Archive through October 15, 2004

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1622
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 11:52 pm:

john just to state i neither believe or disbelieve in the product.

but the way i see it there are only 2 ways the product works "if it does"

1: helps the player play the disk better because it has something on it.

2: alters the content that is on the disk so it sounds different.

in my oppinion if you make a digital copy of a treated disk,save that as
an image then have someone download it and make a disk from the image
then you have left out 50% of the possabilities of the disk doing
what is intended by the manufacturers claim.

you would only have answer #2 answer #1 would still be possability.
to challange answer #1 you would need to play a treated disk for yourself.

that is how i see it.

does that make sense?

Relevant Product Info

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2253
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 11:53 pm:

What I do try to shoot down are things claimed, falsely, to be explanations. This is a good and pleasureable sport, and there is no collateral damage, because real explanations are immune to damage. I am not saying I am any better at this than anyone else; I am just saying it is a good thing, and should be encouraged. If we all had more of a zero-tolerance approach to nonsense, it would surely be a good thing. Apart from knowing whether, and how, CD-treatments worked, we could then redeploy advertisers, priests, fortune tellers, politicians etc. and allow them to make useful contributions to society.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:00 am:

Ano - Just checking, I assumed there was a reason you are anonymuss. Not a word from me, your secret is safe, nothing to tell, couldn't drag it out of me, not me, no, not me, not a word, no,no! None.

Ojo - Whether the difference is detectable is a matter of how someone listens. I am not at all trying to ascribe any special power or talent to myself. Quite often I try a tweak that is supposed to be "jawdropping" and I hear nothing of the sort. So I won't make a claim to have Golden Ears; and, even if I did they are too old now to be much more than brass. The tinnitus has gotten too bad also. I will tell you, with no insult intented, in my 25 years of selling audio every time I had a musician as a client they heard things totally different than I did. I played the classical guitar when I was young but only as a hobby. I was familiar, I thought, with how a musician listens but I never caught on to the professional musicians that came into the shop. So the ears of a musician and the ears of a salesperson seem to be quite a ways apart. I had to hear what I was selling. The musician had to hear what pleased them.

As I said I do not argue digital well. I tried to learn enough to not get totally lost when discussing a CD player or DAC with a EE from one of the local telecom companies. (Though they always seemed to like to argue anything.) But I did not make my living with digital, it was a means to an end for me. But my understanding of digital is as it relates to music is that there are some concerns that are not present in most other forms of digital transfers. First, the signal is generally more complex than most digital requires; and, second, it is taking an analogue signal and repersenting it in digital form that pushes the CD format to limits that most other digital has long ago surpassed. The format for CD as written in 1976 means other forms of digital have long ago become more capable of doing the task with more accuracy. But in the 16 bit format of CD so much of the information is used by nonmusical functions that music reproduction is sometimes in the 12 to 14 bit range. So by the time you are getting to 20kHz the amount of information the system has to work with is rather small and prone to errors due to large (by digital standards) amounts of extrapolation. It shouldn't require too many errors at those levels to begin to shift what the 1's and 0's started as to something that slowly morphs into a close facsimile and then drifts farther and farther away from the original. Depending on the accuracy of the playback and record systems this may take many, many copies; but, drift it will according to the information I was given. So my point was not that one copy won't sound like the original but merely that, when you are talking the limits of CD technology, data are not always data. You can correct me I have no doubt my understanding of digital is not much more advanced than 1 & 0 means on & off.

Will a treatment expose more anomalies? Well, the examples you site are, by many audiophiles, the types of "detail" that brings the music to life. Or at the very least proves they spent enough money on their system. Audiophiles are a strange group that often value the nonmusical signals more than the music itself. Years ago a system that could expose the sound of the subway under Carnegie Hall recordings were the recommended components among the Golden Ears.
So I'm afraid the answer is, yes, the desired effect of these treatments is to make accessible all the information on the disc. It boils down to if you don't want the answer, don't bring up the subject. If you are satisfied with the sound you now have I would tell you to be very careful of what you do to change that sound. Many an audiophile has taken a leap only to find they were much better off where they were.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1623
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:06 am:

also a digital copy of a digital source is an excact copy of the digital
material. their is no degration if you copy it a million times
each copy will be the same,have the same data,sound the same
and install or play just like the original.

