Archive through October 17, 2004

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 72
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 12:47 pm:

"Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
Yoo-hoooo...."

Ah, John Lennon, why did you have to die so soon?

(John A / My Rantz, please don't let this "Vivid" thing divide you further. It's just a topic. Let's move on. Raise your glasses, gentlemen, and cheers!)

This Vivid product must be evil! It must be exorcised! Just kidding.

Really, let's move back to the debate over 2-channel stereo and multi-surround. After all, as My Rantz has reminded us, that's the original intent of this thread, isn't it?

I only have 3 DVD-A's so far because of limited selections, prohibitive prices, and an uncertainty on my part to buy more. Here's what I have:

Machine Head - Deep Purple
Chicago II - Chicago
Chicago V - Chicago

All have been remastered into 5.1 very well and present a wider soundstage. The "muddy" sound that marred the LP and CD versions of "Chicago II" is gone at last.

But do I appreciate the clearer, more expansive detail? Do I need to hear the more forward sound of the brass section on the Chicago tracks? Maybe. We all have different listening preferences and expectations. To me, what matters most is that there is no added coloration to the tone of a musical instrument when reproduced and sent to my speakers. In other words, while I appreciate the enhanced clarity of the organ tracks by Jon Lord on "Lazy" on the Machine Head DVD-A, the added sonic value is not in leaps and bounds. That's only my opinion, and a subjective one at that. I have always enjoyed the musical content of these three DVD-A's in their earlier formats: LP, cassette and CD.

Am I content with 2-channel stereo then? The answer is yes, from a musical point of view. Yes, from a sonic perspective, given the growing selection of "remastered" CD's.

Will I pursue the high-rez, multi-channel sound? Yes, but only to the extent where the remastering brings out musical detail that was hitherto buried in the polyphony of tones. So, to me, that applies more to ensemble music (performed by septets, sextets, big bands, orchestras, etc.), because that's where so much detail tends to get lost because of the limitations of the LP and the CD formats. If the rematering efforts only serve to enhance the ambience, then I think I'm content with the improved sound that remastered CDs offer. Musically, that is.

Am I making sense? Just shoot me down if you want. Let me put on my flak jacket first.

OK, I'm ready. Fire.

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 73
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 12:50 pm:

"...particularly when you are all to (sic) slow to see I'm right".

A bit arrogant, isn't it?

Let's just try to respect each other's views and each other's capacity to understand and react to opinions expressed herein.

"Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
Yoo-hoooo...."

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

Rantz - You're right about the right here in the south. But I came from the south part of the north and so I came from a place that was more left than right and found, when I got right down here, that what I thought was right wasn't even right close to being right and so the left side of my brain had to adjust a bit to the right side (which left me with a terrible headache to this day) and I found that what I thought was right wasn't even left down here. That was never so true as when the right took what they felt was rightfully theirs and left many with down right nothing. Then the right decided they wanted more right and less left and started taking the left away from the where the right wanted to be. That left the left rightfully upset so they left the state for awhile. Then when they said all right and came back the left that is right above the left in the lower part of the left/right thing decide they would go to the left and then they left for awhile. After some time being to the left the left said all right let's see if we can get this right. They came back right away but the right really wished to be left alone. They took what, again, they said was rightfully the rights' and left the left with little of nothing, again. The left said that ain't right and started to gather what was left and see if they couldn't make things right again. Right now we are left with a right nasty governor that left his heart in the trash waiting to get his share of what wasn't right for him to leave to the left. Even some of the right are saying he's not right and that he's left those that rightfully need some of what's left to get themselves right. So left is right and the right is more right in Texas but I'm to the left of most of what I find is right down here, naturally, and think that what the right feels is right isn't right at all. I guess that means most everyone thinks they are right whether they are right or not. Which if you're right but not right does that leave you to the left or just left somewhere?

Now does anyone want to discuss copying CD's?

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 872
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

Bang!

Ojo,

Thanks, I've already decided I'm through trying to convince John that the Vivid can't alter the encoded data. After all, the data is on a layer beneath a protective coating and any improvement is only through optic enhancement. See, like John, I had to get my bit in again.

