Non amplified music experiences

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4605
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:31 pm:

The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??"

Have at it.

Relevant Product Info

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 361
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:39 pm:

Does that actually happen? Even when an artist plays at the local book or record shop they've got an amp somewhere.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4609
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:44 pm:

Heard it today. Chamber music. Violin, cello and piano. Not an amplifier in sight.

Tawaun A.Williams

Silver Member

Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio
United States

Post Number: 365
Registered: Jun-05

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:09 pm:

Well seeimg that most people dont listen to chamber music and every thing we use has a amp.So, this thread seems pretty pointless.

Silver Member

Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 175
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:17 pm:

About 25 years ago, I visited the Trent Bridge Inn, near to the Nottingham cricket ground, at lunchtime.
I was somewhat surprised to find that a string quartet were playing some Shostakovich pieces.
Such things are not usual, in my experience. (it is usually Mozart). {grin}

I was shocked that nobody except me seemed to notice them?
The sound volume seemed fairly low. That seemed odd as well.
I played violin from age 8 to 10, then gave up, because I was useless. But I know that the volume of a violin cannot be changed much.

The fact that a violin, played in a concert hall, can sound so amazingly loud, is obviously due to the accoustics of the hall and the silence of the audience.
These observations are probably very obvious, but worth making, I think, in the terms of what we hear of live music. :-)

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1305
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:43 pm:

Tim, you need to get out more. I visit Seattle often. You have ample opportunties to listen unamplified music there.

TW, we host the Chintimini Chamber Music Festival and the Bach fetsival here and they do quite well.

There isn't alot of unamplified music these days but it can be found. I think many people don't want to have to listen to music. They want their music much as they want their other entertainment served to them in a way that allows them to think as little as possible. TV and video's. Calgon take me away.

With unamplified music, not just because of the genres that tend to be unamplified but also the typical volume, one must actually listen to hear all of it.

Unamplified music has a lower noise floor and greater total dynamics. It can be so quiet that you can barely hear it, then roar to life as in a Mahler Symphony.

Bedtime, must work tomorrow.

Jimvm

Silver Member

Username: Jimvm

Louisiana
U.S.A.

Post Number: 128
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:43 pm:

When we lived in Mexico City, we used to go to a Polish restaurant called "Mazurka." To say it was elegant was an understatement. Very soon after being seated, a tuxedoed waiter would bring each lady at the table an orchid -- and pin it on them. Then each person at the table was served ice cold vodka in a frosted shot glass -- on the house. The food was excellent. And there was always a four or five piece ensemble playing chamber music -- mostly Chopin. Interestingly enough, this restaurant also catered all of the meals for Pope John Paul II on his several trips to Mexico City.

Silver Member

Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 176
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:44 pm:

" every thing we use has a amp.... this thread seems pretty pointless"
A lot of us do hear live music! It may be pointless to you, though. So it will be okay if you don't read it.
Regards,
diablo

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3474
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 12:03 am:

"Does that actually happen?"

"every thing we use has a amp"

....?

A moment's thought: what is it that the amplifier amplifies?

Don't know if you're anywhere near an HMV shop, diablo - down here, there is an amazing Shostakovich Qt. complete cycle, on CD, currently on special offer. Ridiculous price. I paid a bit more for it, last year. Apart from the music, and the performance, it is a two-microphone, modern, live recording, with very natural sound. Not an amp in sight. Or within earshot. Brilliant.

"But I know that the volume of a violin cannot be changed much. "

I heard the Bruch concerto on Saturday. Along with 5,000 others. Not an amp in sight. Great dynamics, but the soloist was bit quiet if one is used to spot-miking, as we all are, from recordings and broadcasts. If you are near a radio on Wednesday p.m. you can check it out...

Silver Member

Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 177
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 12:36 am:

John A.
Will look out for the Shostakovich.

I recorded the Bruch concerto on my (lossless)DVR and quite enjoyed it on replay. The violin part (Leila Josefowicz) was very well conveyed, but the sound of the Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra was not too good. Sounded very 'muddled' on my system. Orchestras at the RAH usually sound better than that.
I've only ever heard solo violinists in smaller halls than the RAH, when the sound volume seems adequate.
Regards,
diablo

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4611
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:10 am:

T'wan - Just when I think your score on the stupidity scale couldn't rise any higher ...

