Archive through February 08, 2005

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1346
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 06:35 pm:

Thanks Rick,

Nice to know I'm not crazy - or at least, if I am, I'm in good company LOL!

Cheers backatcha.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1347
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 06:44 pm:

Jan,

Crossing posts. Yeah, I thought about the Kimber but that meant stripping 96 wires - maybe when I get another wire stripper - one that works! I spent half an afternoon stripping them with nail scissors just for the speaker connects after discovering the 'brand new' stripper gadget bought especially for the job was faulty.

It was the post from "Goose" on that thread that gave me the urge to remove the jumpers.

Thanks - more proof I'm not completely mad - yet!

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1348
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 06:52 pm:

Jan,

If I was to try bi-wiring, would splitting the Kimber (2 x 4 strands) be suitable or would I need to use 2 lengths of fully braided cable - being that the eight strands make an aggregate of 10 guage wire?

And whatever is best - would it be another impronement over replacing the jumper straps with the wire or is it a case of try it to find out?

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 562
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 10:09 pm:

My Rantz: Yep - when I took off the gold "plates" and substituted Blue Jeans Cable 10AWG wire, the sound DID improve - seemed to make less of a "switch" between woofer and tweeter. I took off the wire, put it back on, etc. a number of times. Finally determined that, if it was just my imagination, then so be it! (grin)

Have to put any thoughts of further stereo on the back burner awhile. Took the beloved Camry into the shop today - and got the bad news that it needs $1,400 USD of work as soon as possible. Oil pump, gaskets, etc. Sigh. With 145,000 miles on her, the ole gal is beginning to show her gray hair. Mer says we need to think about trading up to a "newer" used car - ours is now worth only about $4,000 - and the more we put in, the less we get out. Like real life. . .

Anyway - the guy who is "supposed" to be sending my B& W speakers said tonight that FedEx was "supposed" to pick them up today - but did not. So - he'll try again tomorrow - he says. I'm beginning to smell something very ripe in Denmark here, guyz! If he didn't have such a good feedback on Audiogon I'd be super-suspicious of this guy!

If any of you does business with "Amrik" on Audiogon - be sure to look up his feedback first. IMHO only. He is probably totally honest, but these delays are making me nervous.

SimplyMcIntosh

Bronze Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 51
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 10:35 pm:

Old Dogs,

The Spendors are here. The first thing I noticed out of the box is they are much smaller than I expected for floor standers. They are 31"h x 6 7/8 w x 9 7/8 d. Very well built and with a nice elegance to them.

Plugged them in and put on Aimee Mann's "Lost in Space". Well, the first thing I had to do was turn off the subwoofer since it was pretty clear the Spendors were providing some low ends the B&W's didn't. The speakers had a very nice natural sound.

Then, I made a mistake. I decided to do a side by side comparison with the B&W's. So, I brought the B&W's and the stands out of the office into the living room and setup the comparison. It was a little cumbersome because I only had one set of cables ready and so ended having to switch the cables between the speakers instead of doing the A-B switch on the amp.

Remember how I had oscillated between the B&W's and the MA's when I first got the McIntosh amp? It was a difficult decision because both speakers had similar characteristics. I eventually went with the B&W's because I felt they offered a deeper soundstage when paired with the McIntosh. Well, the difference in characteristics between the B&W's and the Spendors is very pronounced. And, I'm wishing I had my money back. :-(

It's a little confusing. The Spendors have gotten excellent reviews and I agree they do sound very good. As advertised, they are very balanced from top to bottom. And, I think I read one review in which they were better received than B&W's. And, given that, it makes me wonder if I really don't know what a "good" speaker should sound like. Because I like the B&W's better - and, it's not close. Don't get me wrong. They do sound great. But, I don't prefer them to the B&W's. At least not yet.

The Spendors have 2 woofers and a tweeter. The woofers are smaller than the woofer in my B&W. The two smaller woofers don't equal B&W's woofer in my opinion. Perhaps they might be a little faster or tighter and likely cover more low end than the B&W's. But, if you have a good sub as I do (REL Strata III), that becomes less of an issue.

