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Thread: Archive through February 25, 2005 |
    
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 669
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 09:28 am: |
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DVD strangeness: My Rantz et al - have been putting the Yammie through its paces - and have determined one interesting thing: the drop-outs and strange sound-level changes occur ONLY on the 7.1, or analogue out, settings. I've switched out the wires, cleaned and re-cleaned the contacts, and have run the liddle lens-cleaner disc four times now.
As I said, I'm e-mailing Yamaha support to see what they say - will keep you posted. Meantime, I'm not getting into the case - warranty issues and all that, you know!
As to the strange sound levels and drop-outs - when I play the tone-burst CD that's for setting up the subwoofer - that's when I finally zero in on the differences.
In the digital out position, the tones play nice and even. With the 7.1 analogue out, the tones have hesitations, and levels will change a bit. Very strange to me. . . |
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Relevant Product Info
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Silver Member Username: Black_math
Post Number: 216
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:25 am: |
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R.I.P. HST |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:40 am: |
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CAN NO ONE READ??? CAN NO ONE THINK LOGICALLY?Not even the person who wrote the question?
Here is the original question as posted by Larry (Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 05:31 pm): " ... how many notes (whole or half-step) is 7.5 feet in wavelength?"
Here is the information you need to solve the riddle:
http://www.maximacar.com/system_design2.htm
Please take a moment to peak at the answer. It should become immediately apparent to you. You will also, of course, realize that both our esteemed respondents are incorrect in their wildeyed guesses.
If you will carefully read the question, you will see the information required will be contained in any difference of 7.5 feet in wavelength. Looking carefully at the speadsheet of wavelength vs. frequency, you will find 7.5 feet in wavelength can fall between several points. The frequencies of 50Hz to 80Hz being just one of those points where a (roughly) 7.5 foot difference can be found. You will also note the difference between 20Hz and 25Hz is over 11 feet. Not being truly versed in the decimal points required to accurately answer the question posed when the wavelength is limited to a mere 7.5 feet, I will make a guess that the difference in wavelength in question would fall roughly between 22Hz and 25Hz. How many notes (whole or half step) will exist between 22Hz and 25Hz? The difference between 150Hz and 2.5kHz is roughly 7 plus feet. How many notes? We could, of course, take this to the extremes if we had the information provided for the wavelength of one Hertz. If anyone knows the wavelength of 1Hz, please answer how many notes would be contained within the 7.5 foot wavelength in question using 1Hz as the beginning number. I suspect we'll still be under two Hertz.
Since the question was not originally posed as the points between 50Hz and 80Hz, I assumed the question was much like, "how many grooves are there on each side of a vinyl, microgroove stereo LP?". One per side, of course. I took it as a trick question. The sort you would use in the bar after the symphony to win a round of drinks from your friends. Was I mistaken?
Now, if you will all permit me, let's look again at the question posed by Larry. "(H)ow many notes (whole or half-step) is 7.5 feet in wavelength?". I will reply, once again, as many as are required and not a single note more.
Thank you for your time.
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 670
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 11:09 am: |
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Jan V. et al - what I wanted - and still want to know - is simply this. If SM sets her subwoofer crossover at 50Hz, and I suggest that 80Hz would be better - how many more notes on the scale would she get from her subwoofer?
I'm suggesting that the difference would be roughly 5 notes on the Western scale. Not a lot of notes, but it would make quite a difference, I believe.
So - let's forget the wavelength argument, OK? All I'm trying to suggest to SM is that a slight adjustment upwards in the crossover will take a bit of strain off her main speaker, and put it on the sub amp. Am I wrong here, guyz?
Jan - you were the one who brought up this wavelength issue - all I STILL want to know, and convey to SM is: "Will setting the subwoofer crossover at 80Hz instead of 50Hz make an appreciable difference in sound for both the sub and the mains speakers?" I contend the 80Hz is a more logical crossover: others may differ strongly.
and have a peaceful, stress-free day. . . |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 671
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
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BenJames: I doubt that HST will fine "peace" anywhere he goes: he breeds controversy, and challenges all. But he was a damn good writer! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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"Jan - you were the one who brought up this wavelength issue"
Ahh, I see, it's my fault. Well, as the saying is paraphrased, "there I go again".
