| Author |
Thread: Archive through December 09, 2004 |
    
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 673
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 12:57 pm: |
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Hi All,
I thought I would move the tube discussions off "Old Dogs", so the ones with no interest in tubes would not be distracted.
My biggest concern with an SET, is I feel I will be limiting my speaker choices because of power.
I'm leaning to an integrated push-pull for the additional power. I would like to hear my S3/5's and perhaps Maggies with tubes.
Any thoughts? Jan-Kegger |
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Relevant Product Info
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1930
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:00 pm: |
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Rick I agree with you!
That is the same delema I'm pondering.
I have some very effecient speakers that would work on an set of
say 7 watts or so but I don't really want to limit myself to only
those speakers. If I get a really nice amp I'd like to use more of the
speakers I own and leave my choices more open.
But having said that I think I may try one anyways because of the tubes
I allready own!
But I do understand where your coming from.
I think jan feels different in the fact he feels the amp would
be more flexable and you don't "need" the watts.
I probably agree you don't "need" the watts to drive the lesser effeicent
speakers but feel a more powerful amp would drive them better.
That's just my opinion!
How many watts are you contemplating and what db rating are the speakers
you want to drive? As I've been told maggies can be difficult to drive!
But if we could get others to chime in on what they've done maybe it would help. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1931
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:04 pm: |
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Frank may be a good candidate also as he seems pretty upto date
on the goings on with todays equipment!
Frank any thoughts?
Or anyone else with tube experience? |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 675
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:13 pm: |
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Kegger,
My Spendors are 86db 8 ohm. The Maggies are about the same only 4 ohm load. Are you telling me you can drive either of these with a 4-7 watt SET? I find that hard to believe. If I go with a push-pull I would probably be looking at something 30-50 watts.
What do you think? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1932
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:32 pm: |
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Rick I agree with you!
But so many have tried to say "it's the first watt that counts"
And "most people on a dily basis use on averge less then 10 watts"
I agree with you and find that hard to believe!
But I can also see you getting good sound out of a 7 watt amp with
86db speakers, but I wonder how well it really will perform compared to
say 50 watts!
I believe the 50 would produce better results as long as the amp is still
a really nice amp! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1933
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:41 pm: |
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Every pair of speakers I have are at least 90db.
And I have about 11 pairs of speakers!
Some are 100db or higher! so an set of say 7 watts I could utilize
fairly well on about half of my speakers.
So I'm probably going to go that route!
But I'm still gathering info. As to what I really want.
Not to mention I now have 7 tube amps all from say 30 watts to 60 a channel. |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 676
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:47 pm: |
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Kegger,
What is it with the cult like appeal with SET amps? What is the difference in sound between a SET and push-pull tube amp? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1934
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 03:42 pm: |
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This is a clip from someone owning the golden tube audio se-40's
that I own!
"Tonight, I thought I would listen to our Golden Tube SE40 (first model) 40x40 single ended triode since I pretty much abandoned it after completion of the Zen amp project. After about 10 minutes I remembered all the reasons I abandoned it, and reminisced about how good it used to sound, and how well it compared with high dollar amps. To read reviews on it alone is a paradox about underdogs wining the fidelity wars.
The sound of the SE40 didn't change, it sounds just the same as always, but now after listening to this inferior looking Zen amp 2x2 watts single ended triode my reference has changed. The Golden Tube SE40 now seems cold, thin, grainy, unfocussed, and this is what really surprises me,.. slow! It shouldn’t be possible for a 5 watt 500 dollar amp to walk all over an 80 watt 1000 dollar amp that walks all over several popular 2500 dollar amps, but it does. That’s Zen."
Cold, thin, grainy that is what I feel going from ultralinier to triode!
Then you read people say from triode to these ultra low power
"flea amps" it goes one better. Which is what I thought from
solid state to tube in the first place.