As far as Hi-rez surround goes, I now have about 13 DVD-A's and 10 SACD's. Only a few are disappointing. Some are exceptional. Some of my redbook cd's are excellent also. I can live with both - happily. Prices here for hi-rez are about the same for normal cd's with the exception of a few; like Steely Dan's Gaucho SACD - cost me about $5.00 more than usual for this 38 minutes of audio ecstasy - would have paid more if necessary!

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:09 pm:

"A bit arrogant, isn't it?"

Sir, I'll have you know, I will let you know when I'm being ARROGANT!!! I challenge you to a duel. Meet me at dawn.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1642
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:20 pm:

jan that left me wondering, could that be right?

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:21 pm:

You mean what is right above or what I just left?

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 874
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:25 pm:

Jan,

BRAVO! (Sound of applause and chairs moving to the standing ovation)

But, you left something out, right? Is it right for those who wish to be left? And if no one's left, is anyone right? Well, then everyone would be right and where would that leave John?

Anyhow, it's 3.am - again!

I'd try those jammies with the footsies again, except it's getting too hot for them now. I wonder if I woke Mrs Rantz up she might read me a story.

'night all

'night Johnboy :-)

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1643
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:53 pm:

Jan I'm not sure now, I was, right when i left it though!

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 561
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:56 pm:

Some of us are RIGHT!

You kids should be ashamed of yourselves. I leave you alone for for a day and look at what happens. You are bickering and being mean to each other.

Now, you all say you're sorry, give a big group hug, and take a time out.

NOW GO TO YOUR ROOMS AND LISTEN TO SOME MUSIC!

PS That's an order! LOL.....................

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2276
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 01:57 pm:

My Rantz,

I misunderstood. Where I come from, "glass of water" does not qualify as "a drink". Sorry. My mistake. Now, what'll it be.....?

Jan,

Re Toshiba SACD player, now you're talking. My local dealer has a DVD-V and DVD-A player "own brand" (called "Argon" for some strange reason) for less than about $100 equiv. I saw another "own brand" (I forget what that was called) that looked much the same at a hobby shop, for about $60 equivalent. The battery of RCA sockets on the back would cost more than that if you bought them separately. Who knows of they are not both an NAD T533 under the hood?

I too would have bought that Shostakovich of the strength of the blurb. I bought a Beethoven LP set of the Emerson quartet once, on RCA, I think. The performance was fine, but the recording was so close-miked you could hear every one of them breathing, all the way through. When one of them swallowed or cleared his throat, it was louder than the music. I've got lots of DG LPs and CDs and have never cared for the sound. If I were in DG I'd sack the "Tonmeister". Seems to me the last person you'd give the miking and mixing to is someone who has a deep knowledge and love for the music.

"Am I the only one who listens in stereo?" No, not at all. I do it all the time. Stereo is great.

I am getting behind. I will come back and read the rest of the more recent posts. Larry, if that really is you, and it reads like it, welcome back. Really.

Quickies

MR,

I've already decided I'm through trying to convince John that the Vivid can't alter the encoded data.

I know it can't. I was honestly not even once defending that position. My view is, since it can't do that, how, then, can it work? I was writing about making copy from the "enhanced" playback.... Would the enhancement be burned in the copy, or not? If "yes", then CD is no way to store digital data, because copies you make are different from the original. If "no", then where does the improvement in sound come from....? I, too, see I have failed to explain what I mean; I will go away and think about it, before the nun with the ruler comes back.....

Ojo's post will require further thought, anyway.

But I read "raise your glasses" and I'll drink to that.

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 74
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 02:24 pm:

"Meet me at dawn."

Jan, which time zone?

Seriously, I joined this forum for the sole purpose of learning from people like you and hopefully, be able to contribute a little every now and then.

But you know what, sometimes I have to read and re-read some of your posts because occasionally, I'm one of those who are too slow to understand or follow one's ideas. Call it stup***ty, but I'll take it for what is.

Let's move on, bro. Here's a toast to you.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 03:26 pm:

"Is it right for those who wish to be left?"