******************************
"Will setting the subwoofer crossover at 80Hz instead of 50Hz make an appreciable difference in sound for both the sub and the mains speakers?"
If you discount the word "appreciable" to designate or imply an absolute scale to which we could all agree (and we've seen how successful we are at that), I would answer - probably.
There are too may variables in your question (once again) to give a definitive answer. Why don't we let the panel weigh in on the subject and sort it out as we go along. Larry, you keep playing those test discs and maybe you'll find your answer. Of course, the question of line level or speaker level may influence your decision, so be certain to try both before stating a preference. You can just temporarily insert a chunk of that 14 AWG extension cord from Home Depot for the connection if needed. It will cost you less than $20, but you will have a better understanding of the difference between the two connections. Trust me on this one, Larry. Buy the cable in bulk and you'll cut the expense by one third. If you hear an improvement, you should spend the money for better cable for the complete connection. If you don't hear a difference, then you've only wasted a few dollars but gained knowledge. We will await the reporting of your findings.
By the way, I use line level connections, have the sub X-over set at 40Hz on both the processor and the SACD player. Front main speakers are set to large even thought they roll off at about 45-50Hz. The sub's own X-over is set to 150Hz. My subwoofer's cabinet is set on a free standing shelf about 4' off the floor and close to the corner of the room. It fires across the diagonal length of the room. More for convenience than sound, the sub sits about two feet behind my front satellite speakers. The gain control on the sub is set where I feel comfortable when the gain from the processor and SACD are at "0". I use the remote's control to adjust subwoofer gain to suit a program source. I have no absolute in my settings for Center, Sub, or Surrounds. I have only beginning points and where I want to be. Personally, I saw a SPL meter used once to set up a system and decided I could do better by ear.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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HST? et tu Hemmingway.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 842
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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Just thought I would share this quick story with the "Dogs". File it in the "How Old I Feel" section. I drive to the local mall yesterday to buy some CD's. It's one of those major chain stores. I decide to add to my Robert Cray Band collection, but can't find him in the racks. I ask for help, and I get the classic Who?, from some kid. A very sarcastic who at that. This is why a lioness on occasional must eat one of her young at birth. I went on to find it on my own. Snot nose twit. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 01:43 pm: |
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Rick, I feel your pain, anger, frustration and desire to smash the twit into a grease spot. But, were you not young once? Possibly someone may have asked you, should you have chosen the career path of mouthbreathing schmuck, where the original Sonny Boy Williamson discs were stored. You, of course, didn't known there was an "original" Sonny Boy. Your response would have been?
The mother lion will give her offspring the opportunity to learn the lesson before euthanasia becomes the last resort. Taking a lesson from the lioness, try this route next time you are presented with this opportunity to educate. A small, low gutteral snarl first. Then the paw comes to the back of the cub's head, knocking them quickly and sharply to the ground. Before the cub can regain their breath, a paw rolls the cub over and is then placed firmly upon the cub's chest. The lioness lowers her head to within a few inches of the cub's nose and the lioness gives a good shot of hot breath into the cub's muzzle. The proper etiquette is made obvious and the cub is left to ponder the lesson as the lioness turns and walks away. You might want to give a quick check for an awake security officer before implementing this approach. There are too many Barney Fife's out there.
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Bronze Member Username: Asimo
Post Number: 55
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 02:16 pm: |
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John A
I am a little surprise to learn that there are even better performances of Handel Messiah.
The Messiah is one of the most popular vocal oratorio at all times and there are hundreds of various performances.
I counted in the Penguin guide 15 three stars CD’s sung in German and 8 three stars CD’s performances sung in English including 4 rosette grade.
I have four different performances and I usually do not collect duplicates of the same composition.