I listened to a variety of recordings including the Also Sprach Zarathustra (just the 2001 intro), Patsy Cline "Your Cheatin' Heart", Mahalia Jackson "Walk in Jerusalem", Jack Johnson "Bubble Toes", Aimee Mann, Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" and in every instance, the Spendors just sounded smaller. Natural sounding but small. The B&W's were louder, bigger, more open - and sounded natural too.

Getting back to what I said earlier about not knowing whether I can even tell what a good speaker sounds like. When I first bought the B&W's, I auditioned them in my home (I had to pay for them but had a 10 day period in which they could be returned) against a pair of Linn Speakers. The Linn speakers were very similar to the Spendors in size - except they only had one, larger woofer. Anyway, my next door neighbor listened to the speakers and said he preferred the Linn while I preferred the B&W's. He thought the Linn's had a tighter sound and didn't reveal as much in the high end as the B&W. In his mind, that was a good thing. Now, I preferred the B&W because I thought they had a more open sound in part because they revealed more in the high end.

Sorry this is so long (and rambling). I've always heard that "good" speakers will reveal the flaws in your hardware and recordings. When I listen to the B&W's, they are very open sounding to me. The high ends are very detailed. I think that comes from the tweeter being mounted on top of the speaker. Part of this "openness" I hear is what might be described as "hiss" or "static" - except to me it comes across more as the room ambience or air - kind of like older recordings have more tape hiss than newer ones but it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the music. Does that make sense? Anyway, I don't hear that with the Spendors. So my question is whether that is good or bad? To me, the music sounds like it is coming out of a box - similar to the feeling I had with the Linn's.

Larry, when you get your B&W's (think positive thoughts) they will blow your Polks out of the water. It will be a night and day difference and I think you'll prefer the B&W's. I knew I already had a good pair of speakers in the B&W's. I also knew the Spendors are more of a lateral move and that any improvement would be subtle. But, I didn't expect this.

I've heard it does take close to 100 hours to open up the Spendors and the dealer said these have less than 20 hours on them. So, maybe they will evolve. I'm listening to them now. They sound good. Polite.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1349
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 11:15 pm:

SM

"They sound good. Polite."

Who wants good? Who wants polite? What a shame after spending your money and waiting with eager anticip . . . ation to get good and polite. B&W's are hard to beat once you find appeal in their sound. Maybe the Spendors will open up after a while, but if the sound is that far off appealing to you compared with the B&W's I doubt even that will do the trick for you - I may be wrong, I am often :-)

Be sure to experiment with positioning (as if you need telling) and even though they are floorstanders, try short stands - I did with my JBL's (mainly because of a furnishing situation) but the extra elevation did, in fact, make a difference. I hope they eventually work out for you or, that you might get a refund or sell them without too much of a loss if they don't soon party well.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 11:45 pm:

Rantz - It is a cut and try situation with the jumper. You can begin with just a single strand of Kimber between the posts if you'd like. The tweeter isn't looking for high current so bulk in the cable isn't needed. The construction of the Kimber is important and the braiding is the key to the construction. That said, I would try whatever is the easiest to accomplish. If a single strand sounds like it's headed in the right direction then you can go from there. If the single strand sounds like the wrong direction then the course to pursue is an easy choice. Since this is a point where a small amount of work can make a noticeable difference, I would try several different types of wires as jumpers. Or go to the biwire.

Ghia - Give the Spendors some time, things change. You may prefer the B&W's in the long run. When you make the comparison you should make certain the volume you hear from each pair is the same, not the same volume setting on the amplifier. You will always pick the louder speaker as the better speaker. Some speakers do reveal the quality of components in front of them, but that is typically a speaker that is asking a lot of the amplifier. Some speakers make it easier to detect the changes in cables and so forth, but that isn't necessarily the mark of a good speaker. The better the speaker the more accessible the music and the more enjoyable the experience. Any component should allow you to listen to more recordings, not fewer recordings.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/118117.html

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2172
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:25 am:

SimplyMcIntosh I think it's well documented my preference to a speaker
that is very detailed and maybe even a little on the bright side so I can
understand where you come from when a speaker is not.

