Ring of the Lings, Part 2: Edsters impressions

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 13
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 02:07 pm:

I've got some close friends that think it is strange too...mostly female.

Ah yes...traffic. I have not had to deal with traffic for almost six years....an 8 minute commute to my former employer. The new job that I think I will be taking is at UCLA...so I will be dealing with it again!

The beaches are great. Annual Surf Festival this weekend...so it is going to be nuts. Unfortunately I can not participate this year due other obligations. I have only missed two in 10 years.

Here are pictures from the 2003 Surf Festival Volleyball tournament. That year, we got Ascend to sponsor my friend's team.
http://changpics.smugmug.com/gallery/340116/1

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 424
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 03:10 pm:

Wait a second.
Edster, a 6000 cu. ft. room? Mmm...a 4.5" driver in a 6000 cu. ft. room. As great as they are that's asking a lot. There's only so much a driver that size can do. I'm thinking that rolling to a sub at 80Hz with this speaker is the best setup for rooms over 1500 cu.ft. You'll still get a lot of dynamics even though it's such a small speaker. Even better would be stereo subs.

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 372
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 03:11 pm:

U rah rah rah, C rah rah rah, L rah rah rah, A rah rah rah, U C L A fight fight fight. (8 clap anyone). OK, now you've done it, I do miss my 50 yard line seats at the Rose Bowl and watching the Bruins, unfortunately mostly hated watching them lose to University of Spoiled Children (yeah, they're back and they're No. 1 in the country again.) BOO!!!

Now, you've done it again. I may have majored in pysch and minored in history BUT I spent more time at Santa Monica playing volleyball than anything. Only 5'9" tall but had a 38" vertical. Lost to Keith Erickson, Wilt Chamberlain and the father of beach volleyball, although I can't recall the guy's name. Karch Kiraly was just a baby and we wouldn't let him play with us. But, UCLA was on its 7th or 8th NCAA championship and I got to play beach ball against several of the guys, Mike Simons and John Hennan for two. Simons was 6' and had a 42" vertical and was the only guy I ever met, including the Wiltster, who could hit over the top of my block.

Yeah, had a jass class with Bill Walton and a couple of the also National Champion basketball team. Hey, we were a basketball school.

OK, earth to Dave, time to return to reality. Geez Curtis, you hit a couple of "happy spots" there. LOL

P.S. - I still played fairly competitive up to 3 years ago when I tore both ligaments in my left foot, landed on large foot under the net. OUCH

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 14
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 03:36 pm:

WOW!! I am only 5'7"...primarily a setter and defense guy, but I loved to hit. I actually played college tennis and picked volleyball because I had lots of friends doing it. I played in leagues with ex-olympians and college players....even good enough to win one championship. I forget the ratings of the league.

Father of beach volleyball...would that be Jim Menges or Ron Von Hagen?

I heard Wilt wasn't that good, just that his height and athleticism helped him at the net....but terrible technique. :-)

I have not played much in the last 8 years or so..maybe just a handful of times during the summer, and few more throughout the year. I also have two torn ACLs..custom brace for one knee. Messed one up in college during tennis practice. The other, I landed on a portable net standard when playing hack volleyball with friends (I won't do that again).

OK...yeah...this has nothing to do with speakers...but it is fun.

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 373
Registered: May-05

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 06:03 pm:

Good job, Ronnie Von Hagen. I knew of Jim but Von Hagen used to show up in his Porsche on lunch hour, play awhile and leave. I never did figure out what he did for a living but I really wanted that job.

Wilt couldn't move at all. He teamed up with Keith Erickson and another guy on occasion. When my partner and I played them, Erickson covered the whole court, set him and then just got out of the way. Wilt could hit straight down on the beach, not many people can do that. Actually, I played with Wilt indoors twice and he had gotten fairly decent by the time he got into the pro volleyball indoor circuit as an owner.

Yeah, now back to our regularly scheduled audio programming. Sorry about the complete take off here guys BUT it's all Curtis' fault. LOL

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1815
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 07:40 pm:

There goes Eddie again.....

Talking about that 'fast' bass.