also john i understand the need or want to disect something and
find if or how it works.

but many manufacturers are going to give you false reasons
as to why their product works if you can reproduse it easily.

take this thing for instance. if the manufacturer
came accross car wax and found it worked but can
charge a lot more for it because it's an "audio product"
they surely are not going to tell you exactly why or how it
works when you can just go buy turtle wax real cheap and be done.

so sometimes just because a manufacturter hides how they do something
doesn't mean it doesn't work.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:15 am:

"1: helps the player play the disk better because it has something on it."

If you'll read the explanation of the Mapleshade products you will see #1 should read : " ... because it doesn't have something on it and because it has something on it."

***********

"If we all had more of a zero-tolerance approach to nonsense, it would surely be a good thing."

John, really? Nonsense is what makes life interesting. We only allow "advertisers, priests, fortune tellers, politicians etc." to use nonsense because we want to have some fun at their expense. Unfortunately they do get carried away.

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:17 am:

"so sometimes just because a manufacturter hides how they do something
doesn't mean it doesn't work."

I still say we're talking the Sausage Guy.

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 836
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:35 am:

Okay, here is a series of zeros and ones:

00001111000011100001100001

Let's play pretendies and imagine these zeros and ones are the data on a cd.

Now, let's rub some Magic Audio Enhancer on the surface of the cd.

Now, can anyone show us what the zeros and ones look like now?

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1624
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:45 am:

jan:

"Kegger - I've been waiting for you to explain how Budwieser can improve the sound of a disc when you don't apply it to the disc. I seem to remember that was my experience with 18 year old Chivas. But I'm not certain, it all gets rather blurry toward the end of the evening."

well jan i'm no "bud" DRINKER!

After a little Cuervo Gold and fine Columbian Makes music a wonderful thing.
the music is just a little smoother more laid back. then if you want to take that
last edge off the music grab a couple cold labatt's or foster's. after that you can
just melt right into the seat your in and the music just kinda puts you in a trance.
to keep the music sounding just that good you get a sipping glass of good old bourbon!

every 2 hours rotate the bourbon with the beer's!

ohyahputonsomemoremusictoo.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2254
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:52 am:

Guys, guys, I promise I have to go, and it is just warming up. ALso I am out of synch. I was just going to make the same quote as Jan.

Kegger,

As usual, you get down to basics in fewer words than me!

so sometimes just because a manufacturter hides how they do something doesn't mean it doesn't work.

That is correct. But hiding how something works is trying to make sure other people do NOT to understand. Then we have lying about how something works. In between we have bullshit, I suppose - hiding it while hiding the fact that you have hidden it, by being deliberately obscure. That wastes everyone's time and energy. I do not respond well to that.

john just to state i neither believe or disbelieve in the product.

That's where I am, too. But I would like to know. The more I think about it, the less I understand how this stuff works, unless it is cleaning or repairing scratches. Do these guys claim it will still work on a clean, undamaged disc?

As regards the effect, on copies, of having treated the original: I think it just has to be that way, if the stuff works at all. If you can hear a difference, the treatment must have improved the accuracy of reading the files. I can't see why the laser and the photodiode in the computer is any different in principle form the ones in the CD player. So if you get more accurate read-out, you will get a more accurate copy when you write what you have read. And it doesn't matter how you store that copy - written on a disc, written as a file on a magnetic disc, just held in RAM, printed on punch-cards. As we say here from time to time, the file is just a sequence of 1s and 0s. The readout of that sequence is either accurate, or it isn't. The copy is an either an identical sequence, indistinguishable from to the original sequence, or it isn't. When you can write perfect CD-Rs at 32 x speed or whatever, I should think reading them at 1x speed probably leaves little room for tweaks. No-one tells me my computer CD drive reads files from disc incorrectly because of "jitter".

What am I missing here...?!

Anonymuss

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:10 am:

Oof - getting more information here than I wanted! Mr. Vigne - the simple truth is that I stay "anonymuss" because I just don't want to join a group, or be tied down Online in any way. Nothing personal, I assure you, sir - but I've said my piece, and now I'm simply going to disappear off the forum radar. Hope that you all find some way to resolve your Vivid differences!

