Archive through March 13, 2005

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1505
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 02:33 pm:

Larry

Going by the connections, that Yamaha contraption will not do SACD or DVD-A.

Relevant Product Info

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 736
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 02:50 pm:

My Rantz: Interesting that you mention (again) the SPL meters. When I got the Mordaunt-Short sub, and the B&W 705s, I also got "set-up" CDs from each company. OK, the B&W disc just came a week or so ago - after I'd registered the speakers.

Anyway - the discs contain phase setups, and tone bursts of all sorts. On the audio "intro" portion of both discs, it is made quite plain that the companies would wish you to use SPL meters to set up the speakers initially.

as I don't have such, I have just tried to balance them out aurally - with, I think, fairly good success. But with my room anomalies, I'm re-thinking - and shall probably get a meter. Heck, I've got all these extra quarters and nickels bouncing around - might as well spend them! (grin)

On second thought - think I'll call my nutzy friend in LA - ask him to send me one of his meters "on loan." Then see if he can lose it under the car seat, as he did my "loaner" speaker cables! Yep. . . but who knows, he might actually get it sent! Stay tuned. . .

More anon. . .

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 737
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 02:51 pm:

OOPS - just happened to remember, he someimes reads this forum.

HEY, VERNE! SEND ME ONE OF YOUR SPL METERS, OK?

that might do it. . .

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 738
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 02:55 pm:

MR - crossed posts - again. Thanx for the added comments on the Yamaha "thang." guess it's only for DVD movies, eh? Sounds to skittish for me, but the idea is rather amazing. . .

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2870
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 05:03 pm:

The other thing to say about re-setting channel levels from disc to disc: what is the reference?

A test tone at the beginning? Not so many discs have these.

The music itself? But it changes, itself, from second to second.

Hifi should be like a gentleman's clothes: correctly set up, then forgotten about completely.

Show me a fellow who is always looking in the mirror, straightening his tie, combing hs hair etc, and I'll you show someone who is probably adjusting the channels during the national anthem, instead of standing to attention.

[Element of parody there]

So I agree with MR; "set it and forget it".

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1506
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 05:15 pm:

Larry,

I got up for a while earlier (obviously from the wrong side of the bed) and turned on the 'puter for a few minutes before hopping back and trying to get back some lost sleep - with little success.

I hope the day finds Mer and yourself fighting fit and that you might also hear some news about your Yamaha. Abscence surely makes the heart grow fonder - I believe that applies to music second to love (oh gush)!

A final comment on the spl meter:

I have found the need to use this a few times in the past month. Once when we purchased the 601's to replace the JBL wall mounts, next when we replaced the 601's with the 602's and finally the other day, after again repositioning the 602's and some furniture to accommodate the stands. The last readings I did in a hurry and later, when I sat down to have a relaxing hour or so with my music, I noticed things were not quite right. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the surround just seemed a little off. I got the meter out again and took the time to allow it's needle to settle with the test tones and found the original readings were not accurate - in other words, were done with too much haste. One needs to allow a good few seconds or more to get an accurate reading.

Anyhow, once this task was completed, I put a disc back in the player, sat back, and everything sounded as it should: wonderful!

I rest my case - now I just need to rest me LOL!

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1507
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 05:30 pm:

John A

We posted together. Thanks for seeing my point. And thank Eric, I seldom wear a tie, and I try not to look in the mirror to often as I only become more despondent when noticing even more hair loss. Even standing at attention is becoming an event rather than a ritual these days. I mean I play the anthem less often than I should. [grin]

This age thing is happening too fast. First the ears go, then you have to go out and buy spl meters, then . . .

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 05:35 pm:

pedant (n): learned bore.

We apparently have a different meaning for words here. I would greatly appreciate not being called boorish. So what's the beef? You want your system one way and I want mine set another way. There seems to be a consensus that we each have our own likes and dislikes. We don't really listen to the same music so why should we want the same results? I made my comments about the meter because you seemed quite adamant in your post that an SPL meter was essential. I have my reasons for not believing it to be essential to the success of a HT or music system. You are free to purchase and use whatever suits you. If you find your system sounds better after this set up, more power to you. If you like your music without ever changing the levels, Okey-Dokey. I asked whether anyone else felt the same.

