Tube Talk

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10019
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, March 16, 2007 - 12:59 pm:

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Thought she was james dean for a day, and the colored girls go, doo da doo da doo da doo ...

Relevant Product Info

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6374
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, March 16, 2007 - 01:17 pm:

Do's and dont's for today.

I brougt my Rotel cdp up for a run this afternoon, but got a nightshift worker downstairs.
In the 'ever so quiet' mode, it sounds OK. 1W.
I love these Ling's...

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA
USA

Post Number: 1415
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 05:03 pm:

Had my first experience with blown fuse after blown fuse before I finally took a step back and did research. Didn't know that's what happens when tubes go bad. Trying some SED 6550's on the power side now, will report on results.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA
USA

Post Number: 1440
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 08:55 pm:

Keg, thanks again for those recommendations on the substitutes(5965 and 5751) for the front end on my setup. I have been so happy with the sound ever since. Thanks again mate!

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6478
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 09:34 pm:

JC, which tubes went bad, and how many hours were on them?
Could the need for your solder repair have led to premature expiration?

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA
USA

Post Number: 1442
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 11:14 pm:

"Could the need for your solder repair have led to premature expiration?"

yep, the one channel that was affected by the loose connection made the eh kt88's go bad on that side. early too, I only had less than 1k hours on them. Oh well, I like the sed 6550's and hopefully all joints are good for a while.

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2776
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:02 am:

Hey no problem Joe you are welcome, glad they worked out for you.

------------------------------

Just got back in shape somewhat after the big AK Fest weekend!

Here's a small writeup from an attendee.
http://wigwamjones.com/audiokarma_fest_2007
The amp he mentions isn't an ST-70 (mine anyway) but an amp I built on an ST-70
chassis I got after an upgrade for someone who wanted a new chassis and the new
upgraded power trannie so I used those to build my 6bg6g amp with, worked out nicely.

Take care guys!

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10093
Registered: May-04

Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 01:04 pm:

.

"Mad genius", eh, Kegger?!

I did notice one heck of an attractive Mac tube amp there. I'm curious why the lamp was heating the one side of the McIntosh MC2500. Do you know what the tall, skinny speakers are in the Manley display?

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA
USA

Post Number: 1445
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 02:59 pm:

Keg, did you get a chance to hear those Fostex DIY horns? the unfinished maple/birch? with the sep super tweeter. I saw those in AS (forget which issue) and they seemed very interesting to say the least.
shown here on the left
Upload

KEGGER

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2777
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 10:50 pm:

Yes the mad genious is a bit eccessive, but I find it funny.

Jan I thought you'd like that Mac made a nice showing, I don't have answers for you though.
When running a room at one of these events you don't get to truly take in everything and get
a lot of time in all the rooms but I do try.

Yes those fostex horns were a big hit, you can buy just the cabs even for like $100 each, then
buy say the 6.5 drivers for $40 each and use a tweeter of your choice to build them a good bit
cheaper, which I am seriously considering for I have plenty of tweeters I could experiment with.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6565
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 10:55 am:

Oh the old Radio Shack Super tweeter might be an option, if available.
I used a lot of them as a kid.

Can't find the Manley. You like that one, Jan?

KEG, thanks for the post, your amp looks teriffic!
I lost the AK thread where you were posting it.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10110
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:35 pm:

.

The RS super tweeter is long out of production. I was just curious about the speaker in the picture.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA
USA

Post Number: 1448
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 02:30 pm:

fostex ff165k full range speaker. I am curious too. Wonder if Tim has any experience with this speaker. Yeah Keg, I saw that the cabinets is available for very cheap unassembled. Hmmmmm

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6579
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 04:15 pm:

Link to the cabs?
And Tim's opinion?

I like the look and the price.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6709
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 02:30 am:

Jes keeping it alive.

Gold Member

Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA
USA

Post Number: 1457
Registered: Mar-05

Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:10 am:

Keep it real Nuck.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4671
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 01:30 pm:

There is a review of an "entry-level" (�890 or so...) "Sino-Australian" Melody integrated tube amp in the June HiFi News. By K. Kessler, who it seems is back on the staff.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1424
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 01:17 pm:

A quick hello and thanks to all for keeping this thread alive.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10390
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 01:35 pm:

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Hello, Rick, where do you have your speakers placed and what kind are you using now?