Hahahaha

One of the best misnomers in all of hifi. Also, if you're concerned about which receiver creates the most bass, you need to turn around and immediately toss your current speakers into the garbage.

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 15
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 07:51 pm:

yeah....but since you understand it as a misnomer, then you know what he is hearing. Once you know that, you know what his preferences are in bass.

For the receiver, I don't think it is necessarily the one that creates more bass, but the one that has better amps and damping/control.

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1819
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 07:59 pm:

You can also take it a step further......

If you own a quality amp and speakers, you'll never feel the need to access or change the tone controls from the standard flat position..

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 16
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 08:12 pm:

I'll agree with that...of course, you have to like your speakers too. :-)

Gold Member

Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala
The Occupation

Post Number: 1431
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 12:00 am:

Curtis,

You might want to browse through a dozen or so of Paul's postings so you know who you're dealing with here.

He's one of Ecoustics' most reliable and prolific sources of comic relief, intentional and (more often) unintentional. Strangely endearing...kind of like a wart that one begins to regard as a beauty mark after a few months. LOL!

Gold Member

Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala
The Occupation

Post Number: 1432
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 12:05 am:

anyways, just solved my wiring issue so will soon be listening to the speakers on the NAD with the Hsu hooked up.

Tonight's my last night with these babies, the 170s and Lings will be headed to Quinn tomorrow afternoon, after which Jan will be receiving them. Damn I'm gonna miss having 3 pairs of speakers to play with!

In all seriousness, if I had the moolah and acquiescent wife I might seriously consider keeping the Lings to switch to when listening to certain types of music that they're especially suited for.

Have only had a chance to go through the "Trainspotting" soundtrack tonight so far, and not surprisingly the Lings excel with electronic drum machines, synthesizers and power chords.

On male vocals with quiet background piano (Lou Reed's "Perfect Day") they definitely give the 170s a run for the money, it's a complete tossup which one I preferred more for that song.

Tawaun A.Williams

Silver Member

Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio
United States

Post Number: 505
Registered: Jun-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 12:14 am:

Edster,go over to the future of speakers thread,you will see something funny.

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 425
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 08:41 am:

Thanks for a thorough job Edster!

Gold Member

Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala
The Occupation

Post Number: 1434
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 01:31 pm:

Tim,

Thank YOU for letting me audition them! It's been a thoroughly enjoyable, and very educational, experience on many levels.

Also thanks to Quinn for loaning me his 170s and STF-2, I hope to read your thoughts on the Lings soon.

Later tonight I'll post my last detailed review, this time of the 170s, 340s, and Lings.

Today was a lesson in speaker and subwoofer placement. Let's just say that the Lings, when placed 3 feet apart creating an isosceles triangle towards the listening position, are hugely improved. I originally had them over 6 feet apart to form an equilateral triangle. Also the STF-2 when angled at the wall so that the rear port bounces off more towards the listening position, also enjoyed better performance.

Turns out that I do prefer the 170s over the 340s, though...go figure! lol

Peter Galbraith

Gold Member

Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec
Canada

Post Number: 1104
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:00 pm:

3 feet apart! Yikes!

Quinn

New member

Username: Quinn

Post Number: 5
Registered: Aug-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:15 pm:

I wish I'd thought to write down my settings on the STF-2 before I lent out to Eddie. I'll need to recalibrate the HT system this evening or tomorrow.

I guess I'll start part III for my thoughts.

This is the dead week between summer camp and before school starts on Thursday here for the kids. That makes my listening window whenever the wife can get the kids out of the house this weekend until next Friday.

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 427
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:26 pm:

"Turns out that I do prefer the 170s over the 340s, though...go figure! lol"

Some people like D'Appolito configurations and some don't.

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1834
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:28 pm:

"Today was a lesson in speaker and subwoofer placement. Let's just say that the Lings, when placed 3 feet apart creating an isosceles triangle towards the listening position, are hugely improved."
------------------------
Ahhh, it's a good Idea you moved them 'way apart' like that. Three feet should be plenty of space to allow for plenty of space between them and your Panasonic so you wont have to worry about whether they're shielded or not.

