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Thread: Ring of the Lings, Part 3- Quinn's turn |
    
New member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 7
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 08:50 pm: |
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Where to start......hmmm.
I started off with Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth since Eddie was liking male voices on the Lings. Quite nice. The bass is very impressive on the Lings. On the 2nd song the male choral kicks in and is very nice and rich.
I switched to Fairfield Four's Standing in the Danger Zone. Track 6 has a bass voice that is joined by the other four members in harmony. I've heard some speakers where all four voices are separate in this harmonization and consider this track a though test. With the Lings you could tell there were different voices harmonizing but each voice wasn't quite distinct. The other thing I noticed was it sounded like half was coming out of one speaker the the other half the other speaker not a nice united soundstage. Loved the richness of the male voices thru the Lings. With the Ascend's you can tell there are multiple voices coming from dead center. I'd give the Ling's an edge on voice separation in the harmonizing.
Switched to Jane Monheit- Taking a Chance on Love- as I knew it has lots of stand-up bass and the duet with Michael Buble. Nice full bass. Good rich tone to Buble's voice. Decay of notes seemed fairly immediate. No soundstage. Both Monheit and Buble we coming out the the right speaker not center stage like with the Ascends. The speakers were very localized/locateable and the music was easy to discern which speaker was playing it. No illusion of stage left, right, and center.
On to Norah Jones- Come Away with Me- with The Lings. What happened? Why does it sound like I'm sitting in the last row of the balcony? Where are the brushes on the drums, the breathes being taken, and some of the fingers sliding on strings? Why is there no decay to the notes?
So, I need to tweak positioning and see if that is where my imaging problems lie. Some recordings where very nice others not so good. I'm intrigued by the variations in what I'm getting and look foward to listening more. |
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Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1117
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 09:36 pm: |
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Keep at at Man !
I wonder why you gave an edge to the Ling's on Fairfield Four if they didn't image at all? |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4863
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 09:52 pm: |
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" I've heard some speakers where all four voices are separate in this harmonization and consider this track a though test. With the Lings you could tell there were different voices harmonizing but each voice wasn't quite distinct. The other thing I noticed was it sounded like half was coming out of one speaker the the other half the other speaker not a nice united soundstage. Loved the richness of the male voices thru the Lings. With the Ascend's you can tell there are multiple voices coming from dead center. I'd give the Ling's an edge on voice separation in the harmonizing."
This doesn't seem to make sense. If there was better separation of the individual voices with other speakers and placement problems of the performers with the Lings, why would you give the edge to the Lings?
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New member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 8
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 10:33 pm: |
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I guess I give them an edge because there is a bit more separation of the voices with the Lings. I do not give them an edge in imaging.
I think it may also be the very warm timbre the Lings bring to male voices that I'm finding appealing in their sound.
Give me some more time tomorrow when I can be a bit more relaxed in listening. |
Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 17
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
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what? you are not going to listen through the night? |
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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Boo! Horrible review! Send them to Jan!!!! |
New member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 10
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
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I would if I didn't have the kids. Eddie's been in our house. It is pretty much all open to everything. I knocked off at 8 to get the kids down. |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 11
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Hey anonymous give me time tomorrow to play with positioning. It could all well be a matter of set-up. |
Silver Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 553
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:16 pm: |
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Dont listen to Anon he is just messing with you. |
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Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 18
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:16 pm: |
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Anonymous is probably Jan.  |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4876
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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Nope! |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4882
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
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I would like to make it clear, with the various posts on the Ling threads, that I am not making the posts. For the record, I can't even spell "anonymous" .... well, whadda ya know? Anyhows, I am not anon and he is not I!
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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I couldn't have said it any better. |
Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 23
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
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Then is anon here to cause trouble? |
Silver Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 559
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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All the time,thats his Motto. |
Gold Member Username: Edster922
Abubala,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 1448
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 07:31 pm: |
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Actually I think that "Anonymous" is more than one person. One of the most vexing oddities about the Ecoustics forum software is that not only does it NOT require registration (the only audio forum I know of which does not) but it allows ANYBODY whether registered or not, to post as "Anonymous" simply by clicking on the "Post as Anonymous" checkbox.
Why in God's name they designed the software with these gaping loopholes we'll never know... |
Gold Member Username: Artk
Albany,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 1426
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 07:54 pm: |
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There are a number of audio forums that allow unregistered guests to post. Others usually require you to have a username and they monitor the conversations a little more closely. Unfortunantely I have not found one as spontaneous as this one, and god knows I've been looking. |
Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1140
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 08:03 pm: |
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Consideing the abuse we witnessed earlier, it's surprising that it's still like that. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4904
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 08:22 pm: |
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Post your comments here:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/22/152204.html |
Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1144
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 08:51 pm: |
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Just did.