Now the only triodes I have experience with are my se-40's and
the rogue audio 88 that I can switch to triode. To me they sound
better in triode "creamy , clear , focused" then the non triode
amps I've been listening to. And the little set's are suppose to
have even better control on that. The st-70's I have sound really
good in the mid, with the modded ones sounding good in the high
end also, but they don't have the contol or are as clear as the se-40
or the rogue.
I have not listened to any of the little guy's to tell you what to
think. I can only go by the passion I read people have for these
amps. So I'm intrigued to find out! It would seem from what I read
they do what the other triodes do but better!
Don't know if that is any help rick but that is where I'm at right now! |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 677
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 03:51 pm: |
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Kegger,
Thank you my friend. It looks like we're in the same boat, so let's keep rowing.............LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1935
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:12 pm: |
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Sounds good rick let's see what happens sounds like the thing to do.
maybe will get some folks with some ideas in here.
And I'm sure jan has something to contribute! |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 678
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:18 pm: |
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Bring it on folks..........we are all ears! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:06 pm: |
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There's some typing to do for this post and you guys know when I get to typing it's hard to stop. I've got to get some errands run right now; but, I had three cups of espresso this afternoon so I'm probably set for being awake for awhile. I'll try to get back to you both later tonight. Until then I need to get some of your ideas before I go off in some unknown territory that doesn't benefit any of us.
How much money are we talking about for the purchase? I assume Rick has no interest in DIY or modding an older amp while Kegger would prefer that route. How many inputs and flexiblity are you needing? Can a simple one input w/ volume control work? Rick, have you thought about any specific speakers other than the Spendors and the Maggies? Kegger, with 11 pair of speakers to choose from what do you mean when you say more flexibility?
A few quick words to get you thinking about some things I'll discuss more when I have time.
One of the largest power drags in most speakers is the X-over. A typical woofer can be in the mid 90's as far as efficiency and many tweeters are still around 90 dB in their raw form. It's when you stick a few resistors, caps and particularly inductors that the power starts to get eaten up in heat instead of volume. Kegger, you may have more to contribute to this discussion. If you start to look at speakers with very simple (or no X-over) your power is going to making music instead of heating a coil. You are also staying with the important concept of SET in that you are putting the least amount of components between the input and the speaker's voice coil. That should, when done properly, translate into more power for dynamics and less "fuzzines" to the music making the whole more important than any one part. So taking a speaker like the Spica Angelus where the system efficiency is not extremely high but the X-over is reasonably simple can mean a very easy load on the amp that can operate with much less power than a speaker like a Theil where the first order X-overs with the complex frequency compensation networks can eat up watts that the drivers then never see.
The added dynamics of a simple circuit in the speaker and amp add up to not having to play the system at a higher average level. The average power output goes down and the dynamics go up. A win/win proposition.
If I were looking at a smaller wattage amp and wanted Maggies I would be looking at the small set that Magnaplanar is selling direct from the factory. I think they're the MGC (?) and they sell for around $550 a pair. And have you ever been around Maggies for any length of time? As great as they are they don't sell to the average Joe because of some specific things they do and don't do. Are you aware of their limitations as well as their strengths? I'm all for the Maggies but they are not for everyone. I'll type more about that when I have time.
Rick, have you talked to Mapleshade yet?
Any other quetsions you have list them for me and I'll try to answer as much as I can at one time.
If you can tell me one more thing. It somewhat goes with the discussion we've had on Old Dogs. Think about the best sound you've heard and see if you can tell me what it was about that sound that made it so good and possibly different to you. From there I think we can talk about what's the deal with SET's.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:21 pm: |
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I like the title you chose, Rick. Kind of like "Car Talk" without the call in questions. Instead of Click and Clack, are you two guys going to be Plate and Cathode?
Went a long way for that one, didn't I?
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1937
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:29 pm: |
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"How much money are we talking about for the purchase? I assume Rick has no interest in DIY or modding an older amp while Kegger would prefer that route. How many inputs and flexiblity are you needing? Can a simple one input w/ volume control work? Rick, have you thought about any specific speakers other than the Spendors and the Maggies? Kegger, with 11 pair of speakers to choose from what do you mean when you say more flexibility? "
If I could get by for $500 or less would be great.