HEH

Tawaun A.Williams

Silver Member

Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio
United States

Post Number: 528
Registered: Jun-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:33 pm:

Its just the coherency of a 2 way bookshelf,they are when designed good are rather magical in that regard.

Jan Vigne

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4843
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 02:56 pm:

T8 - As one of the next recipients of the audition pair of Lings, I've wanted to ask you about your suggestions for placement. I normally use a "rule of thirds" speaker placement which puts the speakers 7' out from the front wall in my listening room. I sit anywhere from 7-9' away from the speakers in a 21' deep room (21x15x9 approx.) with the speakers placed about 10-11' apart. (I know, but it works like nobody's business!) I set the toe in to cross the speaker axes just at my listening position. This gives me a stage full of performers stretching from wall to wall and sometimes, given the right recording techniques/effects, beyond the physical boundaries of the room. "Palpable presence" is terrific. (Blossom Dearie performed just for me last night and a wonderful oerformance it was!) While much of this placement of performers and instruments in space is attributable to the 3/5a's, I've duplicated 90% of the feat with less expensive speaker systems (KEF, B&W, Polk & NSM).

Ed says he listened at 6' away (?). Can the drivers in the Ling give good cohesion to the sound from that near field position or do they require a further distance from the speakers to coalesce? When I tried my Spica's in this back room (the floor standing Angelus**) with their quirky physical design, first and fourth order X-over and time aligned driver placement, I needed a few more feet away from the speaker or sounds would sometimes "stick" to the cabinets.

Also, I've been using the speaker placement suggested by Mapleshade Audio which puts the speakers about 8" above the floor.* With the LS3/5a's and the other small speaker enclosures, and this has provided excellent balance to the sound with an expansive stage width, depth and height. Rick Barnes has also been using this placement with his Spendor 3/5's(?) and SM has used this with several small speaker systems with excellent results. Any thoughts you can share on the subject of stands?

*http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/bedrocks.php

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/gilbraltars.php

(I had used the lower placement when I had the LS3/5a's in the front room. Now that they have moved to the back room where I have more room treatment, I have switched to the higher placement though this still puts the woofer only about 9" off the floor. I've compared this several times to taller stands, both sand damped metal and concrete damped (Sound Anchors) stands, and found a more cohesive sound from the lower placement in both rooms with several amps.

**http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/693/index4.html

I have several sets of speaker cables to use (including Home Depot extension cords), but my favorites that have found a place in my main system for many years are the old Sumiko OCOS cables. A very odd design, I don't know if you remember this cable or not. Any ideas on speaker cables that have synchronicity with the Lings?

Tawaun A.Williams

Silver Member

Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio
United States

Post Number: 530
Registered: Jun-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 03:13 pm:

I have a friend in california who has those stands, with some Pro Ac Tablellite Reference 8s,but his room is extremely small,actually one of the smallest listning rooms I've seen.So do they really work in a room the size of yours?and yeah I usually sit about 8feet away with the speakers about 9 feet apart.

Jan Vigne

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4847
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 03:24 pm:

"This gives me a stage full of performers stretching from wall to wall and sometimes, given the right recording techniques/effects, beyond the physical boundaries of the room. "Palpable presence" is terrific. (Blossom Dearie performed just for me last night and a wonderful oerformance it was!)"

"With the LS3/5a's and the other small speaker enclosures, and this has provided excellent balance to the sound with an expansive stage width, depth and height. Rick Barnes has also been using this placement with his Spendor 3/5's(?) and SM has used this with several small speaker systems with excellent results."

YEP!!! It works well!!!

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 430
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 03:57 pm:

I think your placement method is pretty good Jan. The "rule of thirds" works well in most cases. Where I do my music listening may be different than most. There are no parallel walls, the ceiling is 11' high and there is no wall behind the center point of the speakers. Directly behind each of the speakers is a 45 degree wall about 4 feet long and there is no wall closer than 4 feet. The speakers are about 7-9 feet apart (a little closer for the Lings) and I sit anywhere from 7-9 feet away (depending on which speakers are playing. I try to get my ears on axis with the tweeters, if the speakers are a little higher I don't mind that as much as music coming from the floor. The only time I've had them 3 feet apart is when I've used them as PC speakers (definite overkill). 5 feet is still a bit close together for me. These things always depend on the room. I've used the Lings in listening sessions in rooms with an average ceiling height and maybe 15'W x 24'D with the speakers backed up within inches of the wall, spread ~7' apart and they sounded pretty darn good.
For stands I use my DIY models and toe spikes. The center column is 4" PVC filled with play sand.