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1425
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 02:05 pm:

Hi, Jan, I'm glad to see you and the gang are still here. I'm still using my modified Mapleshade type stands and my S3/5's. I really haven't changed equipment in quite a while. I'm just enjoying music instead of listening to equipment. I owe you in large part, for that. How are the Mac's holding up? Didn't I read that one of their original chief engineers retired recently?

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4674
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 02:17 pm:

Let me just chip in and say Hello, Rick. You started one of the most influential threads here, I do believe. All the best.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1426
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 03:21 pm:

Back at you John, and thank you for the kind words.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7199
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 03:54 pm:

Hi Rick. Good to know you are still kickin'.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1427
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 04:20 pm:

Nuck- The rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. LOL! I am glad to see you are enjoying the tube world.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7212
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 05:49 pm:

I think I have outgrown the noob toob setup that I have. I am going to try a pair of Monitor Audio Silver8i speakers with it(91 db) but don't hold out much hope.
I will be on the lookout for another tube amp in the future(Keg said OK to look at his stuff), but I think it spells disaster in the household at the moment.
New cdp, 5 new speakers and a lot of wires donot a happy home make.
You know how it goes:
If Momma ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy.

So true.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10391
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 06:25 pm:

.

The MC240's are doing fine, plugging away at the music everyday. Listening to lots of mono LP's I'm finding for cheap dollars. Not much in the way of soundstage or "palpable presence" around performers, but much easier to concentrate on the music and not the Hifi. And almost every one was recorded direct to master disc/tape so there isn't much in the way of production palavering to muck things up.

Mac doesn't do much in the way of announcements when senior personnel retire, so it's very possible some of the big guys have retired but I haven't read anything of late. They are just trying to keep up with the ones who are slipping from this mortal coil at an ever increasing rate nowdays. Davey O'Brien was one of the latest. Davey was the face of McIntosh for many years as he crossed the country conducting the annual Mac Clinics at dealers. Very nice guy. Lots of the Golden Age guys are fading away. I doubt many of them, no matter how great their contribution, will be remembered for long. This hobby is not much on looking backwards to realize from where the ideas came.

What's a "modified" Mapleshade stand?

.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1428
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 06:51 pm:

I "borrowed" the Mapleshade concept and took a pair of wooden stands I had and cut them down to 10". I cut new maple tops for them and have the bottoms resting on 3 of their brass iso cones. I use 1 cone on the top for time alignment. Very solid bottom end, and a wide and deep soundstage. The only tradeoff is the soundstage is not very high, but I listen from a low futon in the listening area. That space is a loft. Not as many problems as I thought acoustically. I think this is because of the nearfield listening setup (approx. 6'). Anyway, it still gets my old toes tapping.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10393
Registered: May-04

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 10:15 pm:

.

Do you think the soundstage height is an issue of the speakers or the stands? I'm using the 3/5a's on "stands" that get them about 4-5" off the floor and have no complaints regarding soundstaging in any dimension. I considered the Spendors as a replacement for the 3/5a's but the local Spendor dealer doesn't stock the 3/5 or the 3/5SE. For $100 a pair, I'll take a chance on a speaker but for the price of the Spendors, I need to hear the speakers with my amplifiers and in my room before I swap out the Rogers.

.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7227
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 10:22 pm:

Jan, are the Rogers just 'tired' or what are you looking for?

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1429
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 06:38 am:

I'm thinking the height of the soundstage is because of the space they are in. I didn't have the problem in the room in New York.

On the subject of the Spendors, consider sending the Emma's to Florida and I'll send the 3/5's to Texas for a few weeks. If you like them consider Audiogon. I paid less than half of retail for them. Running off to work, I'll check back tonight.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10396
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:19 pm:

.

" ... are the Rogers just 'tired' ... "

No, they are always quite awake and ready to play. They are just thirty some years old. In thoroughbred years ... Whether the magazines still refer to the LS3/5a as a "competitve design" or not, the Spendors and the Harbeths are the new generation of siblings to the original BBC design. I'm not about sticking my head in the sand and saying the 3/5a's are as good I ever expect a speaker to be. Reviews indicate the new speakers are smoother overall, with less emphasis on the BBC curve, capable of "contemporary" high frequency response (though I'm not sold on what "contemporary" HFR amounts to from most of what I've heard) and without the KEF B110's limitations.

Despite all the things the 3/5a's do well, their limitations are still the same as they were thirty years ago. A bit too much volume on a particular disc and the woofer can protest loudly. Since new matched parts are no longer available, on the rare ocassion this happens I look like I'm doing a St. Vitus Day dance on crack trying to get to the twin volume pots on the Audible Illusions pre amp.