In reading reviews of surround discs I see a few writer's mention adjusting levels when they feel it necessary to enjoy the disc. I wondered if anyone else did the same thing to alter what is given when the levels didn't seem correct to their ear. Since I just haven't fallen in love with surround, I don't have that many discs I play in that format. For movies and TV though, I change the levels to suit what I want to hear as I do find little consensus among engineers as to what levels should be used. It is a bit of the same problem engineers have always faced in mixing sound. Do you mix for the best system available and say screw the majority who have the system from WalMart that gets overwhelmed by the amount of bass provided or do you mix for the mainstream market and have the guy with the best system never hear the best sound quality.

There was no slight to your hearing or logic intended. My apologies if you took it that way. I do trust my hearing quite a bit since I made my living with it for many years. I know when I can tolerate something and when I can't. I've personally never found a meter useful for this type of system set up beyond what my ears can tell me. As to why "professionals" use meters, I could give an answer but it would be very pedantic and of little interest to the discussion. Can we just be satisfied that some of it is for show and some of it is because they have a reference level to set against.

I believe I got an answer to my question about levels. I wasn't looking for a disagreeement of any kind. Like you said, Rantz - "I can't tell you what to believe - I can only go (from) my own experiences. Experiment ..."

Now, at the risk of being offensive, I am curious about one other thing about the SPL meter. Once you've set the levels, if they don't change once they're in preset (or you just don't move them), do you pull out the meter occasionally to check whether they've changed? Do you ever change your mind about the levels you've chosen? I'm not looking for an argument, just some information.

Kegger - John's comment, "But then we get back to Mercury and three-channel stereo. If that improves on the Quad sound-stage ... ", reminds me you purchsed a SACD of a three channel Mercury recording. You were holding off comment until you got your center speaker in place. Now that your system is up and running, have you come to any conclusions about the Mercury recordings?

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1510
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 06:28 pm:

"Pedant"

The Concise Macquarie Dictionary: one who makes an excessive or tedious show of learning or learned precision; one who possesses mere book learning without practical wisdom. Pedantic, pedantical etc etc.

Okay, not applicable. Now I don't know about Texas but the use of the word here has become a bit loose and generally means 'fussy' - so I used the term to state that you may be fussier in getting the sound right when I might tend to be more into the music.

So I do apologise in saying you put words in my mouth when in fact according to your meaning of the said word you did not.

Do I pull my meter out occassionally. Well, in having to confess that I do indeed have a meter, the answer is yes, but only in the case of a change in circumstance - change in furniture position, speaker position and other differences in room dynamics.

One other thing (and the Denon manual recommends this): I use the Marantz receiver's decoders (and level settings) for movies and keep the Denon (universal player) with its settings for hi-res surround playback. This helps to adjust the bass management to suit both DVD-A and SACD.

About on-the-fly setting changes - I think the only time any setting change is necessary (imho) is the bass (lfe) on some movies - though this is simply adjustable with the sub's volume control.

My argument with the meter is aimed more towards music. When we play the normal old 'cd' we simply whack it on, adjust the volume and listen - the channel levels are set, there are only two. So in the case of multiple channels, when other factors come into play, room dynamics and so forth, there is a need for uniformity of levels at the listening postion. I know you know this - I'm not trying to tell you your business, but more to explain the point for others as well. IMHO with the hi-res surround formts (as with quality digital surround dvd-v in general) the channel distribution would be based on the fact that all channels are set to uniform levels at the listening position.

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2283
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 07:08 pm:

"Kegger - John's comment, "But then we get back to Mercury and
three-channel stereo. If that improves on the Quad sound-stage ... ",
reminds me you purchsed a SACD of a three channel Mercury recording.
You were holding off comment until you got your center speaker in
place. Now that your system is up and running, have you come to any
conclusions about the Mercury recordings?"

I was waiting for that to be raised again!
I'm sorry but I just haven't gotten to it yet.
I've got so many things going so many directions, I have to get to it.

____________________________________________________________
As far as the meter thing goes I do not find it a necessity but mearly handy!

The way I use the thing is when I first setup a room I set the channels
level from playing a source from my dvd player (I have a few disks with tones)
At about 90db for everything then I listen for a couple weeks to see what I like
changed if anything. In my room "for me" this turned out to be 90db mains
and 92 db the rest. So now when I change components or move furniture I can run
the test again and set everything back to "my" defaults rather quickly.

