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Thread: Archive through October 25, 2004 |
    
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 463
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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AL,
you wrote: Ghia, I scrolled points for your comments on DSotM but didn't find. Any news on that? Oh, and BTW: when you listen to Hotel California in 2-ch, is the guitar intro on acoustic guitar at much lower volume that in m-ch mix? (Suspect problem in my cabling.)
I did some listening this morning and found that the guitar is noticeably quieter in the stereo track compared to the MC track. In fact, it was much weaker than what I remembered from last week so I did some additional testing. Note: this is the last day I'm doing this....I'm starting to feel like a freak.
Anyway, my notes about Hotel California:
- The title track sounds best in MC. The rest of the album works best in stereo for me. This is a different conclusion that I previously had about DVD-A downmix but I'm sure about the results now. At least until the next test. lol.
- The acoustic guitar track of the title song is noticeably weaker in stereo than MC. But! This is not as noticeable when the Mac is powering everything - which could be why I mentioned before that I hadn't noticed it since I had been listening to it through the Mac at that point. When the NAD was powering the system it was so clearly noticeable it was distracting.
DSTOM. Have to give the edge to surround, after all. It sounded so great through the Mac the other day that I was sure that was all anyone would ever need. But, listened in MC vs stereo again yesterday and concluded this is a recording that improves with MC.
So, the results from this week lead me to believe I will have to figure out a way to buy a MC Mac. So much for trying to simplfy..... |
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Relevant Product Info
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 12:53 pm: |
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Ghia - The answer is quite simple. McIntosh gear has held its value better than the stock market for the past four years. Save, save, save. Then buy Mac MC as a hedge against your retiement accounts being worthless when you retire. Push comes to shove in your old age you can sell the Macs for more than you paid for them. (This will be particularly true if the new owners mess with Mac the way they apparently are going to do to Marantz. The thought of McIntosh and Marantz being owned by the same company must have a few folks rolling in their graves. This is stranger than Chrysler and Mercedes.)
By then we'll all be deaf anyway.
(If you like this idea you might want to also get a piece of Stickley furniture and a 1950's Martin guitar. They appreciate more than McIntosh.)
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1677
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 01:01 pm: |
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ghia I'll bet all you need/want is a vintage 2 channel mac amp.
hook that to your nad reciever to power your fronts
and you'll have your mac 2 channel and surround to boot.
that way it should not cost you an arm and a leg.
you should be able to pick up a vintage mac 2 channel amp for
a reasonable sum and not have to wait to long to get what your after!
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Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 464
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 01:02 pm: |
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Jan,
Thanks for that point. You know, I could sell off some holdings in my Ameritrade account and buy a big Mac system. Hadn't thought of that before. lol |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 01:51 pm: |
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Yo - fellow Dawgs - the rest of the Gypsy Wind story will be on Discoveries within a few minutes. Twenty-two pages long - and won't y'all be glad when you don't have to read about THAT anymore! GRIN |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 02:07 pm: |
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D O N E ! ! ! |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 924
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 07:55 pm: |
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In fact W E L L D O N E ! ! !
Our Larry's a regular ol' sea salt!
If you haven't read or finished Larry's epic sea saga I recommend you do.
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/47070/38578.html
Could our Larry be the next great Floridean author? Will he rank among those greats: James Hall or John Katzenbach. Could Hall's hero Thorn have a new literary rival in Larry Wryter?
Guess we'll just have to wait and see  |
Silver Member Username: Sem
New York
USA
Post Number: 283
Registered: Mar-04
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| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 08:08 pm: |
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John A. said:
quote:"Summertime" was one of those 60s ballads every man and his dog took a crack at, though it is still amusing that the Zombies had a go, too. They must be quite, well, old, by now...?
Hey John, quite old? Hate to tell you this my friend, but they're just a few years older than you and I, I'm guessing. Sorry for that reality slap but someone had to do it.