The film type KEF tweeter is still very good, even against many contemporary designs, due mostly to excellent parts matching in the original design. But it is still a thirty year old driver that has a touch of veiling at the top despite a 22kHz response and should it be damaged, there are, once again, no longer matched parts available.

Without tightly matched pairs the 3/5a's are no longer true 3/5a's. So, this is a bit like having a classic automobile with matched numbers that will cost plenty and still be reduced in value should a driver or X-over component require replacement. If the speakers weren't everyday drivers for me, this might be a different analysis. Unlike John's pair of Quads, the original Rogers company is effectively out of business and KEF no longer supports the drivers, so there are no more "replacement" 3/5a's available, just expensive clones "cobbled" together from used parts for the most. They are very good parts and, from what I understand, do a very good job since maintaining 3/5as's has become a labor of love and respect for the original. At the moment, however, my pair of original Rogers' 3/5a's from the mid 1970's are worth about as much as I can hope to get from selling them. Therefore, financially, is a swap the smart thing to do? Financially, at this time for me, no. Musically, at this time, hardly, I like what I own. But, I wanted to know where to head should the situation change in any way. That the local Spendor dealer simply chooses not to carry, nor order without a firm committment to purchase, the small speaker in the line is more frustrating than anything else.

For 90% of what I listen to, the Rogers do as well as anything I can afford, or would even consider, and I am not forseeing any problems since I don't listen at high volumes or with thudding bass lines. I was interested in the Spendors and the Harbeths as the next generation of similar sound as I know what type of sound I am likely to find desirable. (Though single driver, full range has also been appealing to me. But, I can't do Quads [never could and I don't expect that to change] and most other SDFR's have compromises the BBC mini-monitors solve. Even if funds were abundant, it's difficult to walk away from this sound.)

I already have convinced myself I don't care for most metal dome tweeters but the reports give these two designs high marks as heirs apparent to the 3/5a's, so I'm interested in hearing what I consider to be two fine speaker company's version of a metal dome tweeter that doesn't so obviously sound like a metal dome tweeter. I've also somewhat convinced myself (without hearing either) the Harbeth would be the speaker I prefer but it is significantly higher priced than the Spendor and available for audition in San Antonio(?), which tends to make me more satisfied with the original 3/5a's for a much longer time period. I tend to be very patient when it comes to getting what I think I want, I'm still waiting for the red Corvette convertible to show up in my driveway. So, the 3/5a's are very likely to continue doing what they do in my room for a very long time.

I don't own the Emmas, Rick. They were only on loan from Tim for a round of reviews amongst the eCoustics members. And though Emma was quite good in many ways, she was in no way a match for, let alone the better of, the 3/5a's and would never have been a consideration for my system. Of the two designs Tim sent out for audition, the Ling is, IMO, by far the better speaker but it couldn't top the Rogers in most respects unless I was in a situation where I was beginning from scratch with limited funds. For one thing, both of Tim's speakers fared much better with lesser amplifiers than the 15 Ohm Rogers will accept. If suddenly, I had neither the Macs nor the Rogers, then the story might be different for me.

.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7253
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 04:45 pm:

I already have convinced myself I don't care for most metal dome tweeters but the reports give these two designs high marks as heirs apparent to the 3/5a's

Who's reports do you regard, Jan?

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10405
Registered: May-04

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 07:25 pm:

.

I think everyone who has reviewed these two speakers has said as much. There would be little reason to doubt the logic with or without reviews since both Spendor and Harbeth are considered industry wide as the standard bearers for the continuation of the BBC sound, Harbeth a bit more so than Spendor and certainly so in mini-monitors. The new Stirling V2 3/5a's seem to be more aimed at maintaining the original's balance with new drivers and X-over, Stirling claiming the original's drop in replacement for any existing 3/5a.

.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1430
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 08:17 pm:

Jan,

The offer was sincere. If you want to audition a pair of 3/5's just send me something I can listen to while you audition them. No time limit on the offer. Just let me know.

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7256
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 08:27 pm:

Jan, send the Insignias.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10407
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 09:53 am:

.

Thanks, Rick. I'll think on this. I'd like to hear the Spendors but there is no rush on my part. I've got a pretty full platter of other projects that aren't giving me much listening time right now. However, if you're thinking of selling the speakers, then I'll push the schedule a bit.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4677
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 11:15 am:

Jan, I recall the "LS3/5a wannabe" review in HFN a couple of years ago. The Spendor L3/5 was near the top of the six current models reviewed, but none came near the original, they thought, and I think I remember that it was the early Rogers incarnation that was their reference.