To me the terms dull and unlively come to mind.

As we have heard not everyone has the same taste nor the same hearing.
I also am a fan of most B&W speakers I've heard.
Open and detailed plus full bodied is how I would describe them.

I also think there is something to your point of.
"knowing what a speaker should sound like"
But in the end "you" have to like what you hear.

And yes many speakers will open up after break in.
So give them a good couple weeks of extended playing with varying volumes.
Then revaluate them again. One good thing should be is they seem to sell
rather quickly on the open market if you should decide to sell them.

I'm sure rick could tell you what to expect after breakin.

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 447
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 01:03 am:

SMc,

Jan and Kegger hit it right on the head. It's not uncommon for speakers to first sound horrible right out of the box. I'd put at least 100 hours on them and then try the A-B test with the B&Ws again.

When I was looking at Spendors, the s5e in particular, I was told by the audio store guy that they need a lot of power to sound their best. He actually discouraged me from auditioning them when I told him that I'd be using a 40wpc amp. The Spendors may not be as efficient as the B&Ws, which would explain the latter sounding "louder" and sounding better with the Mac. When you test the speakers again after the Spendors break in, try listening to both at the same low volume level. A good test for speakers is how much detail they provide with the volume set low. The speakers that reveal more of the music at the same low volume level is usually the better designed speaker. Having said that, your ears (and brains) are the final judge.

Best of luck and don't give up the Spendors just yet.

SimplyMcIntosh

Bronze Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 52
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 08:03 am:

Thank you, Gentlemen. Good points all. I will definitely give them a chance to break-in and will look at ways to reposition them within the limited options of the room.

Kegger, you are right, the B&W's are also full-bodied. That was very evident when listening to the drums in the Also Sprach Zarathustra and the rhythm section of Jack Johnson's band.

2c, Jan, I was surprised that I wasn't getting the same level of volume out of the speakers. They have similar sensitivity ratings. The Spendors are rated 87db (1w@1m) and the B&W's are 88db (2.83v @ 1m) - perhaps the second set of numbers make the difference? The Spendor's amp rating is 15w-200 (8ohms) while the B&W is 50w-200w (8 ohms). The Mac is rated 75w (8 ohms). This will make more sense to Jan, but the volume difference is equal to one green notch (and maybe 1 1/2) on the MA6200.

So, I'm taking the B&W's out of the living room and will continue with the break-in of the Spendors. Elevating them may be a good thing. I found that the tweeter is approximately 7 inches below ear level.

Off to work.

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 563
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:20 am:

SMAC - hey, at least you HAVE your new speakers! (grin) I'm still sitting here twisting my thumbs into liddle knots. The seller is blaming FedEx for failure to pick up - but. . .

One thing I've noted in several Spendor reviews is that they (according to the reviewers) "roll off slowly above 10kHz" - that might explain some of what you hear as "polite?" They apparently do not go as "flat" as the B&Ws into the far upper ranges.

Heck - I only think I know what I read - and what the better-informed on this forum tell me.

If my Polk experience is anything like your Spendor experience - they WILL sound much better after about a week of "working."

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:57 am:

"87db (1w@1m) and the B&W's are 88db (2.83v @ 1m)"

What you are seeing is simply a difference in how to state the amount of voltage across the speaker terminals to produce the amplitude given in dB. Over a strict, simple 8 Ohm resistive load, 2.83v will be equivalent to 1 watt. If the resistance dips or rises, the amount of voltage required to amount to 1 watt will also vary according to Ohm's Law. How the number is expressed in the specification sheet is inconsequential in this instance. What is probably of more consequence is the actual impedance swing of the two speakers. You are probably hearing the amplifier working through the X-over which presents an impedance load on the amp instead of a simple resistive load.

