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Thread: Archive through March 06, 2005 |
    
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1402
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 06:54 pm: |
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Jan,
I knew you'd deliver a well put together response to that article and I'm not qualified to argue your point - I can only go by my own experiences in trying various listening methods with what devices I have on hand - one thing though: with the hi-res surround formats (as with 5.1 DVD-Video), the lfe channel often delivers info above the 80hz crossover point, as you know, and this is also where the sub can often handle the information with better impact than the smaller drivers of the speaker imo. I can hear on some S Dan tracks and others (where the LFE instructs) the sub delivering the bass line and doing so beautifully - so no, they are not always a one note thumping machine.
As for: "I swear I can see those little Rogers speakers smile a self satisfied grin."
Well, perhaps you should take yourself to the shrink or . . .
at least cut back to about five Chevas Regals while talking to those little fellas :-)
And I agree with Rick, tubes are good, but I still prefer my beer in a good old glass.
Anyway - I'm off to the mountains for a picnic - later!
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Relevant Product Info
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 08:03 pm: |
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Not to prolong the matter, but I believe it was Kegger who originally made the remark about one note bass over on Old Dogs. I do tend to agree for the most part. The problem is not with what lies above the 50HZ or so bottom end of many mini monitors. It is usually the stuff that's hard to do well for most any speaker. Down beneath 35Hz.
I've generally found the bass response above 45Hz more to my liking in small speakers due to the inherently rigid cabinets vs. the inevitable flex of larger panels. The resonance of most small speaker boxes is pushed up into a higher frequency (which can have its own problems), where the larger panels tend to resonate closer to the frequency that is exciting them. The bass notes often hang on too long in most large boxes for my taste, or don't propogate properly into the room once really deep bass notes come along. The smaller driver also delivers more crisply articulated signals than I find in most 12" woofers. There are exceptions, but to bend the rules of physics which determine these things gets expensive. So down to about 45-55 HZ most small driver, small cabinet speakers do just fine for me. The doesn't mean I didn't enjoy putting Clapton on the McIntosh and Klipschorns occasionally. It just isn't what I chose to own at home.
Even with my HT system, I let the monitors do a large portion of the bass line. The crossover on my SACD player and the receiver are set at 40Hz. The satellites roll off almost entirely on their own at that point. Bringing in the subwoofer any higher than that and I tend to hear problems.
Bass has always been more one note than anything else in too many speakers to my ear. Quantity often substituting for quality. My tastes in speakers, and particularly what I like in the way of bass response, is not what I found most of my clients prefering. I'd rather give up a bit of extension, and certainly quantity, to have what I consider a cohesive, natural fall off of a smaller driver. But that's just my taste. I blame it mostly on hearing Quads. They have bass response like no other speaker I've ever heard. Not a lot, but just enough, and everything goes together so well. Unfortunately, I have neither the budget nor the room for Quads.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 08:06 pm: |
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The Chivas is not the problem for me, the problem is when the speakers have had one too many.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2200
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 08:55 pm: |
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Yes the one note bass thing was mine.
I believe a larger driver 10" or bigger or best yet muliple smaller ones
coming from the main speakers down to about 45hz "sounds" the best as far
as supllying ample bass that is instruement dicernable with a descent volume.
Then have a sub do the rest. Most but not all subs in my opinnion give off a one
note sound that doesn't sound like an instruement.
But for the propper application "bass extension lower then the mains produce" is fine. "for me"
I believe it takes a good amp/well made and suitable cabinet along with
great drivers to make a sub "musical". To me front firing is the only way to go
and if you have quality amps and the right cabinet a sub can do more than one
note bass but it will cost you. Even as Jan has mentioned in the past the free
air design with megawatts and very expensive drivers work incredable to.
The lower the bass you ask from your sub the less you hear an instrument, just bass
the higher the frequency you ask from your sub the more you hear it and the better
quality/sinergy comes into play!
So my oppinion is if you have a single bass driver speaker with a driver that
is 8" or less I believe even an average sub is needed to help that speaker.
But a better sub may be needed for those who don't care for the one note bass.
If you have speakers with more than one bass driver or a driver that is 10"
or larger the inexpensive sub works fine because the one note bass it's providing
is only doing that, basicly "producing one note lower than the mains" so you don't
notice it because the mains are allready
at the point where the sub does
it's thing with the same authority.