Generally like to mod someone elses creation.
But if there was a complete kit where I didn't have to research parts
on my own that would be good too.
I'm looking at either 1 (2) channel amp or 2 mono blocks would be cool.
Just basic amps, rca in's and speaker outs.
Well like I mentioned Jan my speakers are fairly sensitive
but I don't want some 2 watt amp that can only drive a couple pairs of
my speakers. I'd like to drive a few different sets so I can pick and choose.
(maybe around 8-10 watts)
___________________________________________________
Ok Jan I think I see where your going with the xover and I was thinking
something simular earlier!
Normally when I was designing a speaker for myself I needed power handling
as to not burn up the drivers because of volume I would like to get from
time to time. so I would incorporate at least a second order xover,
As to keep the unwanted frequencies from entering the drivers with a
good amount of power accosiated with them so I wanted at least a 12db filter.
Now knowing that I'm only having say 10 watts to deal with, I don't need
to protect the drivers as much so a 6db xover should be fine. And less
parts in the signal path the better! YES SIR!
__________________________________________________
Now the part I'm wondering about is if your saying a set of speakers of
86db with say a xover of 4th order,
and a set of speakers of 86db with say a xover of 1st order.
If I put 1 watt of power through them your saying the ones with the
1st order xover will have more volume?
I'm not disputing this I'm asking!
Or are you saying take those 86db speakers with the 4th order xover
and redo that xover with a 1st order and you'll end up with more sensitivity
because the drivers themselves are higher effiency but the xover
was holding them back.(That I know is correct)
____________________________________________________
"If you can tell me one more thing. It somewhat goes with the discussion we've had on Old Dogs. Think about the best sound you've heard and see if you can tell me what it was about that sound that made it so good and possibly different to you. From there I think we can talk about what's the deal with SET's."
Don't know if this what your after.
But one of my favorite things to listen to is stewart copelands (police)
drum kit, from the exceptional cymbal use to the sound of the rest of his kit
The drums just pop and sound so life like, that on a good sounding pair
of speakers with a good amp sounds like he's right there playing them
in the room not recorded but right there in the room.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1938
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:30 pm: |
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"I like the title you chose, Rick. Kind of like "Car Talk" without the call in questions. Instead of Click and Clack, are you two guys going to be Plate and Cathode? "
Jan that was bad! lol
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J/ Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 08:31 pm: |
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" ... a set of speakers of
86db with say a xover of 4th order,
and a set of speakers of 86db with say a xover of 1st order.
If I put 1 watt of power through them your saying the ones with the
1st order xover will have more volume?"
Not exactly. One of the things that has to happen with small wattage amps like an SET is a total rethinking of everything you've thought about hifi until this point. Somewhat like when you first heard tubes or PIO caps there is a level of musicality that is not what Best Buy wants to sell you.
When you're dealing with miniscule watts you don't think so much in terms of "volume" as you are now used to the idea. "Volume" gets replaced by a sense of life in the music. If you and I are on the same page with tubes, one of the things that happens with tubes vs. solid state is the tubes open up the music and add a sense of life to the sound that transcends the measurements. 40 watts of tubes don't sound like 40 watts of solid state. And not just in terms of "volume". You hear "deeper" into the recording and find yourself listening in an almost entirely new manner. The idea of "BASS" is replaced by the sound of bass. The concept of clarity is replaced by hearing more music. The sense of impact is replaced by dynamics. The idea that you are listening to the music is replaced by the music just being there.
