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Thread: Archive through November 15, 2004 |
    
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 01:34 am: |
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Rick - Tube based usually implies a fairly steep price range. I haven't heard a tube based disc player in the past ten years. Tubes have all but disappeared from the Dallas audio stores. The people that want them will either travel to Noo Yark to buy them or they find what they want on Ebay. Of course I think tubes do wonderful things for any audio signal but the alternatives are out there depending on the price you want to pay. For around $10,000 you can get the Mac transport and DAC.
I thought when Kegger first mentioned a great CD player and then suggested spending $1500 he was kind of off the mark. I see he realizes Great starts at about $5000, for the DAC. $1500 buys you the 1m digital cable to hook it up with.
I'm hoping my Philips will hold out until there are more decisions and evolution in players. The talk I'm hearing is a dedicated CD player may be a thing of the past in a few years. More effort is being placed on getting "great" CD performance from DVD players. And, of course, more formats are looming over the crest.
Depending on what transpires when the Philips finally needs replacing I'll probably look at a used Rega player. I've always enjoyed the sound of their disc players. Like their tables they are very no frills, here's the music sorts. And I feel they will back their product when it needs it, unlike the Sony's and, probably, Philips'. Those are two "good as it needs to be" qualities for me. Particularly when I'm talking disc players.
Though I whole heartedly agree the source is the place to build your system from, I have a hard time with high priced disc players. I think the original Meridian, many years ago, is the last high priced CD player I thought I really would like to own. And how many of them are still working today?
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 01:45 am: |
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For several years I ran a transport and an outboard DAC. Nothing expensive just something that didn't require junking everything when the laser sled went wonkers. After twelve years, the DAC is getting beaten out by the DAC's in the mid priced players I have heard lately. To me, digital means it will be obsolete sooner than I prefer. But, then again, my power amps are forty years old.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 615
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 06:41 am: |
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Jan,
I agree with you regarding the Rega CD players. I am not in the market, but like you say, with digital, you never know when it's going to die. I would probably buy a used Planet off Audiogon. Do you really think in the near future a mid price DVD will give truly great CD sound? I wonder.
You made a remark not long ago that made me smile. You said that some of the best sounding CD's were AAD. I have know that for some time now. Anyone who ever listened to a Mapleshade recording would be hard pressed to argue the opposite. |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 123
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 08:29 am: |
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G-day mates! Rick, I don't "always" agree with Jan, but in the case of the AAD CDs - yes, indeed, they usually DO sound better. (there's that word "better" again!)
I wish I could say that I have heard Mapleshade records, but I have not. Taking your word here - I assume they are analog-recorded, not digital? Think I'd better access their site again.
John A. - yes, a delegation of "buying helpers" would be welcome, sir! Merri and I have a standing method of selecting anything electronic in stores. I go to the rack, and take out a box of, say, a receiver. Then I put down that box and Mer comes over and - while my back is turned - selects another box of the same thing. We take it home. It works.
Now, IF I take home the box I selected, I guarantee that someting wil bee rong wit itt. Happens every time. I think there must be some evil force hovering over my head!
Now - when I order things on the Internet, I don't seem to have as much trouble - guess it's because somebody far away picks out the thing I'm buying? Hmmm. . .
I think the Yamaha folks may be on to something with their newest line of players. They separate the SACD and DVD-A circuits - and allow you to turn off the digital side when you're playing SACDs (analog out). Seems to me that the less interference in the player, the better.
And - a question to all - do most of the CD//dvd players on the market use dual lasers? I know the DVD and CD pit/land sizes are different, but am not sure what effects having separate lasers would do - more accurate? The Yamaha has the dual laser system, BTW.
I read about the new Denon 2910s and the confusion or problems with them, also posted on this forum. Hope they settle out - as I've always heard that the Denon products were some of the best. But - brand new model - who knows?
Again - my offer holds for anybody Stateside who wants a tiny sample of the SST - if you're not laughing me out of the country by now! But hey, guyz-n-galz, I really and truly believe the snak, uh, stuff helps - and Mer agrees. Heck, at this rate I'll be buying someting to Teflon-coat my new Silver member status!
More anon. . .
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 124
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 08:57 am: |
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Well, I'll be danged!
Hey, Rick - you've been talking up the Mapleshade folks for some time, and though I've gone on their site before, your mention of the analog records set me back there again. Well. . .
As I recall you've been quite insistent on the sound "improvements" with such things as points and maple stands - but when I accessed the site, well, sir - I see that Mapleshade is ahead of Walker Audio with its "Silclear" product!