I also like the meter for piece of mind. If I setup my sytem and 1 channel
is like 6db lower than the other that has the same speaker and amp I can
feel pretty confident that something is wrong but if there say, 2-3 db apart
then I figure the system is probably fine and it's just the room ecoustics.
And I don't have to wonder if my ears are telling the truth and "exactly" how far off it is.

It can also be used as a tool to try and even out a rooms ecoustics.
By moving things around and testing with the meter you see what your changing.
It's much easier to tell with a meter exactly what your doing then guessing
with your ears and maybe fooling yourself with a placebe effect of thinking this
should change that. Not saying that anyone can't do it with there ears but with
the meter there's not much thinking or guessing, you just know.

So for me the meter is a tool for taking precise measurements that "I" can feel
safe are accurate and even with respect to the other channels in my system.
Not just using the meter to say this is what it should be so I'll set it there.
But more for creating a reference point "for me"!
Then once this reference point is made I can tweak from there in 1db increments.

I just find it a very handy and inexpensive tool!

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1511
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 07:29 pm:

Agreed Kegger!

Jan, you said:

"My point was the use of a meter to adjust individual levels when you are not setting them to any fixed position is more dog and pony show than all my speaker set up instructions could hope for. Also if there is no real standard, my ears are as good an arbitter of personal preference as any meter."

I don't understand this comment - I am setting them to a fixed postion. And the real standard is having all levels set equally using the test tone as a reference when there is no test disc on hand. A real good ear may get these balances right some of the time, but a meter will save time in doing so and give accuracy which becomes obvious with listening. In using the test tones and adjusting across the speakers there have been instances where I could swear they are all at the same level but the meter tells me I have been up to a few db's out one way or another. So personally, I'll stand by the meter.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 08:33 pm:

My comment refers to a standardized tone level that is matched with each source/disc. When using a tape from another theater or studio, I always requested a 1kHz signal at 0dB/Vu be placed on the tape so I could set levels and align my equipment appropriately from that tone. When a cinema sets up their equipment to run a film, they use a similar tone to adjust for levels. This is particularly true when the film is shown in a THX theater as the standards for THX demand levels for each channel be matched, and overall gain be set, to an approved level for the film.

The idea of setting levels in a HT system came from the THX systems that were popular in the late '90's. At that point in time there were few standards in the consumer market concerning playback of films. To assure the customer they could achieve the full measure of the system they paid for, the levels were set with a meter. This was a bit of overkill in my opinion since so very few films were THX certified and most systems didn't fall into the THX certs from source to speakers. In the days before the remastering of soundtracks became a more common practice, the overemphasized EQ of a film mastered for theatrical release could be quite distracting and fatiguing on a THX balanced system.

Mostly the level set trickled down to the lower price ranges and became a way to give the customer what they paid for - a dog and pony show in many respects. It also provided a way to get a customer with mismatched speakers or odd placement into the ball park of getting good sound. It allowed easy set up but not necessarily enjoyable set up. Admittedly a meter can show a more precise level when the customer has mismatched speakers and cannot discern what is happening when the sound they hear is quite different from speaker to speaker. In this instance a meter allows the client to always return to a given level no matter how far out of whack they've adjusted the system the night before.

My instructions to customers were always to get the system set at a level they felt sounded best over the widest range of material that covered films, tapes, laserdiscs/DVD and TV programing and then they could make adjustments from that point to bring the sound to a pleasant listening level. Presets for these functions later became common and allowed the client to quickly alter the level set for a particular preference. If they wanted more bass for intergalactic explosions they could punch in what they wanted. If they needed more or less ambience to hear the dialog during a rain storm on screen, they could get that also. I think the prevalence of these presets on todays equipment can mean a system, in common practice, that is virtually never at a "consistent" level. This isn't a reference to a "disco" setting but the desire to make the sound pleasing to what the listener expects to hear.