I think one thing that will be very different for anyone listening to SET's is an initial idea of listening beyond the recording. If you've been following the idea I've mentioned a few times on Old Dogs about listening to old recordings from the twenty's and thirty's and hearing what is good about them despite the obvious flaws in the recording chain of the time, then you can get an idea of what is likely to be your experience the first time you hear music through an SET. If you're going to pick apart the sound on a purely hifi basis, then an SET may not do exactly what you want in your system. I'm not implying how you listen is wrong or needs to change; but, listening to an SET is more about listening to the music and less about listening to your hifi. The details of the recording can be replaced by the sense of musicality. The impact of SET's comes from the way in which they present the music. In a good SET it is almost as if the music is nak*d. Stripped down to bare essentials that say "music"! It's fast (that word may not mean exactly what I want right there) and easy to listen to, smooth if you can hear beyond the limitations of the small wattage. The idea of cleaning a window is pretty overused and I think there's a better way to have it make sense. Try this; since you got the tubes you've been listening, in a way, to the parts of your amps. You've heard the new caps and resistors and how they change the music. Now, when you listen to an SET, you are going to take all that away. Because you are listening to a simple circuit you are going to find the parts make more difference than ever. But if you focus on the parts, you will miss the show. If you entranced by the gal in tights, you'll miss the music behind her. Kind of like making a good Marinara sauce, you can't get the best tatse unless you use the absolute best ingredients. When everything depends on four or five ingredients, there's no room for anything but the best if you want the feshness and the life of the sauce to come through. An SET is the same idea. Strip it down to the very minimum and the ingredients either meld into something that is greater than the sum of the parts or they don't. It's a sense of putting a fork full of perfect pasta, with just the absolute correct amount of sauce, with just a dusting of Parmigiano Reggiano over the top, in your mouth. It's the look, the smell, the taste, the textur and the sense that this is as good as it gets is the most important thing in the world right at that instant. It's the impact of right now. It is the stuff that makes you want more. It is the perfect realization of pasta and Marinara sauce. Then like a drink of Chianti Classico, the trumpet player hits a soft, muted note, and that sets the stage for the next bite. If on the other hand you think buffet at Pizza Inn is pretty good, then ...
Does that make sense? Does that begin to answer the question?
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 679
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 09:56 pm: |
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Jan,
Welcome to "Tube Talk". I'm glad you like the title. Thanks in advance for your participation. Why do I get the feeling you and Kegger are going to be the patron saints? LOL!
No I'm not a DIY guy, so for the sake of this tube experiment, let's put a ceiling of $1000 for an integrated amp. I will only be using a CD player for source.
I had a pair of Maggie 1.6's so I do know the pro and cons of the beast. With tubes I would go with the MMG's as you mentioned with a small sub to fill out the bottom.
I know exactly what you mean by listening deeper into the music, and not listening to the system or components. It wasn't until I got the Mac that I got my first taste of that. As you know I have owned and heard a lot of high-end gear, but nothing, until now, presented music and got out of the way, like the Mac. If there is a next level, I want to hear it. Also, if you have any other speaker suggestions other than the Spendors or Maggies, let me know.
No I haven't called Mapleshade. I would only be interested in the integrated amps not the receiver. But they are not SET's, am I correct in that assumption? |
New member Username: Raymond
Post Number: 4
Registered: Nov-04
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:09 pm: |
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So I'm not the only guy in MI looking for some high efficiency speakers for my SET (13 watt EAR 859)...Where can you audition anything that will work taht you don't have to build...like Coincident, Living Voice, Silverline, PCM etc |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1940
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
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Raymond Plummer : good to hear another michigander!
where abouts you at?
I'm in warren. And I haven't gotten into the magic little amps yet.
So I have'nt been looking for the right speakers yet.
But I agree I don't remember much out there besides klipsch.
If were close enough to one another maybe we should comunicate from email
and discuss what's up in michigan.
JUst click on my name to the left and send me an email.
______________________________________________________
If you've got something to contribute to our discussion , throw it out there.
Any and all are welcome.
I'm into tubes and building speakers but have'nt gotten into the little guys yet! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1941
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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JAN:
"Not exactly. One of the things that has to happen with small wattage amps like an SET is a total rethinking of everything you've thought about hifi until this point. Somewhat like when you first heard tubes or PIO caps there is a level of musicality that is not what Best Buy wants to sell you."
I can relate to that as I had to when I went tubes in the first place.
