Archive through June 06, 2005

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3843
Registered: May-04

Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 04:58 pm:

Hmmm ... from a world long, long ago and far, far away he is.

By the dark side of practicality, young jedi, do not be swayed!

Think only of the sound, you must.

Your guide, the Quads must be!

Hmmmmmm ..........

Relevant Product Info

Two Cents

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 613
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 11:26 pm:

John A.

Happy to read that you're enjoying the Primaluna amp. Sounds like a keeper to me.

The improvement in sound isn't in-yer-face as noted, but it's certainly there. The music has more dimensionality (for lack of a better word) and notes seem fuller and deeper. The amp takes about half-an-hour from start-up to open up.

To improve the WAF, I suggest taking the cage off at night with the lights turned low, a nice bottle of cabernet, and Al Green playing on the stereo. Good luck, man!

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1888
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 11:44 pm:

"I get a bit queasy at the thought of the more sensible things we could do with it."

Me too, John. Me too. LOL!

But hey, if this beast is your thing, then congrats and enyoy. If you get half the enjoyment we are getting from our system and hi-res surround music then you'll be plenty pleased. And who knows, maybe the astute Mrs A will warm up to the Prologue 2 come winter. Pun intended. [grin]

And cheers to all you other odd retrogressionists.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3144
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:21 am:

Thanks, Two Cents. Yes, I agree. I find it difficult to find words for sounds. "Dimensionality" indeed. Yes, I suppose so!

Your recommendation was a factor in my decision.

I went to two dealers, and both recommended the Two for use with my speakers. The first dealer (playing Hildegard of Bingen from LP on horns...!) even directed me to the second, since they only had a One in stock (the price of which has just gone up �50 here). The One might be OK with horns, but probably not with Quad ESLs, they said.

The HiFi News review of the Two says the One can be preferable, with a "Sweeter" but less "Gutsy" sound, depending on speakers used, and tastes. As always, the adjectives those guys use mean little to me. I am no poet.

Thanks for the tips. I dare not remove the cage, we have children (responsible ones, but why risk it?). The cabernet is a good idea.

I assume the model I have is run-in, having been used in the shop.

Apart from all this about tube sound, I can confirm the power is ample. The max sensible volume ever needed is about 12 o'clock on the control. This is true of both CD and tuner. The Sony ES needed a lift for the tuner, up to 1 o'clock. So, as people have indicated, a 40 W valve amp has the muscle of a 100 W solid state.

I shall rig up the old amp and do a rough A/B later today, a holiday, here. Mrs A is actually an astute and sensible person, a fellow sceptic. If I can hear it, she will. The absence of pain from high, loud violins on CD was the first thing I noticed. This will not be enough, on its own. One does not fork out a grand (in pounds sterling) for a tone control.

There is just altogether much more there to listen to. One can hear phrasing as never before, particularly in inner parts, also timbre, e.g. the vibrato of individual cellos, not previously separated easily from the mush of low strings. I will have to listen to the comparison myself to make quite sure this is not all wishful thinking.

BTW The second shop demo was Diana Krall through some Martin Logans. In their big room, it was just like a real performance. Exemplary. And from CD, too! I did not take my own advice and take a familiar CD. Anyway, it is how it sounds here that matters, and over an extended listen, and with diverse and familiar material.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3145
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:33 am:

Thanks, MR! Posts crossed.

I will confess to you that all I really know is this amp is better than the previous one. There are some tempting sold-state machines for a similar price; I have not made a real valve vs transistor comparison. I guess I have moved up a notch in mid-range hifi, at least for stereo, and that could be about the sum of it.

Re money, there is this strange phrase "Entry-level". The shop I bought from sells stuff I shall never consider, even for a moment. Not even at exit-level.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3852
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 01:20 am:

John - I think 2c was suggesting the amp will sound its best after it has warmed up for at least 30 minutes before listening. As Rick has discovered the transformers have a lot of iron and copper to bring to temperature. I believe his epiphany was at around 4 hours of use. I normally leave my amps on 24/7 for the best sound.

You may feel uncomfortable leaving the amps on while you're not in the room, but if you let the amps warm up with some background music or BBC news for at least an hour before listening, I think you will find more there to hear.

As to the volume control setting; it is dependent on the taper the manufacturer selects for their pots and the input sensitivity. Yes, tubes sound more powerful than solid state in most cases, but the position of the volume control is not a relevant way to judge.