Sounds very much like the "SST" I got - but cheaper. The customer reviews are (as you would expect on a manufacturer's site) rather glowing. Very interesting, this "tweak." I'm surprised you're not using it - or are you, like me, very skeptical about things that "can't work?" Uh-huh.
I'll have to admit that the Mapleshade records, and the way they're made, sound like excellent sonic investments - maybe I'll try a couple.
Meanwhile, it seems that there are even more "tweaks" out there than I imagined. So far, for me anyway, the Vivid and SST work. Hmmm. . .
More anon. . . |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 125
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 09:29 am: |
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All: - Beware the new!
- - - - - - - - - - -
The DualDisc format, with DVD-Audio on one side and CD on the other, are slated to be in shops shortly with a total of 50 titles by the middle of November, continues to keep electronics manufacturers on guard. The situation stems from the DualDisc being slightly thicker than a CD or DVD and might get stuck inside some players. Pioneer Electronics has released the following:
Dear Customer:
Pioneer has become aware that some pre-recorded hybrid discs -- which are referred to as "DualDisc" -- have been released in the market to consumers by some music companies and record labels. These hybrid discs appear to be a bonded combination of DVD on one side of the disc and non-DVD (which may incorrectly be referred to as a CD side) on the other side. Pioneer understands that, although these discs may refer to a CD side, the "non-DVD" side is not compliant with the Compact Disc Digital Audio specification and does not bear the CD logo.
Pioneer recommends that consumers not use "DualDisc" products with any Pioneer products, including CD players, DVD players and recorders, and computer drives until Pioneer has an opportunity to test them. At this point in time, Pioneer does not know whether Pioneer products can safely handle these new hybrid discs, or whether these discs may damage your Pioneer products.
Sony has also sent out dealer notifications about the thicker discs, etc. Stay tuned. . . |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1798
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 09:49 am: |
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JAN:
When I was refering to the $1500 cd player I was talking
the arcam without the outboard dac.
Which performs on par playing a cd as the denon does playing sacd/dvd-a!
____________________________________
JOHN:
A tube dac does not consist of the whole dac being tube based!
The atcual dac's in the box are still solid state
just all power and output stages in a quality tube dac
are tubes! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1799
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 10:28 am: |
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For anyone interested here is an example of a tube dac.
http://www.quadesl.com/dac.shtml |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 616
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 01:56 pm: |
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Larry,
I have been a fan of Mapleshade recordings for years. I have also used several of their products. I swear by their cone points for isolation/vibration control, and I use the Golden Helix speaker wire. I have never used any of the CD treatments or coatings from any maker so I can't comment on them. It's usually a long winter in the Northeast, so I will get around to trying the Pledge treatment first. I think this may be our last winter here. We are seriously considering a move to Florida next spring. We will see. Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 126
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 03:40 pm: |
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Rick: Well, sir, if you want to try the SST, just let me know - it appears to be the same stuff, essentially, as Mapleshade's "Silclear."
Didn't I read on this forum, while I was "gone" that Classical 1, or somebody else, had used the cones and heard no difference? Thought so, but not sure. Like the Vivid and the SST, I have great reservations about cones. But, since both Vivid and SST make a big difference for me, well, I shouldn't take a cynical approach to cones. Exactly what difference(s) do the cones make? Something you can hear, or feel?
And - please - let Merri and me know if there's any information we can supply re Florid-Duh! Or anyway we might be of some help to you. We're always ready to help - though we really only know about Naples, Ft. Myers and Sarasota. That's our "stomping ground," doncha know! Anything on the East Coast, nope, we don't go there - tooooo crowded!
More anon. . . |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 127
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 03:44 pm: |
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Rick: a quick PS to vibration control. Under the CD player I use a "sandwich" of cork, silicone rubber (actually cut-out pieces from a Dr. Scholl's gel pad!), and cork. Sorta like an oreo? I got that idea from Stereophile magazine, and for me, well, it seems to work very well! |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 617
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 04:35 pm: |
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Larry,
All electronic components create internal vibrations that muddy the sound. The brass cones(Mapleshade's choice of material) channels the vibrations out of the component, and it drains to the surface below. I notice a big difference in overall clarity and detail with the cones. I always kept an open mind regarding tweaks. If I hear an audible improvement fine, if not, oh well. I just have a problem with closed minded people who want to tell me I can't possible hear what I just heard.