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Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 10:04 pm: |
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MR - (blush) thank you - UR 2 kind, sir! |
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1683
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 01:11 am: |
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This is basically my speaker setup:
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Classical 1 Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 04:47 am: |
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Well, Larry R, your story was amazing and frightening - and to think that I'm seriously considering a long ocean voyage! You've given me some things to think about seriously, and your writing style is just grand!
I'm moving forward toward ending my "career" at the moment, and meanwhile am happily relaxing and going through my CD collection. Having brought my supply of Vivid with me from Colorado, I'm whiling away Florida hours by happily buffing! (and no, not "in the buff!")
Are we now awaiting Jan V's testing of Vivid? If he's as thorough as he appears to be, it might well be an instructive response. I still want to know if Pledge will do the same thing, as Mr. Vigne suggests.
Kegger - it looks as though you're turning your home into one large "full-immersion" sound palace! Good thing that you don't have a family to work around. That might be awkward.
More later. . . |
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 466
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 11:41 am: |
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LR,
That is an amazing story! It's admirable that you and Merri were willing to take the risk you did to experience a dream. Even though the dream turned into a bit of a nightmare, aren't you glad you did it? Most people get comfortable with their lives but live day to day wondering "is this all there is?" and never even try to live their dreams. I don't know. Maybe the trauma you went through overshadows the experience. But, from my perspective, I admire you both for taking the chance even if it didn't turn out the way you had envisioned. Glad you both lived to tell the tale!
Take care! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2316
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 12:17 pm: |
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Sem,
Re. The Zombies. It was a joke. not a good one, I admit. Remember The Who's "My generation"?
Kegger,
Nice diagram!
Larry,
Will read your tale. You have a real fan club here! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 01:01 pm: |
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Kegger - Have you tried placing both subs on the same side wall, left or right, and angling them across the longest dimension of the room so they are firing at right angles to each other across the room instead of directly at one another? I also got much better results by getting my sub up off the floor. It now sits on top of a record cabinet about 3 1/2' off the floor. It got rid of the lump that muuuushhhhed bass notes with drum.
I hope no one read that Pledge will do exactly the same thing as Vivid. I have used Pledge and found that there is an improvement in sound. As Mr. Walker says, Vivid is not Pledge (well of course it isn't, Mr. Walker; we wouldn't expect you to sell Pledge at 10,000 times its normal price though Pledge plus one ingredient makes it not Pledge) and I would suspect and hope that Vivid will out perform Pledge in a test. We'll see when I get Larry's package. But I would also be interested in other's comments on Pledge before I get rolling along here. There is an antistatic Pledge that I have used and would be interested in other's response to its benefits, if any. I am going to guess that Vivid should have a more thorough cleaning agent and should even remove the Pledge for a second test of 1) nothing done, 2) Pledge and 3) Vivid. I am more interested in how much difference there is between Pledge and Vivid as the price difference for the amount purchased is significant. If Vivid can outperform Pledge by enough of a difference then the small cost of Vivid per disc is well worth the money. If the results are deemed within a small percentage of improvement then a can of Pledge at $3.48 is a bargain too hard to pass up.
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Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 01:21 pm: |
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Jan - yes, my friend, you are correct on all points. I simply "forgot" to buy Pledge when at the store, so I've not had a true test myself. Sigh. Gettin' ole. . .
I read on the Audioholics forum where some chaps are getting "into it" over Vivid on the CD/DVD thread. Apparently there are some real nasty UNbelievers there - but they haven't tried Vivid - just rant against it. Same-oh, same-oh.
I admit that Vivid costs a lot - a very lot - of money. Double sigh. When you get your "care package" (should arrive today) please let us all know soonest what your personal tests reveal.
Classical 1 - thanks for your comments - but I highly recommend that you, too, "follow your dream" and go on that sailing trip! E-mail me some details - I'm always fascinated.