Two Cents

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 614
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 01:33 am:

Rantz,

Even though we've diverged paths in the formats we've chosen, I think you're right on: It's all about the enjoyment of the music. Whichever format or equipment delivers the enjoyment is the right one.

John A.,

I too am aghast at what passes as entry-level in the commercial world of hi-fi. Rest assured, the Primaluna amp, although not the best amp I heard, comes pretty close to much more expensive gear. When I was auditioning amps, I first listened to amps that were above my price range. The benchmark was the Conrad Johnson MV60SE amp and Premier 17 preamp (total cost of about 10 grand). The Primaluna isn't nearly as good, but delivers about 90% percent of the performance for about 15% of the cost of the CJ gear. I know trying to quantify performance is absurd, but it's useful in making the point.

This isn't to try to convince to get the amp. You should only get it if you're completely comfortable with the decision and you know it'll make you happy in the long run. If you end up second guessing you're decision, then it's probably a bad one. There are always good amps in the market.

All the best.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1144
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 09:05 am:

John,

It sounds like you are on your way to becoming a TUBEOPHILE. LOL! I can only smile reading about what you are experiencing. The attacks and decays of the notes. Jan said it best. The inner resolution of low level detail. The liquid flow of the music. You can hear and feel wood instruments resonate. To me there is a harmonic richness and integrity, you can only get with tubes.

I like turning on my amp at least an hour before listening. I find the longer it's on the better it sounds. As far as my CD player goes, I never turn it off. It takes decades for transistors to warm up. LOL! Enjoy John, and welcome to a new musical awakening. As you venture into tube rolling, it only gets better. Cheers!

Oh, yes...... Jan you are much too modest on this one. We all owe you a debt of gratitude. Without your insight and experience, I doubt any of us would be listening through tubes. THANK YOU!

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3146
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 11:21 am:

Wonderful feedback, friends. Many thanks.

Waiting an hour for warm-up does not exactly facilitate A-B comparisons. I have to switch everything off to re-connect cables etc.

WIth the PL Prologue 2, I think I am getting into mild distortion of massed sopranos in loud choral stuff at about 12.30 o'clock. As people have repeatedly said, it is not as painful as the transistor variety. I'll try it again with a warm-up amp.

Quick question; could this be "microphonics"? Of necessity, right now, I have the amp a few feet away from the right speaker. Not in its path, to one side, but the floor is suspended, and things do vibrate in the room at certain frequencies.

I would have to refer to my test discs to illustrate the point.

There are trade-offs. Voices can be a little more distinct on the Sony. It could be a flaw, if sibilants are exaggerated, but it is always good to hear the words. In contast, blazing brass in painful (literally) on the Sony, and sounds more like the real thing on the PrimaLuna. Then one wonders about the recording etc. Which is more "Accurate"? - impossible to tell without having been there.

The other thing to consider is that the Sony is a power amp, getting a signal straight from the CD player (I took out the RCA switch box for this test). The Prologue 2 is an integrated amp. Who knows what a valve pre-amp would do for the Sony.

It would be good to go back to the shop with some test discs and my old amp, to see if the differences are still there. That's probably asking a lot.

I'll say one thing for sure; this "All amps sound the same" proposition is total nonsense.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1889
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 11:46 am:

"It would be good to go back to the shop with some test discs and my old amp, to see if the differences are still there. That's probably asking a lot."

If the dealer is worth his salt I don't believe it would be asking a lot John. You are thinking about spending a reasonable sum of money there. And it is you who has to live with your decision - and your family. And most probably your neighbours. And the dog.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1890
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:12 pm:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14973%26item%3D5778161 959%26

John, and other tube lovers

The above tube amp has been sold on Ebay here in Aus lately. I think it usually goes for around $1200au at closing bid (but don't quote me) and I thought I'd post the link here for your interest and maybe a comparison for your PL John.

John, as much as I would like to get you back on the right track, may I suggest that if the PL isn't up to your expectations, why not try out some others with similar specs and price?

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3854
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:19 pm:

First: "Waiting an hour for warm-up does not exactly facilitate A-B comparisons. I have to switch everything off to re-connect cables etc."

Then: "I'll say one thing for sure; this "All amps sound the same" proposition is total nonsense."