1 dB is enough to influence your choice in speakers; it is, alas, a trick every audio salesperson learns quickly. Often it is difficult to evenly match two speakers due to the differences in their frequency response. Speakers that emphasize (or roll off) certain areas in their frequency band width will give the impression of widely varying volumes when compared to one another. If you have an SPL meter you can use it to balance the volumes sufficiently. Test tones are the best choice with a meter, use several over a wide sweep and get the best match possible. Put an emphasis on matching the midrange. Even without a meter you can use a simple vocal to get a good approximation. "The Trinity Seesions" would be a good start here. Match the vocal as closely as you can and proceed from there with your comparison.

I disagree with 2c somewhat on the importance of low volume testing. While low level listening is important, the problem with that approach is there are too many variables in how a speaker might be used to justify judging primarily at low volumes. You want to know whether the speaker changes its character as the volume is changed. Low volume shows a lot about the ability of the speaker to articulate the music when only a small voltage is present, but it won't tell you about other factors in the speaker's character. Do listen at low volumes, high volumes and, most importantly, the volume you normally use. Make certain the speaker will perform over a wide range of requirements before you make your decision.

Try tilting the front of the speaker back slightly to aim the tweeter at your ears. Keep the speaker well supported so it doesn't rock. Then you can try a stand if you feel the need.

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 788
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:54 am:

SMAC,

I don't know of any speakers that sound "right" out of the box. I would allow a minimum of 100 hours break-in before doing any serious evaluation. I had the advantage of the former owner of my S3/5's doing most of the work. They bloomed while I was listening to them in about 10 hours. My Ohm Micro Talls on the other hand, required around 700 hours. They sounded horrible for the first few hundred hours.

I just don't buy the claim made by the dealer, that they need a lot of power. The Spendor, like any fine speaker wants good clean power. The Mac, as you know is as good as it gets, and with 75watts should dive a 87Db speaker to levels any sane person would want to listen. My 3/5's are 84Db, and with my 70 watt 6100, I listen at the 12 o'clock position.

I look forward to your evaluation after break in.

Cheers!

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 11:29 am:

I'm sure SM has already noticed the 12 O' Clock position on the Mac is not the same as that position on most other volume controls. The Mac has a linear taper volume control where most other units use a log scale taper which will place more volume differentiation in the first half of the volume control's range. The Mac's VC will produce constant, incremental changes across its entire range. This linear scale offers more consistent adjustment across its entire range and greater control at the positions beneath 12 O'Clock than a log scale control. The log scale is often used to give greater amounts of variation from input voltage of the sources. Mac, of course, assumed you would buy all Mac components with matched output levels. Start saving up!

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 791
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:10 pm:

At the 12 O'Clock position, I wonder how much of the 70 watts I am actually using? I am anxious to try the Jolida's 20 watts with an 84Db speaker. I still think I should get listening levels as high as 93-94Db. Yes! No?

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 448
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 01:37 pm:

Rick, I've heard a 25wpc Jolida amp driving Magnepan 1.6 speakers and it sounded pretty good. I was surprised, because I've heard Maggies require a lot of power. SMc's Mac might have enough power to drive the Spendors effectively, but it may not be enough to maximize the performance of those speakers.

As mentioned by Jan, a speaker's sensitivity rating isn't necessarily indicative of its efficiency. I've listened to 89dB, 8 ohm speakers that were relatively difficult to drive because of the large impedance curve, going down to less than 4 ohms. Compare that to a 89dB, 4 ohm speaker with a relatively flat impedance curve throughout the frequency range. The latter might actually be an easier load for an amp.

Jan, I wasn't suggesting that the low-level volume test was the only or best test. In my mind, choosing the speakers that sound most musical is the real test. But how do you quantify that? I suggested the low-level test, because it really tells you a lot about the quality of the speakers and is often ignored by people auditioning speakers. How many people actually try this compared to those who crank up the volume during their listening test? I think this is a good test for all audio equipment as far as it's ability to present the details of the recording in a coherent, musical way. If it can do this at a low volume level, there's a good chance it can present music in a fuller way at higher volumes.

As you know, listener fatigue results from the brain constantly filling in or correcting information it receives from the sound system. If that system presents all the information fully and correctly, one can just enjoy the music for hours on end.