Your recommendation for Coro della Radio Svizzera DVD-A should be either distinguished performance or a proof for superiority of SACD / DVD-A
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 843
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 02:59 pm: |
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Jan,
I had the paw to the back of the head part down better than most, especially in my younger days. Now, I am like an old lion in so much as I have to roar now and again, to remind myself that I still can. LOL! |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1422
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 04:51 pm: |
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Larry,
Re: the dropouts etc - I wouldn't discount the problem being with the NAD as they have had their share of problems lately. That and the fact that the DVD player works okay with the digital connection. Someone with a lot of audio related knowledge might give you some information on how (if possible) to ascertain whether it is the player or receiver that needs a good whack :-)
Mr Vigne?
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 06:44 pm: |
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With the equipment Larry has it is difficult to swap components which is often the easiest way to begin finding the problem's location. Larry, do you still have your old DVD player? Are the spots where the dropouts occur at consistent spots on the discs, or are they random.? In other words, if you hear the dropout and immediately repeat that section of music; will the dropout occur in the same spot?
While we're on the subject, I really don't want to sound preachy, really I don't in this case; but, Larry, you need to stop cleaning and recleaning everything. Particularly the connections. Every time you pull the plug loose and reinsert the plug, you risk damaging the connection inside the player and amplifier. I won't tell you the connections won't cause certain problems, but you are unlikely with decent cables to have the levels of oxidation required to foul a connection. You can easily do more harm than good by constantly pulling the cables loose to clean and reclean them. If you make a connection well, it should remain a good connection for a long, long time. So stop it; OK? Just stop it.
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Silver Member Username: Black_math
Post Number: 217
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 06:47 pm: |
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Rick,
That is why I shop indie record stores. Better selection, comparable prices, and employees who care about music.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2831
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 06:52 pm: |
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Jan,
"both our esteemed respondents are incorrect in their wildeyed guesses. "
As regards which note, and frequiency, I was close enough.
As regards how many notes, I got the right answer!
Rick,
I am with you and then some. That young pup is not your cub. Nor mine. Let him find his own way. Jan is too kind. You and I were never like that, when young; it stands to reason.
Asimo,
"Your recommendation for Coro della Radio Svizzera DVD-A should be either distinguished performance or a proof for superiority of SACD / DVD-A"
In my opinion, it is both. (I have four versions, too; I have also attended a number of quite different live perfomances).
But I really don't mind. The definitive performance was in 1749, surely, and surround sound was all they had. Even mono had not been invented.
No I was not there. Even I am not that old! |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 672
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 06:56 pm: |
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All: OK - the drop-outs occur randomly, and sometimes one after another, sometimes one at a time. The discs do NOT contain the problem, as I play them over, and the drop-outs don't necessarily occur at the same place - ever.
I've checked through on everything that I can think of - but this one thing nags at me. The drop-outs on the analog side ONLY occur when I'm playing a non-SACD disc. The SACDs play beautifully. So - I'm thinking - there might be something wrong with the dratted Dolby Pro Logic that the Yammie plays automatically when you put a non-SACD disc in the player, and select the 7.1 analog output? Very strange to me.
With that in mind, I'm going to heed Jan's advice, and leave cleaning alone. for now, at least. All the connectors are gold-plated, and corrosion is not much of an issue here. The one thing I worry about is that the Canare plugs might have been put together less than perfectly. If so, to take them apart is a real pain!
Yamaha has not yet answered my e-mails for help, so I've got nothing to report there.
And a happy night to all. . . |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 845
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 07:00 pm: |
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Thanks Ben, I'll keep that in mind.
John,
It is a different world today. At least we had a little respect for our elders, even if we didn't agree with them. LOL! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2832
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 07:03 pm: |
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Wonderful analysis of animal behaviour. The pup's/cub's
appropriate response is to roll over, exposing vulnerable underbelly, demonstrating trust and obsience. You don't often get that from sales assistants. Not these days. The older male then backs off; the lesson has been learned, for the good of the pride/pack. I roar with you, Rick. Perhaps he'll learn. If not, who cares. |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 474
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 07:05 pm: |
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Larry, I saw this: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=124&catid=51 and thought of you. |
Silver Member Username: Two_cents
Post Number: 475
Registered: Feb-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 07:05 pm: |
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Larry, I saw this: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=124&catid=51 and thought of you. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 07:14 pm: |
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John - You got what answer right?