Geezers! For a while I thought you had slipped back into Gregory Stern's "I hear nuthingk!!!" ideology. In case you have not read or do not remember reading; never leave a tube power amplifier turned on when there is no load present. The speakers must be connected when the amp is powered up. To do otherwise is risking damage to the amplifier.

John, now that you've tried something new in the way of amplification, why not try something new in the way of listening. Forget the A - B stuff. Trying to switch out gear from a power amp to an integrated tube amp is tedious to say the least. Dangerous to state the most extreme.

Listen to the tubes for a few hours and then plug the Sony back in. No need to listen to this phrase on A and then the same phrase on B. Just listen to the music not the amplifiers. If neither one makes you smile, don't spend the money for a new amp. Very simple. Amplifiers should not be placed in petri dishes and observed for activity. Forget the hifi and think as if you were judging two performances of the same work. No more, no less.

And remember; a jedi is never in doubt.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3147
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 03:02 pm:

Jan,

Thanks. I've already done most of that. Yes, I remembered not to disconnect the cables with the amp switched on.

I did some extensive listening using both amps today. Not exactly A-B, but as close as practical; trying to keep everything else constant, trying to change just one thing in order to see if it, on its own, makes a difference. This I think is just common sense - "scientific" in the best sense.

Anyway, I have a conclusion from subjective evaluation which I am not completely sure about, and cannot explain. As follows.

Sony 55ES. Clear speech on radio. Brittle and harsh on CD. Music on radio variable. Excessive high frequencies maybe cut by FM rolloff; "less harsh on radio" has been my consistent experience.

Prologue Two. 8 Ohm taps. Smooth, rich, detailed, etc, predominantly dark, with speech indistinct.

Prologue Two 4 Ohm taps. The best. More treble, but never harsh. The best of both worlds.

Now, - am I imaging this? (It required some hours and one's mood and attention wanders).

The Quads are nominally 8 Ohms, but dip to 4 Ohms at around 10 kHz. Could this explain a loss of treble using 8 Ohm amp output? I do not see how.

Concerning which speaker outputs to use, the Prologue manual says effectively: "experiment - let your ears decide".

Like Gregory, perhaps, I am always suspicious of my own perceptions, and am more inclined to accept something if I can understand why it appears as it does. But I do not reject things I cannot explain. That would be just as irrational, IMHO.

Anyway, Jan - is there any sense in this first report on Prologue Two vs. Sony ES?

MR,

Many thanks! Will reply. I was tempted by Musical Fidelity, but thought I would try this "entry-level" tube amp, and from a dealer, not direct sale (which I also considered). The dealer seems in a special league ("We stock what we consider to be the best") without the distributor packages which I always saw in the other place. E.g. these guys sell both KEF and B&W- I have not encountered that before. We'll see.

Jan again,

"And remember; a jedi is never in doubt."

Yes, and always right! That is the extreme Right I have always thought was embedded in Star Wars. Like John Wayne but with special effects. What we need is a blockbuster with a universal role model who doubts everything, including himself, and so seeks evidence for conclusions, never assuming other people are wrong because of who they are.

Do you think it would sell? Not much escapist fantasy potential, there, that's the problem. More fun to imagine being born one of the elect, who can do no wrong, and who will lead others to fight on a side that deserves to win, and will.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3148
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 04:59 pm:

Sorry to ramble off again.

I do not know MUS amps, MR, but it generally looks impressive.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3862
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 07:33 pm:

Your response to the Sony is your own response. I'm very familiar with the ES line but have never heard any of their amps on Quads. I have to say, the shops I worked in wouldn't suggest that combination.

The valve unit will respond to the reactive qualities of the circuit created by the amp and the speakers. Valve amps inherently have a somewhat higher output impedance than a solid state amp (an obvious sign of solid state superiority according to some - again a jedi is never in doubt, this is hogwash). As with transistor amps, how high is a function of the quality of the design and construction, most specifically the transformer design when dealing with valve power amplifiers. The higher the output impedance from the amplifier, i.e. 8 Ohm tap vs. 4 Ohm tap, the more reactive this circuit becomes. As the impedance of the speaker rises and falls in relation to the output impedance of the amplifier, the frequency response, damping factor and the distortion product will change accordingly.

This is the great failure of many SET valve amplifiers. The output impedance of a SET will often be higher and less well controlled than a push pull valve amp. Its design is weakened in its ability to drive a reactive speaker load successfully by the lack of feedback (local and global) which is normally not applied to a SET design. When this nonfeedback design, with its high output impedance, meets an unfriendly speaker load which dips and rises and places multiple capacitors, resistors and inductors in the path of the amplifier, the frequency response can be drastically off kilter. When the same amp is connected to a simpler load or a full range speaker with no X-over, the amplifier is much more stable in its response.