If you do, indeed, retire - well, just keep active! If you don't, you'll soon wish that you had your "day job" back again. It takes about 6 months for the boredom to set in! G R I N |
Bronze Member Username: Ojophile
Toronto,
ON
Post Number: 95
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 04:16 pm: |
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Jan,
Can you please clarify/confirm which particular Pledge product you're using:
http://www.pledge.com
I'm game to this "experiment" and will try it out. I have a few "guinea pig" CD's that I can test.
Thanks in advance,
Don
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2318
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 05:09 pm: |
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Don,
Look for the THX™ certification. |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 06:09 pm: |
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John A. - paging back several postings, I read that you suggest my name "Roderick" is Welsh? Well, I was always told, as I was growing up, that it was German! Hmm. . . Conspiracy here, I fear!
My father's side of the family was, indeed, German and English. The English side's surname was Hartley. The Roderick came from - heck, who knows where? Was there some strange bloke in the woodshed? Stay stewed for the n*udes - er - that is, stay tuned for the news.
Hope that your chillins read the "Gypsy" story, and learn much from it. About such things as "better check out everything you can before you do anything drastic!" GRIN
Jan V. - hoping that you got my package today, and that it is to your liking. Sorry about the small amount of Vivid, but at $45 a pop, I don't spread around this stuff on a regular basis!
Ojo - again, please let me know what you find with the use of Pledge - and hope that you don't damage your precious CDs in the process. I "think" that Pledge will be non-toxic to the discs, but am not sure. I do know that using some auto waxes makes the discs cloud up after a few days' time. Guess it must be the "wax" in the product that is a "baddie?"
Now that the Red Sox have won their battle - wouldn't it be wunnerful if Houston won tonight? Then we'd have a sorta sports version of the national political race on our hands, eh? I mean, Massachusetts against Texas? Read it Boston-Kerry against Houston-Bush? How great a contest can that be????? Merri opines that surely the winner will mirror the election results in November? (I may have to shoot her, after all!)
Awaiting Jan's Vivid test, I remain, humbly, your faithful mope - LR |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 06:43 pm: |
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The correct Pledge:
http://www.pledge.com/family_cleandust.html
Read the rest of the site and you will see that Pledge is essentially a silicone-oil. Similar to WD40 that was used in the early 90's to treat CD's but ran afoul of migration between the disc layers because, unlike Pledge, it will remain viscous for long periods once applied to a surface.
The package from Larry arrived today and was applied to one disc so far. A disc I have been using to audition the Toshiba 4960 so I have heard it many times these past few days. First impression, used on a disc that had been Pledged, would be this is better. More later.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 06:45 pm: |
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The correct Pledge:
http://www.pledge.com/family_cleandust.html
Read the rest of the site and you will see that Pledge is essentially a silicone-oil. Similar to WD40 that was used in the early 90's to treat CD's but ran afoul of migration between the disc layers because, unlike Pledge, it will remain viscous for long periods once applied to a surface.
The package from Larry arrived today and was applied to one disc so far. A disc I have been using to audition the Toshiba 4960 so I have heard it many times these past few days. First impression, used on a disc that had been Pledged, would be this is better. More later.
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Silver Member Username: Arnold_layne
Madrid
Spain
Post Number: 190
Registered: Jun-04
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| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 08:10 pm: |
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Hi doggies,
After a month of dark thoughts about ISP providers and baseball bats, I finally decided to take action. So I wrote'em a letter with some sharply formulated questions. With carbon copy to the press. Having drawn their intention to my e-mail account, I proceeded with a spicy letter to regulatory institution. Then I topped off with a copy of everything, including where to e-mail such stuff, into the ISP's own user forum. 15 minutes later my DSL connection worked like never before. Now, ain't that some coincidence?
Ghia, thank you very, very much for your info on HC and DSoTM. (Looking forward to next weeks review, though ;-)
Mr K.: you have so many speakers, doesn't match with the pic' that Sony stick into their SACD album boxes. There's a recycling plant here in Madrid. Send a couple of speakers to me (the biggies), I'll take care of the disposal ;-).
John, I think Dolby Laboratories still hesitant about orange-flavoured popcorn ;-)
Bye bye for now. When WWW euphoria diminishes I'll try to write a serious post.