Thanks for the reminder about that thread... |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 13
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 09:33 pm: |
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I've had the kids solo for 13 hours today so no critical listening today.
A little toe-in did a lot for my imaging issues.
Hope to get to play tomorrow.
BTW- All my listening has been on my 2-channel rig which is an Audio Refinement Complete Alpha integrated and and Audio Refine CDP. The original Audio Refinement Complete is a Stereophile recommended component, class B. I have the improved Alpha version. |
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| Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 09:56 am: |
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Thank you Quinn. I'm listening. |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 14
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 12:33 am: |
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My findings are pretty much the same as Eddie's. Great on some stuff and lacking on others.
I'll try to write more tomorrow.
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4923
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 12:49 am: |
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T8 - Have you voiced this speaker for anything particular? What do you use as an amp and source music when you listen to your designs to tweak the final few degrees? Frank Sinatra or Metallica? Do you have any reaction so far to what the response has been? Or is that an unfair question?
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4932
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:11 pm: |
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"The Lings semi-BBC curve", eh? Oye! I hope you picked the part of the semi I like! |
Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1146
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:52 pm: |
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More specifically, from 200Hz to 20kHz the CBM-170s climb about 10db
Huh?
The specs on the Ascend Acoustics say:
Typical In-Room Frequency Response 63Hz-20kHz +/-3dB
Frequency Response (Anechoic) 69Hz-20kHz +/-3dB
So at most wouldn't that imply a 6 dB rise?
In fact, the graphs here are remarkably flat:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170meas.html
Are you saying they are wrong? Or did I misunderstand you?
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Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 26
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:58 pm: |
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Don't go by the graph on the Ascend site...go by a non-biased site like Soundstage:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend%5Fcbm170/
Tim...can you tell us how you are measuring?
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Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1149
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 02:37 pm: |
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Those are still very flat.
The impedence does go very low (around 5 ohms). This tells me that the Ascend should sound much better on a receiver with high-current amps (NAD, h/k). |
Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 27
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 03:39 pm: |
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Tim...are you measuring in-room? |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 15
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 10:39 pm: |
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I sent them on to Jan today.
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Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 28
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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Did you send your 170's as well? |
Silver Member Username: Dakulis
Spokane,
Washington
United States
Post Number: 377
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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Quinn,
I'm waiting??? That's it? The old kid excuse, huh?
OK, Jan, the pressures on for something spectacular in the review and comparison department. |
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne
Dallas,
TX
Post Number: 4951
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 12:44 am: |
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Pressure?! THERE'S NO STINKIN' PRESSURE!!! |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 16
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 06:59 am: |
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"Quinn,
I'm waiting??? That's it? The old kid excuse, huh?"
I have been busy.
At this point I'm staying away from this. I concur with Eddie's finding.
I did PM Tim my complete thoughts.
I'd be happy to loan my 170s to Jan if he wants to hear them. Maybe at this point it would be better if Ascend sent him a pair. |
Silver Member Username: Stu_pitt
NYC,
NY
Post Number: 392
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 09:44 am: |
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Tim and David - There's a time and place for everything, and this isn't either of the two for this arguement.
Thanks Tim for not going back at David and being respectful in doing so.
David - While I can't speak for everyone, I didn't think Tim was bashing your speakers at all. In fact, he always seemed to mention somewhere that they were good speakers, just different. I understand your need to correct any technical matters that may be off, but there is a way to do it. Please be respectful. I don't think anyone here wants to hear two speaker manufacturers argue over which speaker is better. This is a place for consumers to do that. I understand Tim is a manufacturer, but he has been very helpful, and almost always has sat back quietly, and answered any questions people have had. If you would like to do the same, I'm sure everyone here would be very happy to have you around and would value your input.
Tim reported what he measured. When asked how he got those measurements, he answered every one of them. His measurements may have been off, and were pointed out by several members here.
"Why don't you send me a pair to measure? ;) For some reason, I doubt that would happen."
Please refrain from stuff like this.
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Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1161
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
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Well said Stu...
I'll only say that, as a scientist, I would doubt my own measurements if they differed from everyone elses by 10 dB. Make sure your equipment is up to the task Tim. |
Silver Member Username: T_bomb25
Dayton,
Ohio
United States
Post Number: 605
Registered: Jun-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
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Tim dont worry about it I think he missinterpatated your statements regarding the Ascends. |
Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 29
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:20 pm: |
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While I think it is clear that some of Tim's comments were unclear or misinterpreted, it is kind of hard to misinterpret or mis-state the rising response reference.