Oh, my poor Rantz! Your are so right you are wrong. It is not left to choice. Lefts are born that way. (Not a word from Lynne Cheney, hear?!) Glad I could set you right.

*******

"Who knows of they are not both an NAD T533 under the hood?"

I don't know about the players you have seen, but the Toshiba's shipping weight is a mere 7 lbs. It is costing me $6 to get one shipped here. At that weight they could have just folded it up like an airplane and thrown it to me. I'll let you know. Get ready for the J. Vigne epic review. Now is it air or aire when I'm writing a high class review?

************

"Would the enhancement be burned in the copy, or not?"

Yes, because of less error correction.

"If "yes", then CD is no way to store digital data, because copies you make are different from the original."

And your point is?

" If "no", then where does the improvement in sound come from....?"

I got nothin'!

*********

"Jan, which time zone?"

Greenwich Mean of course.

" I have to read and re-read some of your posts ...."

You too?

**********

"NOW GO TO YOUR ROOMS AND LISTEN TO SOME MUSIC!"

Or what? NNNNYYYYAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1644
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 03:27 pm:

Ojophile: I know quite often on this thread "and others"
it's tough to tell when someone is kidding. I have trouble a lot of times.

but when jan said this:

"I've heard that somewhere before. Except the version I had ended in, "particularly when you are all to slow to see I'm right". Oh, well, probably best left as is. "

I'm pretty sure it was meant jokingly!

but point well taken all the hash slinging can get out of hand
and make friends into enemies.

I for one am glad your with us.
and hope you can forgive some of us for getting out line sometimes.

but most if not all things are said in jest.
you can't take much to serious on this thread.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 03:37 pm:

I sir am deadly serious. I challenge you to a duel!

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 562
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:02 pm:

Jan,

You are not playing well with the other children. Did someone P*E*E* in your Cheerios today?

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:05 pm:

AAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! I hope not, I thought the milk was yellow because of the nanner.

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 563
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:21 pm:

Jan,

I do understand that your honor has been challenged, with you being a southern gentleman and all, but I don't think you can go around dueling with people any more.

Can we find an alternate challange?

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1645
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:28 pm:

linguini noodle whiping?

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 75
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:39 pm:

Dawn? Too early, my friend. I'd rather sleep in. BTW, did you use Pledge or Vivid to clean your pistols for tomorrow's duel?

Kegger, thanks for the advice. But I think this time I need a bullet-proof flak jacket. John A., you got one?

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 76
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:52 pm:

New kick-*ss search engine

www.A9.com

It uses all search engines combined.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 05:19 pm:

"did you use Pledge or Vivid to clean your pistols for tomorrow's duel?"

That I did, sir, that I did. And when we meet at the morow you shall be 1111000000--111110000!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 876
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 06:17 pm:

"Would the enhancement be burned in the copy, or not?"

Yes, because of less error correction.

Uh uh! Non mes amis! Vous ette tres - er - loco, oui?

Where does the enhanced playback come from? If you rub Vivid on the cd it only does something to the coating, Does not change the data - we are all agreed on that - a copy from the original will only copy the data. All the o's and 1's will get stored on a file then get tranferred onto the new disc.

If a treatment was put on the original and enhancement WAS evident, it was because of the optics in that machine reacting to a difference to the surface of the disc - on the coating.

Using the copied disc without the Vivid on the same machine cannot produce the same enhancement because the optic conditions have changed - no vivid on the disc - a difference again on the surface.

Same goes for playing the copied disc on any other piece of equipment. The optic conditions are different with each playback unit.

Now if you used a darn tape recorder well that's a different story isn't it?

So unless you fly over here with your little bottle of vivid and prove me wrong, I'm sticking to my theory which is the right theory and the only right theory and all you arrogant sons of lovely mothers who think you're right can keep stating your cases until you're blue in the face because quite frankly my dears I don't give a damn. And here I am left here being right - again.

Kidding Ojo :-)

And John A - here's a hug.

My, I can hardly get my arms around you.

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 77
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 06:29 pm:

Sacre bleue! Omigod, now they're suggesting group hugs. What is this forum coming to?