The problem is compounded by the advent of hi-rez since the amount of ambience on any one recording may be quite different from what is on the next disc. Read a few interviews with engineers and producers and you will see how surround is handled as a still very open field of experimentation. Though SACD and DVD-A have some suggested settings for speakers, they don't conform to the speaker placement for cinema. Even the rear speaker type is different for film vs. music. So the listener who uses the same system for both audio and video has already made a compromise in their system set up. Secondly, not all SACD engineers conform to the same system set up. Speakers are used in different fashion by different studios and the listener who really wants to get the most out of their playback of these discs will have to have an entirely different speaker set up for a Telarc or Chesky disc than when they play a more conventional SACD. With engineers using their own taste to set the amount of ambience on a disc or to adjust where an instrument occurs in space on a disc such as DSOTM, there would appear to be nothing that suggests a common level set can do much more than give an approximation of what was intended by the producer and even less regarding the actual sound heard at the performance.

I do find many of the over produced surround recordings of music to be distracting. As with the choice of levels to get an enjoyable performance on cinema, I prefer to use the on the fly adjustments provided by the processor to get to what I consider an appropriate level for surrounds, center and sub. Since my level set can change from one source to another and one disc to another, I prefer to keep my settings as nothing more than a personal reference point, i.e. I know that the sub is usually set at 0 db and the surrounds at -3dB. When I raise or lower the levels for a particular disc, I can always go back to those points easily; but they represent little more than a starting point for me.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1512
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 09:43 pm:

Yes, unless the bank balance is spilling over, there is a compromise for movie and music sound. A room for each and associated quality equipment would be for most a pipe dream. Though the compromise may not need to be so significent in the home. There are decent speakers around that work exceptionally well for both, though the set-up can be challenging depending on the space available and layout.

My speaker set up is somewhere between the recommended sacd set-up and the dd and dts recommendtions. Not ideal, but the sound is excellent nevertheless. The Telarc and Chesky discs are an exception and in most part, and won't be appearing in my library (unless the recording is very special).

The biggest problem in this whole surround set-up thing is the need for the OSD for most adjustments. Listening to music and having a display turned on is a distraction to say the least and to go through the pains of turning equipment on and off for the 'odd' recording is not my way of musical enjoyment. I have a couple of 4 channel jazz sacds and find them disappointing - I usually play them in two channel for some improvement, I've yet to hear a Chesky MC recording but, again, I'll need to use the OSD to turn the filter off, and set the speakers to large as to avoid the bass crossover - a pain in the flowport!

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 09:55 pm:

Why the need for the OSD? What I'm using are the on the fly controls on the remote for the processor. These are for only the basic adjustments I want during playback. The Chesky and Telarcs offer a fairly large amount of music I would like to listen to. They do present a bit of a challenge in that when I'm dissatisfied with the sound, I wonder if the problem is I cannot follow the Telarc set up without getting behind my system and rearranging my speakers. Since I don't use DVD-A I am curious about how much OSD it demands of a listener to make adjustments and how much of this varies from player to player. When I briefly had the Toshiba 4960 DVD/SACD player I found it extremely inconvenient to operate in any other than the factory default modes. That, among other problems, was what prompted my returning it to the seller.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1513
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 10:18 pm:

I'm listening to Chris Rea's "Road to Hell" [and in stereo] through the 602's right now while on lunch. I'm still running 'em in - darn good stuff! Haven't heard this one in a good while. Anyway . .

As the hi-res stuff is analogue all adjustments other than volume are done through the player set-up menu. One can change from MC to 2 channel, turn off the digital section and display but speaker levels (this can be done on the receiver also but still needs osd), sizes, filters and crossovers need the osd to follow what one is doing. I suppose I could learn to use it like a blind man - but if I happen to get half blind while listening I'll forget it all again.

Actually, Telarc does have a few jazz recordings I'd like, but haven't really investigated their sound options as yet because they are difficult to get here still.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 10:38 pm:

Good E.C., this sounds more and more like a plot for a scifi movie where the population is convinced they cannot live with out their OSD where subliminal messages can be transmitted. It can only be guessed what function the remotes implanted in everyone's hands are actually performing.

Any comments here, John?

Silver Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 137
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 10:39 pm:

Just saw this ad on Audiogon for S3/5

S3/5

Text of ad:
Classic spendor 3/5 monitors in excellent condition. Birdseye.
Sounds great. Only selling because I spend more time listening to my Maggies.

Larry,

I haven't done any speaker cable comparison yet. The Maggies are still connected with the HD cable. I only got the HD connected late Monday night....Tuesday night I watched TV and only did 1 hour of listening with the Maggies. Tonight, I worked late and didn't feel like switching cables so I've just been listening for the past 2.5 hours. Just simple listening, no measurements, no spl meters, just sitting down in the ole listening chair. Having said that, I do think it would be beneficial for me to get some type of measuring device so I can understand what a "rolloff" sounds/looks like.