Paul

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1652
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:32 am:

I recently ate at a restaurant that had a mariachi band.

Does that count??

HEH

http://www.elmariachi.com/images/mariachi_smileys.gif

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3479
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:58 am:

diablo,

You got it. Did you record the whole concert? Can I have a copy...?! (smiley, but serious!).

The balance was the other way around in the hall; the violin was indistinct and a bit "muddied". At least where we were. Probably a promenader in the front row would have got a better balance. The orchestra was really, really good. Probably Leila J was spot-miked for the broadcast. In life, she sounded - and looked - just great.

Did you record part 2....? All subwoofer addicts should go and hear - or, rather, feel - the RAH organ, and so quickly realise the futility of trying to put that sound in you living room. It shook the whole circle. And that was playing quiet. My god, what an awesome sound was part 2.... If you ever meet any of those RLPO people up your way, or the Chester choir, buy them a drink or something. Please. They were magnificent. Totally.

BTW The Rubio Quartet. On "Brilliant Classics". End of plug!

Tawaun A.Williams

Silver Member

Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio
United States

Post Number: 368
Registered: Jun-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 03:03 am:

And Diablo I never said I didnt listen to live music,their is amplified live music you know?maybe you should read what I posted a little better,it would be ok if you went back to read it again. Regards,Tawaun

Kano

Silver Member

Username: Kano

Post Number: 550
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 06:30 am:

Maybe...

Go.

don't reply in vague details, only speak of what you have extensive knowledge of

Go.

make sure you re-read your post several times or it will be disected in order to better illustrate you a fool.

Go.

My Rantz is standing by to back me up so don't try to argue anything I say.

Silver Member

Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 178
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 08:32 am:

Did you record the whole concert? Can I have a copy...?! (smiley, but serious!).
I'll see what I can do. Have had mixed results when copying from DVR to pc and burning DVDs.Will send an email if I have success, but don't hold your breath. :-)

I heard the RAH organ in James Macmillan's 'A Scotch Bestiary for organ and orchestra'. Not my usual type of music (I don't think I'm alone here, the orchestra probably outnumbered the paying punters), but it held my attention. Organ came across very well, vibrated the floor even without subwoofers. I'm sure my neighbours wouldn't want me to get any!

Tawaun,
Are you still reading this pointless thread?

Rgds,
diablo

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 363
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:20 am:

"Tim, you need to get out more. I visit Seattle often. You have ample opportunties to listen unamplified music there."

Like Benaroya? I've heard the Seattle Symphony before.
Livened up the thread didn't it?
;-)

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 728
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:43 am:

Tawaun buys more speakers than all of us combined. His input, along with his grammar, should be regarded as godlike. I know of no other self proclaimed audiophile who could pick apart all the pro's and con's of high end speakers and turn right around and praise $80 SDAT's as being in the same league. You never know what a man like that has been through. Jan you should be careful, anyone with a username like Tbomb scares the poopy outta me.

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 729
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:49 am:

sorry I had to add this, it's taken off the SDAT website describing a speaker they produce and I swear Tbomb wrote it:

SB-800

SB-E800 Hi-Fi Speaker

3 way 500 watts base reflex, Those yellow Fiber glass cone don�t just look good, they also delivers a very deep and powerful sound. Dual 6.5 woofer even make better base that a 10 inch woofer.

swear, word for word look for yourself,rotflamo!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4614
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:08 am:

Just when I think t'wan couldn't score any higher on the stupid, rude and just utterly ignorant scale ...

I'm wondering what will happen if I insult him a few more times. What's he gonna do to me? Complain to the administrator that I can spell and use punctuation?

twan, if you respond to this I'll know you're reading this pointless thread. What do you think that will do to your score? Why don't you just move on to another thread? You've made your threats; now just go away from here. If you want to take me on again, start another new thread. Don't mess this one up too. Come on, twan, it's rude to make people on this thread read that you don't like me. We're trying to have a conversation on this thread. OK?