1111000000--111110000

Invalid data. Abort. I, repeat, invalid data. Abort. Beeeeeep!

Larry R

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 06:36 pm:

(peek) Oh, oh - they're at it again. But wait, where did everybody go? Sigh. Better stay inside.(click)

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 06:59 pm:

I feel soooooooooooooo tired. No duel, I'm going to shoot myself!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 878
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 07:28 pm:

J.V.

You won't do that. It's not right and you won't be left.

Okay, re the Vivid - and if there are no errors to be corrected? Remember, it was tried on new discs. And how would repaired errors enhance sound quality - error correction only substitutes missing or corrupt data.

And please, before any self extermination do go back to speaker maintenance and give me some of your expert advice instead of the usual cheek.

formerly_Blue_Note

New member

Username: Note_blue

Post Number: 1
Registered: Oct-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 08:09 pm:

"Other than that it leads nowhere, it's really about nothing and everything"

My Rantz, isn't that the reason Seinfeld went on for far too long?

"And you are in the right place at the right time! "

Am I really? :-) Sheez, had I come sooner I could've been hit by a stray bullet! Or perhaps buried in mud (LOL!)

"...to debate the benefits of 2 channel stereo over the benefits of multi-channel hi-rez."

So why don't we go back there then? Sounds like an interesting topic to me.

Regards,

Note_Blue

(formerly Blue Note. I couldn't log in anymore as blue_note, blue note, Blue Note, etc. I had to re-register. Wonder why? Well, I'll leave that to the "digital data" experts. Hmmm... digital data, where have I heard that term before?)

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 78
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 09:08 pm:

John A.,

"Ojo's post will require further thought, anyway."

While you're doing that, I read again your initial post on this thread, first of many archived discussions and the last line that you wrote was:

The answer to whether music sounds better in stereo is simple: it depends on the music.

Amen.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:49 am:

Rantz _ do you really want the error correction explained again? I'll do it if it will help you.

fBN - OK, you start, where do you want to go with this?

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 879
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 02:14 am:

"Rantz _ do you really want the error correction explained again?"

Got it the first time Jan, I still agree with me. Error correction helps to make the result sound/and or look as it should. Not enhanced. It is an event that occurs with or without magic potion so I don't buy it.

If your theory is correct (and I'm not saying your explanation of EC is wrong) then the machines that polish and buff the DVD discs should result in enhanced picture and sound. They don't- they only sound and look as they should. And in reference to your previous remark a while back, these disc polishers do much more than remove a kid's breakfast from the disc. The result looks like a shiny brand new disc.

Avagoodweekend

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2279
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 03:10 am:

I have caught up, just a bit.

Will I pursue the high-rez, multi-channel sound? Yes, but only to the extent where the remastering brings out musical detail that was hitherto buried in the polyphony of tones

That is what it does, Ojo. And consider the benefits when it is not a re-mastering, but a multichannel recording in the first place.

Mrs A returned from town reporting no available stock of blank DVD-R discs, anywhere. Is there a huge and unexpected demand? I have used up the two that came with the computer. Just as an experiment, to see if it could be done, you understand....

Well, it is after dawn, GMT, and I hear no pistol shots. Or shot. That's a relief. I'd hate to see the demise of Jan. I am looking forward to his Toshiba DVD player review (it doesn't say whether it plays CDs - is that taken as read?). Apart from that, I think Jan is the only one who understands my argument about disc treatments. He puts it so well on with ' If "no", then where does the improvement in sound come from....?" ...... I got nothin'! '

I got my gal, I got my song;
Got heaven the whole day long.

"he Toshiba's shipping weight is a mere 7 lbs".... same as the T533. The plot thickens. If you can take it apart and photograph the insides, we could compare with my dissection of the T533. I can send my camera as an e-mail attachment.

"Now is it air or aire when I'm writing a high class review? " It depends on the music. In many cases, the appropriate word is luft.

MR,

If you rub Vivid on the cd it only does something to the coating, Does not change the data - we are all agreed on that - a copy from the original will only copy the data.