"When you're dealing with miniscule watts you don't think so much in terms of "volume" as you are now used to the idea. "Volume" gets replaced by a sense of life in the music. If you and I are on the same page with tubes, one of the things that happens with tubes vs. solid state is the tubes open up the music and add a sense of life to the sound that transcends the measurements. 40 watts of tubes don't sound like 40 watts of solid state. And not just in terms of "volume". You hear "deeper" into the recording and find yourself listening in an almost entirely new manner. The idea of "BASS" is replaced by the sound of bass. The concept of clarity is replaced by hearing more music. The sense of impact is replaced by dynamics. The idea that you are listening to the music is replaced by the music just being there."
The first part of that I can relate to as in tube watts seem to
produce more music per watt then solid state.
And the second part I like the way tubes suck you into the music and seem
to have more feeling to them. But I still find myself listening to the
intruements and the way tubes seem to excentuate what that instrument is
all about with a greater clarity.
" think one thing that will be very different for anyone listening to SET's is an initial idea of listening beyond the recording. If you've been following the idea I've mentioned a few times on Old Dogs about listening to old recordings from the twenty's and thirty's and hearing what is good about them despite the obvious flaws in the recording chain of the time, then you can get an idea of what is likely to be your experience the first time you hear music through an SET. If you're going to pick apart the sound on a purely hifi basis, then an SET may not do exactly what you want in your system. I'm not implying how you listen is wrong or needs to change; but, listening to an SET is more about listening to the music and less about listening to your hifi"
Well I think I'm going to have to experience it for myself and see if there
for me or weather I start listening differently because of what they
have to offer. I've been able to appeciate tubes over solid state maybe now I
need to take the next step "and see if I appreciate music over electronics"
It's entirely possable that the little guys go away from what I love
And enjoy about my tubes right now to the point I go back to my other amps.
But I think I need to hear what all the fuss is about.
Anyone have any thoughts on what Jan and I have just bantered about?
Jan even?
Rick what are your thoughts at this monent on what weve heard.
(for yourself and me)
It sounds like set's are right up your alley!
And it's just a case of what amp with what speakers!
Does that sound about right?
Any thoughts on how I seem to like the instruments more than the
music they play?
My enjoyment seems to come from the sound of the instruement!
Anyone else think like that?
You can all give your honest opinion, I'm not fighting hear just
wondering others thoughts.
Rick you ever thought like that or has it allways been the way
it is for you?
Don't get me wrong I must appreciate music too, other wise I wouldn't love
or hate certain songs. But the ones that seem to really get me going as
something truly extrodinary are the ones where the intruments just sound
so real! and you can hear every lick so vivid and clear that you imagine
the instrument is right there!
Anyways that's what I got!
Anyone else care to share there music enjoyment?
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 11:23 pm: |
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Raymond - I afraid I can't help you with your question about where to listen. The speakers that are typically used with SET's don't suit the tastes of most other audio gear buyers. If the dealer is selling mostly NAD and Denon they have to stock speakers they can pair with those amps. Jeff Rowland and Mark Levinson get their speakers. The little guys get ignored or, at best, a pair gets shoved into a back room. The SET industry, if it can be called that, has sprung up out of the internet like other specialty markets that can reach a wide audience digitally. Unfortunately that isn't a great way to audition audio gear. But, it is the most common way available to most people. If you have a speaker you are interested in hearing, I would contact the manufacturer. Often they have arranged for auditions in the homes of current owners in your area.
I'm sure your contributions concerning what you hear from your amp, what you replaced and what speakers you are currently using would be of interest to this discussion.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 11:32 pm: |
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Let me start my part here with the idea, as Kegger implied, anything said here will be meant without any prejudice. No judgement passed on anyone or anything. If I say something you interpret as a slight, it will not have been intended that way. This is to impart some knowledge and share some opinions and experiences. No one should get their feelings hurt by anything that is put in this thread. Of course, that doesn't mean we can intentionally take a swipe at somebody. But let's not get our nose bumped while on this thread.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1943
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 11:38 pm: |
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Sounds good jan!
I'm just putting myself and my ideas out there for others to ponder.