AL |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 08:31 pm: |
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Yo, Larry, that's one mean group over on audioholics. They should all join C.C.C.; Cynics Can't Cry. I'll stay here.
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Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 09:52 pm: |
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Jan V. - well, well, my friend - glad the "Care" pkg got there OK. I'm eager (as are we all) to hear the results of your testing.
And yes, the audioholics bunch is pretty raw! I go there sometimes to see what's being talked about, and can't really say that much of their information is of value to me. Bunch of bitchers is what they seem - very immature!
So - Pledge is silicone of some sort - thought it might be. I'm still wary of putting it on any of my CDs - though after you and Ojophile do more testing, I might run it through a couple of cycles and see what happens.
Meanwhile - waiting, waiting. . . . |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1685
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:07 am: |
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john: "Look for the THX™ certification." that's classic lol!
____________________________________
jan:
"Kegger - Have you tried placing both subs on the same side wall, left or right, and angling them across the longest dimension of the room so they are firing at right angles to each other across the room instead of directly at one another? I also got much better results by getting my sub up off the floor. It now sits on top of a record cabinet about 3 1/2' off the floor. It got rid of the lump that muuuushhhhed bass notes with drum."
I have tried several sub placemeants and will try more plus
will take to heart your recomendations.
The sub placemeant in the diagram doesn't do justice of how
the subs are arranged now.
the one up front is firing from 1 side wall to the other
the one in the back is actually moved closer to the couch and firing into it
towards the front of the room.
(not shown in diagram)
sometimes I even have the one on just in front of
the widescreen "dual 12s"
when you need a little extra umph for movies.
I don't know about anyone else but I much prefer front firing
open driver subs over down firing and or port based.
the forward firing sub with exposed driver can have a port but
not the port being the only source of sound meaning
the driver is inside and not exposed.
my feeling on that, is the exposed woofer forward firing driver sounds
more natural more like an instruemeant then just bass.
now granted the down firing sub may give more girth for movies
but does not sound natural to me.
so the way I compensate the girth is use more subs!
all my subs are homemade one is a dual 12 cabinet for a truck
powered by a sub amp.
the other two are old ev 3way cabinets with the tweeter hole plugged
and mid hole tutned into a port tuned to 30hz and
then the cabinets are turned upside down so the woofer is on top. 12" jbl
Then fairly hard rubber feet about 1" tall are added to what
use to be the top for solid floor coupling.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1686
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:08 am: |
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oh yah the other 2 subs are powered by a large crown amp!
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Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 927
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:21 am: |
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Kegger,
How much does it cost you for the coal to keep the power station running in your back yard?
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1687
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:34 am: |
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.................W O W...................
Mundorf cap Supreme Silver in Oil!
http://www.mundorf.com/english/bauteile/frkondensator.htm
I'M DONE!
OH MY GOSH THESE ARE INCREDABLE!
AMAZING!
Just installed a pair of .22uf's in the output of my se-40 amp
"with crappy tubes" and I'M DONE! NO MORE, WOW!
you name it these things got it.
____________________
crisp clean high's with all the air you could ask for.
liquid midrange.
tight bass.
and you hear every little detail and seperation!
I have tried a sh!tload of caps lately and nothing for my
setup comes even close!
not to cheap though, glad I only need 2 in each amp.
$28 each! considering what they do, money well spent.
Now where's that darn prepro so I can hook all this sh!t up!
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1688
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:35 am: |
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RANTZ! WHO CARES! LOL!!! |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 929
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:38 am: |
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Uh Oh - better order more coal first! |
Silver Member Username: Myrantz
Post Number: 930
Registered: Aug-04
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:42 am: |
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Kegger - Go for it my friend - sounds like you've found audio nirvana!
Holy Cow! What's it gonna sound like after using VIVID?????????
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1689
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 01:46 am: |
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lol rantz! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1690
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 02:15 am: |
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GHIA CHECK THIS OUT!