Larry - I really don't think I can help you. Try playing the discs through the analog inputs and do not select Pro Logic. Don't worry about the cables.
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Bronze Member Username: Simplymcintosh
Post Number: 80
Registered: Jan-05
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 08:24 pm: |
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The drop-outs on the analog side ONLY occur when I'm playing a non-SACD disc. The SACDs play beautifully
This may be another display of ignorance on my part but, if this is the only situation in which this occurs, can the Yammy be plugged into the CD inputs on the NAD to see if the dropouts happen there? If they do, then it would seem reasonable that the problem lies within the Yammy or the cables. If they don't occur then this might indicate a problem with the 7.1 inputs on the NAD.
Also, as Jan mentioned, can you disable the Dolby Prologic to see if that clears up the dropouts?
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Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1423
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 09:22 pm: |
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Okay, Larry -
If you only get the problem when playing throught the analogue outs and SACD's play okay (naturally through the analogue outs), then it seems to me that the problem is with the DVD player. I would try what the others suggested though it seems your problem lies in the Yammies DSP :-
What happens when you play cd's straight without using DD pro logic and other processing?
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 673
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 09:22 pm: |
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Two Cents: Ah, yes. . .another way for me to get rid of my nagging cash, eh? Well - I'm sure they do work. Yep. Thanks - I think! (grin)
SM - OK - to disengage the Pro Logic on the Yammie in 7.1 mode I have to stop the player, turn on the TV, set up the menu, and then go into "multi-channel." Then I have to scroll down a list and select "stereo" instead of the Pro Logic II. It takes a huge amount of time, and then, once I decide to play a SACD, I've got to go back into the menu, and de-select "stereo," then scroll down and select "all." It's very frustrating, but just for the heck of it, I'll give it a trial run and see what happens. sorta like weight-lifting without weights.
The Yammie is a wunnerful player, but it's on-screen menu system really sucks sludge!
Still waiting for a response from Yamaha.
Thanks for your concern, SM. . .
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 674
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 09:32 pm: |
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My Rantz - sorry, another post-crossing.
Well, I've played "regular" CDs on the digital output, and they're fine. But I've not yet tried to disengage the Pro Logic in the 7.1 playback. I'll do that tomorrow. Just to see.
Trying to finish up the income taxes tonight. Tomorrow will be "hell day." Gotta take the car in for major work by 7:30 - then rush home in a loaner car so that Mer can get way the other side of town by 9 a.m. - for JURY DUTY! Sigh. She's all bent out of shape - and so I have to be in my best "support" role. Sigh.Again.
Somewhere in there I've gotta finish the taxes, and FedEx them to our accountant, up in Illinois. I think of Scotch - continually! (grin)
Still in awe of SM and Jan, with their sub crossovers set at 50 and 40, respectively. I tried mine at 40Hz and got so little out of it that I quickly reverted to 100 Hz. To each his/her own on this, I guess.
More anon. . . |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1424
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 09:53 pm: |
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Income taxes and jury duty - make that a double Scotch Larry :-)
I think you'll be lucky to hear from Yamaha - probably a bit like Sony. Try to find out who is your nearest warranty repair agent and try to phone them about the problem - just a suggestion.
As for Jan and SM - As they don't (I am led to believe) have full range speakers I would have thought they might get a bit of a hole where the low frequency in their speakers roll off and where the sub's roll in - but I guess they know what they want their subs to do - I only wish I could figure it out. Maybe theirs have periscopes:-)
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 675
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:10 pm: |
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My Rantz - good suggestion. Thenearest authorized repair place is Ft. Lauderdale - across Florida from us, but only about 95 miles away. I'll phone them - thanx.
And I always thought the idea of the sub was to take over from the mains speakers Before they reached their bottom end. OH, well. . .
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 676
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
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My Rantz - good suggestion. Thenearest authorized repair place is Ft. Lauderdale - across Florida from us, but only about 95 miles away. I'll phone them - thanx.
And I always thought the idea of the sub was to take over from the mains speakers Before they reached their bottom end. OH, well. . .