The thing that many don't like and notice is a smaller speaker that doesn't
really push the bass at the lower registers then you add an inadaquite sub that
is not musical and delivers the one note bass is much easier to hear then on a
larger speaker so it takes a better sub for some people to mate to there smaller
driver speakers. In other words it's much easier to "hear" the sub on a smaller
set of speakers and some don't like that. But they like quick "accurate" bass
they get from smaller drivers. So it can get really expensive to have a sub do
it "correct" or there is a comprimize that some are and aren't going to live with!
That about sums up subs! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 09:37 pm: |
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Yeah, I agree with that.
I think.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2798
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 01:05 am: |
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Jan,
Many thanks for the link
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
All,
"There are only a handful of instruments that actually produce information beneath 50Hz and the use of those instrument's lowest registers is rather uncommon"
That is correct, and, even when the lower registers are used, you hear very little of the funadamental, and the first harmonic is of course the octave so that is twice the frquency of the fundmental. Only in really really large rooms (concert halls) do you actually get the fundamental on the lowest string of e.g. a double bass, which if I recall is 32 Hz, but even then most of what you hear starts at 64 Hz and that is the open bottom string. An electric guitar's lowest string, E, unfretted, is 44 Hz, and the same applies; most of what you hear starts at 88 Hz. The active sub comes into its own with "Low Frequency Effects".
Jan, I think one reason for the return of the bass port is to get speakers as small as possible. The same is true of the active sub; localise all the heavy-duty bass in one box and put it under a coffee table or similar. This has something to do with WAF or similar, I am told: with 5.1 etc many Ws. just hate having conspicuous boxes or panels around the place. For some reason. Probably the same ones who just love huge telescreens. I do not have this problem, fortunately. Quite on the contrary. My dear W. seems massively tolerant, even encouraging, in audio madness.
Rick,
Are you OK....? At a bit of a loss for words...? Anything to do with the new amp....? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2201
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 03:54 am: |
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John most of what I listen to is rock music and what comes out of the sub
that doesn't come out of conventional drivers very well is kick/bass drum "maybe double bass"
and the bass guitars when there really jammin. Also just plain low tones of
combined instruement sounds making a bass tone!
Electric gutairs be them bass or standard are generally run through a
processor of some sort and with those a lot of subharmoics can and do get generated.
So while maybe a sub is a mute point for what you listen to, there is a lot
of low bass info in what I listen to and without a sub it's a night and
day difference. There is so much more info that is lost without one for my music. FOR ME!
I can listen without the sub then turn it on and realize what I'm missing.
So again it's both a matter of taste and physical properties that if
one reads all of the info posted hear while understanding it, should lead you to that.
It's fine if "you" don't want to use a sub or like one but many of us do
with great results and they actually reproduce music.
RANTZ'S comment "Unless you have full range speakers - you need the sub - period"
Was a little over zellas and should have read, "for him". |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1403
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 06:32 am: |
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Kegger
Thanks, yes I was a little over zealous, maybe my comment should have read:
"Unless you have full range speakers - you need the sub - period - at least that is my opinion."
All.
I appreciate the comments and points of view from other old dogs here but these are my floppy old ears that give me this information. I have to trust them first.
We listen to jazz, blues and some rock mainly and then a mixture of all I guess at times. And for this music I have to agree with Kegger.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2799
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 08:08 am: |
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Kegger, My Rantz,
Thanks and yes, I think we coming from different directions and can agree to disagree, as we have before. I am going to try some rock when I get my 5.1 back, or I visit, maybe around Easter. Yes, bass drums, kettle drums and so on go lower than that. Organ freaks also like deep bass. I think a concert grand piano has the lowest note at 25 Hz and a full-sized organ can go to 16 Hz. But if you look at the length of those pipes, I think 16 Hz is 64 ft., it sort of illustrates Jan's point. Even if you could get one of those into you listening room (!) you would never really hear it, just some harmonic or standing wave of that, and what you would be hearing would really be the resonance of your room; the sound would be completely different in different rooms, it would be the room itself making the sound. You only really hear the low notes on an organ on a huge space like a concert hall or a cathedral. It is awesome, alright, but cannot be reproduced in most people's homes, and that is just physics, not anything to do with speakers.
I remember listening to the Mercury Living Presence 1812 overture on the Corellis (50 Hz) and was completely "Blown away" by the cannon - a real one - on that recording. I am not kidding, it shook the entire house.