Lei Pang

Unregistered guest

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:53 am:

sorry I had to add this, it's taken off the SDAT website describing a speaker they produce and I swear Tbomb wrote it:

What a stupid childish statement, if you do not know the facts please just shut your mouth! Stupid kid...Maybe you could give us some lessons as how to build a speaker? You don't really think that two 6.5 speakers can sound better than one 10" when designed properly?

And no, T-bomb did not write that, it was a Chinese colleague who has made an incredible effort to try to learn a different language, maybe you could write something for us in Chinese?

Ignorant!

Peter Ranslow

Bronze Member

Username: Pbdr

Post Number: 40
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:53 am:

So Tawaun, any thread you don't like you first seem to make an inane comment, maybe poke a little fun at the thread starter, then get pissed off when people don't like your comments. You get all huffy and start telling certain people not to talk to you, calling them names and even threatening people. I have seem you degerate to such name-calling that the thread was removed (from ecoustics!), if you don't like the tread, just stay off.

Is this your grown up way of trying to get attention?

It may be true that most people don't listen to chamber and/or orchestral and/or opera, or any of many forms of unamplified music, but a lot of people do (and who would think that they might be posting on a forum for audio enthusiasts). Where do you get off deciding that the whiole thread is pointless? Let others talk if you have nothing good to say.

Also, it is technically illegal to threaten someone with bodily harm, and you have done it twice (at least) on an open forum. Better hope Jan doesn't feel litigious...

Oh, and please tell me you don't like me again; it validates me.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4618
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 12:55 pm:

The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??"

Have at it, not each other.

TW critic

Unregistered guest

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:03 pm:

Regarding TW:

http://www.ndmda.org/
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm

The threats alone should be enough to get him banned from the forum...

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 274
Registered: May-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:38 pm:

Does someone here need a lawyer? Do I have to separate you all again?

Chamber music is good. Mariachis are just lovely, thanks for sharing, Paul, I really missed you. LOL

Unamplified music exists, even in Spokane. So, if it's here, it's got to be everywhere, if you do a little listening.

Now, what was the question again, so we can get back on track?

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 364
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:50 pm:

I made my initial response because while there are opportunities for non-amplified music it usually requires a good environment, such as an acoustically treated audiotorium, etc.. I was near the Courthouse and there was a jazz quartet playing. I thought this a good opportunity to catch some nice music and take away something I could post here. Unfortunately there were these poles topped with black boxes that said Peavy on them. Oh well. Listening to a full orchestra in a good theater is truly a treat. The dynamics are incredible.

Peter Ranslow

Bronze Member

Username: Pbdr

Post Number: 41
Registered: Apr-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:51 pm:

So, I haven't listen to a whole lot of "unamplified" music, maybe a handful of classical concerts, but I am curios if those of you that do think it can be accurately reproduced with HiFi gear.

Do you need absolute high-end equipment, or can "decent" gear do it?

Paul

Gold Member

Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 1658
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 02:08 pm:

I've found the perfect receptical to contain your chamber music.

http://www.ocean-institute.org/edu_programs/materials/P/Org/Hist/SFE_ChPot.htm

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 365
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 02:16 pm:

"Do you need absolute high-end equipment, or can "decent" gear do it?"

That's up to the listener. If your goal is to perfectly replicate the experience of a live performance you may never reach that goal. This is exactly the question that made the "Do you listen?" thread the second longest thread that I'm aware of on this forum.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1308
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 03:58 pm:

I'm sorry this post is late but I had to go to work this morning after I read Jan and TW's exchange.

That exchange really bothered me and I had to think about it on my way to work. It seems that there was exponential growth in the responses of both parties to the dispute.

TW simply stated that he thought that this thread was "pointless", that was met by Jan with a post that would have put most of us on the defense,

"T'wan - Just when I think your score on the stupidity scale couldn't rise any higher ..."

Hmm, seems a little out of proportion to TW's original post. TW went off the richter with a violent response that should have him banned from the forum.

I am however disturbed that one of our most knowledgable contributors is calling someone "stupid" for having a an opinion other than his. I'm not trying to start anything, I just find it regretable that such an avoidable exchange happened.