MCINTOSH 250 POWER AMPLIFIER
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D5727263976 |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 03:52 am: |
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Kegger - The reason I suggested the different sub placement was to get the sub working across the longest dimension of the room. It is seldom that I didn't think I got better low end performance when I gave the soundwave those few extra feet to propogate into the room. It will take down some of the room nodes and smooth out the lowest octave. By placing the subs on the same wall, and working across the room, you have them working at roughly 90 degree angles to one another instead of pushing a wave right at the other sub. And I did find much better sound with the sub raised off the floor. It moved closer to the corner but smoothed out response to get a more powerful sound with less confusion when the bottom gets busy. I also have my sub on spikes and find that usually tightens up the bottom vs. rubber feet.
I agree with your preference for front firing subs. Have you ever heard an Isobarik sub system where the driven unit is in the cabinet and its pressure drives a unit that is exposed at the front of the cabinet. Similar to a passive radiator except you have no audible output from the internal driver itself. The air is being driven by the front mounted driver that, because it is driven by pressure instead of voltage, makes a more linear excursion and really cuts the distortion component to almost nonexistent. It is not the most efficient way to make bass but is a different sound than you will find in a front mounted electrically driven sub.
"Holy Cow! What's it gonna sound like after using VIVID????????? "
From what I have heard tonight I would say much better.
I've tried a dozen discs and got the same results on each disc. I played each disc to select one or two cuts that would be the test selections. The music ranged from classical to folk/bluegrass and jazz. Some rock but no hard rock since I seldom listen to anything more radical than The Doors and The Grateful Dead anymore. (Did you know most of those people, if they're still alive, are in their 60's now?! How did that happen?) So those of you that bang your head may not find what I think is a reasonable case for Pledge and Vivid.
Each disc was played several times to get a sense of the "as is" sound. Then it was treated with Pledge as I have been doing. The same disc was treated with Vivid after I'd listened a few times to the Pledge treated disc. I also treated a few discs with just Vivid to make certain I was getting the same results with no Pledge in the middle. The discs that were treated with Pledge became noticeably cleaner when the Vivid was after the Pledge treatment. Each disc was played on the new Toshiba 4960 and the mid priced Philips that I have used for about four years now. Both players are fairly warm and musical, I've never had a complaint of hardness from the system. The amp was the Mac 6200 and the speakers were the Rogers LS3/5a's.
Going from the normal disc to the Pledge treatment was a good size step toward better sound from each disc. Instruments that seemed two dimensional took on a more real sound and feel. Notes that had just laid there on the unteated disc had a more positive integration into the whole and moved the music forward with more sense of pacing. Multiple voices or instruments were more separated into individual components that had a personality of their own instead of just a group of sounds. Bass was more apparent with a fullness that put a bottom on the music even with the 3/5a's. Vocalists had more of a body and the sound of a body; they were not indistinct voices but they came from a person standing in front of the microphone. A chestier sound might be a good way to describe the sound. All instruments and voices had more realism in their sounds. Upright basses and violins were more wooden and drums had more skin. The acoustic around each instrument and the whole was easier to hear. Most importantly the way a note began, especially bowed or plucked sounds, was more defined than the normal disc sound. Inflections were more emphatic. The whole of the music was more emphatic. And the decay of sounds was more believable. Soundstaging and imaging were benefitted some but the overall effect was less on the HiFi aspect and more on the music itself. The performers sounded like they liked each other and liked playing with one another. Atmospheric sounds had a more otherwordly effect that came from further outside the room and could grow much larger when needed. The sound of the space on an anaolg tape had more information in those few seconds before the music began.
When I then treated the same disc with Vivid the improvements were there in spades. Violins and basses had real wooden bodies that resonated with the playing of the music. Attacks and decays were more easily followed. Voices had a person firmly atached but never grew too large, they got smaller and more focused to a point source in space. It would be as if the performer stepped closer to the microphone without increasing the volume. The Vivid made everything more believable and more musical. Sounds had a shine to them without being bright. It gives a "patina" to the recording that is inviting.