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 449
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 02:02 pm:

Just for fun, here are the measurements on the SMc's Spendors: http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/904spendor/index4.html

Interesting points: the measured sensitivity is around 82-83 dB, not even close to the 87dB claimed by the manufacturer. Also, the impedance ranges from 3.9 to 9 ohm. Given this John Atkinson states that the Spendors should be an easy load on amps (???). I don't know if that's any more objective than his conclusion based on his measurements that the speakers would provide a "big-hearted sound" (?) The old BHS factor. Maybe the H shouldn't be there.

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 792
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 02:17 pm:

2c,

I had a pair of 1.6's before getting the Ohms and Spendors. The claim that the Maggies need mega power is not true. They just want good, clean power. My JD102B arrived today, so I'll let everyone know how 20watts of tube power drives the S3/5's.

Cheers!

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 450
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 02:28 pm:

Rick, yeah I found that about the Maggies. I've discovered there's a lot of misinformation perpetuated in the audio world. Another lesson learned is that new doesn't necessarily mean improved as far as audio equipment.

Anyhoo, looking forward to your report on the Jolida amp. I hope it meets your expectations.

Asimo

Bronze Member

Username: Asimo

Post Number: 47
Registered: Apr-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 02:59 pm:

SimplyMcIntosh

This was an excellent review better than many professional articles in the audio magazines and the net.
Your two speakers are from the top of the audiophile list. I know the B&W 603 and B&W CDM7 they both sound fantastic to me I preferred the less expensive one the 603 because it was more soft.
I did not listen to the Spendor but I know it is one of the best British speakers for classical music and probably for other sorts of music as well.
I do not believe that a speaker needs 100 hours or four month to open. I think that you can feel immediately if you like a speaker or not. I do think that it is very important where the speaker is located in the room and how the speaker integrates with the room acoustic.
Different sensitivity of speakers can cause some confusion at the beginning but after you are aware and learn to adjust volume it will not change your opinion.
Try to listen to different instruments like solo piano solo violin, or solo oboe, clarinet, trumpet, check a female voice, an opera aria is very good for the test then a grand opera or one of Mahler glorious big symphonies and don�t forget a jazz sessions.
Try to find how each speaker behave at low volume, very important for late night listening.
I remember from your past audio experiments cycles that you always came to the right conclusion and chose the better audio equipment I am very curious to find which speaker out of the two you will decide to live with.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1350
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 05:01 pm:

Old Dogs,

Okay, you all have much more experience than me with audio, but I find it difficult to understand how a speaker's 'characteristics' may change so dramatically after 'break in' that it could change a listener's clear preference from one speaker over another. I do understand that a speaker will 'open up' over an initial time period and that time period may differ with various types/brands, but if it's characteristics could alter so much, then wouldn't that make choosing speakers a very daunting task to begin with? Wouldn't this 'break in' phenonemon be good reason for manufacturers to pre-run their speakers before they reach point of sale? I don't doubt you good people, I just find the 'amount of difference ' difficult to comprehend.

Jan,

I ended up bi-wiring the speakers with the existing Kimber cable using 3 strands for the low end and one for the high per pole. Sounds marvellous - it didn't alter the top end improvement already achieved, but seems to have added a bit more fullness to the the bottom.

Silver Member

Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 451
Registered: Feb-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 05:12 pm:

Rantz, see attached article for a simple answer: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03163/191323.stm

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1351
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 05:53 pm:

Two Cents,

Thank you for the info, but that does not answer my real question it just repeats what has already been stated here. The buyer in that article listened in a shop and with different components so the same speakers in his home environment could well sound very different. I'm am not doubting the fact that some people hear something quite different once a speaker has been given a workout over time and 'opened up' I am merely not comprehending how they could sound SO different.

But I am doubting that the answer will be simple :-)

Cheers

SimplyMcIntosh

Bronze Member

Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 53
Registered: Jan-05

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 06:04 pm:

Thanks for all the feedback re: the Spendors. There's much with which to catch up tonight.