Lei Pang

Unregistered guest

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 04:09 pm:

I am not surprised at Mr. Vigne's comments at all; he seems to be a very discourteous individual

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/150542.html

Peter Galbraith

Silver Member

Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec
Canada

Post Number: 996
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:18 pm:

Art wrote:

TW simply stated that he thought that this thread was "pointless"

He stated a bit more than that. "every thing we use has a amp.So, this thread seems pretty pointless." That statement shows either a lack of knowledge of anything acoustic, or more likely baiting when preceeded by " Well seeimg that most people dont listen to chamber music".

I could see why Jan took offense. If TW had nothing to contribute, then why did he, except to bait? He himself gets deeply offended when people he dislikes post on the threads he starts. I don't suppose anyone needs proof of that.

Face it. TW declared some of us his enemies. This was just a blatant attack on one of them. He should get banned for the threat of violence. On the positive side, he has shown his true colours for all to see.

Peter Galbraith

Silver Member

Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec
Canada

Post Number: 997
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:22 pm:

joseph coulson wrote:
sorry I had to add this, it's taken off the SDAT website

What is their web site?

Devils Advocate

Bronze Member

Username: Devils_advocate

Post Number: 37
Registered: Jul-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:31 pm:

www.sdatgroup.com

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4623
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:37 pm:

Pang, my response to you is on that same thread. If you're sticking around to insult me; take your own advice and get to know me first. TO DO OTHERWISE IS DISCOURTEOUS! You don't want to be discourteous; do you, Pang?

Art - You're entitled to your opinion; but you're wrong. Now, if twan doesn't show back up to disrupt the thread again, can we move on?

The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??"

What do we have to say about music?

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3482
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 06:24 pm:

diablo,

Thanks. I will first try to catch the stereo FM broadcast of the recording of the performance; this is on Wednesday, starting at 2 p.m., not the best time. BTW the RAH was full to capacity on Saturday.

Jan,

Let me state for others that this thread grew from Do you listen where some things are said about music.

T8,

"while there are opportunities for non-amplified music it usually requires a good environment, such as an acoustically treated audiotorium, etc" Again, I disagree. Today I heard a guy playing bagpipes in a street, in the open air. Not an amp in sight. He still drew a crowd. It was loud. He could play. It was good.

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1310
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:01 pm:

Jan - Where was I wrong? I've looked over my post and it looks accurate. I guess I must be stupid as well.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4630
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:06 pm:

Christoncrutches, Art! Do you want to discuss music or twan?

Gold Member

Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon
USA

Post Number: 1311
Registered: Feb-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:07 pm:

Peter, you are right TW did say more. Putting it into context really makes it sound even more inocuous. I feel that you guys are missing something here. I will stop posting here about it and send you and Jan personal messages later when I get home. Jan please refrain from a responding until I can send you a message later. Thank you.

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 280
Registered: May-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:13 pm:

Are there forum mediators or just moderators? Maybe I should start up a new consulting business, Audiophile Forum Mediators, Inc. Do you think eCoustics would pay me for this?

Silver Member

Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 736
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:17 pm:

Art , you and Jan are the last two people on this forum that should be at each other. You two exemplify knowledge in this field and please stop. There is plenty for others.

Dakulis

Silver Member

Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington
United States

Post Number: 284
Registered: May-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:26 pm:

I'm with J.C. on this one, Art and Jan.

Anyway, I think Jan and T-Man got off on the wrong foot and there's plenty of stones thrown, which would need to be retrieved, in order to get back to civility there.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4633
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:23 pm:

The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??"

What do we have to say about music?

Silver Member

Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA
USA

Post Number: 371
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:31 pm:

"Today I heard a guy playing bagpipes in a street, in the open air. Not an amp in sight. He still drew a crowd. It was loud. He could play. It was good."

That's a good point. Did he have anything surrounding him to reinforce the pipes? Of course, with pipes you may not need much. I've noticed the street musicians will usually pick a spot where their instrument sounds best. Often it includes standing in front of an entrance to a building with a high ceiling and hard surfaces. Almost like a horn with reverb.

Devils Advocate

Bronze Member

Username: Devils_advocate

Post Number: 40
Registered: Jul-05

Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:32 pm:

It's just better. I listened to someone playing a flute today. Then I thought about the Jethro Tull greatest hits CD I had been listening to earlier (which is by the way, very very good for those who like that type of music). No comparison. Then again, my system is far from top of the line.