They also thought there was a suffient number of NOS KEF drivers for it to be feasible for a maker to manufacture a limited number of the genuine article.

See also post of July 26 2004 on
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/61479.html

Richard Allan states that it makes new LS3/5a speakers...
http://www.richardallanaudio.com/ls35a.new/index.htm

....and refurbishes, and supplies parts, for old ones.
http://www.richardallanaudio.com/reconelab.new/index.htm

Gold Member

Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7263
Registered: Dec-04

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 11:52 am:

The page from Allen states 83db and 11 ohms.
Is the Rogers 11 ohms or 16ohms?

Gold Member

Username: John_a

London
U.K.

Post Number: 4678
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:48 pm:

Hi, Nuck.

11 Ohms according to

http://www.richardallanaudio.com/ls35a.new/specs.htm

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10413
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 01:31 pm:

.

Both 15 and 11 Ohm versions are BBC designs of the same speaker. The 3/5a began life as a 15-16 Ohm speaker in the mid 1970's. It had a minor revision in the mid 1980's which was the result of KEF's production slightly drifting from the original spec so that an increasing number of drivers were being rejected for the 3/5a. Not too difficult to do over the more than almost two decades from the original design, particularly considering the direction KEF took in the late '80's. The original speaker was made from hand matched pairs with a ladder type resistor network to trim the frequency response. The 15 Ohm versions all had X-overs built by KEF to BBC specs. When the new surround was in place on the "revised" B110(b) low frequency driver, the X-over was made an 11 Ohm spec, the resistor ladder was eliminated and the X-overs were then built by the individual manufacturers. A bi-wiring option was included a few years later. Opinions vary as to which 3/5a is "best" though any speaker labeled as LS3/5a had to meet the BBC spec of single speaker drop in performance with any other single 3/5a manufactured from day one of the model. So, even the "worst" 3/5a is not very far from the best speaker of the variety.

John, there were a few "references" in the original 3/5a "shootout" which Kessler performed in 2001. A single pair of original 3/5a's, BBC 001 & 002, were included in the mix. The results were not nearly as interesting as the comments. Until the final production run of the 3/5a, the cabinets were hand assembled, lossy and quite unlike what we accept today as normal for a high performance speaker. From experience I know that a bit too much or too litle tightness on the front baffle screws and driver screws makes for a very different sound quality. Living with the 3/5a is a bit like living with Bendix side draft carburetors. "If I want a bit faster bottom end response, I tighten this screw this much and, if I want a cleaner finish to the top end, ... "

As I said, I'm not unhappy with the Rogers. I listened last night and still find the speakers to be more than satisfactory for my needs. And I continue to tweak a bit more performance here and there. I did some room treatment the other day and played with placement to accomodate the new "walls" and things are sounding fine to me.

I was interested in the new models more to hear what the new clones are all about. Is this like Michael Keaton's "Mulitplicity" where each new clone gets further away from the original? Or is the line of descendancy true and improving with experience? I mostly wanted to assess what has transpired in the last thirty years to a design which everyone agrees can sound very much like the real thing within the limits of a shoe box sized speaker.

I've visited Allan's web page and his services are neither cheap nor easily available from the US. The question certainly would be what the 3/5a's are truly worth should repairs be needed. It is similar to repairing a classic anything, particularly when new parts are not being manufactured. "NOS" tends to be out of my price range in either tubes or drivers and my experience says old is not necessarily better, sometimes just old. (I see the pre amp tubes I bought twenty five years ago for $15@ are now selling for $150@. Not my league at this point. Thankfully, I have another pair in the drawer. I hope to get another fifteen years life out of the next pair. After that, I don't know, I probably won't care nearly as much.) However, when I bought the Rogers almost two decades ago, they were not in the same category of, "This little piece here is going to cost me how much?!!!"

.

Gold Member

Username: Rick_b

Orlando, FL

Post Number: 1431
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 01:36 pm:

Like I said Jan, anytime. I don't think I'll ever part with the S3/5's. They just sound too good to me. Just give me a shout when you want to give a listen.

Platinum Member

Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10415
Registered: May-04

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 01:43 pm:

.

Thanks, Rick.

If anyone is interested in the 3/5a shootout; http://www.g4dcv.co.uk/shootout.html