What Maggie model is your friend thinking of trying? Hope he likes them as much as I do.

There can never be too many guitars. :-)

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1514
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 11:09 pm:

"It can only be guessed what function the remotes implanted in everyone's hands are actually performing."

Fertilising the pods!

Re: the OSD

Still I haven't yet had the need to make changes on the fly when listening to hi-res surround. Even movies for the most part seems consistant except for a few of the 'b' grades which we try to avoid - though there are some surprises among them.

SM - no there can never be too many guitars unless on a country music stage. LOL!

Are you still going to India?

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 739
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 11:16 pm:

SM - wonderful ad! Thanx - and hope that your selling capers finally get over and done with!

I doubt that you need SPL meters for speaker wire testing - so don't worry about that. Just worry about the sound - if you can tell a difference, and what that difference might be.

I'm also a bit concerned about those speaker "clips" on the Mac - be sure NOT to let any loose wires stray out of the liddle holes. A short is no fun! Still pushing pin connectors for you - but just at the Mac-end of the wires.

Friend is considering Maggies - period. Doesn't yet know what model. Will post any progress on his part.

There are always too many guitars - if they are amplified. Acoustic guitars - you are right, there can never beeee toooo mannnnny.

No word on the Yammie yet - so I get my CD "kicks" by listening on the computer sound system. OK, in its way, but not B&W!!! Still, it's not bad to have the music as I work away at editing dumb-n-dull research papers and such. Will Academics Never Learn? To write plain, cogent sentences, I mean. Sigh. Prob-lee not. Talk about your Pedantry!!! (grin)

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 740
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 11:34 pm:

SM - well, I had this nice response - and when I hit Enter - it exited! Hmmm. . .

Anyway - great ad! Seems you're in good company!

On speaker wire testing - go with your ears - you don't need meters for that. But again I urge you toward pin connectors at the Mac-end of the wires. Those pesky wire-strands do tend to stray, and short out thangs.

There are always too many amplified guitars - but never too many acoustic guitars. (fists up!!)

My friend just mentioned Maggies - no special model. I'm urging him toward your MMGs. But don't know what he'll do.

Jan V. - man, do I wish I didn't have to use OSD to change most of the sound-settings! But I do, so I tend to try to keep everything all tidy and neat. The NAD has presets, so I can use one speaker setup for sound, the other for movies. That helps - but I go back to the screen every week, just to make sure the settings are as I programmed them. A chore. . .

We can just see SM in a Sari - perhaps purple with some gold piping? Ah, yes - jasmine in her hair, and man-servants at her feet. Heck, just like home! (grin)

The Raj was not all bad. Take a tour of "free" India and you might agree with some ex-CIA friends of mine who were posted there - and hated most every minute of it. But SM will only be there a short while - and inside, out of most of the smell! good for SM! You'll come back smelling like curry.

Note: the above was written by an old Colonialist at heart. The Mother Country gave up too soon. And now Amerika is trying - badly - to pick up where Britain left off. Sigh. . .

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 741
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 11:36 pm:

Hmmm - I see my first post magically re-appeared. Strange. Sorry - don't know what happened.

Silver Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 138
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 07:35 am:

Larry,

I know you don't need spl meters to test speaker wires. I guess lumping that comment into the same paragraph where I talked about speaker wire testing was misleading. My main point, which I've made before, is that I don't really know what things like "rolloff" mean and what that sounds like. Perhaps a measuring device would help?

MR,

You were the one who said too much guitar was "monotonous". I was just offering my differing opinion. :-)

You know, I thought about it and I realized you haven't like a single musical recommendation (Beck, Tift, JJ) I've made so I should just stop trying. As Larry would say, <sigh>.

Country Music Haters,

Once, again, I must take exception with across the board disparaging of country music. To be sure, most of the modern country is a load of c r a p. Of course, there are loads of c r a p in all musical genres. But, "real" country music (i.e. Johnny Cash, Loretta Lynn, Emmylou Harris, Hank Williams etc) is real music and is no less important in its cultural impact than some of the other music referred to in this forum. You don't have to like it, just show it a little respect.