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2833
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:52 am: |
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Larry,
I stick with "Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:03 am:"
Rick,
Quite right. "Not like when we were young"; "pity you can't
put an old head on young shoulders" etc. (Smiley).
Jan,
The question to which I had the right answer was "how many notes in a wave of length seven and a half feet?"
Kegger,
Too bad with the firewall. I remember when the internet was there to send information to anywhere, receive it from anywhere, and all for free. This creeping control is all made possible by digital data transmission. It is there in digital broadcasting, too. Not to mention SACD... (Yes, and now DVD-A, too). As I have said, we need a new Bill of Rights. ISPs now oblige us to use their own servers for SMTP. There are barriers everywhere to the free flow of information, and more are being put up every day. It worries me. When we have to vote electronically the whole world will be stitched up to the benefit of those who think they know what we should be doing with our lives and our time! (End of rant)
To whom,
By the way, I wonder if we are not in danger of losing sight of the original question, here?
Have we answered it to everyone's satisfaction?
Or is no agreement possible?
Is it a question to which there is no answer?
Jan...? |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1425
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 02:33 am: |
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Of course there's an answer:
Stereo is nice and excellent at best
But surround surpasses especially in hi res
You can have your tubes and your old boxy Macs
But I'll stick with my kit and you can stick all your facts
So the question is answered and there'll be no unanimous vote
But you ain't heard what I have heard so this bloke doth bespoke
Stereo has had it special place in a time that's well past
Surround is here and staying put as it's just so good it's bound to last
:-)
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2218
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 02:43 am: |
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John:
"Kegger,
Too bad with the firewall"
I may have it figured out!
Windows xp has "remote desktop conection" which I believe I just got setup correctly!
Going through all the hoops I had to do to get there!
Shheeezzzz what a mess!
But will know more tommorrow when I try it from work. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2219
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 03:31 am: |
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Also John:
"To whom,
--------------
By the way, I wonder if we are not in danger of losing sight of the original question, here?
---------
(maybe)
Have we answered it to everyone's satisfaction?
-----------------------------------
(I belive we've done all we can do)
Or is no agreement possible?
--------------------------------
(yes I believe that is the case)
Is it a question to which there is no answer? "
-----------------------------------------
(No I believe we all have our own answer)
My personal feeling is stereo is still great and maybe even more of a true test of
your systems pluses and minuses then suround is and should be the standard to judge by!
But I believe a good surround system adds something that stereo can't do.
Where some who don't mind the abnormalness of being surrounded can enjoy it very much.
I believe the people who don't like or enjoy the suround experience is because
it's not what they want there system to sound like. And to me that is fine!
I enjoy stereo very much and I also enjoy surround but agree it doesn't
follow stereos rules and for some that is annoying while others embrace it!
I think that's about all there is to it.
If you've been criticlly listening to 2 channel and what it's suppose to do right
then surround breaks all those rules and throws them out the window and some just
can't enjoy/cope/let it do that for them!
That's no knock on them for wanting rules and bounderies to adhere to.
I think for them those are very important and not taken lightly. So for
them surround is gimmicky and hard to really get into or appreciate because
of how much it bothers them it's not natural almost all of the time.
I think people like my rantz and myself have less rules that are systems
need to adhere to for us to truly enjoy it.
In otherwards if it sounds cool who cares how they did it.
That doesn't mean I think I'm better for listening this way or even
enjoying my system or music more then anyone else.
It's just going outside the rules doesn't bother or annoy me where it may someone else!
And if it did bother or annoy me then yes I would not like it either.
So I don't think one can be convinced surround is awsome if there bothered by it.
I would imagine very few of us would like something that we felt wasn't
right or it bothered/anoyed us. I know I wouldn't.
So surround isn't for everyone , big deal It's not the end of the world.
Just hopefully theres enough of us out here who enjoy it to make it stay and
improve it'self while stereo continues along also!
HAPPY MUSIC FOR EVERYONE WHATEVER YOUR TASTE OR EXPACTATIONS!