Thank you and Merri for your kind offer for info. WE are looking at the Tampa area, so we will keep you in the loop as we progress. Cheers! |
Gold Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 1053
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
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"I read about the new Denon 2910s and the confusion or problems with them,"
It's confusion Larry, believe me :-)
And yes, a good universal player will provide the option of shutting down the digital circuits to enable interference free music playback. Isolated chambers and seperate internal sections for audio and video processing is also a benefit as is copper plating, shielding, double layer chassis, protein coated disc trays, low center of gravity motor placement, battleship construction - but still no dang coffee maker :-)
Tweaks:
I am wanting to try Jan's Pledge treatment also but have yet to find the appropriate product. Someone will have it but I'm not that keen to have to go on a shopping center expedition to find it. As for vibration reduction, I know someone who jams squash balls below and on top of components - says it works extremely well. For me it comes down to trying things but not at the cost where the visual impairment factor soars to high. It still irritates me to have our center speaker placed on a chrome stool behind or plasma panel. I'm currently looking for a suitable alternative before having to resort to a very heavy duty wall mount bracket. The things we do in the name of audio.
Wife and I enjoyed a drink or two last night while we listened to our very best recordings in DVD-A and SACD to see if we could declare a winner out of the two in surround/resolution quality. The DVD-A was Donald Fagan's Kamakiriad and the SACD was Steely Dan's Gaucho. The result:
It was a tie - both truly sublime examples.
Rick,
And to think all these years I was blaming the PC and Audio gear for my visual and auric impairment. Those darn huge caj - er - cones :-)
John A
For when you return: I see you just had to leave us with one more acidic drop from your anti-sacd obsession before you left for a break. God, I wish you'd get a grip.
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 128
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 06:30 pm: |
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Rick: I think I see the logic here, but for the life of me I wonder how hard, heavy brass cones can filter vibrations out of a unit and onto the, what, shelf?
But then, sir, I had a devil of a time trying to figger out how a bottle of "car polish" could make CDs sound so much better that my dear wife allowed as how I'd found the Grail! Hmmm. . .
And I hope by my statements that you don't put me in the nay-sayer crowd. As you have read, my friend, I'm out there doing tweaks and trying my best to find - what? - MUSIC. Dat's it. Everything else comes second, so if I buy some crazy stuff and it works and makes better-sounding MUSIC - aha! If you want to challenge me, fine, but Mer and I will still sit back and enjoy our Scotch and our MUSIC - and say that we've come a step or three in the right direction.
Brass cones? (gulp) afraid the price keeps me away from those - at least for now.
My Rantz - well, let's see - good that you and Ms. Rantz enjoy a drink or three, and go "into" the music. Fine there - just so much better than TV! Yep. . .
As to Pledge, Vivid, Alien Joy Juice, etc. - I've finally determined that all you need is a product that cleans off the mold release compound and somehow "clarifies" the plastic layer over the aluminum pit-plate, so that the laser will accurately read start-and-stop points on those little pits!
Pledge may do it - Auric Illuminator may do it - Vivid may do it - and my latest bit of insanity, "Zaino plastic polish and optic enhancer" may do it! Whoa! Yep - been researching, and found a car-polish company that has a product designed to make "optically perfect" ALL plastic - including, we hope, CDs.
Am ordering it - and here Stateside a $12 bottle should do about 3,000 CDs. Hmmm. . . Sounds a little better than $45 Vivid, eh?
Of course, Jan's small-change Pledge may, indeed, do JUST AS WELL - though I've yet to test it. But I shall. . .
Mer and I sat down for "Sundowners" tonight, and, as always, got into some good talk about music, and what I'm doing with the stereo to try to upgrade, etc.
She said that she's so happy that what I've done so far has worked - and that the music sounds better. She's pleased, and I feel good for having tried, and tried again, to please both of us. I value and respect my wife, and that means that I do try to make life a tad better for her, given my limited funds and total lack of talent!!!
Still trying, my friend, and still having fun doing it. And still liking VERY MUCH all the input I get from this forum. Thank you!
BTW - yipeeeee! Amazon (God doubly-bless 'em) shipped the Mahler 2nd today - and I should get it on Monday. Sigh. this is all very exciting to me - and I'll give you running reviews of all that happens - next week.
Of course, we also have house-guests all week, so that may throw a bit of a blop into my plans. Anyway - hoping for the best.
Oh, BTW, I've tried a couple of center speakers. Gave up - they didn't really help very much, as the Onkyo has a special setting that takes from each side and ccreates a "Ghost" center speaker. Pretty cool!!!!