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2255
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:19 am:

My Rantz did what I was thinking, too....

MR,

The answer is;

00001111000011100001100001

Jan,

You can correct me I have no doubt my understanding of digital is not much more advanced than 1 & 0 means on & off.

My understanding is that that is all there is too it. Basically...

Remember this whole forum is a whole lot of 1s and 0s, too. At a rought guess this entire thread, including all the archives, is going to be just about the same amount of information as one short CD track. The original is sitting on the hard drive of a computer somewhere in the US. None of us loses sleep over the possibility that we misunderstand each other because we are each getting different, corrupted copies of the original. In most cases, digital error-correction means what we get is perfect, or it is nothing. I think that is what my computer is doing when it is "check-summing" but I am not sure. When you get digital break-up it is not subtle - see pixelations and sound breakup on satellite transmission. That's the error-correction doing its best on not enough information, as I understand it, and racking down the resolution to give itself big enough samples to work on. You know your newsreader has not suddenly been reincarnated out of Lego bricks.

I was going to say "doing its best on not enough information" is a bit like evidence for WMD in Iraq poised, targeted at our cities... Sorry, could not resist. But that was no accident, I do believe; I can see a simpler explanation for that. Then, when nice and intelligent people said "hey, I think I can see where the spin came from" they were sacked, persecuted, driven to suicide etc., in perfect accordance with the view that it was no accident.

Somehow I think we all need to be really on the ball about whether signal degradation is by accident or design. And get a big can of Vivid to spray on politicians.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1625
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:21 am:

john all of this I agree on!

" I can't see why the laser and the photodiode in
the computer is any different in principle form the ones in the CD
player. So if you get more accurate read-out, you will get a more
accurate copy when you write what you have read. And it doesn't matter
how you store that copy - written on a disc, written as a file on a
magnetic disc, just held in RAM, printed on punch-cards. As we say
here from time to time, the file is just a sequence of 1s and 0s. The
readout of that sequence is either accurate, or it isn't. The copy is
an either an identical sequence, indistinguishable from to the
original sequence, or it isn't. When you can write perfect CD-Rs at 32
x speed or whatever, I should think reading them at 1x speed probably
leaves little room for tweaks. No-one tells me my computer CD drive
reads files from disc incorrectly because of "jitter"."

you will make an excact copy of the data on the disk.
completely agreed!

but if somehow the fluid/tweak makes the player play it differently
then a copy of the disk makes no difference.

when you copy something the copier reads the data ahead in a buffer
and if it tries to read something it can't read or has a hard time with
keeps trying that section over and over until it gets the info "if it can"
then continues on copying.

so i can't see how a solution put on disk is going to make a difference
in copying unless the disk was messed up to the point where the copier
had troulble and the solution fixed or helped that.

I've been able to rejuvinate cd's that skippped or froze in a player
by copying them because of how the copy process will try many times
to extract the data from bad areas.

so I do see how playing a disk and copying a disk are different.

that's why I lean to the side of "if it does work"
then my feeling is on the playing of the disk with the treatment
on it.

personally that is the only way I can see it work!

I am with you on the not taking things for granted that they work
and want to know how or why!

but stating that it can only be this is where we need to rethink!

many things have more than one explination and some are yet to be proved!

so my believe is just about anything can happen and maybe their is something
we don't know or understand.

I have my strong oppinions about this but i also believe their is a possability.
that putting something on the disk and playing it back could change something.

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2256
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:29 am:

Anonymuss,

You are most welcome here as far as I am concerned. These old dogs have got to know each other well enough to feel comfortable being rude to each other, and I suspect some of us rather enjoy it; I don't think you should take it as more than that. I thank you for opening up the debate. I think. Certainly for stating your view so clearly. The stoplight-and green-marker (should it not be be "golight"?) issue has been discussed before. Vivid is a new one, at least on me.

Sorry to change the subject. Please no-one follow WMD, or we will get nowhere.

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 837
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:30 am:

Correct. The cigar goes to John A.