I'm still trying to figure where I'm headed but feal the only way to get
where I'm going is to be honest.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:05 am: |
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A few things to consider when reading about SE amps. It will be important to remember these items as we discuss SE and low power amps. Please remember these items when you read ads and write ups for products. There is a lot of BS out there.
A triode tube is the simplest amplification device in existence.
A triode can be employed in either a single ended amp or a push-pull design.
A pentode can be used in a SE design. It just wastes the idea of a pentode and goes against the tenets of Se operation. So it isn't usually done.
A pentode is a triode with two extra components inside the tube for higher gain and power and less noise in the circuit.
A pentode, or a beam power tube, can be run as a triode at reduced power from the circuit.
A triode can be either a small signal tube like the 12AX7 found in pre amp and driver stages; or, it can be a power output tube such as a 300B.
Many triodes have two part construction. There are two identical halves inside the tube and they can be run together, or separately or one half can be ignored.
Tubes, whether triode or pentode, can be run in parallel for more power and lower output impedance.
Simple circuits such as SE will have an inherently high output impedance compared to a push-pull design.
Tube amplifiers typically have a higher output impedance than a solid state amplifier.
A higher output impedance means the amplifier will be more adversely affected by the load it sees on its outputs by the speaker. Frequency response and damping factor will be afffected.
I am unaware of a pre amp that you're likely to listen to that isn't a Class A design and run, essentially, as a single ended gain stage.
Since SE amps have no crossover point where the signal is passed to another tube or tube section, I know of no SE amp that isn't a Class A design by nature.
Class A is, of course, inherently inefficient in terms of power vs. energy production. This normally means a Class A amp will run very hot and produce minimal amounts of power vs. a Class AB amp run in push-pull.
Whether an amplifier is SE or push-pull isn't the point.
In an amplifier, the design is everything.
In an amplifier, the parts selection is everything.
In an amplifer, the construction is everything.
In life, none of this matters.
In reality, the music is all that matters.
Those are where I'll start. I may think of others as we go along but that will do for now. Anybody can add anything they care to on to the list. anybody can question any of the above. Now that I've told you to remember these things, you can forget them all except the final one. When dealing with SE and small wattage amps it's the only thing you should consider important.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:08 am: |
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A few things to consider when reading about SE amps. It will be important to remember these items as we discuss SE and low power amps. Please remember these items when you read ads and write ups for products. There is a lot of BS out there.
A triode tube is the simplest amplification device in existence.
A triode can be employed in either a single ended amp or a push-pull design.
A pentode can be used in a SE design. It just wastes the idea of a pentode and goes against the tenets of Se operation. So it isn't usually done.
A pentode is a triode with two extra components inside the tube for higher gain and power and less noise in the circuit.
A pentode, or a beam power tube, can be run as a triode at reduced power from the circuit.
A triode can be either a small signal tube like the 12AX7 found in pre amp and driver stages; or, it can be a power output tube such as a 300B.
Many triodes have two part construction. There are two identical halves inside the tube and they can be run together, or separately or one half can be ignored.
Tubes, whether triode or pentode, can be run in parallel for more power and lower output impedance.
Simple circuits such as SE will have an inherently high output impedance compared to a push-pull design.
Tube amplifiers typically have a higher output impedance than a solid state amplifier.
A higher output impedance means the amplifier will be more adversely affected by the load it sees on its outputs by the speaker. Frequency response and damping factor will be afffected.
I am unaware of a pre amp that you're likely to listen to that isn't a Class A design and run, essentially, as a single ended gain stage.
Since SE amps have no crossover point where the signal is passed to another tube or tube section, I know of no SE amp that isn't a Class A design by nature.
Class A is, of course, inherently inefficient in terms of power vs. energy production. This normally means a Class A amp will run very hot and produce minimal amounts of power vs. a Class AB amp run in push-pull.
Whether an amplifier is SE or push-pull isn't the point.
In an amplifier, the design is everything.
In an amplifier, the parts selection is everything.