I am settled on a new pair of speakers which are overkill for our current small apartment. -3 dB at 40 Hz. About 86 dB/W at 1 m. Can post more on that but this is off-topic, I shall maybe go back to Old Dogs.
BTW Our current small listening room is 11' x 15.5' x 7.5'. Not a lot of scope, there. If I get it right, this room could just about accommodate a fundamental of 62 Hz. I think My Rantz and Kegger have much bigger rooms, and this is an important consideration.
Visited a HiFi shop yesterday which has all the exotic gear (from UK point of view) people have been writing about here; I had never even seen half of it "in the flesh". Martin Logans, Magnepan, a wide range of McIntosh amps and speakers. Amazing.
I enquired about valve/tube amps and the word they use is "fluid" - "more like real music". They seem to have a huge range; Quad 22, Pathos, McI., etc. I did not enquire about Jolida. For "Entry level"' the guy pointed to a Prologue One. It looked nice. Will try one, one day. There are also six-channel tube amps alright, such as Copland; one can certainly get surround tubes. I pretended not to be interested in the price. I was reminded of the legendary Bentley dealership, I think, which had the policy of telling customers "if you have to ask the price, then you can't afford it". Argh.
Rick, I am getting concerned..... RIck? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 819
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:27 am: |
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John,
Thank you for your concern. LOL!
All is well in TUBEVILLE, USA. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2801
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 02:35 pm: |
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Excellent, Rick. A glowing recommendation, if ever I read one. |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 466
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 02:43 pm: |
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Well, I've visited Tubesville, USA, but haven't bought any real estate there yet. I plan on it though.
After auditioning tube gear, the biggest benefit I hear is the fullness and three-dimensionality of the music. The best tube gear I've heard expands the depth of the soundstage, which could add to the impression of the three-dimensional presence of musicians. SS can be detailed but can sound slightly lean compared to good tube equipment. I've also heard tube equipment that sound like ss gear, detailed and lean. I'm not sure of the point of that. So, it's important which lot one chooses in Tubesville. There is varying quality there.
As far as the subwoofer debate, I fall on the side of eschewing it if possible for music. Why make the music system more complicated than necessary? That's why I chose speakers that can go down to 35Hz, which is sufficient for the music I listen to. I don't listen to a lot of organ music or electronica or rap music where deep bass is an essential part of the music. Unless you get mini-monitors and listen to this type of music, then a subwoofer probably isn't necessary. If that's the case then you should rethink getting mini-monitors. Good monitors can get down close to 40Hz these days. But I do love the sub for watching movies with great sound mixes. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2804
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 03:00 pm: |
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I agree, 2c. Tubesville seems to be a mixed area, and different people have different ideas on which is the right side of the tracks. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 03:41 pm: |
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You may want to revisit the Old Dog's kennel. Kegger and I had this discussion back when he was getting interested in tubes. It was about old school vs. new school tube sound. I would say somewhere around the first of July.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 820
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 04:02 pm: |
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.........YEP..............
And don't be afraid to take notes, mental or otherwise. I did, and I do believe it paid off. |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 823
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 11:25 am: |
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I spent most of Sunday listening to music. I can see what Jan meant when we said tubes don't like to be turned off. The longer the amp was on, the better it sounded. After four to five hours the sound was holographic. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2807
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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Thinking about subs and the rooms they are in, it seems to me the reason you hear the bass on a car system from outside the car, even with its windows closed, is much the same; the car itself is the resonator: what you hear, both inside and out, is the car, not the music. Same with houses. Some near our old place seemed to have heavy machinery operating within, from time to time. When you got close, you realized it was the bass line of something. I remember MR had neighbours like that.
Discussion of organ pipes etc does not qualify in Rick's sense of "tube talk". Sorry, Rick. Keep on tubing. I shall witter away on Old Dogs, instead. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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I found the best way to have the Macs at their best was to keep them running constantly. When they were switched off and allowed to cool completely, there were improvements in the sound for two days. The Macs have very large, heavy transformers that most tube amps don't share and there is a lot of iron to heat. (This is a problem to consider with the Quads also, John.) Allowing the Macs to run constantly is not as much of a problem as some tube amps due to their low idle voltage, the amps idle rather cool. A tube amp like the ST70, which runs hotter all the time, will need tubes replaced on a regular basis if you let it run constantly.