By comparison to many dynamic speakers, the Quads are a fairly reactive load. They show a good deal of capacitance to the amplifier's output stages and an inductive load as well, though resistance is minimal by comparison to most dynamic designs. This combination of high capacitance with high inductance is normally self exclusive (or at least minimized) in a dynamic speaker and so many amps will not deal with this load very well. The best bet on most valve amps would be keeping the output impedance of the amplifier as low as possible to avoid as many interactions as possible. The fashion in which the Quads operate makes good valves a desirable match over many solid state amplifiers, though the high wattage, brute power solid state designs are often more suited to the rigors of driving a pair of Quads to full volume. (That's a pretty broad statement that can be refuted on several levels.) It is another paradox of owning Quads. The desire to market low or no feedback amplifiers has made speakers such as the Quad a more difficult speaker to drive than need be. While these no feedback designs have some benefits, they also have many limitations when put in real world systems. I don't know the amount of feedback the PrimaLuna employs to even begin to guess whether that is affecting the sound you are hearing. A modest amount of feedback should be a benefit when driving a speaker such as the Quad.

The short answer to your question is what you are describing should be the reaction of the amplifier to the load of the speakers when utilizing the higher output impedance from the 8 Ohm tap. For the transfer function to work properly, it is almost always the best choice to judge which tap to use by the minimum impedance of the system rather than the "nominal" impedance load. In most cases the Quads should be considered a 4 Ohm load.

When matching output taps to speaker load, you will also find the tube amplifier beginning to sound more and less like a valve amp in the sense of what many people consider "tube sound". In this case, on the 8 Ohm tap you have the more typical sound associated with valves by people who have never heard valves done well. As you drop to the 4 Ohm tap, you will hear the amplifer reacting more like a s.s. design since its output impedance is now closer to a s.s. design. Fortunately you should not loose the sense of valves being the amplification of choice. This ability of valves to acquire the benefits of solid state is far and away more desirable in my opinion than the ability of solid state to only sound like solid state.

As you listen more to the choice of taps, consider which tap gives the most dynamic power. In large scale pieces or densely orchestrated works, the wrong tap will not have the same openess when the amplifier is asked to give its all. It is not uncommon, however, for the overall sound to be best on one tap and the power transfer to be best on another tap. This is merely a reflection of the complexity of the speaker load.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1147
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 09:04 pm:

Jan,

Please explain why certain small signal tubes "flash" when first powered up. I have had this with a few of the driver tubes (12AX7) in my amp.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3865
Registered: May-04

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 11:19 pm:

Is this the first time you use the tube or repeatedly when you power up the amplifier? If this is the first time you plug the tube into a circuit, the most common cause is a small bit of gas remains in the bottle and the flash you see is the vacuum being completed by burning that gas. The black and/or silver at the top of the tube is what remains of the gas (Argon, I think. Will have to check.) that has been heated to form the vacuum. The discoloration is the inert materials that are left behind.

If this happens frequently when you power up the amp, there could be several causes. If the amp has a slow start circuit, there could be a problem with arcing in the ciruit. The more common cause is still just some inert material being burned off as the tube reaches equilibrium. If the flash is minor and goes away I wouldn't be too concerned unless it is creating a signal through your speakers. If the whole tube botle glows blue as if gas is being burned in the tube, there may be a tube that is loosing vacuum. If the filament of the tube is flashing and glowing a hotter red than the other tubes, there is probably a resistor that has shifted value or a tube that is going to fail soon. Look at the amp in a darkened room to make certain all the filaments glow at the same level of red. Cherry red or orange is too hot; soft glowing red is correct on most amps.

If this is something that occurs and seems to be more than just burning off gas, I would call the dealer where you bought the amp and ask if they feel you should have the amp looked over.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3149
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:35 am:

Jan,

Many thanks for that description of what is going on. I shall have to read it again, and think about it. Also do some more comparisons of the 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm output from the amp. I listened to something quite different (a string quartet on CD) on the 4 Ohm late last night, and indeed it sounded more "open", as you predict. Wish I had time and space to experiment with different speakers and so on. I may try the KEFs, out of curiosity. Will have to get the others to go out for an hour or two.