So how come the Vivid changes the data going into the DAC, which it must do if you hear any effect, but does not change the data going into the saved file, and to the disc copy? Remember the optical read-out has no idea what you are going to do with the data. It is either improved by polishing the disc, or it is not.

You were offered an explanation of "error correction" and I am not sure it was serious (I agree with Kegger, when is the leg being pulled, here....?). Just to increase the agony, I shall leap in. It is probably siesta time, Saturday, there in the sub-tropics, and about 2 a.m. in Texas.

Error correction

What with being hit with rulers an' all, I think I can understand the unhappy connotations of "error correction" for some of us here, no names, no pack-drill.

Here is a simple analogy.

The Southern Gentleman (SG) feels his honor is impuned by the New Yorker (NY), and challenges him to a duel, at dawn, on Greenwich common. (I know a good pub.... no, it isn't open at dawn).

"Sir, Pistols at 101000 paces". [Converter]

"Two (10) shots only?"

"Agreed, sir"

These are men of honor: each instructs his servant to load a brace (10) of pistols.

It is decided, by lot, that SG will shoot first.

SG takes aim, and fires. The ball passes NY's left ear, and NY is unscathed.

It is NY's turn. He takes aim, and fires. The pistol ball passes about a foot above SG's head. SG is unharmed.

It is SG's second shot. He takes aim, and fires. The ball passes NY's right ear.

Now, without error correction, NY has survived, unharmed. Being a gentleman, he fires into the air; the protagonists shake hands, and retire to the pub, by now open, to discuss Spendors and so forth, quite amicably.

However, with error correction, the trajectory of the two pistol shots from SG is averaged, and so NY is mortally wounded. Right between the eyes. SG, striken with grief, takes NY's second pistol, and turns it on himself.

I feel this tale illustrates the harm that can be done by such devices as error correction, and perhaps also up-sampling.

Concerning hugs, I thank you for the offer, MR, but feel inclined to wait until Ghia returns. This has nothing to do with your ingratitude over the offer of a drink.....

Asimo

Bronze Member

Username: Asimo

Post Number: 29
Registered: Apr-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 04:38 am:

Few months ago I found this forum and was surprised to discover intelligent, experienced and cooperative members that had a wide knowledge about Audio - Video and held interesting discussion about DVD-V, SACD, PCM, DVD-V music, operas and more.
I really do not know what happened but the main items in the forum now are politics, old jokes, dogs business, sausage manufacturing and paint fumes sniffing techniques.
As far as I know similar forums have a moderator that directs the forum to its main stream.
I believe that this forum is not only for English speaking countries born and graduates of Oxford Cambridge or Harvard universities. This massage board supposed to be an international audio discussion board and not a private club.

Larry R
Where are all the operaNutz? I think that you have now one more member from this forum
Did you survive the hurricanes?

Ghia
I was following with much interest your adventures in the multi channels fields to find out if we are having another revolution of the audio world as the stereo 50 years ago.
Unfortunately I was a little confused from your many experiments and also controversial conclusions. The NAD is sometimes for CD player and in other times for a surround receiver.
I have the impression that the real star of your systems is the old stereo MAC It does not surprise me. I think that most of the old stereo amplifiers were designed for pure music listening and many new surround receivers for movies effects.
What about operas or musicals watching? I still believe that stereo DVD -V combination is the best. To have the right impression I recommend you the opera �Porgy and Bess �of Gershwin on PCM stereo,( EMI Glyndebourne Opera 1993 ) I think John A will confirm it.

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 881
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 05:04 am:

Okay everyone I tried. Now John A has declined my offer of a hug and still persists in character assassination by his insistance I was ingrateful over his offer of a drink even though I supplied ample proof that I wasn't.

That's it no more being My Rantz the Nice Guy.

Next topic: Should a male forum member also cross dress when giving an apologetic hug to a fellow male forum member to help appease his phobias?

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 564
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 06:52 am:

John,

A duel between southern gentleman and New Yorker?

Jan,

Did we have any unfinished business?