What you are seeing is simply a difference in how to state the amount of voltage across the speaker terminals to produce the amplitude given in dB. Over a strict, simple 8 Ohm resistive load, 2.83v will be equivalent to 1 watt. If the resistance dips or rises, the amount of voltage required to amount to 1 watt will also vary according to Ohm's Law

Thank you for that explanation. I'm quite familiar with Murphy's Law but will need to read up on Ohm's Law. I should probably try to learn more about the measurements and specifications. As these posts today indicate, there's more to the eye than just reading about what the specs are and what they can mean and how they translate to the "ear".

It does make sense to me that how "loud" a speaker plays is not a measurement of its value. With the B&W's, I'm used to setting the MA6200 volume at either 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock. With the Spendors it looks like it will be either 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock. I noticed if I set it to 1 o'clock, it triggers Power Guard during certain voice peaks.

I left the system running today and I do believe the break-in period will help. I remember the B&W's continued to sound better with use. The Spendors don't sound "horrible" - I didn't mean to convey that at all. In fact, I would likely be raving about them had I not done A-B the comparison. I can imagine someone else listening with me last night might have preferred the Spendors and described them as more refined and cleaner than the B&W's. They would probably be right.

The only out and out disappointment to me was the delivery of Patsy Cline's "Your Cheatin' Heart" - the Spendors didn't present the energy of the performance in my opinion. Particularly, at the 1:30 mark of the song til the end, it just seems lifeless. In fact, through the whole song, Patsy's voice is exceptionally presented but, the band seems to disappear. When I listen to the performance through the B&W's (or even my Sennheiser headphones) the band's energy is more lively.

MR,
Thanks for the feedback about the bi-wiring and upgrading the speaker cables. Once I get the Spendors settled, I plan to get the Mapleshade cables and think I will try the bi-wiring too.

Well, gotta commute home to start tweaking the speakers! Thanks for all the suggestions in regards to how to listen and test them. More later.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1352
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 06:25 pm:

SM,

I hope those Spendors do 'open up' and offer you the listening pleasure they are renowned for. But, as you say, we all have varying tastes and they may or may not end up 'doing it' for you.

Yes the cable upgrade and tweaks made quite an agreeable difference - I suggest to all, without going to ridiculous expense, it's very worthwhile experimenting in this area. Thanks Jan for the advise.

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2173
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 06:47 pm:

For the most part rantz it's about how much of a change constitutes a big change
for you compared to someone else. And the parts being used.

I've built and tweaked many speakers/xovers and theres certain things I listen
for that when I first started out sometimes drove me crazy. I'd get the speakers
where I'd want them and after a while to me they were all jacked up again because
I didn't allow for breakin before trying to finalize the cabinet stuffing or xover.
Then I would have to start all over.

So to one person the sibilance may be to overwhelming for them at first and
if that was the final result may absolutly hate that speaker but if a certain
wire/driver/capacitor/coil was used that changed enough to where it kept the
detailed high end but the sibilance was gone then for that person it might
be a drastic change.

Or if the speaker had a boxy sound! after breakin the midrange stuffing may settle
and the hardness of the kevlar driver may start to flex better and give you a
more open sound verses the hard driver and unsettled packing in the cabinet.

There are many many things in the speaker that change with use and certain
materials change more than others. If all these things change and don't
counteract one another you could get a substantial change.

It all depends on parts used to build the speaker.
And some manufacturers do burn in there drivers and passive xover parts
prior to building speakers.

So yes when you go audition something you are taking chance it won't sound
like that after breakin let alone in your place with your equipment.
If your curious about a piece equipment it's good to ask how long it's been in use.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1353
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 07:10 pm:

Kegger,

Thanks. That goes some way to clearing up the wide variation that can occur after speaker break in. So it obviously pays to have a 'satisfaction' refund period when purchasing new speakers, Unfortunately, there are very few retailers who will provide that option (at least in Aus anyway). I'm glad I'm satisfied with ours at present. It's a bit like test driving a Porche and a few weeks and a few hundred kilometres later, after selling your soul to the devil to pay for it, find out that you were happier with the 'vette :-)

Ben James

Silver Member

Username: Black_math

Post Number: 205
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 08:37 am:

I remember saying that somebody may enjoy the B&W Speakers more than the Spendors... I think we have a case of a little bit of over-hype on the Spendors...kind of like the Bose 901 when it came out. I guess that is why there is not a universal speaker design.