There is still a trade-off, it seems to me, between clarity of speech and, as it were, emotional involvement in music. This seems very odd - I have always sought "Accuracy". On Saturday, watching TV on 8 Ohm, I was asked to turn the volume UP - unprecedented! This was because of indistinct dialogue with the respect to the Sony SS, to which we are accustomed. On the Prologue, speech is clearer on 4 Ohm tham 8 Ohm, but still not as crisp as with the S.S. Perhaps we are all used to exaggerated treble. [[BTW totally an aside - Did Sony EVER make tube amps? -I can't remember one]]

Really, the String Quartet on 4 Ohm Prologue Two was just luscious, dripping with interest and nuance -so much better than on the Sony. A bit like driving on tarmac, instead of concrete. Or unprotected you-know what compared with the insulated variety (KK in HFN uses this sort of crappy metaphor; I think he is boasting, and is probably insecure in that department).

Maybe we need two different systems: one for music and one for speech/radio/TV etc. It would be good to separate them, anyway. But I still have a difficult time understanding why that should be. As I have said several times, and I believe it, "Sound is sound". Whether or not it counts as music, and what sort, is in one's imagination, not in the air pressure waves. On this, I tend to agree with G-Man.

I think.

Interim conclusion; keep the Prologue, use 4 Ohm taps, buy a fire extinguisher, enjoy the music.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3150
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:39 am:

BTW Jan, the high-volume mild distortion of massed sopranos seemed to be LESS with 4 Ohm, too. Is this possible? Am I imagining things? It is so difficult to make a fair comparison....

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3151
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:50 am:

BTW 2, the US distributor sales pitch is on

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/view_category.asp?cat=36

I can wholly endorse their remarks on build quality. Amazing. I am now afraid my NAD player might blow away in the breeze, like a sheet of paper.

BTW 3, what happened to Taz? Taz...?

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2470
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:12 am:

The one thing you need to keep in mind John is that voices are generally in the
mid range area. Think about a tv and it's speaker system. They generally do not
get much bass or have much in the way of shimmering high end because for the
most part they do not need to, they need good solid midrange so the voices are
not overshadowed by other sounds.

So if your trying to use a good sounding stereo setup without a center channel
and the system is playing flat "unlike a tv" there's a good chance you may need
to turn up the volume to get the voices to be heard clearer.

When you listen to music the voices are quite loud as the singer is singing and
not being drowned out by the music.

So it very well may be the sony is exaggerating the midrange area where most
of your voices are coming from when listening to the tv. If that is the case then
the sony would make a much better amp for that purpose.

There are times when something that is not playing flat is more beneficial for a
certain application and a midrange heavy amp plus speaker system like most
tv's have is a great example. Just think about what type of speakers are in the
tv's you've seen, generally you have 1 fullrange driver that is rolled off at both of
the frequency extremes.

Or how about a PA system for doing announcments which is mainly carrying
voice material, you wouldn't call that a great hifi system would yu? But it will
do a better job of what is asked of it then a stereo system would.

So I wouldn't be concerened with which amp sounds better for your tv but which
sounds better for your music, as you said you may need/want a different setup
for each to do the things they are doing to best of there abilities. A stereo amp
and speaker systems needs are quite different from the needs of the TV!

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2471
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:18 am:

Also about the taps on the output of the amp.

I generally use the lower tap then the speakers I'm using. usually for an 8 ohm
speaker I use the 4 ohm tap. From what I've seemed to learn is your increasing
the damping factor for the amp and generally that is welcomed by the amp.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2472
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:51 am:

Rick basically the reason why a tube flashes and only when voltage is first applied
is because there are gasses in the tube which burn up instantly once the tube is
energized. If you shut the tube off and turn it on again fairly fast it won't flash
because the gas hasn't built back up again but if let sit and the gas builds up then
it will flash as the tube burns up this gas again.

Allmost all tubes do it at least a little if you look real close but tubes like
mullard and amperex do it quite a bit. My guess would be the materail the inards
are made from on those tubes give off more gas as the tubes metal cools down, then
when eneregiized again it burns up this gas.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1148
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 06:09 am:

Thanks for the explaination. Yes it only happens when voltage is first applied, and flashes very briefly.

John-Keep your eyes open. I'll take all the NOS Mullard's you can find. I'll send a bunch to Kegger. I think he's trying to corner the market in the Mid-West. LOL!