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2220
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 03:35 am: |
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OH YAH BY THE WAY TUBES/VALVES RULE! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 2221
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 03:48 am: |
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------------------ "Pleasing Harmonics" --------------
Humans have become accustomed with various types of sounds. Some we find pleasing, and some appear harsh and un-natural. This is because of harmonics. A simple explanation of harmonics is when a guitar sounds different from a piano. Both may have a few strings of the same length, but when hit, make completely different sounds. The shape, construction and materials of the object add different resonances and reflections which give it a specific sound. Electronics work the same way.
Allow me to quote from Dave Gumienny's articles on the Phaze Audio web page.
Technically, and Musically Speaking
Music consists of musical tones or notes. A scale in its basic form has eight tones. The sound of an instrument consists of much more than single notes. Each note is a complex collection of a fundamental, overtones and harmonics. Let’s break this down a little further. The basic sound characteristic of an instrument is determined by the strength of the first few harmonics. Each of the lower harmonics produces its own characteristic effect when it is dominant or it can modify the effect of another dominant harmonic if it is loud enough. In the simplest classification, the lower harmonics are divided into two groups. The odd harmonics (third and fifth) produce a "stopped" or "covered" sound. The even harmonics (second, fourth, and sixth) produce "choral" or "singing" sounds.
It is generally accepted that tubes are musically superior audio devices because they produce a higher portion of even rather than odd-ordered harmonics. Transistors, on the other hand, tend to emphasize the odd-ordered harmonics. Even-ordered harmonics are musically related to a given frequency in terms of octaves, while odd-ordered harmonics are dissonant. A higher proportion of even-ordered harmonics more closely resemble the natural harmonies in music. A signal passing through a tube will be automatically altered in such a way as to be in sympathy with the normal characteristics of music. Thus, tube amplifiers are commonly called "musical" or "warm" sounding.
The second and third harmonics are the most important. Musically the second is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible; yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller. The third is termed a musical twelfth. It produces a sound many musicians refer to as "blanketed". Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong third actually makes the tone softer. Adding a fifth to a strong third gives the sound a metallic quality that gets annoying as the music gets louder. A strong second with a strong third tends to open up the "covered" effect. Adding the fourth and the fifth to this gives the sound a more "open" quality.
Higher harmonics, above the seventh, give the tone "edge" or "bite". Therefore too much edge can produce a raspy, slightly out-of-tune quality. Since the ear is very sensitive to the edge harmonics, controlling their volume is very important.
The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighing of harmonic distortion characteristics. Transistor amplifiers exhibit a strong component of third harmonic distortion producing a "covered" or restricted sound when driven hard. Alternatively a tube amplifier when overloaded generates a whole spectrum of harmonics. Particularly strong are the second, third, fourth, and fifth overtones which give a full-bodied "brassy" quality to the sound. Tubes sound louder and have a better signal-to-noise ratio because of the extra subjective headroom that transistor amplifiers do not have. Tubes get punch from their naturally brassy overload characteristics. The feeling of more bass response is directly related to the strong second and third harmonic components which reinforce the "natural" bass.
In addition to these somewhat classical statements about tubes, B.K. Butler notes a lesser known but significant characteristic of tubes which also relates to their musical enhancement ability. This characteristic is the soft damping factor inherent in tube amplification which results in slight and pleasing deviations in both time domains and dynamics the key ingredients of musicality. This quality adds a psycho acoustic nature to the signal passing through a tube which the mind interprets as being spatially "expanded". The result is a "live" vs. a "canned" or "processed" sound. Therefore tubes enhance and improve the rather sterile nature of digitally-sourced and transistorised sound. For this reason, most professional musicians not only prefer to record and perform live with tube equipment, but they also favour tube amplification systems in their homes. There is perhaps no more qualified judges of sound than professional musicians, whose very livelihood directly depends on the quality of their sound.