More anon. . . |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 129
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 06:33 pm: |
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PS - Rick: If you are looking in the Tampa area, think "Dunedin" - a neat-oh little town on the Gulf that's clean, pretty crime-free (Tampa and St. Pete are hi-crime) and close to a lot of cultural attractions. Think "kilts" here - it is a Scotch-place, and clean as a whistle. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 08:54 pm: |
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http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/dvd-benchmark-part-6-dvd-audio-11-2001 .html
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 09:05 pm: |
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Have we had this one yet? I simply can't remember.
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/cd-sand.htm?
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 131
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 10:17 pm: |
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JV - as to Jon Risch - I happened on a forum on "Audioholics" in which the resident closed-minded idiots carved up Risch and spit him out. He was trying to side with a woman who was posting regarding Vivid - and the Audioholics folk tore her up, too.
risch is apparently a bit of a maverick - a proponent of "hi-end" cables, and thus the center of a lot of controversy. But I e-mailed him about jitter, and he was very gracious in his reply - saying that there is more jitter (in his opinion) than the manufacturers or test mopes are admitting to. Hmmm. . .don't ask me, I only write here! (grin)
After all of my research, I'm inclined to agree with Risch re the jitter, but not the necessity for $1,000 cables! (can't afford them, anyway)
Jan - any comments on my "tweak" for hopefully stopping vibrations under the CD player? I posted above to Rick about my "oreo" fix. Would seem to me that putting brass under the CD player would increase, rather than decrease, the vibrations? But I'm reading more about the cones, and thus remain open-minded.
amazon shipped the SanFran Mahler 2nd today - so am already salivating! It should arrive about the same time as the Yamaha - could be a most interesting week ahead!
More anon. . . |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1800
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:42 am: |
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I'm thinking of getting one of these! $351 shipped to the us.
With the extra set of rca's as a second out.
http://www.octave-electronics.com/Star/dae2.shtml
I've contacted them and may try it as a passive switcher of sorts.
Plugging the output of my front speakers from the b&k into 1 input
then putting my tube preamp in another with 1 output going to my amps.
That will leave me 1 input and 1 output but give me 2 channel
with the tube preamp and surround from the b&k without having to
switch any cables or devices.
Plus the added gain may be benificial since i'm running 3 amps
from the single outputs!
not to mention what the unit is suppose to do to startwith.
So if this unit is all it's cracked up to be I think I'll be one step closer!
Plus it will solve all my conection conundrems.
If not well I tried it for $350.
Anyone have any oppinions? |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1801
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 01:10 am: |
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JAN: THE FIRST ARTICLE IS PRETTY COOL.
Rather old though, on the bottom says 2001 and no bass management
where now we have it. but besides that very informative!
Thought these quotes were pretty relative to us!
"Some of my audiophile friends consider me to be a bit of a heathen, because I like immersive style surround mixes where I'm placed in the middle of the band. This comes from my youth when I spent many an hour in the middle of the band!"
"As alluded to earlier, I'm a bit unusual in the audiophile community with respect to my enjoyment of surround music. I wonder how many audiophiles realize that for the vast majority of recordings the soundstage and imaging that they so love to talk about is all in the hands of the mixing engineer? There are certainly exceptions, but for the most part this is controlled by a pot on the mixing console.
Between this and my background as a musician, I'm not averse to sounds coming at me from all directions. Last time I checked, this happens in the real world too!"
_________________________________________________
The second one addresses some of what the mod to the pioneer involves.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 02:34 am: |
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"The DAE-2, as with the original, works on the basis that the analogue output stage of many digital sources is unable to source enough current to drive a signal across high-capacitance connecting cables into the low impedance inputs of amps before distorting."
Do you have high capacitance cables? Most cables are not.
"This impedance conversion device maintains"
Sounds like a buffer cicuit. That's a lot of money for a simple buffer. There must be more to it. What do you know about it, and where did you find it?
"Positive side effects include the removal of high frequency harshness from the signal source (via the roll-off effect of the DAE-2's valve input capacitors)"
????????? Roll-off??? Input vavle capacitors???
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1802
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 03:19 am: |
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YES IT IS A TUBE BUFFER!
The following are suppose to be very simular and from what I've
read seems like something I'd like to try.
If it works I have some plans for building them
but I figure for the price I'd rather try one first then spend my time making one.
Octave Electronics DAE-1 and DAE-2
Musical Fidelity X10-D
Soundstage Vacuum One buffer processor
Z-man ASE Audio Signal Enhancer
From there descriptions of what they are suppose to do seems interesting!
And from what I've been able to find the cheepest one is $200.
And they only have 1 input and 1 output with no
input selector or gain control.