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3153
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 06:12 am:

Thank you, Kegger. That is a good way of looking at frequencies - I had not thought of that. However, I think it is the high frequencies that give most of the sibillants that make words intelligible. While the vowels are mostly mid-range or upper, most consonants contain high-frequency transients which we use all the time to distinguish between "shave" and "save"; "train" and "drain" and things like that. Classically-trained singers - all singers before microphones were invented - project their voices and exaggerate consonants so that they can be understood by someone litening a long way away; some consants fall off in energy with distance more than others. For example, they sometimes say "joy" as "choy". Also they trill "r"s often, for the same reason.

Anyhow, I am beginning to feel very comfortable with the PrimaLuna feeding the Quad ESLs through 4 Ohm taps. The Quad manual gives the curve of impedance plotted against frequency and it is like a mountain range, with 4 Ohms the bottom of a wide valley centred on 10 kHz. How they get "nominally 8 Ohms" from that I do not know. I shall have to think some more about Jan's distiction between different sorts of speaker loads. "Increasing the damping factor on the amp" is graphic and I think I understand that.

I think you, Kegger, and Jan, touched on the question of which taps to use, before.

I am learning things all the time.

Thanks, all! Where else would I get all this outstanding advice....?! The dealers I went to seemed to have time for customers, that's something. I shall go back and ask about these things. This all another reason to support dealers and not go mail-order. I have often found myself saying "friends on an audio internet forum tell me that...." Usually they agree, and have something specific to add concerning the gear under discussion.

BTW I have not seem any flashing tubes yet. Will look out for it. I like the gentle glow; it takes 30 seconds or so to come on.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3154
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 06:18 am:

Thanks, Rick, for the tip. Crossed post, again. Yes, I will look out for spares and replacements. I remember "Mullard" was the standard over here in the days when everything was valves. I must say I am not itching to start tube rolling. There is quite enough to think about with the standard set. However, I will take the cage off and try to see exactly what they are.

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3867
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:29 am:

John - Forget for a moment "accuracy" and think "enjoyable". Not to actually deviate from the sense of how did the original sound as much as how do I think this sounds. I remember when Kegger and I first began discussing tubes and got around to tube rolling, you made the comment "that way madness lies". I agree with reservations.

I don't know what the valves in the PrimaLuna sound like. Any amp is voiced to what the designer assumes is correct for the widest range of systems the amp might go into. The valves in your amp may be selected for a bit of warmth that will not change unless the valves are changed. Fortunately (depending on how you judge tube rolling) changing the voicing of a valve amp is only a tube or so away. The replacement of a 12AX7 might easily bring the amp up to the standards you are desiring without altering the basic nature of the amplifier. As you have likely noticed on this thread, the change of a tube or two can make some stunning alterations. Some input from 2c, the shop where you borrowed the amp, or even the manufacturer might be helpful here since I personally don't know the specifics of this amplifier. This is not a sales pitch for keeping the amplifier merely a possible way to achieve what you desire from what appears to be a highly rated amplifier.

At this point I honestly can't tell you why you are hearing what you describe. It seems to go somewhat against the reviews I've read of the unit. Though I don't remember a review of the amplifier using ESL speakers of any sort.

I can suggest several things:
The cables might be worth upgrading. What are you using?
The room itself. While working well with the Sony, there might be a bit of difference between the two amps that is being spotlighted by the valve amp. Repositioning the speakers might solve this, though I realize in the present house this is difficult to achieve on a permanent basis. But this is a room you essentially "plopped" the speakers into, is it not?
Of course, the easiest thing to do is blame the Sony. I won't do that, it is a well made amplifier. But I will point out the Sony ES line has a sound that is noticeably unlike most other, non-Japanese products. It only requires a minimal lift in the presence region to have customers saying the amplifier is "so clear".

Overall I'm getting the impression the PrimaLuna is geting you more of what you desire and the problem is somewhat minimal on a decent source. I'm assuming you listened to the amplifier at the dealer before you brought it home. Did you experience any of the muddiness through the midrange when you listened in the shop?

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2473
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:57 am:

Rick did you find a stash of mullards?
If so I would certainly take some!