Now if we make a copy of the said CD, the copy would contain the data:

00001111000011100001100001

Would it not?

Nothing has changed - has it?

Okay then, assuming the Magic Audio Enhancer did improve the sound quality of the original cd, how would it be possible for that enhanced quality to be evident on the copy?

Because, IMHO, if the magic potion did do something to persuade the listener that something positive had occured audiowise, then the only possibility is that the potion did something that only the optics of the play unit could idendify.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1626
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:37 am:

rantz if you read my above post I believe we are thinking the same.

this does not mean we are right or wrong but looks like we come to
the same conclusion.

that if it does work, copying will make no difference
and it may make a difference if put on a disk and played.

I'm not going to say the only possability but to me the most logical!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 838
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:43 am:

Totally Agreed Kegger,

These are our opinions based on our best educated guesses and I accept that most of you guys on this forum are better educated than I.

But education does not always a clear path provide - or is that a clear digital path :-)

Anyway it's a good wholesome debate!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 840
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 02:10 am:

Anonymuss,

Yes, John is right. You must be thick-skinned, be able to take it on the jaw, bounce back with a witty retort, be somewhere between slightly and mid-level mad, have a strong sense of humour and never believe a word of what anyone says. If you can find those attributes within yourself then please feel welcome - 24/7 - there's usually someone on call to lay it back on to you.

Seriously, you can get used to us. It may not happen overnight, but it will happen. If you don't like what you read - just turn the lights off.

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 65
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:56 am:

quote:
...every time I had a musician as a client they heard things totally different than I did.

Jan, I listen to the music primarily, hear the sound, secondarily. I think all musicians do, amateur or professional. And so do most audiophiles. To me, the music matters more than the medium, that's why I can put up with the sonic limitations of earlier recordings.

Here is an interesting article written by the venerable Ian G. Masters. It tells how a musician listens, regardless of the condition of the sound system:

On Listening to that Old Material in the Future

Other articles by Masters:
http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio.shtml

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 66
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:58 am:

quote:
Now if we make a copy of the said CD, the copy would contain the data:

00001111000011100001100001
Would it not?
Nothing has changed - has it?

MyRantz,

That's precisely my point.

Classical 1

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:31 am:

Yawn - - good morning, all - I've got a rather "lazy day" today, so thought I'd check the Old Dogs forum. Good grief! Did I cause all that ruckus to occur? (big grin here)
Won't comment further, except to say that I was interested in "anonymuss" and his green pen experiences. Once used Stoplight, but now may investigate the new Statler (sp?) pens. Maybe the Internet will have more on them?
Mr. Vigne - I escaped from Texas with only a minor scare. Had to "consult" with a young woman on-air reporter who tries very hard to sound like Tom Brokaw. Why, I'll never know.
anyway - got her into the interview room, and we looked at some of her taped reports. Then I began gently probing as to why she wants to sound that way. She claimed it was her "natural" voice. Not! I played back her original audition tape from three years ago - no speech impediments there!
I offered that Mr. Brokaw has a speech impediment, and that copying that will surely lead nowhere (though Mr. Brokaw's replacement, Brian Williams - certainly tries to copy that impediment, also, if you have noticed!)I also commented that Mr. Brokaw will leave the Nightly News show soon - and then what will happen to those who copy his unfortunate speech patterns?
The young woman got quite angry, and said that she was not about to change for some "hired gun" like me.
Well, she then went to the station manager (who hired me) and accused me of s-word harassment and making inappropriate suggestions. Naturally, the manager called me in for a meeting.
What the lady did not realize is that I always set up a tiny camera, hooked to a trusty laptop, and record all sessions - showing both the reporter or anchor, and myself, with sound.
I replayed the session for the manager - and that ended that - as far as I'm concerned. What he wants to do with the lady is his business. I got paid - and drove out of Texas!
Today - a seminar with about a hundred or so students - then tomorrow, on to Illinois and a session with three anchor people who the station manager says "look like three stooges" on the air. From the tapes, I agree, and will have my hands full with "consulting" them!
Oh, well - Siesta Key and my sailboat await at week's end. (early retirement sounds good!)
Good to read that the Vivid is getting a thorough airing-out. I will watch to see if any of you actually try the product.
Sorry about my long-winded "personal" account, but thought it might interest about half of one percent of you? If not - which one of you said "turn out the lights?" Ah, yes, Mr. Rantz! Good advice, sir.
More later. . .