This one is $250 but it comes from malasie so $100 shipping.
I figure if anyone of the ones I've seen have the extra features of this one
that would add the extra it costs to get this one shipped.
I really need the extra inputs and gain, the extra output would just
be a bonus.
my cables come from cd player to preamp then from preamp to the
3way box I made to 3 seperate amps. so there very well may be
some capacitance issues and definatly some signal loss.
There is a lot of cabling on just 2 channels.
And I want some type of unit that can be used as a switch box
for multiple preamp's
The added features that one of these seems to do sounds like a good thing.
Basically trying to aid in the dampening of the harshnesss of digital
by running it through a tube stage.
From what I have now answered does it sound like
something I may benefit from?
Givin my particular setup! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1804
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 04:18 am: |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 618
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 06:29 am: |
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Kegger,
Is that the family crest? (LOL!) |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2439
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 08:39 am: |
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Monty Python & the Holy Grail in Lego (2001)
One: A Space Odyssey "The Ultimate Tripe".
BTW Another movie to avoid at all costs; "Troy". |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 08:49 am: |
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Let's see here, it's 4:53 AM and I'm awake. Not wide awake, but awake. This should be a good time to answer some questions. And if you find out what I tell you is wrong, well, you should know better than to trust anyone who is typing answers to hifi questions at 4:54 AM.
Kegger - I'm not sure, but it sounds as if you're thinking of putting this unit after the pre amp. Is that correct? And you're trying to keep signal loss to a minimum by placing it there? And the second objective is to add the switching this unit offers to enable switching between the various amps you want to use at diiferent times. Correct? And the third objective is to tame the high end on the disc player.
The issue of signal loss is mostly dealt with by looking at the input impedance of your power amps against the output impedance of the pre amp. If you are running in the range of 600 Ohms output impedance from the pre amp, you can drive most any cable made to lengths of 100'+ and still have plenty of voltage and the ability to source plenty of current. When you get to the tube amps, they will typically have a slightly higher capacitance than a ss amp; but, the input impedance is also higher and that should ameliorate (try typing that at 5:12 AM!!!) the difference the capacitance makes. The sensitivity of the power amps' inputs is also a factor and often a tube amp, particularly the Dyna's, will have a lower input sensitvity which means less signal loss as a whole. Check the output voltage on the pre amp and if it will output 2V or more you shouldn't be looking at any real amount of signal loss. At least I wouldn't think so. You can find out by running the amps one at a time with a straight wire connection and using your SPL meter to check for level. Reconfigure your system for the three way hook up and check numbers. This isn't the correct way to do this, you should put the outputs through an oscilloscope or, at least a VOM; but, this will give you some idea of where you are at with signal loss.
The capacitance issue is going to be determined mainly by the type of interconnects and the internal wiring of the three way box you constructed. You can find the capacitance per foot of your interconnects by calling the cable maker. How much is too much is relative to what they are running between. The cable folks should be able to guide you with that determination. In general, cables are not very high in capacitance nowdays (unless you get into some very high end designs that go for certain characteristics) because they don't need to be. The problem with high capacitance cables is they will, like a cap in a X-over, roll off frequency response. So they tend to sound dull and act as tone controls. That may not boost sales. The other problem with high capacitance cables is they can send amplifiers into oscillation. That means smoke and that nasty burning electronic component smell that no one likes. That definitely doesn't boost sales. So I doubt that high capacitance is that much of a problem in your cables. The hook up wire you used in the switch box shouldn't add that much if you didn't use some exotic wire.
I would think the unit you are looking at is meant to go between the source and the pre amp and is configured for the typically higher output impedance of a CD player. If so, putting it between the pre amp and power amps may not do what you expect. I'm not catching on to why there is a gain control on this unit. If you read what I read in this literature, they used the unit as a pre amp and then as a buffer.
"first, one as a direct link from source to amp; then, in comparison, the same link was sent to the DAE-2's inputs, and the signal was output, via the second pair of Blue Heaven, into the amp."
That's not very clear to me what was done. The writer seems to be using "the amp" to mean the power amp itself and then to mean the integrated pre amp/power amp. Using the unit as a pre amp would make sense to have a gain control. But I see the potential to overdrive the inputs of a pre amp or power amp. This would be my assumption of why the description reads, "push the knob to max, and you'll hear a more upfront delivery". I'm really unclear on this.
As a switch box it wouldn't seem to be configured the way I would think you need your system hooked up.
" ... the upgraded version comes with three sets of inputs and a set outputs. There's also a spare set of RCA terminals that you can ask Octave to configure as an extra input or output."