I've not seen a good way around this problem that doesn't either limit current or introduce noise. Since I have the 6200 for day to day listening, I've thought of trying a good quality dimmer, with RFI and EMI filtration, in the AC line with a heavy switch to quickly go from dimmer to straight AC. Even with the soft start circuit in the Macs, tubes do not like the on/off cycle. The filaments will heat and cool repeatedly until they get brittle and react to the incomming voltage just as a light bulb will. The more on/off cycles, the shorter the life of the tube. This is also true of transistors, though the solid state device benefits from not having 450 volts placed on its cathode.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 824
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 01:22 pm: |
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Jolida states in their manual that they do not recommend keeping the amp on 24/7, but don't go on to say why. I have run the amp for 8-10 hour sessions, and it does not run very hot, in my opinion. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2203
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Hey jan what about running a tube amp from a variac and when not in use
turn the variac down, also if so what would you run it at?
___________________________________
What tubes are you running in the audible illusions preamp?
6DJ8 / 7308 / 6922 and what brand?
do you have a preference? if you could get any!
I recently picked up some nos russian 6922's with a vsi label and gold pins
that sound awsome but I'm not sure what they are yet!
Anyways just curious your thoughts.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 01:13 pm: |
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A guess at the instruction would be it is to take some liability off Jolida. Same as a warning to not use your electric hedge clippers while in the shower. Since the Macs often found their way into laboratories, there was no warning on their on cylce. There were no warnings on cigarettes back in 1962 either.
I'm running Seimens ECC88 & E88CC gold pins. They were the best of the NOS tubes sent to me almost 15 years ago when there was still a reasonable amount of NOS available. The one set of tubes that had the best sound and were the quietest are very microphonic compared to evrything else I had heard. They required a lot of work and wouldn't do well if the speakers had lots of bass and the volume was louder than normal. With the Spica's that wasn't much of a problem.
I believe the AI came with Russian tubes that were relabeled. AI was very mindful of having enough spares to go around for repairs and replacement. They have about 100 hours use and are sitting in a box for the day I finally need tubes and don't want to spend any extra cash. They're decent by all standards, better that the RAM and Groove tubes of the same time. They're just not the Seimens. What I would buy today would probably be the same if available. The 6DJ8 being an unusual tube in audio, it's hard to say.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 826
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 01:28 pm: |
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Kegger-Jan,
Do you have any experience with EI brand tubes? I am going to swap the Electro-Harmonix for the EI Elite Gold Pins this weekend. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2206
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 01:37 pm: |
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Rick I had posted this to a response of one of your earlier posts:
"I like the EI tubes as well , they were very well rounded on all the ones
I've used. But I get a bigger improvement/change on the preamp or small signal
input tubes then I do on the output tubes. "
Anyways I find EI to be one of the better tube manufacturers making tubes today.
Having said that, still not nos standards though!
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 827
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 02:03 pm: |
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Sorry Kegger, I quess I'm at that senior moment age where I start to repeat myself. THE HORROR!
When I ordered the EI's, I ordered the matching preamp and driver tubes as well. I remember you saying they made a difference. I'll let you all know how they work out. Thanks again. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2207
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 03:00 pm: |
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I'm with yu on the memory thing rick!
Unfortunitly I can't blame mine on old age as I've allways had trouble in that area! lol!
I'm sure you'll have fun tube rollin and I hope the sonics go your way! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2209
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 04:18 pm: |
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Jan in your oppinion if anyone can answer it for that matter.
maybe as close as as you can please!
What tube be it preamp/input/output, brand/type gives the most "tube sound" like
rich harmonics maybe even exaggerated if you will?
What other things contribute to the luchessness and harmonic tones?
My guess resistors/caps/transformers but is there a tube type known for this?
You know me I like to experiment and evaluate, I'd like to see/hear the extreme!
And the extreme would be what amp with what tubes if at all possable?
Thanks in advance!