Asimo,

I always felt that a forum should be shaped by it's members to decide which direction it will go. The "Old Dogs" only ask for one small corner of the forum. Would you deny us this? We never said it was a private club, and any with an open mind and a view or opinion were encouraged to stay. Sir, if you find this thread offensive, or out of the norm then leave. If you care to stay, then by all means do so. Yes sometimes we're silly and other times serious, just like life. Or are you just an XXXX's and 0000's type of guy?

Rantz,

Go ahead, put on that lovely frock. Don't forget the lip gloss.

This is all getting much too tedious................................

Check please..............................

I'm..............................

outta......................................

here!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 883
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 07:37 am:

"Here is a simple analogy."

Well, I can't disagree with that!

Ghia Cabriolet

Silver Member

Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 434
Registered: Apr-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 09:15 am:

Asimo,

Stay tuned. I'm working on a response to you.

Ghia Cabriolet

Silver Member

Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 435
Registered: Apr-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 10:36 am:

Asimo,

Good to hear from you. I find the recent posts surrounding treatments and bits/bytes a little inane myself and, since I deal with that stuff at work, the last thing I want to do is get into the debate in my leisure time. The key is to let the conversation run its course as it will in due time. It usually works its way back to stereo/MC debate. Patience, my friend.

I can understand your confusion of what's going on with my experiments. Here's a breakdown of what I think may be going on:

1. Mac is the star as you have noted. So much of a star that it clearly, IMO, is the only choice I have for an amp from here on out. Even if that means sacrificing multichannel in the short term until I can save enough for MC Mac.

2. NAD amps are excellent. Just don't listen to a Mac and that perspective won't become debatable. I almost feel traitorous that the NAD T763 is on the verge of being put away.

3. NAD CD players are excellent. That is one constant in my testing. I preferred the NAD CD player over Denon's CD when paired with the NAD T763. When the Denon was paired with the T763, redbook CD's sounded like a processing filter had been applied compared to the NAD c541i which had a leaner, purer, more detailed sound. Paired with the NAD T763, the difference was clear to me and the NAD c541i, without question, was the preference. But, the difference between the NAD c541i and Denon was inaudible to me when paired with the Mac. I'm not sure why. They both had a natural musicality when paired with the Mac. In this scenario, I would be happy with either the NAD or Denon for redbook CD's.

4. As maddening and unpredictable as it is, MC results are entirely dependent on the recording, IMO. The past few days, I've been testing the Denon with the Mac with hi-res stereo recordings. If you have never heard the surround recordings, then the hi-res sounds great. But, the following patterns emerged in my testing:

- SACD recordings didn't seem to lose much when listening in stereo vs MC. Particularly, recordings such as Miles Davis, Bucky Pizzarelli, the SFSO/MTT Mahler symphonies. The one SACD recording that did lose value in stereo was Heart "Alive in Seattle". The surround mix on this SACD truly does give a "you are there" experience. In the stereo mix, it just sounds like you're listening to a live recording on a stereo system in your living room.

- DVD-A recordings seem to lose much more definition in stereo vs MC. This was especially evident in recordings such as the Eagles "Hotel California" and Beck "Sea Change" which benefit from the space provided by MC. In stereo, these recordings sounded compressed. The one DVD-A recording that did not lose value in stereo was Buena Vista Social Club which sounds great in either format.

5. Speakers. Paired with the NAD T763, I preferred the Monitor Audio GR10 speakers. And, at first listen, I preferred the MA's with the Mac too. But, in the past week, I've started leaning towards the B&W speakers with the Mac. My theory on this is the Mac offers a deeper soundstage (compared to T763) that the B&W's emphasize better than the MA's. The MA's have a wider range and a tighter bass/mid-range but the B&W's have a more open sound. Paired with the Mac, the B&W's offer a very natural sound that overcomes the MA's broader range and greater detail.

This is really going to suck if I have to replace all my speakers too. lol. We'll see what happens once I get to try out the Spendor speakers. BTW, Rick, I'm saving Van Morrison for that.

So, it should all be clear as mud right now. :-) My position is I still appreciate what MC has to offer but, if forced to chose between the two systems I have right now, the stereo Mac would be the clear choice for me. As it is, I will continue to use both systems but I see the Mac system getting the most use.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2281
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 10:53 am:

Asimo,

Relax. No-one is excluded here, to my knowledge. You also miss your target. That is how confrontations begin. The rebuke you intended is experienced by those who did nothing to justify it, and wonder why they are your target. Their defence might be perceived, by you, as an attack. Your reply.... and so on.