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3871
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:12 pm:

Yeah, Rick, if you want to get rid of any of those nasty ol' NOS tubes with their dirty boxes and those heavy, heavy plates and grids you know you can count on us to help out a fellow Old Dog. I mean come on! Mullard?! RCA is much easier to spell and shorter when telling someone what you're listening to. Mullard!? They're going to think you're listening to a duck!!! Rick, just think of this as those of us who care about you being willing to take this burden on ourselves.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2474
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:20 pm:

Well said Jan and I hope rick understands it's all for his benefit!

__________________________________
I underatand what your saying John and if you read just about any hifi review one
of the the things they do is listen to female voices to see how the sibillance is
and a good hifi system will not have over emphasys in that area where many lesser
systems will sound very bad and give you the extended sssss's. That is the very upper
end of the midrange and the start of the high end as some mens voices range from the
end of the bass region into the mid. And that should again be right where a PA system
or a tv should have it's best frequency response, in that middle area rolled off at the
extremes, probably about 1000hz to 10k, not good for hifi.

Anyway you get the point and happy listening.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3155
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:17 pm:

Thanks, Kegger. I take your point. It is a good one. Yes, the shrieking female voice is something some of us might have to go into detox from, before we come fully to this higher plane of listening wisdom.

Thanks also for the understanding, Jan.

Many questions; I shall not write another ramble. I did not audition the PL in the shop - it was Saturday afternoon, I just about had the time, and could not see much point since their stuff was all different from mine. They had Quad 988s which are supposed to be close to the ESL 63s, but they were not rigged up. Their room was huge, too. I know it would have taken me many hours to get used to that. I had a longish chat, they boxed it up, and I hailed a cab. I had to lug it a couple of blocks at the other end. Man, is it heavy.

I am actually delighted with the Prologue Two. It sounds much more natural and musical. The Sony was bought without much thought, in a foreign land, just because I needed a replacement amp, saw it in a window, and thought it was a good buy in Watts per unit cash, and a reputable make. I know better, now! It was being cut off from trusted dealers and friends whose opinions count. I think I shall just write that off. Actually, it was superceded by the NAD 5.1 T760 for most purposes. Whether that sounds equally shrill - I shall have to listen again, when I get it back. It did not notice much difference between those two amps, Sony ES and NAD, in stereo mode, to be honest.

In time I am inclined to think the family can have the NAD and all the KEFs, and the sub, for movies, and I shall regress into a stereo world with Quad, PrimaLuna, and my Rega P3, and perhaps a (SA)CD player. This is assuming we can get enough domestic lebensraum.

If I am still agonizing, it is around the cost "is it worth it?" - and you guys can't answer that, I know!

The Quads are toed-in about 30� and a little way in from the end wall, either side of a curtain, drawn over a window, in front of which is this naff LCD TV. Talk about a clash of styles with the Prologue Two.... Also, I have found the Quads benefit from the front feet each being on a stack of four 2p pieces, tilting them up a few degrees. I may investigate stands, eventually. I promised a pic and maybe will be able to do this in a couple of weeks.

I still think the Quads are the only speakers I shall ever want. Probably I am slowly discovering that they reveal too much of an inferior, top-heavy amplifier, designed to grab attention with its bright sound. I listened to the CD reissue of the famous Elgar cello concerto recording. Jeez, it is is SO much better with the Prologue Two. The top register of the cello was screaming like a chalk on glass on the Sony, and, again, the brass was just painful.

Here's another rub, though - Mrs A is in "well, if that's what you want" mode.

Rick, fellow family man - how do the Barneses relate to Jolida and Spendor? Do they listen? Or is it watching a passing train again.....?!

Must keep a sense of proportion in all this (repeat over to oneself many times).

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 1150
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:33 pm:

Jan-Kegger,

If and when I find that stash of Mullards, It will be my pleasure to share the wealth. You are all too kind not to let me carry that burden alone. If John comes through, we're in.

John,

I think Jan is on the right track. I don't think your problem is with the amp or speakers. Now that you have come to believe all amps don't sound the same, it's time to understand all wire does not sound the same. I think you once stated you use the interconnects that come with the component? I think just a good pair of interconnects will solve the problem. You now have gear that can be maximized by upgraded wire. If you are still skeptical, I'll ship you a pair of interconnects.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3156
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:35 pm:

BTW there are currently five consumer reviews on this forum:

http://ecoustics.audioreview.com/pscAudioReview/Amplification/Integrated+Amplifiers/Prologue,Two/PRD_324081_2717crx.aspx#reviews

I gather I can get and install a phono board, for one of the inputs, in due course. That's a plus.