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 01:07 pm: |
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First, the question about running my amps off a Variac to cut back the voltage at idle. When I duscussed this idea with the technicians I was working with at the time, the general feeling was it is not a good idea. The expense of a very good Variac was the main reason. The power transformer on the Mac is quite large by comparison to most tube amps. Overall the 240 weighs about twice as much as the ST70 for a gain of only five watts. Almost all of the weight is in the three transformers. The idea of running a small power transformer in the affordable Variacs in parallel with the large power transformer of the Mac didn't seem like a good idea in terms of performance. Better to just plug the 240's into a wall outlet so they had nothing in front of their p.t. to impede current flow. Not that current is a big deal with a tube amp, but the best guess was the Variac transformer should be at least three to four times the size of the transformer in the Mac to reduce output impedance on the Variac side enough to be beneficial. That put the cost rather high to find a Variac that would be acceptable. (The used market on the internet may have helped the pricing now.) At the time I discussed this, the cost of the Variac would not have saved me any money over the cost of replacing tubes in the Mac for many, many years. (The cost of tubes on the internet may have changed this also. Tubes are almost twice to three times the price for basic tubes than when I first got the Macs.) Since I've got the two amps that I run as monoblocks, the need for two Variacs made the deal even less attractive. On a smaller stereo amp, the Variac might be a consideration. In terms of voltage at idle, what you're trying to do is keep the tube's parts from heating and cooling. The AI pre amp has a standby mode that keeps the filaments above a soft glow; just enough voltage and current to keep the temp up so that cooling never really happens. That, along with bringing the voltage up slowly, would probably be sufficient to extend the life of the tube. It is that intial burst of heat that is bad for the tube. It's the idea that a lamp goes out when you flip the switch, not while you're reading the paper. I seem to remember a number that indicated a 15-25% reduction in temperature will increase tube life by 2-3 times. Lower temps are less beneficial overall. Since the Macs run cool at idle and have a soft start circuit, they already have most of the benefits of extending the tube's life. Leaving the Macs running 24/7 has resulted in tube replacement every four to five years when I'm being picky about the sound. Usually a single tube goes out, and replacing the entire set to keep things matched is the better choice. Much depends on the tube also. The Sovtek tubes I purchased were in need of replacement much sooner than most of the other tubes I've used. Their allowable plate voltage was less generous than the Sylvania NOS and clones that I've run. When I first bought the Macs, the owners both still had original Mac tubes that were over ten years old. The periodical on/off cycle the amps experienced with their original owners had taken its toll more on the twenty year old power supply caps.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 01:05 am: |
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To describe a tube type as "tubey" is a difficult task. Obviously you can place a NOS tube in an updated circuit and not get old school tube sound. Some tubes are built around the model of old school designs. There are numerous tubes that claim the "sweetness" of this or that RCA, Slyvania or Mullard tube. My experience has been those tubes have a traditional sound because so many new tube designs go away from that idea and don't give all the richness of the old school tubes. That's why the NOS tubes are valuable. To find a particular tube in a given tube type, I would have to direct you to some of the tube sites that write about the sound of the various tube brands. When I bought this last set of Svetlana 6L6's, they were sold as being clones of the original Sylvania designs from the '60's. As you've said, a 6550 is generally less tubelike than most EL34's. But I'd have to say tube sound is much more dependent upon the circuit it is placed in and the transformers it works into. Going from a paper in oil cap to a poly cap is a fairly obvious example of what passive parts will do to the sound. A triode amp will be more tubelike if what you want is the immediacy of the tube sound. There a 2A3 is most often referred to as the best example of what a triode can sound like. A touch of sweetness with large dose of immediacy and harmonic richness. The simple circuits of a triode amp are what tubes are all about for most tube listeners, even if their not using triodes. As we've discussed an SET may not be for everyone. The simplicity of tubes with the power of push pull is still a hard combination to beat. With pre amp tubes I have to admit my experience is mostly with the standard tubes used in pre amps. 6DJ8's, 12AX7's and the like. I can't really tell you what tube is the most "tubey" from that lot. I can tell you the 12AX7 in a Marantz 7C or Conrad Johnson PV-5 do not give the same sound as they do in any other pre amp I've heard. If you want really "tubey" sound, you might look at some of the older gear from the '50's. There's not much around and it's either fairly high priced or not that great. The old mono amp you picked up from the repair shop this summer would be an obvious example of what tubes sounded like for most people in the '50's. By the '60's tube design had hit its heyday and was substantially better than most of what came before.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 838
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
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Hi All,
I did my first tube rolling this weekend, and thought I would post some observations. I swapped out both the power and preamp Electro-Harmonix tubes for a complete set of Ei Elite Gold Pins. Although the tubes are far from opening up, there is a very noticable difference in sound character.
The EH have a much smoother and fuller bottom end and a more laid back, or as it has been said by others, a darker sounding mid-range. The Ei's on the other hand have a much sweeter and forward mid range, with a very open breathing high end. The bottom however is not as defined and full as the EH. I can't say which I like better at this point. I think in all fairness, I'll have to give the Ei's a week or so as I did for the EH's.