Jan Vigne

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4852
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 04:21 pm:

How high are your stands? Any tilt to the platform? Is this for use with a subwoofer or alone?

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 432
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 04:34 pm:

About 30". No tilt. I only use subs in HT. That's a completely different setup.

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 433
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 04:36 pm:

Well, I should say I have used subs in my music system but only temporarily. It depends on what I'm working on.

Quinn

New member

Username: Quinn

Post Number: 6
Registered: Aug-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 05:38 pm:

Eddie just dropped everything off a little bit ago.

I got they idea from Eddie and his wife that they liked the Lings better at 3 feet apart and toed in rather than 6 feet part.

I did get the idea he does his listening at 6 feet away. That to me means he is listening near field. It might also explain his liking the 170 over the 340.

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1839
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:33 pm:

Listening at only 6 feet??

Geez, that's almost as bad as when Im speaker shopping and getting up close and personal.

HEH

Gold Member

Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala
The Occupation

Post Number: 1437
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:31 am:

Paul, PUH-LEEZ...for *you* to even ATTEMPT to say anything about music listening is like a g-a-y man giving advice on Dining At The Y.

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 19
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:36 am:

LOL!!!

Gold Member

Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala
The Occupation

Post Number: 1438
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:37 am:

Jan,

I took a measuring tape and found that my ears are actually about 8 feet away from where I positioned each of the Lings.

All of my gear is on a low TV stand about 5 feet wide, so I ended up having to put the Lings on their stands in front of the stand. The Ascend 340s are immediately on either side of the stand and toed in, and I had the 170s positioned right next to them.

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 20
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:38 am:

I am about 10 feet from my 340's, not sure I would want to be any closer.

Bringing speakers in front of the TV plain, or removing the TV entirely, will help with imaging.

Gold Member

Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala
The Occupation

Post Number: 1439
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:39 am:

Anyways, here's my last session with the Lings.

Moving them closer together improved their coherence and soundstage enormously...they are still nowhere as intricately detailed as the Ascends but it was as if they finally JELLED, I had the sense that all of the notes finally locked into place and I was finally hearing a unified soundfield.

Bach, Brandenburg Concerton No. 3 (mostly violins)
- Ascends the clear winner with the airy strings, the Lings sounded like they were playing from inside a bottle in comparison.

Bach, Toccata & Fugue (pipe organ)
- Lings fared particularly badly here. Using an SPL meter, I had to set the NAD's volume at 12 o'clock (a first for me with not only the Ascends but also with the Lings) in order to get the same output as the Ascends at 9 o'clock position, and even then I still thought I was only hearing maybe half of the music, the Lings were just plain comatose on this one. Ascends 5-1.

Gypsy Kings (flamenco guitar)
Heiter Villa Lobos (classical Spanish guitar)
- Lings had a delightfully golden, lush sound. The Ascends were clearer but almost harsh, not nearly as enjoyable. Lings 3-1.

Thelonius Monk, "Ruby My Dear"
- Lings did very well with Monk's relaxed, simple horns, very warm. The Ascends also did well, I noticed at a lot more detail even at lower volumes (65db) versus the Lings (75 db). Lings 4-3.

Branford Marsalis Quartet, "Mo Better Blues"
- Lings again came out beautifully warm and smooth on the long laid-back notes. The Ascends were more open, spacious and transparent. Dead heat here.

Metallica, "Enter Sandman"
- surprise, surprise! Lings sounded very dark, flat, closed when contending with the continuous bass guitar and monotonous almost one-note deep bass. The Ascends were more dynamic but the high end was thin around the edges. Neither speaker did too well in any case...Cerwin Vegas, anyone? : ) Thank God I almost never listen to metal anymore, I might have to get some JBLs or something like that. Ascends 3-2.