So the bottom line on this one is, it depends on whether you want to try it for $350. It is putting another gain stage, buffer, pot, connectors and switch in the signal path. Not to mention the tubes. There is bound to be some sound quality that changes from the addition of all those items. The article keeps talking about "smoothening". That, to me, is code for "it rolls the highs". And "cleaning up of RF noise above 100kHz". That's good - if your system responds to 100kHz. Not your speakers or power amps but your CD outputs and pre amp inputs. Normally there are filters of some sort in both devices that remove signals above a certain point so the unit won't go into oscillation. Again, I just don't know what they are referring to. But they're smart enough to design and build this unit. I'm just smart enough to be awake at 6:07 AM.
I have an old X-10D. The results of using it were mixed across the board. Some people really liked what it did and some didn't. Mine's been back in the closet for years.
If they have a trial period, and you can return it if it doesn't do what you expect, I would say give it a try. That realy is the best I can tell you, Kegger.
Larry - :
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/sblocks1e.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/vibrapodse.html
Tweaks, tweaks, tweaks!!!!! OOOOOOHHHH, my head can start to hurt from tweaks. Not because I don't believe in them; but, because they are often so system dependent. And listener dependent. And vibration control/isolation is right up there with cables as to what will work for you.
What you need to use can often be determined by what you are trying to accomplish. Right tool for the job sort of thing. In the case of vibration control you can be trying to accomplish two different things at the same time. You may want to isolate the device from external vibration from the speakers while at the same time you are wanting to drain vibration generated in the device away from the device itself. How you do those two things is often by using two different methods at the same time.
Your CD player has moving parts inside and not the ones you are probably thinking of right now. The power transformer and the various components that form the electrical system of your player are all vibrating like little bumble bee wings in a hive whenever you turn the player on to listen to music.
What you have been doing with Vivid is reducing the jitter of the signal. That is what you are trying to do with the vibration control devices. As these components vibrate they induce some amount of error readings in the system. Error readings will eventually become "Jitter". They may be small most of the time but they are there. Are they swamped by other problems in any given player is part of the problem with tweaks.
Like the Vibrapods, your gel insoles work to isolate the player from external vibration. That is often the largest source of problematic vibration in a working system. What that type of vibration control doesn't do well is drain away the vibrations that are occurring within the player created by the electronics themself. If anything, soft, squishy things can make the problem worse if they happen to fall at the resonant frequency of the system that is vibrating.
For that you need cones, or something like the foot scrubbers, that can drain the energy away from the player. Cones do drain the energy down from the player into the support structure; and, they act as a one way mechanical diode to allow energy transfer down to the shelf but not up from the shelf. They rely on the fact that only a small portion of the cone (or a ball bearing) is touching the supporting surface. Items like the foot scrubbers are trying to arrest the energy before it can pass in either direction. The same is true of the sand filled boxes that are used as support systems. But neither systen drains the energy the way cones do; instead, they try to suppress it like it was a Black voter in Dade County.
Which one will work best for a given situation is for you to decide. I generally suggest having several types of accessories on hand and giving them a try. The expense of buying something that doesn't work on your system can be eased by trying the various DIY items on the web and in your own conjurings. Most of the accessories that are found in consumer audio come from the world of existing products that are meant for some other purpose. Somebody looked at it and thought it might do what they needed and they tried it out. If it worked and they were ambitious (and could find venture capital) they went to a manufacturer and asked for something that better suited their needs and then put it on the market. But they paid for packaging, distribution and maybe some advertising if not a new Corvette and a trip to the Veneto.
If you try a ball bearing instead of a cone, a tennis ball instead of a Vibrapod or a lamp base on a board instead of a "Little Rock" you can get an idea what might work best for your system. Then you have to decide whether you want to spend some money for an accessory that someone else has tried to tweak beyond your tweak.
One way to determine the worth of most tweaks is to listen to the system for two weeks with the tweak in place (assuming you think it helps); and, then remove the tweak and find out what you hear without the "benefits" of your mind wanting to hear what you just purchased. Too often a tweak will just be different and not better.
Rick - I don't think a mid priced DVD will ever give "great" CD sound. But neither will a mid priced CD player. For the most part I do beleive you will get what you pay for in high end audio. The more you spend (wisely) the better the sound will be. But, as with anything where you are trying to reach for the last little bit that makes it great, the last little bit that makes it great is way more expensive than the bit that makes it really good.
So with the idea that we're not talking $5-10,000 transports and the same for the DAC's, I would say the industry is trying to phase out the deicated CD player. If for no other reason than to represent the DVD player as the new alternative that you must buy. That difference even if there isn't thing.