If you are right about the private club, then I, for one, do not qualify. But I am sure it was a mistake. That's OK. We all make those.

I recommend you the opera �Porgy and Bess �of Gershwin on PCM stereo,( EMI Glyndebourne Opera 1993 ) I think John A will confirm it.

I do, unreservedly. The disc I have is 2001, but it is the same, and must be a re-issue. The notes say the performance is based on the 1986-7 Glyndebourne production, moved to Covent Garden in 1992, and the recording of that made in Shepperton, by EMI, immediately after, giving a bigger stage for effects, lighting etc. It is still the original cast, and the Glyndebourne Chorus. Also Simon Rattle, again. Also full marks to the director, Trevor Nunn. The casting is just amazing. The eventual and inevitable confrontation between Crown (Gregg Baker) and Porgy (Williard White) is just one of the most moving and frightening things I have seen - see "confrontation", above; both are defending themselves, and the things they believe in most of all. Everyone should see that production. And it fits perfectly with "stereo rules" even for DVD. I have the CD, too; it is nothing compared with the DVD, imho.

Just to air my prejudices (I think it is allowed), "Porgy" comes from the America I respect and admire so much. Try also "West Side Story". Unfortunately there is also "Hollywood Homicide" which we "watched" last night. Basically a celebration of what fun toys handguns are, plus a few car chases, and cripplingly obvious and unfunny jokes about the stupidity of people who have values of any kind, except money. MR says I get on my high horse from time to time, but I try to tell it like I see it. The comparison with Porgy gives the two ends of the scale, for me.

We have also rented "The Day After Tomorrow" which came out here the day before the day before yesterday; it is true. It has DTS sound and I am first going to tighten any loose screws on the sub, as a precaution. We shall have to decide whether to watch that or a copy (from N. America somewhere, from the language options and NTSC video) of Shrek 2. I keep asking where they get these things, but the tracks seem to be covered. I would honestly rather wait for the official release. Anyway, the ones who like it have already seen it at the cinema. Twice, I think. That's something.

If you would like to get political, Asimo, try That 'British Sound'? - I know from your previous posts that you have views on the original topic there, namely whether different countries produce audio components with characteristic sounds. My last post there was a serious attempt to apply a fire extinguisher after what I do think was an ill-judged remark of Jan's, who had perhaps forgotton that "This massage board supposed to be an international audio discussion board".

It is an international audio discussion board; and there is no membership qualification. That is what makes it so interesting, for me.

I leave space for someone else to choose which joke to make about the typo.....

MR,

I withdraw the offer unless you take off that wig.

Rick,

Please return soon. Cheers.

Arnold Layne

Silver Member

Username: Arnold_layne

Madrid
Spain

Post Number: 180
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 10:57 am:

Ghia, I'm afraid I have to get into polemics here on point 4. Let's start with Eagles - Hotel California on DVD-A. I agree the m-ch mix is an outstanding expansion of the soundstage. It's not like having Eagles in your livingroom, but to take a flight to the studio location. But on the other hand, for an album like Queen - The Game I wouldn't say m-ch adds that much listening experience.

So, now I have run out of DVD-A examples (darn difficult to find'em over here). So I'll move over to SACD. I agree in this format m-ch does not add much for a Bob Dylan or Norah Jones album. But what about Pink Floyd and Peter Gabriel. For me, m-ch SACD gives me the pleasure to appreciate so many more details in complex music.

IMHO, m-ch has clear advantages in any format for some types of music (and listener preferences, of course).

Hasta pronto
AL

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2282
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:05 am:

Ghia,

I missed your last post; mine therefore looks like an interruption. Apologies.

If you have not seen Porgy, take up Asimo's suggestion and get that recording. It is right on target for this thread; it is in stereo. I cannot imagine it being improved by more channels. You could listen with the Mac/B&W. If I recall correctly, Asimo has similar speakers.