The Pledge cost $3.49 and made an audible improvement in the sound. The Vivid cost me nothing thanks to Larry but otherwise is $45 for the small kit. The Vivid claims it will treat about 200 discs which gets its cost down to about $0.25 per disc. The can of Pledge will probably treat well over 1000 discs bringing the cost per disc to less than the cost of electricity to play it. I would give an estimate of Pledge getting you about 80% there and Vivid being the full hand.
From what I heard I would say those who don't think this can work don't bother with either course of action. Just sit where you are and listen to what you already have. Those curious enough to invest in can of Pledge can find out what they percieve after a quick, painless treatment. If you think what you hear is sufficient gain to explore further you can invest in Vivid and get even more benefits. I found no instance where I thought applying the Pledge first hindered the sound once I applied the Vivid.
Pledge and Vivid - their good things!
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1691
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 04:09 am: |
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allright gotta get me some pledge!
anyone better than the rest jan?
well time for me to snore the roof off this place.
later!
more tomorrow peoples.
goodnight johnboy! |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 09:18 am: |
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Whew! JV, I've been holding my breath now for about three days. (exhale, inhale)
Thanks for your even-handed review of not only Vivid, but Pledge as well. From what I read either product will make audible differences.
Now - Jan - you've gotta try Vivid on DVD video discs. REally. If you heard that much difference on CDs, all I can say is that you will be even more impressed when playing movies! But, as I say, don't take my word for it. . .
OK - HEY, GANG - ALL OF YOU - H E L P!
I'm in the midst of serious warfare on several forums at once - here's the gig.
I'm claiming - along with a couple of other people - what Jan claims about Vivid - and meeting stiff resistance from people who haven't and say they will never try it.
They say the laser can't be "enhanced" - that it will either read or not read the disc. I disagree. I think a light-beam that has been altered in some way (such as having blurred reflection?) will lead to major error-correction in the player, and probably degrade the sound quality.
They say that Vivid is "snake oil," and that cleaning the mold release compound off discs will have no effect. Two other posters and I all claim that cleaning a disc is like cleaning a window - the light will come through better.
They say that the laser light (red) is transformed to GREEN light in the polycarbonate layer on the discs, and thus any "tweak" such as green markings on the disc edges are worthless. I don't understand how the red laser light can be transformed half-way down the spectrum by just going through basically clear plastic??? Neither side seems to post any back-up "proof."
I have been called "stupid," a "tool of the illigitimate snake oil industry," "ignorant," and a "person whose reasoning abilities are obviously lacking."
Guess that sort of stuff is what John A. has referred to as "flaming?" Well, I'm carrying around an extra fire extinguisher these days!
Most of the time I go on these forums as an "uninvited guest," so I can skip around and maintain low visibility. I'd hate to see what might happen if these guys got my e-mail address!!
Comments on all of the above from all of you are most welcome - yes, even if you agree with some of the harsh critics!
Aside from that - have a great day/night, depending on where you are. |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 09:46 am: |
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All of ye - here's an interesting link regarding the laser light change in polycarb. It has a whole bunch of replies to page through.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/27787.html |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 10:09 am: |
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Jan V et al - well, now ain't this interesting! Had to go to a competing product to find more information about "how it works." Believe it or challenge it - I'm still learning!
http://www.audience-av.com/accessor.htm |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 10:56 am: |
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John A especially - et al. And then there's this rather fascinating column. Pair this up with the info on laser-read and Vivid's apparent use to help lasers better read start-stop pits and planes on CDs. (see audience-av above)
So - I'm beginning to understand a bit of what's going on with Vivid - and apparently to a lesser extent with Pledge. Working, working!
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.htm |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 02:30 pm: |
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Here is the link for the Pledge I have been using:
http://www.pledge.com/family_cleandust.html
It has no alcohol (that I can detect), no abrasives, no wax, and no solvents (such as lemon oil). It has an anti static benefit so when you are done cleaning the disc pieces of grunge don't jump onto it before it's placed in the player.