I have found this very interesting so far, and I can see down the road, that the key will be to find the right combo of output and preamp tubes to your taste.
A quick word to the critics who say all this tube stuff amounts to tone controls; Is tube rolling any different than matching a warm amp or receiver to bright speakers, or vice versa?
I welcome any/all comments. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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I think you'll find the pre amp tubes you prefer can exert a strong influence on the overall sound of the amp as a whole.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 11:16 am: |
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It might be interesting to separate the pre amp & power amp for a bit of listening to see where differences are most evident. Does the amp have pre out/main in?
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2216
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:28 pm: |
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Rick!
"I have found this very interesting so far, and I can see down the road, that the key will be to find the right combo of output and preamp tubes to your taste.
A quick word to the critics who say all this tube stuff amounts to tone controls; Is tube rolling any different than matching a warm amp or receiver to bright speakers, or vice versa?"
Yes rick you hit my observations head on.
You can have your own taste and match your tubes to your components.
Just think if you had solid state and they did not match your components
and or your liking, your either stuck with it or sell it.
Where with tubes you can dial it right in!
THAT'S ALLMOST MY FAVORITE PART ABOUT TUBES.
I've got tubes in my cd buffer deal , in my preamp and my amp. So with a few
different tubes for each unit I can pretty much match any speaker or other component
to my system and have it suit my needs and wants!
I LOVE IT! NOW TO MENTION THE SOUND!
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 839
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 03:11 pm: |
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Jan,
I don't have the flexibility to seperate the amp from the preamp. But I can already hear that the preamp tubes may have an even bigger sonic effect on the overall sound than the output tubes. This is great stuff.
Kegger,
Thanks! It's nice to know I'm on my way to being a tubeophile. LOL! |
Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 08:40 pm: |
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I'm hoping this will make sense to someone who knows about this stuff. I stumbled onto this website doing some research for my very ill, hopefully not fatally ill, TV.
I have a toshiba 24af42. Its just your standard flat screen digital tv. nothing fancy but a great tv - sharp picture, no problems since we've had it (a couple of years now). Anyway, my husband walked over to it, just touched the side and static electricity blew it. At first nothing would turn on. He unplugged it for a while, plugged it back in again and the power light does come on, but no picture - no sound. Ever hear of something like this. We've had it plugged into a surge protector since we've had it. Aren't these things grounded inside?
I'd appreciate any knowledge/feedback. Thanks so much. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 11:40 pm: |
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TV's are grounded through the AC line. There is merely a grounding point inside the TV which is connected to the AC ground. I would guess you have experienced a coming together of coincidences that would make it appear the static charge blew out the TV's circuits. There isn't much to do except take it to a repair shop. TV's have dangerously high voltages across many points in their circuitry and tube. If you are not a trained technician, you should not attempt to remove the cover.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
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Anything going on in TubeLand today?
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New member Username: Vicky
Paso robels,
Ca
USA
Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:15 pm: |
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what!? do u like full house? |
New member Username: Vicky
Paso robels,
Ca
USA
Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
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i uv full house! |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 854
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 08:53 am: |
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I have the day off, and think I'm going to listen to some music, and hang out here. I'll try to keep quiet and stay out of trouble for a while.... |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
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Rick, shouldn't you be cleaning the cave?
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 855
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 01:14 pm: |
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Yes, yes, you're right. A mans work is never done. LOL! I'll clean first, then listen. If the meteor strikes while I'm cleaning, I gonna be pissed........... |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2222
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 04:20 pm: |
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Well I'm still going crazy with gathering amps! Sheez the madness!
I picked up an antique sound labs av20 mono block for my center channel.
Brand new for $150 plus $40 shipping. 20 watt amp with 2 6l6/5881's output
tubes and a 12at7 driver tube with manual bias setting. Seems pretty nice.
Then I won an auction for a mono block (H-AO-39) from a Hammond A100 organ.
Runs 2 el84's and a 12ax7 driver tube, cheap.
Then by next week wednesday I may be the owner of an antique sound labs 300b amp
with a 300b per side and 4 12au7 driver tubes for a wopping 8watts a channel.
The guy is local and we should be able to work a trade of appox $500 value and
$500 cash. This guy seems pretty cool , he suposably knows the guys who
started and run audiogon. "maybe not a bad contact" He's a big vinyl sellar!