The efforts to improve CD players is mostly coming from the DVD/information storage devices now. CD has been outdated (in the sense of digital tecnology) since it was introduced and the industry is looking for the next item that can replace what is currently on the market. Since DVD can play CD it would appear the move is to take people away from a dedicated CD player when they need replacement. It will fold into the next concept of formats and convince you the audio market is one of change that means you have to move forward, not stand in one place. As the CD performance of DVD gets better the next wave of formats will move DVD out of the way and so on.
So, yes, I would think in a few years dedicated CD players will disappear from the big box stores just as stereo receivers have today. Will the new format ever be "great"? I'm probably not the person to ask. My amplifiers are forty years old and they still work; my 3/5a's are thirty years old; my turntable and the 6200 are twenty years old; my pre amp and Spicas are fifteen years old; and, still, I can't figure out why I should have to replace my digital source every five years.
It's now 7:16 AM. I'm still awake but have run out of answers. If I've missed anybodie's question, ...
...as they say - anon.
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Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 132
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 09:36 am: |
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Jan V. (yawn) G-day, sir! Went through your links (not the sausage variety) and read your posting three times. Verrrrry interesting.
So - my soft-and-squishy feet may not be doing me any favors? I overlooked the internal vibrations, and sought to isolate the player from other vibrations. Hmmm. . .
Now I think maybe I have to do some more research on these "cone" things. The first thing that turns me off about them is, of course, the price. Gulp. But I have a machinist-friend who could easily take a chunk of 2-inch brass rod and turn it down into a point on one end, flat on the other. Probably do it for about $20. I may have a chat with him. . .
I know Rick is a big-time cone-believer, and you seem to follow suit, Jan. OK - with that as a recommendation, I'm at least doing the serious-thinking bit.
It would, indeed, be wonderful to think that I could keep and use well the stereo gear I'm now in the process of buying - or have recently bought. But I know the CD player will crap out within a few years - and of course, there's no such thing as "repair" these days! The Polk speakers will eventually be replaced by the B & W 705s I really, really want - but can't afford now. And the Onkyo amp will surely give way to something "better" - but don't know how soon.
For years I had a marvelous Carver pre-amp and amplifier - gave me such clear sound that I thought I'd never give it up. But, when we did our insane sailing thang, I gave it up. Miss it. If I ever get a lot of money I'm sure I'll get one of the Sunfire receivers - I like the Carver "sound" that much. Ghia has her Mac-love, I have the soft spot in heart for Carver, warts and all.
OK - Mer's away teaching, so I'm going to try to finish "Vividing" the CD collection today. Then get ready for Tuesday and the new Yamaha. I sure hope it sounds as good as I "think" it will!!
Meanwhile, I'm still trying to figger out why this damned SST makes the difference that Mer is insistent about . . . she obviously hears even more changes than I do. Silver on yer plugs, sir? Well, why not, my good man - after you massage my cones - gently, please!!!!!
More (ahem) anon. . . |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 619
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 11:17 am: |
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Jan,
Thank you for your insight. My CAL CD is now about 10 years old, and still going strong, but who knows when it will die? I quess my qustion is, if you had to replace your CD player right now, which way would you go, and with what?
Larry,
If you could find a machinist to do some cones for you, that would be great. Just keep in mind, the mass of the cones plays an important role. The cones I use (sets of 3 per component) weigh a pound each. These cones are massive. |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 133
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 11:31 am: |
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Rick, et al - A POUND, UH, EACH? as in "Holy Cow, Masked Man!" Well, sir, they ought to do something, then! Whew!
I've been Online researching - and it would appear that "mass" is a critical element in these isolation devices. Walker charges WAY too much for his - $300 plus. The Mapleshades look nicer, and probably ARE nicer. But there are some other, similar products out there, also. I found one that's not as nice-looking, but appears to be about the same - Dayton, for $16.90 for a set of four - on Amazon and elsewhere.
OK - will do more research - and yet I'd still like some more info from you, Rick, as to exactly what the cones did/do for your sound? I'm trying to learn with what I hope is an open mind, sir.
More anon. . . |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1805
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 11:51 am: |
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Jan when you posted at 2:30am I was going to ask why are you still
awake but geez 4:30!
And I appreciate the time you take explaining your thoughts on this!
Well maybe I should start with exactly what I'm looking for.
