125 watts.
IT's not that uncommon for an amp to have tube in the preamp section and solid state
in the amp section. You still get tubes in the signal path but get more power and
and less heat by using solid state in the amp section.
I prefer tubes in all sections but I see how if this product is designed right that
they may have a nice comprimise. An all tube amp output is very very hot and you would
not want to enclose that in a reciever case that would be the reason for the small signal
tubes being used inside and solid state for final amplication.
There are many hibrid amps and some integrated amps that use tubes in the first stage
of amplification and solid state in the final but this would be the first surround
reciever that I have heard of if that's the case. |
Silver Member Username: Joe_c
Oakwood,
Ga
Post Number: 419
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 05:23 pm: |
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be nice if this thing has some quality, love to get my hands on a tube surround amp for under a grand. Especially if it's warm AND powerful. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2482
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 05:30 pm: |
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Joseph Agree 100% with that statement! Could be the start of a new era? Let's hope! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4068
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 05:47 pm: |
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I can only imagine what a seven channel (125 watt per) tube power amplifier would weigh with seven very large output transformers. The shipping costs from anywhere to your door would be the cost of these receivers.
And the heat ... WOOODOGGIES!!!
We'll have to wait to see more information, but I'm guessing the tubes do little to nothing to the signal. There will still be s.s. rectification and all the signal processing will be done by chip technology.
OK, here I go taking a deep breath.
ihopekeggerfindssomethingoutsoonican'tdothisforlong.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2483
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 05:57 pm: |
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At the moment Jan I don't find much info, you better start breathing!
We may need yu farther darn the road there pal! |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1982
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 06:46 pm: |
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Better call 911! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4072
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 08:22 pm: |
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OHMYGOD!!!!!
That's much better. Things were beginning to spin.
wheeze ..... rattle .... wheeze ..... rattle
OK, I wait patiently with baited breadth.
(Shall we all go there again?)
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Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3211
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 07:00 am: |
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It probably safer just to sit on the edge of your seat, Jan.
I suppose one could get a tube 5.1 pre-amp (Copland, for example, make one) and then three tube stereo power amps. Or six monoblocks. It would get expensive. Also one should check one's fire insurance.
Let me go into "buy what I did" mode and suggest a PrimaLuna integrated stereo tube amp or an equivalent from another maker is a better way to spend a grand - even for movies. Dialogue is crystal clear. With good speakers there are surprisingly good surround effects on movies, even when the actual source is only two speakers, in front of you. If you really want to pin-point the exact position of a circling helicopter at any time, then go for 5.1 or more. But the general impression is all most sane people require.
And there are other things about movies, like can you hear the words, and does it move you?
Anyway, joseph, you could just get three stereo amps, as long as you have all the processing you need in the DVD player.
Unlike Jan, I am not against surround, but it is a small bonus for what it costs. Much better to get decent stereo, in most cases. That is my view, now.
BTW dealer massively helpful with missing PrimaLuna owner manual, not to mention apologetic. His problem was the distributor shipped the manuals, previously, separately from the units, and the serial numbers did not correspond. He was assured they had fixed that, and the corrrect manual would now be in the box, which he probably guessed, correctly, I would now prefer "as is". I assume they print manuals in different languages for different European markets. I shall write and point out my manual is in US English. One can so easily tell the difference with a valve/tube amp.... ("Vacuum tube" still seems a silly name, to, me, suggesting "Hoovers", or the thing a dentist uses to remove saliva from your mouth).
Dealer also provided, free, a replacement power cord with UK plug, fitted with 5A fuse. I will change it to 3A. Dealer also keen to know if channel breakthrough still there in new model. Will try it, and let him know.
And you! |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1983
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 07:13 am: |
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"But the general impression is all most sane people require."
I'll make an appointment tomorow John.
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1179
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 08:46 am: |
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There is only one known cure, guarded by a select group. LOL! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
London
U.K.
Post Number: 3212
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 08:53 am: |
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Book me in too, please, MR.
BTW five tube monoblocks would be enough. Unless one wants tube power in the sub, too. I will still wager 4.0 is good. When we have some more room and time I will try it. If it works, two stereo tube amps (or four monoblocks) would be enough for all-tube surround sound.
Please call the sanity inspector, someone. He has lots to do on this thread. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
Warren,
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2484
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 01:31 pm: |
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Joseph Listening to the ramblings of the insain here will make you go crazy! LOL!
If this unit or something simular turns out to be a decent unit using tubes in the
preamp section if you wanted a good setup for stereo out of it you just run a tube
amp or a pair of mono blocks on the front channels using the preamp outs. Then
you'd have a tube preamp with tube amp output running your main speakers.
Speaking from experience with an all tube amp 7.1 surround "except sub"! It sounds
really nice but I believe it is overkill and that all 4 of your rear speakers don't need
nor do you really hear a difference being tube powered, tubes in the preamp section
would be just fine. Not to mention the space they take up and the HEAT created!
If I got a unit like one of these were talking about and it truly did what we hope I
would run it this way. Use the internal amps on all the surround spkr's and run my
tube amps on the left right and center channels outputs for all 3 accross the front
running high quality tube amps. You could use the internal amps to maybe do the
biamp thing with solidstate adding some extra bass and or use the center channel
solid state output to run a sub on your center channel.
If your planning on using this for movies then for me 7.1 is awsome when setup the
right way and utilizing the correct gear. The extra rear channels give you the ability
to use a pair of speakers just behind the listening area and to the side then you run
a pair of rears behind you which gives you the full effect of what the surround can offer.
Also I can't stress this enough your center channel speaker needs to match your front
speakers as close as possable and be of good size (at least 6.5" drivers) to be able to
carry a large portion of the frequecy spectrum adaquitly plus provide some bass. Wimpy
center channels don't cut it anymore, there is to much dynamics in the digital surround
domain these days not to mention what sacd/dvd-audio provide. |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1984
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 03:46 pm: |
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"Also I can't stress this enough your center channel speaker needs to match your front
speakers as close as possable and be of good size (at least 6.5" drivers) to be able to
carry a large portion of the frequecy spectrum adaquitly plus provide some bass. Wimpy
center channels don't cut it anymore, there is to much dynamics in the digital surround
domain these days not to mention what sacd/dvd-audio provide."
Kegger's so right on about this point. Also imho, unless one has all speakers with a huge frequency range (down to the low 30hz's) then a good sub is also important - not only for movies but for music - especially the hi-res formats.
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1180
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 04:21 pm: |
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I'm getting dizzy............. I think I'm going to pass out............................... |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1986
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 05:19 pm: |
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Rick
No one here is going to give you mouth to mouth - so forget it!
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4081
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 05:54 pm: |
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Oh, Lord! I smell surround sound. Who did that? EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!! |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1987
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 06:11 pm: |
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Jan,
If you smell surround sound then I suggest your breathing problem stems from blocked ears. Also, if you find reading is becoming more difficult, try opening your mouth a little wider.
I told you the radiation from your tube amp will affect your metabolism!
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1181
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 06:34 pm: |
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Forgive them Jan, for they know not what they do......... You have spoken the gospel according to 2 channel and tubes, but no-INFIDELS! Are we going to drag all this over here too? Jan help me. I just don't have the strength........ |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
The Land Dow...
Post Number: 1988
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 07:09 pm: |
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My apologies
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Gold Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 1182
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 07:37 pm: |
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Accepted......LOL! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4089
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 07:49 pm: |
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Awwww, Man, light some matches or something! |
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