In an amplifer, the construction is everything.
In life, none of this matters.
In reality, the music is all that matters.
Those are where I'll start. I may think of others as we go along but that will do for now. Anybody can add anything they care to on to the list. anybody can question any of the above. Now that I've told you to remember these things, you can forget them all except the final one. When dealing with SE and small wattage amps it's the only thing you should consider important.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:17 am: |
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Kegger - I'm not certain a SE amp will satisfy you. With your taste in music and preference for some volume, you represent the end of the spectrum that I don't see often discussing their love of SE amps. Not that there aren't rockers with SE amps, but, as I said, SE is about hearing things differently; so you may open up to some new types of music when your done. Maybe not, we'll wait and see.
Raymond, if your still with us, why don't you fill us in on your system and the music you listen to.
Kegger, your stated reasons for wanting to hear SE make you a good candidate to at least try SE. I know you'll learn some things if you decide SE is what you want to listen to as we go along. So I'm looking forward to learning some things from you if you decide SE is better that beer.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1944
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:33 am: |
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I agree completely jan with your last post!
That is why I'm not sure what route I want to go.
Maybe a 300b push pull?
Maybe a different tube we have not discussed in either push pull or triode?
I'm up for suggestions as to what might benifet from my taste in music!
I'm going to do more resaerch on 300b push pull,
sounds intrigueing!
Any thoughts?
But I agree a flea power set may not be for me.
But I'd like to think theres a design out their that may lend it's hand
in the way it's designed to what I prefer.
If not owell I'll keep trying. I don't give up!
Most of the time I do not listen with volume up there a lot but moderitely
on the louder side with the every now and then that music makes me! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1945
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:35 am: |
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What about you jan?
No fleas for you?
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:51 am: |
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I would suggest you read this review that has been placed on the forum. It is about an amplifer designed by Nelson Pass. Pass, for those that don't know him, has been around audio for four decades or more. He is best known for his line of Threshold Class A amps from the 80's and 90's. He is a designer who is a manufacturer who is a tinkerer. He is very free with many of his designs and has designs he gives away on http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=www.passdiy.com.
Pass has forgotten more about audio than most groups of people can remember. One of his many talents is the ability to make things understandable to the average reader.
I think if you read this article you will have a little better idea where this discussion can go
and the problems that SE and small amps face in the real world.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1204/firstwattf1.htm
You may also want to glance at this site:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/audion.htm
One point the second article makes that I would say is important is the approach to picking speakers for SE/SW (Small Wattage) amps. Many people who don't care for the sound of SE amps consider them to be expensive tone controls. A point you should have more understanding for if you've read the article on the Pass amplifier.
One of the drawbacks to a SE amp is the speaker, not so much in terms of efficiency; but, in terms of how it interacts with the SE amp's output impedance. This suggests that a SE amp be purchased with a suitable speaker in mind. A SE amp and speaker are more dependent upon one another than any other combination of two items I can think of in audio. Without a suitable match in both directions a venture into a SE amp can be a disaster. As I indicated to Raymond, most speakers for SE amps are designed to go, almost exclusively, with SE amps. That means a speaker being high efficiency by itself means little other than you will get sufficient volume out of the combination. The SE listening experience is about more than just the volume. The direction many speakers designed for SE use are taking is away from horns and into full range drivers, usually from either Fostex or Lowther. These full range speakers need no X-over, so no power is wasted in the electronics of the speaker itself. When choosing a SE amp and a suitable speaker, you are really picking the sound of the combination to be to your choosing. I know the argument can be made that is the same aproach in a conventional system; but, SE makes the combined decision even more important.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1946
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:53 am: |
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Recommended Speakers for SE Amps
http://www.welbornelabs.com/recomendspeaks.htm |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1947
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:57 am: |
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High Efficiency Speakers
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/HUG/bbs.html |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:00 am: |
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What about you jan?
No fleas for you?
No, I'm quite happy with the McIntosh MC240 tube amps that I use. They strike a good balance for me of what is good about a musical approach to design no matter what the topology of the amp might be. Given the nature of a tube amp, they have many strengths and few weaknesses in my opinion.