Just to try and lighten up, here is a pic from the UK distributor mentioned above, somewhere.

Upload

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 3157
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 01:45 pm:

Thanks again, Rick. I have recently installed some very short (0.5 m) quality-looking, sturdy, but unbranded interconnects with gold plugs etc. This could be another factor; I don't know. My tuner has a DIN output, and a DIN-to-RCA adapter. BTW the gold sockets and speaker terminals on the PL2 are a work of art. See below. Source, as above:
http://www.pistolmusic.co.uk/product_info.php?product_id=2

Upload

Gold Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3872
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 02:29 pm:

I had wondered whether you had seen those reviews and assumed you had done some research.

"My Sony XA7es was driving me crazy with its digital hardness, so the Primaluna just helps take that bite out of the digital and keeps me engaged without a headache from long listening."

"And if you like to tweak your hi-fi gear, there is nothing more funnier than a tube amplifier :-))
Let me be clear: the original tubes sound great already. I simply have had some fun by tuning the sound of it with some tube swapping experiment (and for a couple of them I eventually went back to the original tubes )."

Does anyone else have any experience with the KT-88 valve? As I've stated the tube will sound like the circuit it is placed within, but I've always found the KT-88, and most particularly its relative the 6550, to be a bit less appealing than a KT-66 or EL-34. A bit of brute force strength compared to the sweeter sounds from the smaller valves. I may be muddling the waters even more for John, but I'm beginning to feel the specific tube selection might be worth looking into.

John - I think my advice is mostly as I posted above. I would spend some time listening in the shop before I purchased unless there is a generous trade policy. Or unless I am misreading your posts. The time to go beyond generic cables has come when you own valves and ESL's, John. You need to know what manufacturer's brand is on your cables. Even if it is Black and Decker, the extension cord transformare speaker cable which the US Quad rep is stated to use for shows. I'm certain the shop can assist you with some value priced options. Don't use the cables as tone controls or filters but instead as a talented espresso barista to eliminate the undesirable elements and enhance the delicate flavors of the original brew. Think Florence, John, Naples, Bologna and Turin. Dining at the foot of Monte Blanc in Susa, the town of my ancestors.

SCREW THE HIFI, TAKE A TRIP TO ITALY!!!

Sorry, that just came out. Personal desires got the better of me.

Go for the amp, John, you won't regret the adventure.

Two Cents

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 616
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 04:03 pm:

John A.,

I don't have much to add to Rick, Kegger and Jan's comments. They have much more knowledge and experience than I with tubes. I can share my personal experience with the Primaluna though.

Regarding the speaker taps, if you have the same instruction manual as I, it recommends you experiment with the different taps despite your speaker rating. When the amp was breaking in, I actually preferred the sound using the 8 ohm taps (my speakers have a 4 ohm load), which helped with the slightly dry and hard sound during break-in. It sounded more tube-like on the 8 ohm taps. After about 60 hours, I tried switching over to the 4 ohm taps. There was noticeable improvement in the bass and the amp just seemed to have a better grip on the music, especially rock. I now stick to the 4 ohm taps.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the stock tubes sound very good. They are Electro Harmonix 12ax7 and 12au7 tubes and Genalex-type KT88s. My sense is that the stock tubes were selected to give the best performance at a price point appropriate for an "entry level" amp. The N.A. distributor also recommends the following set of tubes for those inclined to roll: Sylvania 12ax7, Mullard 12au7, and Svetlana KT88. I've had the amp for a few months now and have been satisfied with the stock tubes, but now curiosity is getting the better of me. I'm going to start rolling tubes, starting with the 12ax7's. After all, the ability to tailor the sound to suit your taste is one of the benefits of a tube amp. Someday, I'll try EL34's, which, as Jan mentioned, are supposed to give a more a more tubey, "sweeter" sound than the KT88's. I've been listening to a lot of rock music lately, so the punch and bass of the KT88's seem to fit the bill. If I start listening to more chamber music and female jazz vocals, I'll be tempted to switch over to the EL34's.

Finally, I completely support going with separate home theater and stereo systems, if you have the room. I've got my P2 powering my VPI tt, CAL cd player, and Denon universal player to my AP speakers in one room. In another room, I have the telly, NAD receiver, Toshiba DVD player, and KEF surround speakers. There is something psychologically right about separating pure music from the AV stuff. But that's me.