I want a unit that is basicly passive "some small amount of gain would be nice"
I want at least 3 inputs "selective" and two outs "not selective"
I want it to be tube based and a filtering of sorts to tame brightness/
harshness and maybe add a little "tube sound"
so I again can change tubes to "set my mood so to speak"
OK I don't believe I have either a high capacitance issue or
a large amount of signal loss!
I do believe I have some of each "a little", for one I have to turn the tube
preamp up a little further since I have split the output into 3 and
I am running 12' of cable from the output of the preamp to each amp
not to mention the 2 extra pairs that go to the other amps.
And my system is a little on the bright side so taming of this would
be a good thing in my system "as long as it doesn't go to far"
Hopefully I can control that to some degree with different tubes.
That is why I thought I may benefit from one of these units.
If my system was not bright and I had no need for multiple preamp
inputs, I would not be looking for anything like this.
I have emailed the company to ask if this unit can go in between
the preamp and amp and have been answerd by
"Yes we have people doing that very thing"
And I have asked people online who have the :
Musical Fidelity X10-D and Z-man ASE Audio Signal Enhancer
if they have used their's in this configuration. some have responded with yes
and it seems to work just fine.
Have you tried yours in this configuration?
_____________________________________________________
Remember in the past I ran my preamp outs from my reciever into
my tube preamp and also put a cd player in the other input to my tube preamp.
That way I ran my reciever through the tube preamp but had to
adjust volume on the preamp to get the right signal level and I
could flip the switch on the preamp and have 2channel.
I figure this is a better way to do it. IF IT WORKS THAT IS.
Ok I think I have explained all, any more thoughts?
Maybe I should of put my requirements and what I wanted to address
In my first post aye! Thanks for the input.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1806
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 11:58 am: |
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If all fails and it doesn't work in this configuration
at least I could and probably would use it the way it's mainly intended.
Since most of the reviews I've read on these things say they
work wonders on average cd players.
So I don't believe it would be waisted. HOPEFULLY! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:14 pm: |
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Before I go any further, let me ask this; if you feel your system is on the bright side on all inputs why don't you just put a resistor on the tweeters to pad them down about 1 dB? Is there somewhere else your trying to get to with the sound that a simple fix such as that won't accomplish? You're using a Klipsch tweeter across the front, aren't you?
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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I never placed the X-10D after my pre amp. It has a buffer stage that keeps the impedance at 600 Ohms. I didn't want to mess with that. And the Audible Illusions does not lack for tube sound. I bought the Musical Fidleity piece because of a review it received. I thought I should know what it did and, like you, I thought I would find a use for it.
As I said, the reaction to the X-10D was mixed. Apparently, if I'm to believe the advertisement, Musical Fidelity feels there is a market for a revised version of the X-10D as they have a new unit in their ads. More money, but, of course, improved sound. Maybe it was because my system was obviously a tube based system in its sound that I never got that interested in the X-10D. I tried it on the output of my Pioneer Elite LaserDisc player but it did nothing for me there either. If you want to try my unit before you spend your money on something new, I'll send it to you. No obligations. I'll have to check to make sure it's working. I actually had it out when I got the Dynacos out and I remember it seemed OK then.
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Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 620
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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Larry,
With the cones in place I heard a clarity and a higher resolution of detail over the entire audio range. It was like pulling a veil off the speakers. They seemed to just become more "alive". I have been using the cones for a long time now, and I recently have been experimenting with different speaker stands and placement. I had one cone left over from my speaker stand project, and put it on top of my CD player (upside down) and low and behold, clearer still! I am a believer.............
Cheers! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1807
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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because I want a switchbox for my preamps.
And feel something tube based will do both.
And I can adjust the amount with different tubes.
Plus I want some more "tube sound"
And maybe another tube stage will lesson the digital sound even more.
But mainly I want a tube based switchbox! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1808
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:37 pm: |
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Appreciate the offer Jan but I really want/need a switchbox.
If this thing doesn't do exactly like I hoped I was wondering if I could
modify it to be just a switchbox.
What do you think? I think I probably could.
I really appreciate the offer but I want something with multiple inputs.
A friend of mine has a z-man that I will try shortly. |
Silver Member Username: Larry_r
Naples,
FL
Post Number: 134
Registered: Oct-04
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| Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:41 pm: |
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Rick - well, sir, it appears that you've given the cones a fair test, and have found them to improve the sound to such an extent that you are a staunch proponent of their use.
OK - you and Jan are the only ones I can "squeeze" for some answers, so I think that you've given me enough to keep me going with research, and maybe even to buy some.
Thanks, Rick, and I'll let you know what I decide to do.
More anon . . . |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1809
Registered: | |