Hopefully things are cleared up now without any lingering effects. |
Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1171
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:26 pm: |
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Right. David, while being rude, has a point. If Tim measured the Ascend to rise by 10 dB and measured his flat using the same measurement method, then if he's wrong about the Ascend that implies his speakers fall 10 dB! |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 17
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 02:18 pm: |
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Since Ascend Acoustics records the response graph for every speaker before it goes out the door, maybe David should post the response graph for my pair too. That way everyone can see the graph for the pair Eddie and I both listened to. |
Silver Member Username: Stu_pitt
NYC,
NY
Post Number: 395
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 02:48 pm: |
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The more and more I think about David Farbikant's post, the more I get turned off to his products. The guy comes on here and starts a pissing contest? I was honestly considering buying a pair of Ascends for my office. Now that I think about it, it would have been a great place for them - a college athletic training room (rehab, not weight room). Most of the students here are music and arts majors. They appreciate good music and sound quality, and don't have tons of money to throw at new speakers. Many have asked me questions about the PSB's I'm currently using, and a few have bought some themselves.
I'm glad I didn't buy the Ascends. With a person like that running the show, I'm all set. I know this won't have any significant impact on his product, but I feel like I've done my part. It may be a good product, but I guess I'll never know or care to find out first hand now. |
Silver Member Username: Dakulis
Spokane,
Washington
United States
Post Number: 379
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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Well, I'm back home so I'll weigh in. First off, David you are always welcome to weigh in and express an opinion. We've had the benefit of comments from Tim regarding his speakers, the gentlemen at GMA regarding his speakers and one or more of their fans'. So, I feel that it's important that manufacturers take the time to follow what's going on with consumers and how their speakers are performing. If for no other reason than to set the record straight and do what Tim is doing, i.e., learn and improve their product. (BTW, I think I started this fun with the my original review after purchasing the 170s and I've enjoyed my communications and experience with Tim and the wonderful support and suggestions I received from you and James at Ascend.)
OK, that said, here's what Tim stated:
"So, what we have here are two different speakers. That's an obvious statement but the best summation. I acquired a pair of Ascend CBM-170s myself to compare with. There is no doubt the Ascends are a nice speaker for the price."
I think that statement is pretty self-explanatory and fair to all parties AND TRUE. It's consistent with what Quinn found and stated and ditto for Edster and me.
The next statement is where the dispute arises and it's merely a technical (by which I mean measurement) dispute and it can be resolved objectively using adequate and SWI (standard within the industry) equipment and techniques.
Tim stated: "What I found is that the CBM-170 has a rising reponse curve compared with the Lings semi-BBC curve. More specifically, from 200Hz to 20kHz the CBM-170s climb about 10db. From 200Hz to 3kHz they climb about 3db which is barely noticable. The Lings on the other hand have no overall gain from 200Hz to 20kHz but they are down 3db at 2kHz."
OK, I don't know if Tim's right or Ascend is right but Peter and Curtis both pointed to Ascends and others' measurements that dispute Tim's measurements. So, maybe Tim's are wrong. I don't see anywhere that Tim said "hey, I have the absolute best equipment and my measurements are 'spot on'". (That's perfect for you who speak English as a first language.) On the flip side, we're are generally a skeptical lot and we asked Tim for some explanation of his measurement method and he provided it. Obviously, he wasn't trying to hide anything or mislead anyone. So, I would be inclined to cut Tim some slack, especially given his helpful posts in the past and his willingness to share knowledge and information, outside of "trying to sell speakers."
Tim's next statement appeared to be and was expressed as "his opinion" or, at least, that's how I read it.
"The result is that to me, the Ascends are a bit bright and forward, the Lings are warm and laid back. Bright and forward is appealing for short periods of time, and some people may prefer that quality for the life of their system. Warm and laid back is less exciting initially, but over the long haul can be a very welcoming quality."
Well, my review did not say the Ascends were "bright" or "forward", I believe I said clean and neutral. Ed's could have been read somewhat that way but he clarified his statement. So, anyone reading the multiple threads could make up their own mind and accept or reject Tim's opinion.
(BTW, Quinn I was just joshing you and no ill will was intended in any way, I've had young children and know where you're at and why you're busy. ENJOY it, they get older too soon and talk back too frequently. LOL)
The rest of Tim's response was dealing with his equipment and how he feels the equipment works, or doesn't work, with the Lings. Pretty non threatening from what I could tell.
David, the first part of your response seemed fair. It took Tim's point and deconstructed them point by point.
I thought the: "Why don't you send me a pair to measure? ;) For some reason, I doubt that would happen" was a bit of a cheap shot AND, more importantly, I think it assumes too much. Tim has been very willing to share his speakers and he has professed a desire to improve them through the review/audition/feedback process. I suspect he would send you a pair to test, so long as you share your results with him. BUT, I'm just saying you know what happens when you assume, don't you? Old law professor, gave it to us this way, it makes an a@@/u/me. Bad Dave, bad Dave. (I'm talking about myself, David.)