There may be a reason that you can find a B&W dealer in most cities in the U.S.

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 794
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:10 am:

I also remember someone giving an opinion on a Spendor without actually listening to them...............

Ben James

Silver Member

Username: Black_math

Post Number: 206
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:50 am:

I also remember somebody reccomending Spendors without listening to the B&W's. The same somebody was gushing over Maggies and then Ohm, before the Spendors in a short period of time.

The important thing to remember here is that everybody has their own opinion. Not everybody thinks McIntosh (or Bryston, Levinson, Boulder, etc...) makes the best amp. Not everybody thinks tube amps are the best. I would be very wary about dropping $$$ on a component based upon an opinion without first demoing.

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 564
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:00 am:

Rick: All of the above information speaks to my reticence to purchase several speakers - I had not actually listened to them. I finally auditioned both Paradigm and B&W 705s - and, as you know, "accidentally" found some used 705s in an out-dated Audiogon ad.

BTW - the selling chap said he shipped out the speakers Thursday night - but FedEx says it only has the shipping info - not the speakers themselves so far. Guess that means they've not yet been physically picked up? Hmm. . .

When I have commented to Ghia re the Spendors it was only in line with what I had read by reviewers, either professionals or customers. I believe that she read the same reviews, and concluded that the speakers might be "right" for her.

So - what do/can reviews tell/teach us? Good question, and all I can say is that I use reviews constantly as guidelines. Without them, I'd be truly "flying blind" in the wacky world of stereo.

SMAC - I sincerely hope that your Spendors "age" well, and sound better than they did in your initial listening tests. So many people on this forum repeat, repeat, repeat that equipment is subjective. Yep.

Kegger: As you have built a number of speakers - here's my situation. I have these Radio Shack speakers, whose tweeters I've unplugged, and which sound much better without them!

In digging into the metal cabinets, I find only a rather thin bit of "insulation" pasted on the walls. Would it be to my advantage to put more insulation into the cabinets?

What I have is a 4" polyprop woofer in a cabinet about 9 inches high by 5 inches wide and deep. It's I think aluminum, and fairly heavy. There is a tube-port that extends from mid-cabinet out the back of the cabinet - a tube about 3/4" in diameter - bass loading? Hmmm. . .

I thought some foam might cut down the sort of "metal boxy" sound that they produce. Any suggestions welcome - except that I re-connect those grainy, scratchy tweeters! (grin)

BTW - in researching several brands of small surround speakers, I find that many use a single, 3" driver without tweeter and crossover. Interesting. That's why I thought my liddle "woofer" might well do a fairly good job for me. Turns out, it has - sorta. . .

More anon, with thanks. . .

Silver Member

Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 565
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:03 am:

Ben James - sorry, I posted the above before your post came Online. Yes - spending before auditioning is a dangerous business.

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 795
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:12 am:

The difference is I know the B&W's in question, and have owned B&W's in the past. They are fine speakers. I gave my opinion, and my opinion only, on the Maggies, Ohms, and Spendors. I just asked people who were interested, to give a listen. I never told anyone this is what you should buy. I would never be so bold. But I would never offer an opinion on something I never listened to. I still own the Ohms and the S3/5's.

And yes, everyone has their own opinion, and are entitled to it.

Gold Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1355
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:32 am:

Larry,

I have all fingers crossed for you !

Ben,

"I remember saying that somebody may enjoy the B&W Speakers more than the Spendors..."

Profound! :-)

Rick,

When are you going to fire up that jolly Jolida? BTW - I remember someone saying that somebody may enjoy the B&W Speakers more than the Spendors . . . could it be just hype maybe?

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 796
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:45 am:

Bless you Rantz. You can always make me laugh.

As I posted under "TUBE TALK", I got as far as unpacking the amp and putting in the tubes. I hope to fire it up tonight. I will keep you all informed.