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1111622703 |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2223
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 05:33 pm: |
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I've been doing a lot of testing and reading and researching.
On the 12a based tubes, yu know 12at7,12ax7,12au7.
And have found some some very intrigueing info.
As you know Jan there basically the same tube with different gains.
12ax7 mu gain factor of 100
12at7 mu gain factor of 60
12au7 mu gain factor of 20
Well there are many more where those come from.
The 12av7 is basically the same also with an mu of 40 so right in between a
12at7 and 12au7 and generally can be sustituted without any issues.
seems going down in gain is allmost allways possable while going up is
generaly not a problem but can be if went to far or curcuit/parts are close to tolerence!
Then you have all kinds of sustitute tubes in that range.
6414 mu 43
5965 mu 48
6829 mu 47
7062 mu 48
e180cc mu 48
then the
12ay7 mu 45
5751 mu 70
6211 mu 30
So you can cover whatever range you need/want and I'm sure theres many many more!
Well all this comes about as I've gotten quite a few of these tubes collected
and I like to tinker/see what happens. Well you sure can change the sound with
these babies and what I find realy interesting is when you go down in gain you
not only loose some power output but the noise drops also not to mention sound change!
Well as some may know when you run speakers with a higher efficency they also
tend to amplify the amplifier noise easier then speakers of less efficeny. you
can get some irritating noise. What I've been doing lately becausae I run very
efficent speakers and don't need the extra power is run driver tubes of less gain
which drops output power but also the amps produce much much less noise if at all!
With a descent spectrum of these tubes you can dial any speaker into your system.
And the more places you have tubes the more tweaking you can do!
With my setup I run the z-man tube buffer which uses one tube and you change
that the whole system changes, along with my preamp which uses 4 tubes you
can change the whole system.
I run out of my preamp to 3 seperate amps 2 solid state's doing bass
and sub then a tube doing midbass on up to my klipsch speakers. so I can
change the tubes in my amp to change just the klipsch and not the rest.
So I've been tweaking the z-man and preamp for best bass response!
"without severely deteriating my midbass on up"
Then tweaking the amps tubes for the klipsch. both solid state amps running bass
have adjustable outputs so I can dial them in.
It can be a lot of work but it's also very very flexable.
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Here's a couple of quotes from websites:
One simple tweak that is favored by tube amp users is to plug in a pre-amp tube with a slightly different gain factor. (Important: this only works for tubes that are pinout and plate voltage compatible, such as the types listed)
The gain factor of a tube simply measures how much it amplifies the input signal. For example, the common 12AX7 type has a gain factor of 100, while a 5751 (which is often used in place of a 12AX7) has a gain factor of 70. This means that if you plug a 5751 into a socket that expects a 12AX7, the pre-amp will have about 30% less gain. Not only will this make the amp quieter, but it can also alter the sound by making the power section work harder when you turn it up. Many guitar amp users (particularly harmonica players) like to reduce the gain to get a different sound or calm the amp down to prevent feedback.
In some cases, you can also go the other way and increase the gain factor. It is generally more risky to increase the gain factor rather than decrease it as the added gain may be too much for the rest of the amplifier circuit. An example of an acceptable up-swap can be found in tube amps that use a 12AT7 (with a gain factor of 60) as a "input driver" tube. You can sub in a 5751 to increase the gain by just a touch.
The tubes we list here also have several alternate names, which we list below. Note that the alternates do not have significantly different gain factors, they are simply a different name for the same thing.
12AX7 - ECC83, 7025, ECC803, E83CC, 6681
12AT7 - ECC81, 6201, 6679
12AY7 - 6072
12AV7 - 5965
12AU7 - ECC82, 5963, 5814, 6189
Before you discover the new possibilities in your amp, let us give a disclaimer. Your amp was originally designed for a certain type, and although tube amps are often forgiving, it may not have a tone that you like with a different tube type. For instance, changing the tube type doesn't only change the gain factor; there are other variables as well and your amp may have a circuit that is more particular than others. As a general rule, the substitutions we describe here should work well but there are exceptions and we don't warranty any problems that result from trying mismatched tube types. For the best results, find other people on the net who have experience swapping tubes with the amp you use.
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So with some educated guesses I've been getting some awsome results.
The other things that "can" happen when you change these tubes gain factor
in your equipment is by goiung down in gain the sound may get more mellow to help
out that speaker or system that's a little to sharp. and by going up in gain
"may" get the oppisite reaction to help out a dull system!
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