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 557
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:44 am:

Anonymuss,

In reference to your post to Mr. Vigne on 10/12, you stated you served in that "special branch" of the armed forces. Well sir, I truly served in THAT branch from 1966-1972. I believe the explosive you refer to is C4 not C5. Now any real professional would know this, and will give you the benefit of the doubt, that is was a typo, but I truly doubt that as well. I am also sorry I had to make this post, for many on this forum will never think of me the same way again. For some certain questions will be answered, and more will arise. For the record C4 is as harmless as Silly Putty without a detonator. I always preferred mercury switches. I am as sure Mr. Ashcroft doesn't have your folder in hand, as I am about Langley not returning my calls any more.

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1627
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:51 am:

I won't think of you any different rick.

you will be the same d!ck you've allways been!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 842
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:01 am:

Rick,

At ease! I've never been able to think of you in the same way at any time :-)

But, if that's the sort of stuff you once played with, I'm glad you're still around to tell the tale!

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 558
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:02 am:

Thank you Kegger, I wouldn't want anything less from the "Old Dogs". LOL!

Gold Member

Username: John_a

Post Number: 2257
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:45 am:

I agree with MR and Kegger. And Ojophile.

I have just cleaned my computer, but I still read
00001111000011100001100001

Let us suppose Vivid makes it read as
01001111000011100001110001

...and that sounds better for some reason.

Copy that and what do you get?
01001111000011100001110001

So the audible improvement has to be there in the copy.

Rick and Anonymuss,

My personal opinion of you guys goes up, not down. I was going to reply to Jan on the Brecht-Weill song he mentioned a while back; "yep, up to a point". But we should remember, as MR wrote, also a while back, that we seem to live in countries where there is some degree of freedom of speech. That would not be the case without guys who served them. There was not much point in trying to be reasonable with Mr H, for example; it was tried, and didn't work.

Certainly there are some discs whose sonic and musical properties might benefit from application of a controlled amount of C4 or C5, then detonation.

I also suppose that spray-on black paint is a simple treatment that can improve almost any C&W disc, making it read:

00000000000000000000000000

BTW where does electostatic charge come into reading CDs? That is another one I can't understand. The charge might attract dust particles, I suppose, but that's about it, isn't it?

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:59 pm:

As this forum topic has meandered over to the side of "if I believe, it will be so" I'll believe the following.

I thought of Rick as a Republican.
I will now think of Rick differently.
My thinking about Rick has improved.
Rick is now no longer a Republican.

Thinking it so, makes it so.
Or so it seems.

Sem

Silver Member

Username: Sem

New York
USA

Post Number: 277
Registered: Mar-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:36 pm:

John A. said:

quote:
I also suppose that spray-on black paint is a simple treatment that can improve almost any C&W disc, making it read:

00000000000000000000000000

John, how can you possibly put down an entire genre of music that brought us such classic songs as:

Get Your Biscuits In The Oven And Your Buns In Bed
Her Teeth Was Stained, But Her Heart Was Pure
How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away?
I Got In At 2 With a 10, And Woke Up At 10 With a 2
I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You
I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well
I Still Miss You Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better
I'm So miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here
I've Got Tears in My Ears From Lying On My Back While I Cry Over
you
Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head)
You're the Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly
If My Nose Was Running Money, Honey, I'd Blow It All on You
If The Phone Don't Ring, Baby, You'll Know It's Me
Thank God And Greyhound She's Gone

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1628
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 01:58 pm:

jan: my whole point of stating what i felt may have an effect
was to show that john saying to copy a disk and posting for download
would not make sure that the product did not work.

as their may be reasons for it to work that would not be covered
by johns experiment.

that was all. mearly questioning if the material
made a difference during playback only.

I have no idea when or how it may work but thought
johns "it must be so" may be missguided.
so i thought to bring up the question!

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 559
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 02:17 pm:

J.V.