Psychco-acoustically speaking, musicians make more objective subjects than engineers. While they’re terms may not be expressed in standard units, the musician’s method of measuring "by ear" is extremely valid. Consider the possibility that the ear’s response may be quite different than an oscilliscope’s. Tube preamplifiers are still the equipment of choice in modern recording studios. "Tubes have more bass it actually sounds an octave lower", says one rock guitarist. "Transistor recordings are very clean but they lack the ‘air’ of a good tube recording", "With tubes there is a space between the instruments even when they play loud transistors make a lot of buzzing", say many recording engineers. A number of musicians comment that transistors add a lot of musically unrelated harmonics or white noise especially on attack transients. The result of this research has indicated two areas where vacuum-tube circuitry makes an audible difference in sound quality: recording studio microphone preamplifiers and power amplifiers driving speakers.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 05:23 am: |
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John - Yes, your answer can be considered correct.
http://www.maximacar.com/system_design2.htm
http://psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html
The problem is in the problem.
And that no one else now cares.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 846
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 05:41 am: |
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"stereo has had it's special place in time that's well past."
I'm a little worried about you my friend. It would appear that you are spending far too much time in the hot Australian sun, without a hat.
But if what you say is true, I'm going to gather up all the old boxy Mac's and tubes that I can. Then I'm going to go back to my cave, listen to some glorious stereo music, and wait for the giant meteor to impact. Yep, that's what this old "Dino" is gonna do. |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 677
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 06:12 am: |
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My Rantz - a big drum-roll for you and your versing, sir! And G-day!
Rick - the meteor is really coming? Wow - I've waited SO LONG! Sigh.
Away to spend $1,200 USD on car repairs - and to take Mer in for jury duty. One of life's lower days. . .
The meteor is REALLY coming, Rick? About time. . . |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 847
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 06:22 am: |
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..............and watch some reruns of the FLINTSTONES!
WILMA! Where are my new tubes?
I really don't know the exact time Larry, you'll have to ask MyRantz. LOL! |
Bronze Member Username: Simplymcintosh
Post Number: 81
Registered: Jan-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 07:35 am: |
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Larry,
SM - OK - to disengage the Pro Logic on the Yammie in 7.1 mode I have to stop the player, turn on the TV, set up the menu, and then go into "multi-channel." Then I have to scroll down a list and select "stereo" instead of the Pro Logic II. It takes a huge amount of time, and then, once I decide to play a SACD, I've got to go back into the menu, and de-select "stereo," then scroll down and select "all." It's very frustrating, but just for the heck of it, I'll give it a trial run and see what happens. sorta like weight-lifting without weights.
That's the thing about these new fangled formats. They lack the simple elegance of stereo. :>)
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Bronze Member Username: Simplymcintosh
Post Number: 82
Registered: Jan-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 08:03 am: |
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MR and LR,
And I always thought the idea of the sub was to take over from the mains speakers Before they reached their bottom end. OH, well. . .
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why (and what) my sub is missing. I tried to make sense of Asimo's numbers (thank, Asimo) but, unfortunately, they are numbers on a page to me. It occurred to me that I may have to get one of those testing cds/devices so I can correlate sounds to numbers. So, taking into account a very likely misunderstanding of the settings, please tell me what I'm missing in regards to my current speaker/sub settings:
Spendors frequency response: 52 hz
Spendors frequency range: +-6db @ 40hz
REL Strata III - 53hz
And, I'm still trying to understand how a sub can sound as musical as speakers if it is taking over frequencies from 100hz downward?
I did come acrosss some additional tuning information from REL's site that was not in the owners manual that I will try if I get some time this week. Unfortunately, this weekend, I will be out of town for the 4 straight weekend so it could be next week before I have time.
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Bronze Member Username: Simplymcintosh
Post Number: 83
Registered: Jan-05
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 08:05 am: |
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LR
Still in awe of SM and Jan, with their sub crossovers set at 50 and 40, respectively. I tried mine at 40Hz and got so little out of it that I quickly reverted to 100 Hz. To each his/her own on this, I guess.
Don't forget the room dynamics may be playing a role in this, too....I'm sorry, I hope it doesn't appear that I'm picking on you this a.m. <wink> Gotta go to work, now.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 848
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 08:35 am: |
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SM,
You go girl! I could not have said it better. Look and scroll through a menu? Choose an option?
What are we doing here? Are we listening to music or ordering a meal at a bistro? |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 849
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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Wow, tough room! I'm doing some of my best material here guys............................. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | |