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 743
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 08:00 am:

SM - G-day, and happy Thursday to you. As to the SPL meters, which are being rather thoroughly discussed these dayz - well, again, you wouldn't use those to enable you to see/hear rolloff. They just measure sound pressure levels.

I'll leave the tech comments to Kegger, Jan V., et al - but rolloff basically is just the point where a speaker stops or reduces in sound level certain frequencies. You could say your subwoofer "rolls off" at 100 Hz - meaning basically it stops reproducing sound above that frequency. Usually in steps, not suddenly. Jan and Kegger - pick it up here, please!!!

Personally, I have "some" respect for "some" of most kinds of music - except those forms which some (not me) call "music" such as hip-hop and rap.

Heck, I don't have respect for some classical music, either! Twelve-tone music, for example, is a fine intellectual exercise - but little more than that. That is a great example, SM, of what you refer to as a "load of c rap." Right-oh.

Closing crescendo (allegro vivace, please) I hereby show some respect for some country music, but I still think there are too many stinkin' electric guitars! Where is Willie Nelson when we need him - and his wunnerful, beat-up acoustic guitar! Yes! (Cymbal crash, applause, please)
(GRIN)

Sem

Silver Member

Username: Sem

New York
USA

Post Number: 431
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 08:31 am:

quote:
I'm listening to Chris Rea's "Road to Hell" [and in stereo] through the 602's right now while on lunch. I'm still running 'em in - darn good stuff! Haven't heard this one in a good while.

My Rantz, now that's a coincidence, I was listening to Chris Rea's cd, "Expresso Logic" on the way to work this morning. I also have "Road to Hell," as well as a few other cds by him. I really enjoy his music and his, at times, gruff voice. Its the kind of voice you'd get from chain-smoking filterless Camels, I would guess.

Silver Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 139
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 09:31 am:

Larry,

Happy Thursday to you, Sir. Now, please note, I said "measuring device" not SPL meter. Maybe some one can tell me what devices help people like me who don't know what sounds you would hear at what frequencies and how to determine where things like rolloff occur.

You wrote:

SM - G-day, and happy Thursday to you. As to the SPL meters, which are being rather thoroughly discussed these dayz - well, again, you wouldn't use those to enable you to see/hear rolloff. They just measure sound pressure levels.

I'll leave the tech comments to Kegger, Jan V., et al - but rolloff basically is just the point where a speaker stops or reduces in sound level certain frequencies. You could say your subwoofer "rolls off" at 100 Hz - meaning basically it stops reproducing sound above that frequency. Usually in steps, not suddenly. Jan and Kegger - pick it up here, please!!!

So, how do you know the sound stops or rolls off at certain frequencies, beyond looking at the specs of the speakers? I have heard you and others talk about rolloff on occasion as if you are actually hearing the rolloff at a certain frequency and I always wonder "how do they know that?" Must be the golden ears I've heard mentioned. I understand the definition of rolloff but I don't understand how you hear it.

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2284
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 10:11 am:

I don't have a lot of time at work being behind a firewall and
having to connect to my home system to get out to the net!

But the easiest way to explain or hear roloff would be if you've
ever used an equalizer and turned down the frequencies in the low
end would be rolling off the lows or turned down high frequencies
would be rolling off the highs at whatever db you choose on the eq.

you do the same thing to a certain extent with the bass and treble
controls on your equipment.

As it would seem larry would prefer the highs in his system rolled
off somewhat.

It's an aquired learning that over time playing with these adjustments
or building things where you roll off frequencies you tend to get a
feel for the roll off and what is bass heavy or midrange present or
extended treble or the extreme of bright!

But an equalizer would be the easiest way to experience it and hear
what certain frequencies sound like.
I have an eq which sends a pink noise tone out my speakers then is
measured by a microphone calibrated to the eq that will show how the
frequency response of your system compares to flat in a given room.

"pink noise" covering the full range of tones accross the board flat.

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 746
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 10:47 am:

Kegger: thanks for stepping up to the plate. Good hit, sir!

SM - if you really want to see rolloff you'll have to buy/rent an oscilloscope - you know what they are. You'd have to do some pretty fancy hook-ups to the speakers - but then you could see the various frequencies, and by sending through various tones, you could see when the green line changed from wavy to flat - or, when the tone ceased to be produced.

A lot of work for something that is of little consequence other than dealing with subwoofer settings. Your Maggies don't rolloff on top until they're beyond your hearing range - and they rolloff on the bottom about, what, 80Hz? Put a subwoofer on with a top-end rolloff of 100Hz and you've got the spectrum covered.

Rolloff is simply the point, or gradual slope, at which speakers stop reproducing sound. Kegger is quite right - about the only way to hear it is to use an equalizer.

When we talk of rolloff, we're just comparing speakers and how they produce a given frequency. Are you concerned about any particular rolloff problem? If so - I'm sure Kegger will step up to the plate and hit a home run for you.

In closing (mercifully) yes, most of us read the manufacturer's spec sheets to determine rolloff. Or read speaker reviews in, say, Stereophile, where they use - and often print pictures of - their oscilloscope readings. Don't know if the Maggies ever got tested by Stereophile, but if so, you may see rolloff scope pics there.

Hope it was helpful? Thanks again, Kegman. . .

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 747
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 10:52 am:

SM - one other small point, please - in referring to Kegger's comment that I like to "roll off" my highs. Yep - in my room, and with many of my older CDs - I turn down the treble control several dbs. Diminishes the highs - doesn't kill them, though - and thus makes for a more balanced sound - for me. Can't see the difference, but surely can hear it.

And on your sub or amp - if you read specs - you will see that there is a 24, 18 or 12 db-per-octave "rolloff." that means that the amp or sub essentially turns down the sound gradually, instead of simply cutting it off at, say, 80Hz.

If my amp is set to 80Hz lo rolloff, and my sub set to 100 Hz hi-end rolloff - the amp turns down the sound, and the sub turns down its sound reproduction gradually - centered on that or those frequencies. Cross-fading, we'd call it in broadcasting. Hope that helps?

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2285
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 11:28 am:

I had forgot to add another key factor in the eq that I
have with the pink noise generator and the microphone is
the "spectrum analyzer" on the unit so it can show you on
it's screen what your measuring in 2db increments with a
range of 10db + or - of flat.
It starts at 20hz and goes to 16k with 20 bands.

After testing many speakers and finding the right other
gear and placement of the unit I feal pretty confident in
it's ability to give a fairly accurate reading.

Not on par with an osciloscope but still a nice tool for
building speakers or testing other equipment.
I find it excspecialy handy in designing or redesigning a
crossover for a speaker! You not only hear the changes you
are making but can see the results also after measuring.

Silver Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 140
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 12:12 pm:

A lot of work for something that is of little consequence other than dealing with subwoofer settings. Your Maggies don't rolloff on top until they're beyond your hearing range - and they rolloff on the bottom about, what, 80Hz?

52mhz, Larry. :-)

Silver Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 141
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 12:20 pm:

Or, the specs say 52mhz, guess I'd have to get an oscillator to see the real rolloff. :-)

Kegger and Larry,

Thanks for your input. I'm at work right now but will read your postings tonight and will probably have some dumb questions to ask.

The MR77 purchase is going down on Saturday morning. All items advertised on eBay have bids and will be selling. So, the savings account will be replenished, there'll be more space in the house and the audio life will keep getting simpler.

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 748
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 12:47 pm:

SM - very good! More anon. . .

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1515
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 04:59 pm:

SM

Okay, I have shown little respect on this forum for country music, and although country music is not my cup of tea, I do actually like some of the older recordings and artists - some of whom you and Larry mentioned. My teasing has been taken too seriously and for that I apologise, but please consider that I am not a classical music fan either and have been known to throw an insult or two (in fun) about that genre in this forum as well.

As to not liking your recommendations - not so! Some, if not all, in fact, I have liked to some extent. I am a bit ped - er - fussy when buying music. If, say there are 10 tracks on a cd and if at least 7 or 8 don't do it for me, then I usually give the album a miss. At over $30.00 for a non top twenty recording I am usually 'picky' when buying music.

Larry

I am wid you, man on dis hip-hop and rap stuff. I am at the stage where I honestly believe that censorship and 'freedom of speech' should be revised - not only for music, but in the film industry and even in public arena also. If anyone thinks that the crap that is thrown in front of today's kids has no affect on our society, they are, IMHO, kidding themselves. But that's probably a gripe of mine that belongs elsewhere.

Sem

Yes, Mr Rea was one of my old favourites - still is in a way. I must reinvestigate his music. "God's Great Banana Skin" was another favorite among the half dozen or so recordings I have/had. "Soft Shoulder, Dangerous Curves" the guy knows metaphors. Sound like someone we know? LOL!

Larry,

How can you hate electric guitars? They cover all spectrums and can even be kind and gentle on older ears. Too much acoustic guitar can turn me off, yet I like it - hard to explain, really. LOL!

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2871
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 05:17 pm:

"Any comments here, John?"

Sorry. If I were Ghia I'd choose India. Exotic. Interesting. Never been there. There is an interesting-looking maker of tube amps and speakers in Pune, called "Cadence".

I have left the family watching "Under the Tuscan Sun" (to me, boring) in DD 5.1 playing with centre "none"; sub "none". All I do is turn the computer-speaker surrounds to max then adjust the volume on the stereo amp to the mains to give a roughly equal perceived intensity of hiss from each channel when using the player's "test" function. With our current system an SPL meter would be fairly pointless. I agree it is a bit of a nuisance to have to adjust channel levels and speaker distances with an OSD.

Probably an SPL meter can be useful in first setting up a system. Real discs vary so much in the balance between the different channels. An SPL meter in conjunction with a surround test disc which gives equal levels of amp input to each channels could be good. The real sub output is fairly arbitrary in the first place, though; getting the same SPL in dB from that as from the main or surround speakers would depend a lot on the crossover setting. One would not want necessarily to have equal SPL from the sub. Front and rear channels, yes.

But there again, surround mixes on real discs vary so much all one can really decide on is whether one likes, or is convinced by, the end result. An SPL meter might be interesting to give a reference, but it seems to me it is a bit like a thermometer, which can tell you the temperature, but not whether you feel hot or cold.

What's this "52mhz"? That "m" is surely a typo...? The Maggie low-frequency roll-off is probably in the region of 52 Hz.

John A.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2872
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 05:23 pm:

Crossed post, MR, sorry.

I would have thought the early Elvis could be classed as "country". No?

As with every genre, it is how they do it.

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 749
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 05:39 pm:

My Rantz - you are correct, sir, in that electric guitar, played by accomplished (preferably jazz) musicians, and at a level below that of distortion, can be very good. However, I feel there is too much reliance on them in today's music overall. Sorta like what happened with the Hammond organs several decades ago. They sprouted like weeds - then suddenly the jazz scene turned its back on them, and they've been sent back to Gospel and "alternative" jazz.

As for rap and H-H - all one has to do (if one can stand it) is to listen closely to the words, and you will surely be offended - soon. When so-called "entertainers" call for se xual mutilation of women and "offing" cops - sorry, this is one area where I (reluctantly) agree with the Christian Right - we could use a little censorship here! Whatever happened to manners, morals and decency? Sorry . . no more rantz from me. Sigh.

John A. - surely SM tippy-typed one too many letters there. Donne it myyself, as you so well know! Hmmm. . .The dear lady is trying very hard to develop her "perfect" sound system, and as such wants info, info, info. Which y'all can give, give, give better than I can! (grin)

don't know what the heck she's going to do when she spends three weeks in "Injah" - I mean, think of the kitties, and the Maggies! Double sigh. I can hear the "thip" of tears falling on parchment as she pens sad "miss you" notes from afar. . .

Now, if the Raj were still in place, Ms. SM would face a far better environment abroad. Things change, but not always for the better. . .

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 750
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 05:44 pm:

Rantz: Harrumph, sir! "gentle on Older Ears?!?" I say, old chap, I shall be awaiting your presence at dawn - bottles of Guiness at 10 paces? Fair enough, I'd say, to preserve my honor, if not my hearing! (grin)

PSSSST - the idea is to drink the Guiness, not throw it - but don't tell Larry I said so.
Signed - the Old Phart Phantom.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1516
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 06:10 pm:

Larry

I include my own in the 'Older Ears' brigade, though they can still put up with some louder electric guitar riffs on occasion. LOL!

I mean even God knows his way around the Fender!

John A

What sort of red-blooded English male are you:

""Under the Tuscan Sun" (to me, boring)"
If Dianne Lane is starring in a movie,it doesn't matter about the movie. LOL!

"I would have thought the early Elvis could be classed as "country". No?"

No!