The method I found worked best was to use either an athletic sock turned inside out so the terry material is exposed or a foam cosmetic applicator that you can find at any drugstore. I have a piece of rubber that came with Finyl (the first CD enhancer I am aware of, it was sold back in the early 90's) that goes inside the jewel box and supports the disc just slighty above the locking hub in the center. You can place the disc on a Viva paper towel or get the cork that was suggested earlier. With the disc play side up spray a small amount of Pledge over the entire disc and wipe the disc with the foam sponge or sock with a fair amount of force, about what you would use to polish your car. With the Pledge it will not haze as it dries so when you think you've cleaned the disc well take another sock and buff with the same amount of force until you see a nice shine come to the disc surface. There seems to be a bit of an improvement to repeat this step to get all the grunge you can off the disc. It should look visibly more shiny when you are done. Replace and wash the sponge or sock often to avoid contaminating other discs.
Larry - I tried the Vivid on a few DVDs but didn't think there was as much improvement over the Pledge on the discs I used to justify the diference in cost. I'll try a few more before I make a final decision.
The other forum is a group of mean, nasty, razor totin'turds. I'll think you can give them all the evidence you want and they simply will not even try something very simple or cost effective. If that is the case I would say you can lead a horse to water, but .... Personally I would not waste much time on that group of folks who prefer to call someone names instead of thinking or trying something.
The box of Finyl that I pulled out had a white paper on the way the optics are improved and I'll send you a copy if you want but I doubt that will do anything for your case with them. Finyl was billed as an Optical Impedance Matching system. That has always been the problem with the argument for these treatments; the naysayers want to argue digits when the solution you are presenting concerns optics not digits. I don't think you're going to get any where if they won't even try Pledge.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/27625.html
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Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 03:24 pm: |
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JV - so, were your vivid (?) descriptions of things you heard on "tweaked" discs just hype? Or did you really hear major differences? In other words - was y'all a-pullin' our laigs?
We had a more positive experience with DVDs than you did, apparently - but so much depends on the quality of the equipment used! Perhaps my "mid-level" stuff shows more improvement than does "better" gear?
Yes, please send e-mail or whatever your paper on Finyl - always trying to learn new things.
I find Jon Risch to be informed, patient, and willing to actually listen! I've e-mailed him, and the man does seem to try very hard to take a neutral stance unless he has pretty good proof that whatever he's talking about actually works.
So - here we are - and you're telling me that I really need to try Pledge. OK, my friend, I surely will! I've got several CD-R copies of music that I'll use as "guinea pigs" at first, then go to the "real" CDs. UR right - if, in the end, Mr. Walker's product is just over-priced wax or whatever - then I'll laugh it off and consider my expenses and experiments to be learning curves, and little else.
I'm very much "into" research on jitter now, and the more I read the less I think I understand, but am gaining ground!
I'm sorta embarrassed to say that I did follow several people in their "steady" quest - and put a sealed baggie of sand on top-rear of my CD player. Now if I tell you that the sound smoothed our or something, you'll just laugh - so I'm keeping THAT tweak to myself. Will see if Mer can tell any difference! But NO brass cones! GRIN
OH, just one more thing, Jan - thanks for being a worthy adversary when it calls for such, but for listening and reasoning when there is a real debate. I 'preciate that, sir. I think I've learned more about stereo and sound since I first accessed this forum than I ever learned the rest of my life! Thanx to you - and to all who read this - I count on all of you more than you can imagine!
REspectfully, |
Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 05:53 pm: |
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Whoa, dare, cowpersons! Just got an e-mail from the Pledge consumer affairs dept - saying that they do NOT support use of Pledge on CDs or any similar plastic. They say that it is insufficiently tested - but were not specific.
So - there you go! Use it at your discretion, and hope that the company is just being super-cautious to avoid any possible legal problems??