Thank you. I will try to make it easy as to the what is:

A Republican with the free will and spirit to slide left and right as required. One must be very careful not to judge by labels put on them, such as Democrat or Republican. I try to look first into one's mind and heart, to see the real character underneath.

I chose almost 40 years ago to live my life by the code of the ancient Samauri, for reasons most would not understand. The one word that sums it all up for me is honor. I live each day by a simple motto: "Respect all men...Fear no man."

On religion: fundamentally a Buddist.

What the world could always count from me: To lend a hand or a sword to the downtrodden or oppressed.

The three most important things in the world to me: My Country.....My Family....My friends.

On friends: I have chosen them carefully in my lifetime. The ones on this forum are among the ones I value most.

You see, I told you all long ago, I'm a very uncomplicated man. LOL!

J. Vigne

Unregistered guest

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 02:41 pm:

Classical 1 - Sorry to hear you wanted to get out of Texas as soon as possible. On your way out did you see anyone with the bumper sticker - "I'm not a native Texan but I got here as soon as I could"
All I can say is the lady could not have been a native Texan. Texas women do not accuse a man of s-xual h-rrassment. They find them in the parking lot and run over them three times with their Mercedes. Of course, as Molly Ivins says, with the price of gas nowdays, Texas women who want to kill their husbands have to carpool.

**********

"Jan, I listen to the music primarily, hear the sound, secondarily. I think all musicians do, amateur or professional. And so do most audiophiles. To me, the music matters more than the medium, that's why I can put up with the sonic limitations of earlier recordings."

I don't mean to burst a bubble, ojo, but I have come across far too many audiophiles who place the music second and the sound of their system above all else. That has always been what has made "audiophiles" so strange to the measurement only crowd. Like so many hobbies, being an audiophile appeals to the an-l/retentives and obsessive/compulsives. It has long been known that a group of these hobbyists exist who seldom play a recording that is not on someone's published "Best Sound" list and then only one or two songs that were written up in a magazine as having a particular cut that had a particular example of how good your system could sound - or not sound! AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!! Audiophiles are notorious for only knowing what is on one side of the record.
Sam Tellig, in "Stereophile" has been using mono recordings for several years to help him determine the worth of a component. Sam started as "The Audio Cheapskate" but has progressed to reviewing components that would stretch most budgets.
I long ago came to the decision that there were two things that a "better" piece of equipment had to do. One was to make more recordings listenable, not fewer. When you can concentrate on the music and not the sound you have much more fun with why you are spending money. The second improvement was the louder the music played the less I had to shout over it. While live music can get loud enough to necissitate raising my voice it happens with far less frequency than with a sound system.
I worked with several guys who collected acoustic record players and "antique" phonographs. To hear what music sounds like over the simplest playback equipment should make everyone with ears wonder how far along we have come in the last 100 years.
But if there weren't the obsessives in the audio market place there would be fewer manufacturers and that might not be a good thing.

**********

"No-one tells me my computer CD drive reads files from disc incorrectly because of "jitter".

What am I missing here...?!"

The diference between an Audio Nerd and a Computer Nerd.

**********

I am always amazed at the absolute faith that is placed in 1's and 0's. If organized religion could muster this much blind belief the world would be a dangerous place. Oh, wait, one religion has and it is more dangerous. OK, never mind that.

Let me try this *ne m*re time. I'll g* sl*w. The "impr*vement" CD treatments claim is in the ability *f the laser/read system t* d* its j*b m*re accurately. The way that is d*ne is t* clean and sm**th the material that exists between the laser and the di*de. In *ther w*rds the plastic material that f*rms the layer cl*sest t* the laser. Plastic can bend the light s* any impe fection will be magnified by the size of the "gr**ve" being played. With a better reading *f the fisc surface by the read syst m, there will be less err*r c*rrecti*n. Less err*r c*rrecti*n means th e systems d*wnstream will have a better ch ance *f playing the music as it wsa rec*rded. It is alll ab*ut reading the inf*rmation c**rectly and n*t relying *n e r r * r c* recti*n.
Er*r c*rrecti*n is a bad thing by digital music playb ck beliefs. It has n*thing t* d* with c*pies s*unding this way *r that. Reli nce *n a syetem that is using larg amounts *f err*r c*rrecti*n can get thinsg c*nfused. F*r exampl , if I wnat t* read an article that I d*wnl*ad fr*m the web as t*day's New Y*rk Ti es, if I reliy *n large amounts *f err*r c*rrecti*n, h*w can I be ce tain that waht I read is c-----t, er, currnet, uh, current, no, correct?