The flea watters have intrigued me but not enough to say I want something different than the Macs in my system. The value I place on having a product that will be supported and have value in the future rules out the DIY designs, and they are the SE amps that I personally find most interesting.
We'll see what happens through this thread with you guys. Maybe I'll change my mind, but it hasn't been an issue for me so far.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:11 am: |
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http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=melhuish%20single%20driver
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:25 am: |
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Those are good places to start with research on speakers and they give some good info on SE amps also.
A few things to mention here:
A tube amp using transformers on the output of the tubes will not increase its power output when connected to a lower impedance, say 4 Ohm, load the same way a solid state amp will. You will be hooking the speakers to the appropriate tap on the output transformer and this will maintain the output impedance of the amp vs. the actual load. So a 15 watt transformer coupled tube amp will make about the same 15 watts no matter what speaker you put on the outputs assuming the match is correct between the tap and the speaker. Looking at a 4 Ohm speaker will not get you an extra 3 dB of volume with a SE amp.
You can change the sound of your amp slightly by mismatching the tap to the load but then you will change power output and distortion.
There are OTL, output transformerless, tube amps wher there aer no transformers on the output of the tubes to lower the impedance. Many tubes are run in parallel to lower the impedance and the sound is then the closest sound to the tubes themselves without the transformer getting in the way. Transformers are the heart and soul of a tube amp and making a good transformer is not hard. Making a great transformer is quite a feat of engineering and production. The best known OTL's are the Futterman amps. OTL's were the rage back in the late 80's to the early 90's. Like SET's they are a throwback to an earlier time in audio. They face many of the same impediments that SET's will find. Because of the number of output tubes needed to sufficiently lower the output impedance, OTL's are expensive to buy and maintain.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1948
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:27 am: |
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Jan it's interesting your mac's and my se-40's along with the rogue 88.
your macs using the small signal tubes with the 6l6gc's
my se-40's using the 6l6gc's with the 6sn7 signal tubes.
The rogue uses 6550/kt88 power tubes but the small signal tubes!
Three amps simular in design but the manufacturers chose
differnt tube layouts.
Right now I'm prefering the se-40's as a little better control.
But the se-40's are modded so I don't know if things were done to the rogue
if it would be up there with the golden tube audio's!
Just food for thought. |
HELP PLEASE MAN Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:32 am: |
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yo i got a ?
i wana get one Alpine type X 12' that has a peak power of 3000 watts and a RMS of 1000 watts..what amp that is 500$ or less can i buy that will make the sub bump?!?! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1949
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:38 am: |
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You need to ask these questions in the car audio forum not home audio!
No one here will know the answer to your question but someone in car audio might! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 02:02 am: |
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I think what it will come down to for many people is a push-pull amp is just an easier item to live with. SET is out of the mainstream and takes some effort to understand and live with. Some people like it for that fact alone. Nothing wrong with that. You can avoid having to go into a Best Buy as much as possible.
Which you end up choosing is merely a personal matter. The rewards of either topology can be very interesting. Much more so than just another Pioneer receiver from Circuit City.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1950
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 02:33 am: |
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Yu know what haven't ever discused that I can remember is electronic crossover's!
I'd realy like to experiment with them and do some triamping or biamping
with no xovers in the speakers. just the amps conected directly to the drivers.
something like this!
http://www.arcdb.ws/EC3/EC3.html |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 02:35 am: |
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" I can only go by the passion I read people have for these
amps. So I'm intrigued to find out! It would seem from what I read
they do what the other triodes do but better!"
The passion people feel about these amps is real. The passion for the music is real. Whether they suit your needs within a system is a choice you have to make.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 02:39 am: |
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That's an awful lot of caps there, Kegger.
http://www.arcdb.ws/EC3/ARC_EC3_top.jpg
Now you're headed off into a different direction. You might call Audio Research and ask them about their X-over. I would guess they wouldn't suggest it be used with a small wattage amp.
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