Frankly, from what I read about the product, I tend to disagree - and side with JV on use as a CD polish. As it doesn't leave a (visible) residue it must be OK? Hmmm. . .heck, if his CDs all turn deep pink in a year or so - well. . . |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 08:24 pm: |
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The problem with using a product such as Pledge on CD's is it IS NOT a recommended application for the material. That has never stopped an inveterate HiFi tweaker. When Sam Tellig offered his opinion that WD40 was excellent to treat CD's many rushed to give it a try. It was a matter of anything is worth the effort at that point. CD's had taken over the market and people had rid themselves of their horrid LP collections or couldn't find new vinyl so any hope was grabbed at like a drowning victim goes for a rope. It took about a year for the effects of WD40 to show up and by then it was too late. The silicone product started to migrate between the layers of certain discs and ruined quite a few. The fault appears to be with the manufacture of the discs not the application of the material. Will this also happen with Pledge? I don't know. Anyone who wishes to use Pledge as a CD treatment will have to take that risk on your own. I can only tell you what I heard. The risk of spending $3.49 instead of $45 is the risk you take of not using a product specifically designed for this application.
What I posted as my response to the Pledge and Vivid treatments are exactly what I heard. No more, no less. I would not recommend anyone switch from Vivid to Pledge because Vivid is clearly the superior product. There was not a single disc that I treated with both materials that did not gain in quality after the application of the Vivid. I did not go the other way around and apply Pledge after Vivid. There seemed to be no point; if you have spent the money for Vivid why would you not use it? Pledge is, to me, an acceptable starting point for someone who wants to experiment with treatments and doesn't care to throw $45 at the effort until they are at least convinced an improvement can be achieved. If you hear an improvement with Pledge I would then spend the money for Vivid if only to treat my "best" discs. The improvement that was accomplished by Vivid was enough to convince me it is worth the moey when you figure its cost per disc. It was the difference between the Mac MA6200 solid state and my Mac MC240 tubes. There was a substantial, audible improvement though the former is not that far away from the latter. Bang for the buck is the Pledge and the 6200. The next step that makes a difference is the Vivid and the tubes.
As to the video, I'll try it again. I am not much of a video person. It serves a purpose and that is different from how I use my audio system. Most of my discs that I own are not big splashy blockbusters and most are in black and white ("The Ruling Class", anyone?) and many in mono. It seems a waste to use it on a rented DVD that somone will eventually use as a tire chuck (how else can those scratches be that deep). My video is OK but not the best, I've got a friend that I sold a Pionerr Elite Plasma to so maybe I'll use his system for testing Vivid on video. Actually I always found selling video to be somewhat boring. I could never get over the idea that someone who didn't listen to any live music could tell me that explosions didn't sound right but couldn't see that the announcer's shirt was displayed as an unappealing blue or yellow.
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Larry R Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 09:39 pm: |
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Jan V - Merri says to tell you she's very impressed with your initial "Vivid test" posting. She labeled you articulate and intelligent - so gloat awhile, OK? G R I N
I hope that you didn't think I was challenging your initial reactions - I wasn't - just poking a liddle fun yer way. Your review pretty much parallels my own experience - though it actually goes farther in description. I think you must have heard even more differences than I did. Which is good!
I'm about half-way through my CD collection now, and I think I'll come out with a tad of Vivid left over. Will I buy more? Well - I don't buy very many CDs at the moment, so will probably wait to see if I purchase many new ones.
Many of the SACD discs are already coated with a "Mystery film," and labelled: "do not use any wet solution on this disc." Guess their precious film would come off. Obviously, I don't put Vivid on those!
Anyway, I'm glad I could help you resolve your dilemma over whether Vivid is any good. I'm still surprised that the Walker company doesn't give more of an explanation of Vivid's effects and how it works.
Anybody every heard from "Anonimuss" after his brush-up with Rick? Must have gone to greener pastures somewhere. And what about Rick? No word from him for a long time,either. Still waiting to hear from him the facts regarding C4 and C5.
Away to more reading so that I can finally understand "jitter." Sigh. |
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