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1629
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 04:31 pm:

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, N O P E ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 843
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 05:29 pm:

I printed the lower section of Jan's previous post. Then I coated the screen of my monitor with polish and reprinted the same section.

Naturally the result was the same: still as clear as mud!

John A

"Let us suppose Vivid makes it read as
01001111000011100001110001 "

Arh, now your just being silly!

Sem,

That's quite a C&W collection you have podner! a whole lot of twang happenin' there Yee Haa!

Rick,

"served in THAT branch from 1966-1972"

Strewth old mate! Are you really that old? Anyway, I'm feeling downtrodden and oppressed. When can I expect you?

Kegger,

",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, N O P E ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"

Ditto here.

Silver Member

Username: Rick_b

New York
USA

Post Number: 560
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:17 pm:

Rantz,

I believe the branch Anon was referrring to is the US Army Special Forces more commonly known as "Green Berets". The green beret is just the headgear that we wore in Special Forces. Yes, my friend I am that old, soon to be 57 in fact. As far as you being downtrodden and oppressed, I can't buy that for a second. It always sounds like Mrs. Rantz takes very good care of you. However, in a dire emergency, don't hesitate to call. LOL!

Cheers!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 845
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:32 pm:

Rick,

I know of the "Green Berets" - poncie caps maybe [grin], but a very tough and resolute bunch all the same. It says a thousand words about you my friend - many more than could be told by "The Duke."

Agewise, you only four up on me, but the way time flys I might soon surpass you LOL!

And Mrs Rantz - the very best there is!

Gotta go and rub some Vivid on my glasses :-)

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 67
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:39 pm:

...absolute faith that is placed in 1's and 0's

I don't know what you're talking about, Jan. It has nothing to do with faith. The use of the binary system in computers is to simplify processing of data, among other things. But I won't go into that. I'll leave that to IBM, Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, etc. to explain.

But... you've made your point. Well taken.

So have I. That's it for me.

Cheers!

Upload

Don

It's the music, not the medium, that matters.

Arnold Layne

Silver Member

Username: Arnold_layne

Madrid
Spain

Post Number: 176
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:49 pm:

I had some salty peanuts with the beverage. Then I had to change disc. Binary sequence became like this:

010###11##001#1####11100#1

Tried to fix it with a few drops of Bud on a cloth:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Then i remebered that somebody mentioned turtle wax:

//////////////////////////

And all of a sudden I discovered that there is a secret message hidden in the secuence:

Upload
message.bmp (29.8 k)

Odd, isn't it? Could it be a watermark for copy protection?

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 846
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 08:01 pm:

Arnold,

LOL! Good one :-)

Ojophile,

I don't follow that comment of Jan's either. When something just is - and there is no two ways about it - it is not a question of faith - not like one might have in one's old McIntosh.

But, please don't be deterred and ride off into the sunset. Stay and have some fun - even if you think others are getting a too serious. The old dogs are getting on a bit and we need the strength in numbers :-)

Gold Member

Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1630
Registered: Dec-03

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 08:02 pm:

RANTZ "vivid on glasses"

and arnold

great posts guy's lol

john: "I would loan you my flak jacket but it is full of holes."

another good one!

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 847
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 08:05 pm:

"getting a too serious"

Damn - in case of any misconceptions, the missing word is "bit" although not the best choice under the circumstances.

Silver Member

Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 848
Registered: Aug-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 08:09 pm:

Kegger,

I liked that one of John's too! In fact I'm amazed he's still standing :-)

Bronze Member

Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 68
Registered: Jun-04

Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 09:26 pm:

My Rantz,

didyoumisplaceyourglassesagainorwereyouthinkingfasterthanyouweretyping

seemstomeyoumissedsomezerosandonestheretocompleteyoursentence