The remainder of David's post approaches "rant" status, although it contains a very helpful graph regarding the speaker pair that Ascend sent Tim. David, your "customers" have been incredibly respectful of Tim and Tim, likewise. It was because of Tim's respectfulness, his willingness to "loan out" his speakers for the original audition and his desire to "learn more about his speakers" that this whole thing got started. (BTW, Tim originally offered to pay shipping both ways and I refused because he was being such a gentleman.)
Now, all of the above said, I love my Ascends. I like the sound they produce and I don't believe they're "forward" or "bright", although one could easily call them "bright" when comparing them directly to the Lings in a side by side. From my experience, there's no BAD PUBLICITY and, so far, Tim has gotten some great publicity and reviews for his Ling speakers and Ascend should be thanking it's lucky stars. After all, here are a number of threads where people have reviewed several, different speakers, components and music and deemed these two speakers, with the Ascends getting a nod in each case, as being better, or at least equal, to speakers costing 2-3 times as much. Why the heck would anyone get worked up about that.
So, I suggest that Tim might want to delete his post in part and David you might consider asking the forum administrator to do the same with the latter portion of your post, and then, everybody just revel in the fact you've made some pretty high quality speakers at an incredible price point. Hey, IT'S FREE, GREAT PUBLICITY for heaven sakes. OK, I'm done.
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Silver Member Username: Dakulis
Spokane,
Washington
United States
Post Number: 380
Registered: May-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 02:56 pm: |
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P.S.
Quinn, I tried to PM but you don't accept them so just take a big "I'm sorry" if you felt that I was being rude, really not intended. Thanks, Dave. |
Silver Member Username: Joe_c
Atlanta,
GA
Post Number: 910
Registered: Mar-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 02:59 pm: |
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I second that Stu, I bet David has not read any of Tim's other posts where he has helped most everyone without bashing, name calling or being caprice about who he is and what he does. I will never buy an Ascend product now that I have heard the voice behind it, no matter how good it sounds. If he did make a mistake fine, but don't act pompous when refering to "...sending me a pair, but I doubt it". Tim would be the first to say he might have made a mistake if you had presented a cordial disagreement. |
Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith
Rimouski,
Quebec
Canada
Post Number: 1175
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 03:00 pm: |
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Stu,
Other than David misunderstanding the bit about the receiver's lack-luster performance, his post isn't really too bad. It is a bit insulting to Tim, but I guess he felt attacked. Read it again without emotion and perhaps you'll see what I mean.
I was very surprised to read Tim's post about the 10 dB rise on the Ascend (But now all his posts are gone). And I was even more surprised that noone took issue with that finding. If it's wrong... |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 18
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 03:17 pm: |
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Stu- I wouldn't get too mad at either guy here. Both are defending their work and their products. If Tim's measurements are 10dB hot shouldn't David be able to assert that those measurements are incorrect?
As it has been pointed out of all the measurements of the 170's only Tim's is that different. |
Bronze Member Username: Curtis
Manhattan Beach,
CA
Post Number: 30
Registered: May-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 03:26 pm: |
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I do not know Tim other than these Ascend/Ling threads...so I do not know his history here. How do you come out and say "check your equipment"?
I was quite surprised when I read his measurements and what he said it implies. I realize he wasn't disputing the measurements at Soundstage/NRC, or Ascend's, but posting and commenting on it certainly does have its implications. Even after stating he knew of the other measurements, he did not question his own.
But what I thought really crossed the line was this statement:
"For the AV receiver the brightness of the Ascends helps it's lack-luster performance". I realize now that it wasn't clear that Tim meant his receiver, and I interpreted as a shot at the speakers.
Now he may not have meant any negativity to come from his comments, but I think they were there for people to interpret.
It is clear, that on this open forum, David felt his product and reputation were attacked.
That is the characteristics of forums....you have to let things play out, with a lot of explanation, before you really understand what is going on.
IMO...a misunderstanding where emotion got involved. |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: 19
Registered: Aug-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 03:27 pm: |
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Why should it be the duty of David to read all TIm's posts to respond to Tim calling his speakers bright and unlistenable over time? I've been listening the Ascends for over three years do you know how pissed off I was to have Tim make these accusations toward my hearing and tastes? I didn't post anything yesterday because I didn't want to post while mad. But if it had been my work and design I sure would have answered back.
Tim was not exactly polite to the 170s after the 3rd person in a row comparing the 170 and Lings didn't give the Lings a big thumbs up.
So, since Tim has been a regular here he his held to a different standard than a speaker designer trying to state his case that his product has been maligned?
If someone wants to explain what I'm doing wrong with the PM function please do. As far I can tell I'm set to receive PMs. |
Bronze Member Username: Quinn
Post Number: |