Metallica, "Wherever I May Roam"
- the gong that opens this song had much slower decay on the Ascends, with the Lings it all but flashed and disappeared at the same time. Opposite of how the Lings perform with mid to low tones on solo accoustic guitar and piano. Ascends 4-2.

In conclusion, I keep coming back to the pipe dream of having two pairs of speakers to use with different types of music. Should still be a heck of a lot cheaper than some truly high end audiophile speaker (Tawaun, Jan, and Art among others could provide plenty of candidates I'm sure) that supposedly does EVERYTHING beautifully, lol! Ah, the El Dorado of speakers...

When the Lings are matched with the right type of music, and placed more in an isoceles triange (at least in my room...YMMV), they are wonderfully lush and warm and comforting, offering a totally different listening experience. More of a hit and miss speaker: when they hit they really are gorgeous, but when they miss...not a pretty picture.

The Ascends are a more consistent speaker, more often than not they are astonishingly transparent, dynamic and precisely detailed. My earlier Cezanne vs. Ansel Adams analogy keeps coming back. At the same time the Ascends never could create quite the same feeling as the Lings could at their best.

PS. I ended up preferring the smaller 170s to the 340s, the latter's extra driver provided a fuller sound but at high volumes (over 85db) seemed to lose control of the highs, whereas the 170s stuck to their immaculate and unflappable neutrality no matter how hard I pushed them. Now that I think about it, I had a similar preference when I first auditoned both the 170s and 340s at Quinn's house before I ordered from Ascend, albeit Quinn had the two in different rooms, running off of different amps and CD players; I chose the 340s then because I figured with my enormous living room the larger 340s would work better. My experience in the past week especially using the speaker switcher truly confirms the fallacy of that line of thought: unless one lives in an outright auditorium, speaker size may be largely irrelevant as long as you have a decent power source.

However I have to say that the Lings' 4.5" drivers might indeed be way too small...they consistently clipped with deep bass (kick drums especially) when played at volumes above 80-85db though the 80Hz crossover on my Marantz 5400 helped. With the NAD I found that I had to turn the bass knob on the pre-amp to 9 o'clock.

Also my earlier comments about the Hsu not being able to keep up with fast drums might have been hasty. Today when I angled the Hsu's rear port instead of having it square at the wall, and experiemented with the phase setting and its own crossover point, I found its performance much improved. With the NAD, the Hsu's relatively slowness was much less of a factor than it was with the Marantz.

PPS. Going from NAD to Marantz back to NAD again confirmed how much I prefer the NAD's sound even if it does lack the Marantz's HPF which came in very handy with the Lings...I suppose the bass level knob on the NAD will have to do for now.

Hmm, since I have the speaker switcher I wonder if I should bother doing a comparison of my Mordaunt Short MS-05s and the horrific Polk R20s from my bedroom minisystem, just for laughs?

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 21
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:54 am:

Make good use of that speaker switch! Whatever you do, don't disconnect it....always have it ready for comparisons.

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 22
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:55 am:

great stuff Ed!

Anonymous

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 05:57 am:

When does Jan get his turn? I want to hear an evaluation with some real reference quality components.

Quinn

Bronze Member

Username: Quinn

Post Number: 12
Registered: Aug-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 08:08 am:

I should have thought to borrow the speaker switch.

Anonymous I don't know what Jan's gear is. My comparisons are being done on Audio Refinement Complete gear.

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1854
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:20 pm:

"When does Jan get his turn? I want to hear an evaluation with some real reference quality components."
-----------------------------
From what I can see, Jans the small bookshelf speaker expert. Im not sure if he's even listened to anything else, so his review should be right on the mark.

Anonymous

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:25 pm:

Exactly my point.

Bronze Member

Username: Curtis

Manhattan Beach, CA

Post Number: 24
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:34 pm:

No disrespect to Jan, but if all he knows is bookshelves, that doesn't invalidate the opinions of others.

Jan has preferences just like everyone else. Everyone's opinion is subjective.

Anonymous

Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 04:29 pm:

With all due respect to everyone, my point is I want to hear an evaluation with a reference quality amp and speakers. I don't want to know how they sound with a HT multichannel receiver. I want to know how they compare to a classic reference speaker like the LS 3/5a.